Taking Off The Performance Mask - Jeff Munn

TUCP Intro/Outro: Welcome to The Ultimate Coach podcast conversations from being inspired by the book The Ultimate Coach, written by Amy Hardison, and Alan Thompson. Join us each week with the intention of expanding your state of being, and your experience will be remarkable. Remember, this is a podcast about be. It is a podcast about you. To explore more deeply, visit the ultimate Coach book.com. Now, enjoy today's conversation from being

Welcome back. My name is Philippe Bartu, and today I am joined by a fresh voice joining us from Colorado. We have Jeff Munn here today, Jeff, thank you for requesting to be a guest on the podcast and what a what a delight to be here with you today.

Well, thanks, Phillippe, I really I've been looking forward to this conversation because I've been, you know, following the group and thinking about reflecting on my own experience with Steve Hardison, which, you know, it was one being with sessions in 2014. But it really started me down the path toward being a coach, which I've been a full time coach since 2016. And I use it as a reminder for myself, that this concept of being isn't about adding or affirming or positive thinking. It's about revealing what we already are

such an important distinction you're putting out there. Now, I know from getting to that place, tell me a little bit about how that journey was for you. Which is really going from adding to revealing. Yeah, I'd love to hear what was your experience there? What were some of the things that you could looking back, you can see that you were it was more aspirational? And there was more adding and more work going on? And and then what what were the shifts that happened for you?

Yeah, well, first of all, I don't want to create the impression that somehow this is done or completed or finished it, it is a an ongoing struggle. For me, it's an ongoing, like this conversation itself is a reminder, right? I mean, there's a there's a lot of performance based self worth, let's put it that way that goes back to my childhood that goes back to how I got a sense of self worth in the world. You know, my, my dad was very different than me. He was like, an athlete and popular and all of these things. And I was not that kid, I was this, you know, fat, sweaty, stressed out kid who figured out he was good at school? Doesn't I figured out I could get straight A's. I figured out that, you know, my teachers lit up when I raised my head at hand and said something smart, you know, that I got rewards, you know, from my parents. When I did well in school, and that continued on me. No, it wasn't number one. In my high school class. I graduated from college with high honors, I went to a top law school, I was on the partner track at my law firm, like every step of the way. It was like, well, what's the performative thing that I can do to get the next reward? And I would jump through that hoop. Yeah, and it took me a good 15 years of doing that, you know, if you count like high school through law school and my law firm, before I began to question Hey, wait a minute, is this actually does this actually feel true to me? Is this actually making me happy is Is there some sense of purpose or meaning in any of this and there and the I remember having this moment, where I looked at the law firm partners, my my peers who were a few years ahead of me, that was the big reward that was the next hoop to jump through. And I thought, are they happy? And most of them weren't, it was like, Okay, I've got this wrong. But I didn't know what to replace it with. So I changed jobs. And I got on a different track. And it was better, but it wasn't great. And when I had my being with Sian with Steve Hardison in 2014. So this is like years later, and, you know, a couple jobs later. And he saw right through all that. Like, he looked at me, and he said, You're so damn polished. And I don't care about any of that. I want to see the real you. And I didn't. I didn't even know who that was at that point. And it was like, What do you mean? This is who I am. I want to be right, like,

Yeah,

yeah. And and it took a while to just begin to let go of some of that. Yeah. To reveal. Oh, so these are some of the things about me that you might think are weird that I've been hiding from you like my, my interest in spirituality and meditation that I kind of brought on as a coping mechanism for all the stress, right? I mean, I had I had all these interests. I thought they were weird, I hid them. So began to kind of reveal that a little bit. When I when I started out as a coach. I mean, this is so it's so messed up. But I instantly went back, you know, of course, forgot everything Steve had said to me, even though it comes back to me every now and then. And of course, the, you know, the book, even even the book, I can read in two ways, depending on my mood, or where I am that day, right? I can read it as this is about revealing who you are, and kind of your own authenticity and vulnerability and or this is a construction project. And you can you can add shiny new windows or you know, whatever, you know, whatever new facade you want. And after affirm your way to that.

Yeah, it's either a construction or a deconstruction.

Yeah. Yeah. And when and my experience of that is so different. When I remind myself, Oh, no, this is just about letting out the real you. This, you know, this, this kind of whatever it is, that's looking through our eyes below. And yeah, it's, it's it's refracted through our personality and our unique qualities, but it's also infinite. And it's way more than enough. And it doesn't need anything in front of it. When I was starting out as a coach, I, I just got into this backwards way of thinking about things where it's like, Well, who do I want to work with? And how would I need to present myself so that they would hire me?

How can I fit into the mold that they want me to fit in?

Yeah, and and so with that one reading of Yeah, yeah, I could read it as well, who do I need to be for them to hire me? Right? Yeah,

Of course. Who do I need to be to fit in that mold? Yeah, right. Yeah. Right, that say

That of who am I really. And then trust that the right clients will find me. And that's a totally different experience.

You know, what I'm hearing and that is a complete relaxation and letting go of the strain. I just yesterday, I something I haven't done in so long. I, I took three hours, I went by train for three hours to meet a friend for lunch I hadn't seen in 20 years. And in those, that lunch turned out to be a four hour lunch. And what was remarkable, was just cow damn comfortable. I was in my own skin. And there was no trying to impress, there was no trying to convince there was just two human beings enjoying each other's company. And I couldn't believe we had lunch. We sat down at 12 and we left the table at four. Wow, me, you know, it's just for me what happened? There was just such a reminder of the importance of authentic connection. And it was actually a business lunch, but 90% of that conversation was purely relationship. Yeah. And I think what why, when I come back to who do I need to be It was just like, Man, I just need to be a friend just being relaxed and curious. And it's like when you it's like when you hang out with friends. There's no real there's no agenda. The agenda is just enjoy each other's company. Right? And what I'm hearing there is Oh, yeah, well, if we could just have more of that.

Yeah. What if that was always our agenda? And that was it? Yeah.

What is that the agenda? You know, people will people say the agenda is, so with no agenda. That's cool, too. But I also appreciate just the agenda of just enjoying each other's company.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's so true for whether you're talking about friends, or romantic relationships, or business relationships, it, it can feel scary, to show up on adorned, if you will. And whenever someone else is showing up that way, with us, it's so powerful, because that connection piece, I mean, to me, like, you know, you can talk about money, or titles or starting a company or any of this stuff, but like, when I feel most alive, is when I feel enacted authentically to another human being.

Now, I'm just laying that Mary's Say with me, because I'm, I'm wondering, and I'm really wondering if in business, there's a space for that. And I mean, what what's occurring to me is, there's so many times where we go in with an agenda. And there's nothing wrong with that. But there's definitely task before relationship. Yeah. And it's just the having an agenda where it would be relationship first. And then the task at hand, somehow allows the connection allows us to go forms much more deeply, and whatever we're up to, and whatever we're creating, because there's a level of listening and speaking, that's happening. And that's, yeah, that's, I mean, I'm just seeing this quite, I wouldn't say new but fresh from an on what you're sharing with me.

I am thinking of a couple of my clients where they're running businesses. And that's, that's what we're working on. And sometimes the place where they have the most difficulty is actually, so both of these clients are men, and it's with their wives. You know, like, how how do you say what you want? How are you vulnerable? What did you do that felt vulnerable this week? And that, I mean, that that crosses boundaries across your whole life, you know, just how am I? How am I more real not only about my, what I'm good at? Where I struggle, what I want? How am I clear? And what opens up when I am?

Yeah, so one of the reasons we're here today is there's something that you picked up on this idea of toxic positivity. Can you share more about that?

Yeah, I think for me, that shows up when I'm trying to pretend things are going better than they actually are, or trying to pretend to they're more confident than I actually am or trying to, you know, it's that it's that first reading of who would I need to be and, uh, you know, how do I use my document to make myself better? You know?

Yeah, yeah. So when it comes from a place of I'm not enough, right? That becomes a tool to become enough. And then the question, Who do I need to be is additive, and just creates more ways to do work on yourself? Yeah. And, and also, like, isn't that interesting, that question, Who do you need to be? I've always struggled with that question. And I've always struggled with the word need. Yeah, yeah, me too. Me too. And it's not that there's, you know, I recognize that different people resonate with with a different language. And there was a time where I moved it to Who do I get to be? And that even feels, somehow that doesn't even resonate with me anymore. And so, for me, actually, what's coming up for me now is just Who am I being merely? Just who am I being? And in? Who do I? Just who, rather than Who do I want to beat us notice? Who am I being? Oh, yeah, I'm, I'm being fearful. Right? So if I let go of being fearful, then I'm coming back to nothing. And be and then from nothing. I can be something.

Well, and what's coming up for me is you're saying that Philip is just to acknowledge in that moment, the fearfulness or the neediness or whatever it is, you know, whatever is happening for you, whatever is happening for me. The acknowledgement and the being of that allows it to shift and change and dissolve and turn into something else. Because we're always, you know, being is not a constant state. We're in flux.

Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, that's just perfect. Because it's brings the humanity to it. Yeah. Because if I'm, if I'm being fearful, and I'm telling myself well, who I need to be as confident, and I'm trying to do confident on top of fearful that I haven't really been, with the being fearful, I've been avoiding being fearful, covering up with something else. And then of course, that's the whole self forgiveness piece is a way to free yourself, liberate yourself. Yeah. And I think what you're speaking to is, even before any of that, actually being with the being fearful paced primary, right, and allowing that to be okay.

Yeah, not denying any of it. It's all it's all. Yeah. It's all you do. It's all whatever is showing up in any moment. And our, our humanity is this beautiful thing. And we spend, I spend a lot of time trying to hide about half of me, you know, the fearful, insecure, worried about my business worried about whether I'm going to get this client when you know, all of that stuff. Instead of just saying, oh, yeah, there's that again. Interesting.

Yeah. And there's always an order to write. Thank ya, writing comes from an order to what I know in my case is covering up an insecurity. Yeah. Then it just becomes inauthenticity. And I what what I what I was really good at was being very inauthentic about being inauthentic. Yeah. And I

am being inauthentic.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, that's beautiful. And a seat that right? I mean, and I do it too. It's just out there I go again.

Well, not not just that, yeah. And then building some noble ideas was maybe I'll give you an example of a level of inauthenticity that I have experienced from, for the age of 27, I saw was my dream to have a restaurant. And I opened a restaurant in Lisbon in Portugal. And at the time, there was a law that came out. And so you could choose if restaurants were Smoking or non smoking. Now, I was very proud to be one of the first non smoking restaurants. And I made that choice. And that weekend, I was with my girlfriend, and her father, who happened to be the main investor of our restaurant. And I was speaking to him. And in that conversation, I said to him, hey, you know, I was proudly proud to tell him, we've decided we're going to be a non smoking restaurant. And he looked at me and he said, Well, you're free to choose what you want to do. But I just want you to know that if you're going to have a non smoking restaurant, then I'm never going to come. And I'm not going to come with any of my friends. And quite frankly, it's a pretty poor business decision. Opening a restaurant is already risky. Now opening a non smoking restaurant. It's just a risk. I wouldn't do that. You're free to do what you want. Yeah, so So I went home that day. And oh, and then he said something else. And he says, and on top of it all that goes against my values. And as I went, Well, what do you mean you're not you're not even a smoker? And he says, No, I value inclusivity and what you're doing is discriminatory. And I can I came home that day. And somehow, out of my fear to confront him, I bought into the idea of this story of inclusivity. And I made that so noble. And I said, No, no, I want to be inclusive. And really what I was afraid of was actually going against his recommendation. And I was afraid of him of not looking good in his eyes. But I was also afraid of him not coming with a lot of influential people that would be good for the business. And so I went against my own principles and values, I was out of alignment. And the way that I suffer, I was breathing, I was breathing in smoke. Every night, my health took a hit, I got, gosh, I lost myself. And this was a time where the restaurant was like, super successful. You had a waiting list of people to come in that weekend. But the cost was, like, I sold my soul to the devil. Yeah, and it eventually led me to burning out. Because I didn't just do this with them, I was just trying to please everyone. And I think I think this comes back to, you know, looking back at this foundational question of being, I was so needy, of being loved, being loved by Him by others, of others, other people's approval, the pressure that I had done that I was living in from, from all from from just this impossible task of, yeah, living up to other people's standards and ideals of what they think is right and wrong. And being completely disconnected to my own truth, and values.

It's a, it's a very similar journey, with probably similar health implications, to the one that I took as a as a lawyer, and, you know, working incredibly long hours, because, you know, I had been told, and I had believed that I needed to do this thing to be successful and to feel successful. And it was not true. And it came at great personal cost to me, including, you know, panic attacks, and probably a decent amount of self medication. Yeah, and that, that it's what's resonating with me, as you're, as you're saying that Philip is what a what a radical act, it is, in our society, to look inward for those things rather than outward. Yeah, like we are, we're surrounded by messages of, you need this thing, you need to be this way, you need to show it this way, you need to act this way. And then on the other side of that will be happiness, fulfillment, satisfaction, whatever. And I've never seen anyone achieve any level of satisfaction by pursuing external things.

So what was the shift for you, when you really noticed that you're starting to look inwards?

It wasn't a huge, it was more of a gradual shift. I'm a vast, very slow learner. I mean, the first the first was like the, oh, the partners aren't happy, why do I want to be a partner during the course of my corporate career, so I was in the corporate world from you know, the, the late 80s till 2017 We're 2016 When I lost my was laid off from my last corporate job. And during that time, it was this slow process of alignment, this willingness to ask myself am I happy? Does this feel true to me and it wasn't just corporate stuff it was you know, I went through a divorce as well and that was a huge thing of again, you know, selecting someone as a partner who on paper looked like exactly the right fit and in actuality was not and then having an insert terms to that with that and and make the move to say okay, I'm I know this is going to do throw my life and the live lives of some others into upheaval. But yeah, this isn't right. Yeah.

Oh, it takes otherworldly levels of care. urge to be in alignment. It's such a courageous act, I think it's a word that isn't used enough when it comes to alignment. It's a courageous way of living. I mean, I like you my first marriage, I remember three days before the wedding, being my mother in law pulls me aside. And she says, I need to say this, because I'm not sleeping at night. And I have a message for you. And I don't think you can hear it. But that's okay. My job is to share it with you. And I knew that what she was about to say, was really the truth. And I was so afraid of what was about to say, and she looked at me and she said, My daughter is not ready to get married, she is not ready for that level of commitment. And I just want you to know, before you get into that wound, that was actually was three weeks, it was three weeks before getting married. And I, you know, when you hear the truth and something, but you don't want to hear the truth. Now, yeah. So for me to be in alignment required such a level of courage to, to actually confront her get clear on that. And the implications would be canceling the wedding three weeks before, this is an international destination wedding. Which at the time, just seemed like, way too big of a deal. I would just like, so it was it was a choice to ignore the wisdom. And you know how long my marriage lasted two and a half labs, oh, my gosh, wow, I was married for two and a half months. Because once I got married. And once I got over all that it was, then I didn't have to deal with disappointing all the people that had come and everything. So that kind of the whole, the whole wedding in a way was the whole mean, the whole thing was out of alignment. And, and I can look back and speak about it from here. But at the time when I was in that moment, I was there's very little awareness. To tell you the truth.

You were probably terrified. You didn't I mean, I know so many times in my life where I, on some deeper level, I knew the truth, but I was I wouldn't let myself see it.

So you know, I think when you say you're a slow learner, I think what what it is is? It's to me, I think I would describe it as it wasn't, I was slow, really, really stepping into that level of courage to be in alignment. Yeah, and disappointing that amount of people.

Yeah, I think I think for me at different at different stages of my life, there was the first question was, are you actually willing to look? And then are you willing to see what you're looking at? And then are you willing to act on it? And I feel like as I look back at, you know, if you if you want to assume for the sake of this conversation, that there is this, whether you call it God or life with a capital L or intelligence or whatever, acting through us and, and presenting learning opportunities. I feel like life has been pretty masterful at giving me what I could handle in the moment. In preparation for the next lesson, whatever, whatever that is. And in the cones in the, if we take it back to Bing for a second, it's consistently been about dropping things. You can drop Oh, you don't need this either. You don't need this either. You can actually be this. And then what is revealed in that place is way bigger than anything you could build on the sense of lack.

Yeah. Right. Yeah.

And so I mean, I love that story. Philip, I've got a minus in two and a half months. My marriage was nine years, but it was it took me a long time just to even recognize a wave and I'm not happy.

Yeah, it takes a level of self honesty. Yeah, to say that, you know, the crazy thing is, if you had asked me while I had my restaurant I would have told you, I'm happy. Yeah. And my answer would have been like, yeah, business is good. I got great friends. And this is why I have this great girlfriend and I living in this beautiful apartment. And I would give you a checklist of everything that I had achieved to be happy because my formula was, once I have all this, then I'll be happy. And I had completed it was a full formula. So in my, in a way, I was, for me unerringly, yeah, I was happy. And looking back, what I really was, was I was a very functional, depressed human being. There wasn't. I was functionally depressed, but I was unhappy, without self honesty of confronting my unhappiness. Right. And I was inauthentic. And I was he looked at me, and he thought, wow, this guy, it's like, he's got it all. And people were envious of me.

Oh, I went through the same thing. Yeah, I mean, that resonates as true for me so much. And, and as you were talking, Philip, what came up for me is this. I had unconsciously written a success handbook, a set of rules, you know, a bunch of boxes to tick off about, you know, education, and job and partner and where I lived, and, you know, what kind of car I drove all of these things. And, and I had them all, I mean, you know, to a degree, I mean, we don't, you know, those things are, you can always trick yourself into thinking, well, if I just had this promotion, or if I just had this right. But I, I had a lot of it. I think that there were plenty of people who, outside looking in think thought I had it all. And to confront that I had written myself a bad set of rules and that they didn't work. I it took me a long time to be willing to go there.

What are the set of rules that you've written for yourself now that you believe do work? While

they are rules that I'm still getting? I get better and better at following them show up as authentically in his true real as I can in the moment. As much as I can say, what's on my mind and what's occurring for me. You know, I think there's one test that I have for myself as to when I noticed myself hesitating to say something. I, I asked myself, am I hesitating to say this? Because, you know, I don't quite have the relationship with the other person or I'm afraid of hurting their feelings, or I'm afraid of, you know, but is my concern about the other person? Or is it my concern about what the other person will think of me? And if it's about the ladder? I tried to just put it out there.

Yeah. You don't stop yourself. I am concerned. You're, yeah, you're free to speak out and speak straight.

Yeah. And that that one's hard. Yeah, depending on context, depending on the topic. But that, I mean, I'll go back to a earlier part of our conversation where I really where I am right now is I feel like what I most want in the world is to be true to myself, to drop those facades and through that willingness to feel authentic connection to a small number of other human beings who are willing to do the same in my life.

For when coming from that intention. Yeah. There's that part of Yeah, letting, letting go and rediscovering yourself. What is it that you're really excited to create from that place? Community? Say more about that? Yeah.

I've noticed myself just being willing to reach out to more people and have that be the offer. Hey, I'm noticing this. How about you have no Missing, wanting to talk about this? How about you?

Well, you said you said community? Yeah. What kind of community? Is this something you're actively building? Or is this something you're still still.

So I, I have been doing some work with John Patrick Morgan. And discovered in that process, I mean, I had a, I had built this one on one coaching practice. And I have a small number of one on one clients that I've, I feel like I'm able to really do deep work with over a period of time, you know, some of my clients, I mean, you know, we'll work together multiple years, and we'll go, and we'll go deep, but that's a small number of people. Through my work with JP, I began to get connected with other coaches who were in earlier stages of building their businesses. And I just really enjoyed being in conversation. And so I, I just, this was just an experiment. I know, Filipina you and I didn't talk about this before the conversation. But I had a, I just offered a zoom call of like, coaches who were interested in talking. And we did it like three weeks ago, and 10 people showed up, and we just had a lovely, like, hey, what's, what's up with you? What's going on for you? Where are you struggling, what feels true for you what feels like it's difficult with this, to the extent that I have an agenda, it's in sharing my own experience that as I got more clear on who I was, and just being that my business actually took off. And I think that's true for anyone building a business, including a coach. And then that idea that we have to say, oh, but I'm not an experienced coach, or I'll I've never talked to such and such, you know, we'll get in our heads and we'll create all these stories. And then we, you know, I will go into the, when I'm in that place, I'll go into the story of like, Well, who would I need to be to show up and, and I've done that, and I've, I've seen where it goes. And I've felt the energy in myself of that. And I just, I just want to share, it doesn't have to be that way. In

the simplest form, it's also who your being is not stopped by the internal dialog. Yeah, trying to protect you trying to tell you what you can or cannot do. And I think ultimately, who you're being as a way of freeing yourself. So there's something much bigger running the show than your internal dialogue.

Yeah, and when you think what our brains do to us when we're in fear, it's the opposite of what you need to do to create a business. You know, fear, makes you want to stay small and safe, and look like everybody else, and not be different and fit in. And that doesn't do much as you're trying to say, hey, here's how I can help you. I do it just like everyone else.

There, you know. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. So acknowledging the fear. And then there, there's, there's that kind of fear. And then there's more the, the could I really do this kind of excitement that can show up? Like, wow, maybe I am enough to try something like this.

And maybe it doesn't matter that I am enough or not. Right? I can throw maybe, maybe I just throw that around and just, yeah, just choose. Right. And just create and not be stopped by my internal dialogue.

Yeah, just put it out there and see what happens. Yeah, yeah. It's not think of it as success or failure. It's just like, data. Oh, yeah. That didn't that didn't work. I'll try something else.

Yeah. Thank you, Jana. Thank you for this refreshing, simple reminder to liquid and slow down to enjoy to create from a place of relaxation, authenticity and service. That's really what I'm hearing and your message and and this is such a great reminder for us to share.

I think you said two words that really hit me hard. To fill up simple and in reminder, and and I have to constantly remind myself how simple this is there in my brain will go off and create projects and plans and ways of offering myself or showing up in the world are, you know, kind of different, different clothes to put on? Metaphorically and physically? Yeah.

Well, let's let's let this episode is a place to come to, when we need to when we need reminding, which we always do. And we often do not always we often do. And so let this is a this episode is a place to come back to, to remind ourselves when we lose a horse when we're off course.

Yeah, thank you, Phillip, thank you for being such a good partner in this creation together.

Yeah, well, thanks. You know, we came in this conversation with an idea and just allowing it to unfold so beautifully. Yeah, thank you for playing. For people that want to know more about your community, your offerings, where you're up to? How can they what's the best way for them to get in touch with you?

Probably the easiest way is to just send me an email at Jeff at Jay mine.com. I mean, I am on Facebook and involved in some of the groups. So for friends on Facebook, you can send me a message. I do a fair amount on LinkedIn. That's a good place to connect as well. But yeah, start with an email or a message. Let's let's talk I would I would love to hear from anyone who this resonated.

Beautiful. Thank you, Jeff. Thank you for your time today. And thank you, to you, our listeners who I also want to just celebrate that the podcast has just reached a top 5% of the podcasts in this world, whatever that means. It's thanks to your continued listening and support and special thank you as well for those that have written reviews. It makes a difference and we really appreciate it. And thank you for your contribution. Until next time.

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