Campfire Lessons for Leaders with Guest Tony Martignetti | HR 71

I welcome to the podcast HR inside out. I'm your

host, Susan A. And it's my absolute pleasure to be

welcoming author, Tony March. Nettie to be here with us today.

Thank you so much. I'm so thrilled to be

here, Susan.

Me too, that you're here. Hey, a little bit about

you first, if that's okay, yeah. So Tony is the chief inspiration

officer at inspired purpose partners. He's a trusted

advisor, leadership coach and facilitator, a best selling

author, podcast host, and speaker. He brings together over

25 years of business and leadership experience at extreme

curiosity to elevate leaders and to equip them with the tools to

navigate through change and to unlock their true potential.

He's been recognized as one of the top voices in leadership and

by leaders hum as one of the biggest voices in leadership.

Wow. Tony has been a finance and strategy executive who had

experience working with some of the leading life sciences

companies. along his journey. He's also managed small

businesses, and he's run a financial consulting company.

Tony hosts the virtual account for our podcast and he's the

author of both climbing the right mountain, navigating the

journey to an inspired life. And the book we're going to be

delving into today. Campfire lessons for leaders, how

uncovering our past can propel us forward. He has been featured

on in many publications, including Fast Company, Forbes,

life science leader, and CEO today. He earned his MBA degree

from Northeastern University and is a certified professional

coach with training from various coaching institutions and

programs. He lives in Boston, Massachusetts with his wife and

son. He is an adventurer seeker fascinated by nature, art and

architecture, all of which includes in his itinerary

wherever he travels, how exciting. Again, welcome. Thank

you

so much. I feel so welcome already. So my

conversation, and

I'm ready to nestle down and listen to the crack and

pop all of that cap fire. I just I love how you use that. So I'm

excited to delve into your excellent book count for our

lessons for leaders how uncovering our past can propel

us forward. And I have to say that I love that you work as a

chief inspiration officer at inspired purpose partner. So

let's start with that title of yours. It obviously reflects all

of who you are, and and a little bit about the work that you do.

Yeah, thank you for bringing that up.

Because it's one of those titles that people think like, oh, that

sounds nice. But you know, what's the real meaning behind

it? How do you kind of like give yourself that title, I often say

that I have to, I have to earn it every day, I have to earn

that title every day by not only keeping myself inspired, but

other people around me by showing up and being real and

being connected to what lights me up. Because I think

inspiration is about igniting in us something that keeps us you

know, thriving and thinking about what's important in our

lives and what keeps us motivated. So I find when you

are most inspired, you're willing to go that extra mile

and willing to do those things that that others maybe don't

have the energy or the enthusiasm to do. And so, you

know, being the chief inspiration officer, it's about

getting other people to unlock that potential, because I'm

inspiring them to create that next opportunity to see beyond

the horizons of what they think as possible.

I love it. And I know when you're with somebody who

exudes that kind of energy, it really is it affects everybody

in a nice in a good way.

Yes. It was a big caveat around an infection

nowadays.

Oh, my goodness, yes. I'm going to jump right into the

areas of the book that caught my attention. And first, please

tell us more about what you call flash points, the flash points

that happen in our lives and why they are so critically important

for us to be paying attention to let's start there.

Yeah, I mean, this whole concept of flash

points. People often think, oh, an inflection point, a pivot

point, things like that. Sure. It's similar. But the thing with

flash points is there's this connection to well connection to

fire. But there's also a sense of it, it changes you and if you

have this light that goes on and all of a sudden you're there's

an ignition of you going into a new path or or go going into a

new part of your life, and you can no longer go back to the way

things were, you are have now changed irreversibly into

something else because of some events that have transpired. And

oftentimes, these flash points, they they don't necessarily you

don't know them until they've happened. They don't you know,

you don't know them in the moment that are Flashpoint.

Sometimes you only realize it in hindsight, for example, you been

laid off by a, by a job that you've been attaching all your

identity to, and all of a sudden, you realize, like, I

don't want to go back to doing the same work any longer. And

I've realized, this is my moment, a flashpoint moment for

me to take control of my life, and do things that I want, and

light me up. And I'm just using that as an example. But yeah,

flashpoints I've seen in other people's lives or, you know,

being on the verge of, you know, being the darkest moments of

your life or navigating an illness or, you know, losing a

loved one. Any number of those things can be seen as a massive

Flashpoint. And so you don't know what it's going to create

new until it reads it.

Yeah. Oh, and we're going to get into some of the

people some other people's stories from your book. So we're

going to build on that. So thank you. Now, the book is also that

it is about tales of transformation and the tiny

steps that led to the big leaps, and the sharing of stories that

inspire others. It's, it's just such an exciting book. Can you

tell us a little bit about I mean, you have talked to many,

many people, but you have chosen specific stories, and specific

those from specific individuals. How do you How did you make

those choices? Of what to include in your wonderful book?

Thank you. Well, first of all, it was not

easy. Because there's so many amazing people who have been on

the show and great stories have been shared. And and now I'm,

I'm clocking in at about 250, episodes, 250. So far, and I

still feel like the energy is there for me to continue, which

I think is a really cool thing. But the choices that I had to

make were really had to do with, with which ones do I feel, you

know, really tell the story of that particular lesson I was

trying to share. And so I was connecting with the lessons,

which I have 10 lessons in there, and trying to find the

story that really connects with that. And so the choices were

hard, but I had to come up with the ones that know which

resonated the most. But it was so hard and choosing those

stories was was only the beginning. I then had to make

sure that I you know, painstakingly, if you will, the

writing process can be painstaking. Make sure that i i

tell their story in the most delicate and the most honest

way. Because I care deeply about them. I care deeply about the

people who have trusted me with their stories, but also that it

doesn't sugarcoat and it doesn't necessarily put my spin or bias

on your story.

My you chose you chose well. Now through kind of

a goes right through your book where you you talk about

returning to a foundation of what you call your through seat,

three C's. These being curiosity, compassion and

connection. That's what you call part of being grounded

leadership. And I saw that line, right throughout your work. Why

these particular three?

Yeah, well, first of all, there's a there my

values are there three of my most important values, which is,

which is really not why I chose it, per se. But it is

interesting that that how it all came to be. But the interesting

thing about those three C's is that when you think about how

people build relationships, and how people can show up most

powerfully, it's through being compassionate with themselves

and with others, connecting with themselves and with others. So

it's always an internal, external, and through curiosity,

asking of themselves the questions that they most need to

ask, getting curious about the things that they're

experiencing, and then also being curious about others,

their experiences, what's going on for them. So those three C's

in when they work together. They're like a strong force, and

they all reinforce each other. When you're curious and you have

compassion. Then what happens is you're going to you're going to

ask questions, with the with the design err, to want to know more

about how are they feeling about a situation? How are you feeling

about your time at this moment where you're navigating a dark

moment, per se, or we're navigating a challenging period

of your life. And through that you're connecting. They just

they, the three of them just worked so well together in terms

of reinforcing each other. And through it all, they allow us to

become more connected as people.

Well, that's a huge part of empathy. Yeah, yeah.

Then Yeah. And it's so in alignment with being a chief

inspiration officer.

Exactly. Exactly.

You also talk about the challenge of people becoming

trapped in fixed mindsets characterized by thoughts such

as it is what it is, and I've certainly heard that on my own

mouth. And you delve into why it's so important for us to

examine how our beliefs and how our thoughts are shaping those

experiences our own experiences? Can you tell us a little bit

more about or just dive a little deeper?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, we get stuck

in those traps, because of the fact that it's, you know, we

feel like there's we have no agency or no control over how

things are. And the reality is, we have more control than we

think. And when we start to, to reframe that, and turn, you

know, potential obstacles or potential, you know, the things

that are in front of us into an opportunity for us to be able

to, to change things or to create what we don't have. I

talk about it as we create our own worlds through the actions

and the things that we do. And in the context of some of the

people in my in the book, you know, there's no meaning they

don't have experience or see the things in their environment,

they create the environment that they want to see most.

Yeah, thank you. And I'm going to actually turn to

some of those stories. Yeah, starting with an Brennan story

called the title, the power of sharing your story. Now, I

underlined her word central quote, Every day, we all affect

somebody's life, whether we know it or not. Now, as many of our

listeners have people oversight responsibilities as supervisors,

managers, senior executive, I think this is really important

to remember. Yeah, no. And share that one of her blog posts

actually saved one of her readers lives. Yeah. We. And

that sharing is absolutely about being vulnerable. And it isn't

easy. It isn't easy. Those those potential ripples there, they're

critical to consider. Can you share perhaps another quick

story from your book of of how those positive ripples of have

helped someone? Or? Yeah, credit, a good credit a good

tsunami?

Absolutely. I think there's something about

what you just you know, first of all, an story is remarkable. And

I think one of the things about it is that it takes a lot of

courage, a moment of courage to put that out into the world.

When you have something that potentially other people might

say, like, wow, that's a lot left for me to take in. But it

gives other people the opportunity to say, Oh, I

completely get it. And I know that feeling. I've been feeling

that way too. And because you share that it's has feeling not

alone. Another person that comes to mind is Nancy Barrows, who

she she suffered a lot of trauma as a child. She was molested by

her grandfather. And she suffered a lot of trauma. And

she decided at some point after doing a lot of healing on her

own, to share her story bravely. And she created a safe space for

other people to share their stories and to say that, hey,

you know, you're not broken. You know, you are just someone who's

had some trauma that you're dealing with and created a safe

we'll call a brave space. It's how she calls it, a brave space

to show up. And a lot of people who have come in gravitated to

her because of the fact that she's shown the messy side of

her, and she's said it's okay to be messy.

I just read Glennon Doyle's untamed again, another

great example of sharing boldly and courageously and helping

lots of people in the process of doing that. Thank you. Going

back to one of your three C's that one of connection, you note

that we're wired as humans for deeper connection, and it does

indeed bond us and it doesn't exist. virus inspires us to take

action. And it does create a sense of belonging instead of

feeling alone and isolated. As a human resource professional with

the pandemic and the continued impact of the pandemic, working

remotely, is still a bit of a concern for me, and particularly

that sea of connection. What are your thoughts? I know that

there's many people working in a hybrid, which at least is

enabling some of that person to person.

Yeah, I love you bring this up. Because this

is a this is still on the minds of so many people still. And

yeah, sure, if we can get in person at least on occasion,

that's always a plus. Because getting in person allows us to

have the physicality and the the ability to have, you know, the

the chance to, to get to see and interact with people on a face

to face basis, which is very different. You know, for those

who know what it's like. But in a remote setting, it doesn't

mean you can't build connection, you can't have connection, but

you got to make sure that you're doing it intentionally. And I

know that word can be overused, intentional, but here's the

here's what it looks like to create intentional connection

remotely, you have to make sure that it's not just something

bolted on to the side of something else. If you're trying

to say like, Hey, at the beginning of meetings, we're

going to do a check in and such and such and such, and that's

all great, and it's nothing wrong with that. But that

doesn't substitute for the intentional connection you need

to create, by having a separate meeting that allows people to

get to know each other on a deeper level, a way to dig a

little deeper behind the the surface of what's going on. And

doing that from an intentional way. It's about you know, these

ideas of getting to know what is the story that makes up who you

are? And what are the things that make you unique. And I

often jokingly say, the things that make us weird, are what

makes us wonderful. And when we get to explore that, even in a

work setting what people think is like, oh, it's work? Well,

you know, we don't do that at work. But why not? Why not?

Because in work, when we get to know other people's weird stuff,

then we get to know like, we can celebrate that we can actually

come to appreciate that. You know, I had a did a TED talk

called don't check yourself with the door, you know how to bring

your true self to work. And in it, that's what I you know,

uncovered this idea that there's a lot of people who, you know,

they think of their hobbies as something that like, Oh, nobody

cares about that. But when I encouraged some of the leaders I

worked with to share, you know, the little things, it opened the

door for amazing connection. And it was worthwhile.

Oh, it makes such a difference. Yeah, just knowing

how important someone's pet is to them, or knowing the names of

their kids and what their kids are up to. Yes, that's certainly

my experience as well. So thank you. I'm going to take us

through Nancy Barrows story. Now it was titled here is titled

unleashing the brave space within. And that you, you wrote

that Nancy as a keynote speaker that I'm going to quote, again,

aims to inspire and help others discover their true selves by

taking off the social masks they wear, and showing up

authentically and certainly the little bit that you've shared of

Nancy's story, she has done that. Can you explain a little

bit about what what are these social masks? And how why it's

so important for leaders to indeed show up authentically?

Yeah, I mean, it aligns with what I was just

sharing a moment ago, as a sense of like, we feel like we have to

be the person who has it all together, we have to be

polished. And we have to, you know, have it all. We have to

have it all done, especially on social media. You know, when you

think about the people who show up and say, like, look, I've

got, you know, the perfect marriage, I've got the perfect

this perfect disc. And the reality is, nobody is really

believing that nobody's truly believing all that. And so these

masks we put on, they're not going to allow other people to

see us. So the best way for people to see us and to connect

with us is to let all that down. And you can do it at your own

pace and in your own way, and just say, Hey, this is who I am.

And this is what I what I want from you is for you to be who

you are. And when we get truly connected on that level. Then

what happens is we can get real, we can really get to know each

other. I think of the leaders who have shown up in the room

and I've seen this before with my clients but also in my

experience in the corporate world who have tried to be

something that they're not And they they put a lot of pressure

on themselves. And then all sudden they find themselves in

this fatigue state and they let the mask down. And people say,

Well, wait a minute, why are you acting so differently? Because

they're showing up now for, you know, differently than they ever

have. Because they were constantly putting on that mask

of the strong leader or the person who has all the answers.

And the reality is, we don't need that what we want is

someone who's going to be real with us.

I'm sure that wearing those masks also contributes to

some of the burnout that we're seeing. Yeah, no, because you're

being a false person. And a large portion of your, your,

your days. Yeah,

it's, it's exhausting, not and sometimes it

becomes so ingrained in our patterns that we forget we're

even doing it will feel like, Oh, this is just who I am. And

then you you go through that moment, and I'll explain to you

just a little bit of what happened to me, is this ego for

that moment, are always saying like, this isn't, this isn't me,

this isn't who I am. Why do I feel so disconnected? to who I

am? Oh, it's because I've been spending so much time being

someone I'm not. For example, for me being in the world of

trying to be a finance professional, like, you know, I

chose that path. Because everyone goes, I felt like I was

kind of forced into it, where you should be, you should be the

finance person. And that's great. But at the end of the

day, I knew my heart was not 100% into it. And I knew that I

had some longing for something else. I had a missing piece

inside of me that was waiting to come out. So I

laugh as I listened to you. I'm semi retired. And I

remember coming home and being told, you can take the director

and a mask off now please. Not at home. So Oh, yeah. And so

some of its yeah, as you say, the socialization and

expectations and what we think the world is expecting of us. So

really important to be paying attention to that. Yeah. Then

going back to Nancy's story, she I'd also underlined in your

book, that she said, at some point, you have to take your

Face your past, and use it to move forward that if you

continue to avoid it, it will control you and hold you back

from living fully. Can Can you share with us an example perhaps

of where you've seen this happen in your work?

Yes, yeah, I mean, so many places where I've

seen leaders, including myself, who have held on to this idea

that like this is I'm only looking forward and, you know, I

don't want to go back and, and face the demons that are, you

know, that have held me back in the past. And so it's just move

forward. But the reality is, when we look back, and we take a

look at some of the things that we've we've had, that we've

overcome, we realize that that's the gold that allows us to be

more powerful, you know, so I'll use an example. And I'll use an

example from the, from the book, too, which is Michael O'Brien,

you know, this idea that, like he, he was this person who

worked really hard, like, was in the, you know, pharmaceutical

sales industry, you know, you know, really lived the lifestyle

was always happy, making a lot of money. And then all sudden,

he had this like, this, this bike crash, I mean, catastrophic

bike crash, he hit a semi, you know, like a big truck. And it

like, was devastating for him. I mean, he had to have like,

multiple surgeries. And it was really tough on him. And so, but

it had, it had him questioning how he was living, you know, and

it wasn't until the QI healed that he realized that how he was

living was a part of like, what he was stuck in, he was stuck in

that path. And what he wanted to do is change the way that he was

doing some of that. And so now his path was about being more

mindful, actually, you know, leaning into being a mindfulness

coach. And, you know, being someone who helps other people

slow down and be more intentional in their lives,

because that's what he realized about himself is being

intentional. So there's something about that, which I

think always makes me think, if you don't look back at those

things that have changed you at or have created a change in your

life and use them as lessons, then you might just continue on

the same path and say, Okay, well now I'll just continue to

do to find another job, go do that same thing. But instead, he

saw that he wanted to change the way things work. So looking back

allowed him to change his trajectory. Thank

you. Excellent example. Lesson four Are you'd

shared that your book is based on a number of lessons are going

to take us to the lesson titled, failing forward, the art of

navigating setbacks. And I underlined here another key

element of failing forward is experimentation, trying new

things, testing different approaches to achieve your

goals. Can you elaborate further?

Yeah, I mean, we, I think experimentation will

hit a chord with a lot of people who, who are in the scientific

fields, but we all need to be experimenting and trying things.

And don't, you know, we have to embrace the failure along the

way. Because ultimately, there are going to be failures. And

we're going to learn from them. But it's about what we do with

those failures, that allows us to continue to move in the right

direction. And in each one of them builds on on the next step.

So I think it's so such a beautiful way to think about our

navigation through life is, what is the next the next experiment

that I'm willing to take? And at what point will I pivot? You

know, is there a need for me to, to shift from this thing to the

next thing? You know, if I find that, you know, I'm in

marketing, and I like it, but there's, it's not really working

out for me, and I'm not feeling as excited about it. Maybe PR is

the next thing for me. And I need to make quite a little bit

of a shift into PR and try that up.

Yeah, like you with your choosing not to continue

within the financial sector. Yeah. I gotta go to Lesson

Seven, fight for what you believe in. And Dolores Hirshman

story, overcoming self doubt and finding clarity. And I loved her

sharing, and I'm going to quote here, we are happy, we are happy

to drive 60 miles per hour on the highway. All we have is our

car headlights to show us the way. In every second of driving,

the vision is revealed. Every single action reveals the next

action. So true. And really, our vision is limited only with what

is illuminated directly before us. And it is about replacing

fear. Especially outside that illuminated area with curiosity

that that lovely see of your values. And as you note,

everything looks like a challenge when you're middle of

the doubts, but unless we take those steps, we're not going to

get to where we're going.

Yes, yeah. 100% that's, I'm glad you bring

this up. Because I think there's something about that which some

people think, well, you know, you need to have a vision, you

need to have a clear vision of the future. That's what leaders

do. And sure you paint a vision, but it doesn't make it any

easier for you to be able to go through it to to actually take

the steps. The execution of that vision is so requires the

murkiness that we have to navigate the fear and the

uncertainties that we go through. And so that's really

the experience that we have to have, even in pursuit of our

vision. And I think that's where the curiosity is, is comes into

play. So you kind of know, what is this experience? I'm on what

is going to be around the corner, what is going to be the

things that we might see, as we're going through this

journey.

And as I listen to you, I think of how important

connection is on that journey. Yes, you know, just just those

those relationships, those reaching outs, those, you know,

you're not the only one who has walked this path of you know,

who else might be on the journey? Who can you reach out

to to learn from to mentor with, or be a mentor? Yeah, so

important. Yeah,

I couldn't agree more. And, and I always

say, you know, that that's a key marker of success is being able

to ask for help. And to know that you're not alone in this

journey is, it's so important because people think that things

get done by one person working alone, but rarely is it

now, and it goes back to the authenticity too, because

the more people, especially the leaders, have been authentic,

then I think people are much more willing to reach out and to

be be vulnerable and to take that risk, feel that fear and,

and connect in and then we need that with our, you know, the

leaders, people aspiring to be leaders of of Yeah, reaching out

and learning from others experiences. I'm going to now

turn to hell, Greg Gregerson. I hope I'm pronouncing that

correctly. His story the journey of self discovery through the

power of questions and how refers to what he terms is the

question burst that got my attention. Please tell us more

about what is the question first and how, why, how and why can

this be really effective?

Well, first of all, I'll just say how was

amazing guy is because I've been such a big fan of his for a long

time. But, you know, when he, when I've looked at his journey,

I then realize why he was such a big fan of questions, because he

was, you know, always questioning, you know, having to

build up these questions along the way about like, how do I

please that my father, how do I, you know, kind of make sure that

I show up in the right way. And, and these question bursts came

from his work with a lot of these leaders along the way

that, you know, helped him to think about how to explore

issues in the most profound way. So the question Question bars

are really about, like, you know, bringing in these

brainstorming effects to problem and, you know, not stopping at

just the first thing that shows up, we have to go deeper, we're

so quick to close the aperture and the camera and say, okay,

you know, we're done, we took the picture, we're done. But

instead, we gotta widen it out. And we need to make sure that we

stay a little bit wider for longer, so that we can have more

perspectives go a little deeper, and allow ourselves to get to

have more questions. As opposed to go right to the answer.

Yeah, we don't have to have the answer right away.

Excellent. Thank you. And I'm going to remember those question

bursts. I love love. I love the term. Now, Jeffrey Shaw, in his

story, the path to a sustainable and fulfilling and

entrepreneurial life. I underlined something that came

into your mind as you interviewed him. The idea and I

think that's really takes us from the last question, the idea

of slowing down to go fast.

Yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting how,

especially with Jeff, Jeffrey Shaw, I call them Jeff. So he,

he really had me thinking about this, because he had a moment

where he was sitting back in, in his Adirondack chair in

Connecticut and selling his house. And he reflected on, you

know, some of the things that were going on in his life. And

he had been on an amazing journey. He's been, you know,

one of the most sought after photographers in the industry.

And yet, you know, here he was thinking about, you know, what's

next? What's the next thing he's gonna lean into? And I think

it's so important for us to sometimes step back and say,

what is it that, you know, I'm being I'm forcing myself into

how can I slow down and think differently about the approach

I'm taking, because if we're constantly in the Go mode,

constantly trying to, to achieve that next level and forcing

ourselves, then we're not really going to be able to be in the

most powerful mindset for us, slowing down allows us to think,

be intentional, and allow us to connect with what's most

important to us, so that we can then move forward in the most

powerful way.

I think it's really important for our listeners to

hear that, because certainly my experience working as a

consultant is that it's becoming more and more difficult to make

that time, you know, that the expectations on people, it's

just more and more more and more and more. And we have to make

that time that being in the moment, sitting in that are on

deck chair, around that campfire. Yeah. And and and

taking that time to consider the ripples of consider the next

steps. Yeah. So

yeah, one of the things that I'll just share

as an add on to that as to say, you know, it's the patterns that

we get stuck in. I mean, I've often say that I'm a pattern

breaker, because I help people to think what is a pattern that

I am in? That's not serving me? And, and where do I need to

break that pattern? Not to say that all patterns are bad. Some

of them are fantastic, and they're there for a good reason.

But we have to sometimes sit back and question, is this a

pattern that I'm stuck in? That has me, you know, in a place

where I'm not even seeing it? So that was what we need to

sometimes question ourselves. And if we're going too fast, we

will not see it. We got to slow down to actually see the matrix.

Yeah, if you know what I mean. Yeah, I

do very much. So thank you. Now in your final

chapter, you share the your hope and writing the book was to

share the wisdom contained in the conversations and to offer a

challenge to your readers. Yes. Now you listed a number of

questions for your readers to reflect on. Now. One of these

was what are your personal flash points? And how have they

changed the course of your life? And that one left me recognizing

the significant importance of how we really again, don't take

the time to do that deep thinking? Any tips on And it is

so critically important. Any tips on what have you found

useful?

Yeah, I mean, one of the first things you can

do, and it's so great that you started with, before we got into

this, this idea of slowing down, you can, you know, think your

way out of this and say, Okay, this is a mental exercise, you

know, get into your heart, and to get into your heart, and you

just slow down and say, Okay, if I, if I really think, you know,

look back into my journey, what were the things that had had my,

my, my emotions come alive, and like my heart come alive, and

you know, the things that have challenged me emotionally. And

those are the things that are the flash points, if it was

something that like, oh, I, I passed the big exam, and that

was like a big deal. Who cares? That's nice. But at the end of

the day, we're talking about those things that have, you

know, shifted your life. And that usually happens in your

emotional state, not just in your mental state.

So any tips for finding that time for for the

harried individuals listening to this podcast? What have you

found like with getting up earlier, just driving somewhere

before you go home to take that, that quiet time? Any any

thoughts?

I do have a thought on this, I have two two

thoughts. Number one is, if you want to have more impact in

general and your life and have this clarity, you know, spending

a half hour to an hour, every Sunday, to do what I call a

weekly spark. What that means is basically giving yourself a

chance to reflect on your past week, and your future week. And

just anything else that you need to deeply think about. But just

make sure that you create a space for that. That means make

sure that there's no interruptions, make sure that

it's just time, quiet time for you to think deeply. Now, I

think, an hour of time to think deeply, once a week, is not

asking too much of yourself. You know, it would be great if you

could do that once a day. But once a week, sitting down and

having some quiet contemplation will allow you to dig deep and

contemplate any question you want to ask yourself, or learn

about yourself or you know, maybe change about the way

things are. So that's one way. The other way is to take a

vacation, take a big vacation. One of the things I've learned

about myself and I've shared with others, is that I even when

I started my business, the first thing I did after being in

business for about a few months, as I took a month off and went

to India. And what was cool about it is that I went with

people I didn't know. And it was going to be a really deep

immersion into a world that didn't know never been to India

before India before. And most people think I was crazy,

because I'm like, you just started a business. Why are you

leaving. But the reality is, by leaving, I actually was able to

get my mind off of the work and spend some time in it with a

fresh perspective. And when I came back, I was able to have a

very different view on how things are. And I did it again.

Two years ago, I went and climbed Kilimanjaro and I was

away for Yeah, it was away for about a month because I did that

and I did a safari. And again, you just have this, like take a

step back. Think where am I? What am I doing the work that

really still lights me up? And all that. And I think there's

something about that, which is to say, even for the most

busiest people every once in a while just taking even a weekend

away. And checking in with yourself.

Yeah, that was thinking just start small. They

can't find an hour find 10 minutes. And if you can't take a

long vacation, get away for a weekend or even a Yeah, a day of

just taking some time. So yeah. And you often are you offer

wisdom and your closing comments like staying grounded. Any other

closing comments, some things perhaps I'm gonna ask you about

before we bring the podcast to a close? Well,

the one thing I'll just share, this is

something that I think is really an important part of this is to

say in the book wasn't the intention when I started the

book was one thing and when I finished the book, I felt like

there was something else that was showing up for me. And that

was about this idea that like the more we connect with

ourselves more deeply. The more we can connect better with

others, which I know that that might be obvious, but I didn't

really quite see that connection with others was the was the end

result. But that's what is the reality is sometimes people

think like, Oh, I gotta connect with other people and, you know,

that's what's going to make the difference. But you can't do

that until you know yourself. Yourself allows you to be able

to have, you know, what is it that I want to share? What is it

that is me, you know, how do I share me with others, and do it

in a way that's comfortable? And, and something that doesn't

feel unnatural? That that takes a little bit of practice and

getting used to.

And it's a connection at such a deeper level? Yes,

exactly. You know, I

mean, you know, one of the things I do a

lot of talk talks about is this idea of like, the art of

curiosity, conversations and about networking. And, you know,

oftentimes people will talk about, like, you know, in the

first seven seconds of meeting somebody, you're trying to

impress them. So use your title, you use your position. And I And

I'm telling the people I talked to like, hey, look, don't do

that. Don't use your title. Instead, try and connect with

people on a more human level, ask them things about what

what's important to them, and ask them things that will make

them want to have a further conversation as opposed to

worrying about if they measure up to you or if you measure up

to them. That stuff is like what draws people away from you.

Yeah, make it make it feel welcoming. Yeah. Yeah, like

sitting around a campfire?

Exactly. Exactly.

Oh, well, you can tell how much and I'd forgotten

about the Michael's story. So you're, you're encouraging me to

go back and tend to read again, I got so much out of reading the

book. And it's the book is available through your

publisher, Routledge. And on Amazon. I put your contact

information, the links to the book and your podcasts, I'll put

the other book as well, and your TED talks in there. So for

anyone who's interested in connecting with you, anything

about your first book that you'd like to share with our listeners

before we close? Sure,

I'm happy to first of all, the first book is

called climbing the right mountain. And in this book, I

It's a very succinct book, I should say it's not super long,

which is intentional, I wanted to make sure that people would

read it. I know a lot of people pick up books and they don't

read all the way through. But the the book is really about

defining success on our own terms. And, you know, ensuring

that when we start on our ascent in our career in life, that we

occasionally check in with ourselves and say, Okay, what is

it? That's really, you know, what do I want? Have I defined

that on my terms, and not just looking at it from the

happiness, but more from a deep seated fulfillment? What is was

it that made me feel fulfilled, and not wait till I get to some

unknown place to feel happy or fulfilled, instead, it's about

feeling that along the way of your journey,

wonderful. It's, it's interesting, because I know, too

many times, outplacement professionals, when they start

working with an individual who has been moved out of an

organization, and start doing the tests, like the Berkman's

and the insights, and those kinds of things, help the

individual they're working with, see how completely wrong their

career path had been to that point, you know, and I'll be

somebody in perhaps a finite finance field, who is an

incredibly creative individual who has completely stymied that

part of themselves. And, and so watching them literally blossom,

when they realize that they've been in the wrong field all

along. And finally find something unfortunately, through

that Flashpoint. Yeah. That is so much more in line with who

they are as an individual and really what their passion is,

and that, you know, that they have an opportunity of, of doing

differently going forward, you know, unfortunate through an

unfortunate circumstance but but is that you know, it's it's

going back and is about those those pivot points that

sometimes, you know, come on and left field for us but end up

being a blessing in disguise.

Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I

mean, there's like, you know, I said this earlier, somebody on a

call, is this happening to you or happening for you and I think

oftentimes It's happening for us, even though it doesn't feel

like it in the moment. And I think one of the things that

comes to mind around what you just shared, and I don't mean to

be bashing finance, because I think finance is a fantastic

field, especially if you love it. But I think one of the

things that comes to mind or at the story you shared, is this

idea that we, the work I do, at the core essence of it all is,

is to get people to light that spark inside of them so that

they feel like the flame can turn into, into something that

illuminates them from the outside from the inside out. And

I think illuminating people is what I do want them to feel

illuminated. But ultimately, there's a lot of people who are

walking around with like this dim light inside of them, they

just feels like yeah, okay, I'm just going through the motions,

and, you know, whatever, you know, like, this is work, and I

get paid, but I don't think that's really serving anybody.

Yeah, and certainly the engagement statistics that

we're seeing, you know, and we referenced burnout earlier.

There's there's too many of those individuals that yeah, we

need to get some gasoline on that spark inside them and and

let it glow so much brighter. So Wow, am I ever grateful that the

opportunity to connect him with you and to allow you to talk a

little bit more about your book and hopefully, make it just that

much more available to, to our listeners to people? Tony, thank

you for making the time to be here on HR inside out today.

It was wonderful. Thank you so much for

having me. I really enjoyed your questions and, you know, just

loved that you really dug into the book. And you know, just so

so grateful. And

for our listeners, you could see in the myriad of

ways that I've taken Tony and the questions how much there is

in the book to learn from and so many phenomenal real life

experiences from from the people that he interviewed real people

with real experiences and taking taking it forward. It is time

for us to bring the podcast to a close again, Tony, I love the

work you're doing it is Tony and Susan saying goodbye. Remember,

dare to soar because we believe you can't find that spark within

yourself if it's if it's starting to to fade on you. And,

and do connect him with Tony and he's got you said 250 Now

podcasts. Yeah, I've taken a listen to a few of them and

they're they're excellent as well. So thanks for being with

us, everybody and have a wonderful rest of your day.

Thank you. Take care. Bye for now.