Dealing With Post-Grief Depression with Dr Jodi Richardson

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back. You've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request. If any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the end Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it. Can everyone and welcome to this week's guest, Dr. Jody Richardson, Jodi, how are you? I'm good.

Unknown Speaker 1:08

I'm great. I'm really good. Thank you. Good to be here with you.

Ian Hawkins 1:11

Great stuff. Now we were just talking before we jumped on how we tried to arrange this. Or it's probably over 12 months ago now. So it's great to finally have you on all these things. Timing is usually exactly as it needs to be. Now we're going to talk about the work that you do, specifically around around anxiety. But before we do that, we're going to talk a bit about your story. So you said before we jumped on about just that idea of grief and where that's sad, but there was some, hopefully some realizations already around that. So tell us about the big moment for you where where everything changed in your life?

Unknown Speaker 1:50

Yeah, I will. It's interesting when when I knew I was coming on to talk to you, and I thought, Ah, I don't know if Ian's gonna really want to talk about it. And if I've really got much to contribute around grief. And it's so interesting, just when somebody asks you the right questions as you did off air, we didn't go into depth, but just how you kind of can sometimes in hindsight, more understand what you've been going through and, and in terms of a huge turning point for me and my life. I I'll say here, now that I live with anxiety, and I can look back that I have done since I was four. Since I started prep, that's when my first symptoms began. But I lived with it undiagnosed for around 20 years. But I eventually got help not because I realized I had something that was treatable. I just thought that was life. And that's how everybody lived. Because I suffered with major depressive disorder. And that was really precipitated by the death of my now well, we weren't married at the time. But my husband now Peter, he was my partner, then boyfriend girlfriend hit the death of his dad. And I with undiagnosed anxiety, it's not uncommon for the brain to eventually just go like to kind of do this anymore. And for things to end up sort of slowing down and for that real withdrawal, and that real difficulty sort of functioning day to day and lots of tears and a lot of sadness. But what I think really accelerated that was the fact that Pete's dad died, we knew he was unwell. And we knew that he had a terminal diagnosis of prostate cancer. And I really paid on I'd already been together for some time, some years and his dad, and I just got along really, really well. A really great guy. And so we had this good relationship. I was at his house a lot. And it was interesting because I knew, I knew that the time was imminent for his passing. And I remember going to the hospital, actually going to the hospital just to check in on Pete and his mom, because I knew they were visiting. They were visiting often and I was visiting often as well. But on this particular Douthat, I'll just pop in I know there they are going and say hello, check out how they're going. And when I walked in the room, Peters dad had actually passed away and it had only just happened. And so I got obviously quite a shock because that was not my expectation, and I hadn't had the news. And even though you are expecting something like this to happen, it's always just absolutely devastating when it finally happens, and in the aftermath of that. What I found was, and Pete doesn't mind me talking about him, I have permission to talk about him when I'm doing these sorts of things but never said this before he said he he wasn't openly expressive with his grief and I'm a very expressive person when it comes to emotions. So I opted not to express my emotions in pizza company. Because I remember having the idea in my mind, how can I cry on his shoulder about his dad, when he should be crying on my shoulder. And so I bought it, I bottled it up, I held on to it, I had my moments, but because we spent a huge amount of time together, and of course, when I was with him, there was that reminder of what was missing. You know, his dad was gone. And so that time in my life was really, really hard. And I didn't realize at the time, just how much of an impact it was having on me. And I think that was what really, you know, brought me to the point where my mental health was just so terrible. And I didn't even know what mental health was. I just knew I was so sad. That's when I went to the doctor. And everything kind of changed from there.

Ian Hawkins 6:10

Yeah, well, it doesn't surprise me. Yeah, you describe that when you live with anxiety for all those years, and the body eventually, packs it in, I heard Jason Silva describe depressed from the two words deep rest, the body eventually just says, We can't keep doing this, you need to stop. And it sounds that almost sounds like what you're describing there.

Unknown Speaker 6:32

Yes, yes, it's, um, you know, ultimately led me to the work that I do, because I was teaching at the time, and I left to go and work for beyondblue, because I thought depression, never heard of it. Never. And at that stage, anxiety wasn't part of the mix. And part of the conversation and the feeling of No, there was one day I looked back to when I was teaching, and I taught at a grammar school. And we had Saturday morning sport, which nobody much liked, kids loved it. But as a teacher, you know, you're at school earlier on a Saturday morning than any other day of the week. And I loved the kid loves sport. And so I do remember waiting at the bus, marking off the kids names as they hopped on the bus, and just tears streaming down my face, I could not control my tears. And the gorgeous kids, they kind of give me a little nod though, a secondary school kid, that's a little nod, like, oh, I don't know what to do here. And I had a two hour bus trip. And I remember sitting on the bus and having, you know, you know, when you sort of lost in your life, and what's happening that you don't have time to sort of step back and kind of have a look at it. And on that bus trip, I remember, I remember leaning on the window, looking out the window and just going oh my gosh, like, let's just have a look at what's happening here. If you could tick every box of what success in your early 20s might be like, which I never had a list. But, you know, we look at our circumstances of life. And we think, Well, we think our circumstances of life equate to our experience of life, which is not necessarily the case. You know, Peter and I had our own home, we had a puppy, a beautiful puppy. So we've got you know, where I am coming to you from now we still live here all these years later, on a couple of acres in a really beautiful place where we were starting our life together and a job I loved fit and healthy, lots of friends fit and healthy other than my mental health. And, you know, a bit of disposable income, and just kind of being able to do the things that I wanted to do with freedom and independence. And, and you're absolutely miserable. And yeah, so that was depression is a really difficult thing to describe. You don't want to do anything, you exhausted all the time. And you just feel so terribly, terribly sad.

Ian Hawkins 8:55

You mentioned there, how you thought of how you should grieve? And I'd love to unpack that some more because it comes up a lot. It's like people don't know how to act. And ultimately, there's no right or wrong. Now, I don't know if he would have time over again, whether you would have done that differently. But from everything you've described the bottling up and the suppressing really did you no favors at all.

Unknown Speaker 9:25

Yeah, if I had my time over, I'd ask Pete if it was okay with him. And I'd say to him, I feel so sad and all I want to do is cry. Are you okay with that? And he would have said, Of course I know that he would have said of course. But I put myself in his shoes. And I thought gosh, if this was my dad, I wouldn't want to be comforting someone else. I mean, I would but I'd certainly want to be dealing with my own stuff. So I thought it's not fair of me. I need to ask him to deal with my stuff and his stuff. Yeah, so it's really nice to be able to think back and reflect on that experience. And, and, you know, to know that, I mean, I'm very, very open with my emotions. I mean, I'm, I'm really good at regulating my emotions, but I express how I feel, in appropriate places at appropriate times and encourage my family, and that's a lot about what I teach. But I certainly didn't do it, then I certainly didn't do it, then and it may cost me a lot.

Hmm. word that comes to mind is that, that you would have asked permission. And I think whether however, wording you want to put around it, I think that that in itself, in a situation where you are helping someone through and supporting someone through grief is yeah, just asking a question around what they're comfortable with and not making it about us. I really love that. Because it's almost like, at a time where you don't know what to say. And make sense, ask a question instead?

Yeah, yeah, I had, I'd done things differently, the experience would have been so much different. I imagine that my untreated unrecognized anxiety would have caught up with me eventually. But I'm also, you know, I've experienced a lot of growth. From that experience in with what I went through, through when I was coming out the other side of depression, I had a completely different view of the world and perspective on the world, and what really was important. And that stayed with me. Because when you haven't got when you haven't got your mental health, when you're in the absolute depths of despair, and I don't know a lot about grief, I'll be honest with you, I don't know a lot about the processes. And that's obviously your wheelhouse. But, and I know that when we do grieve, and I've lost other people in my life, and I've grieved for them, and come out the other side of that, but with with depression, it was just this real sense that what really, really matters in life, other people, family, and friends. And that's really what was a turning point for me to go, I really need to do something to help other people who like me just don't understand about mental health and what they can do.

So I will say this is that what you described there is coming out the other side of depression is what most people experience when they have a devastating loss, it's the same thing, it's that moment of sitting there with those thoughts of what is most important because you, you quickly realize that the things that you were worried about, up until that point are no longer significant. So it's, this is Conversations give me a whole new perspective on people coming out the other side of that those bouts of depression because it is it's like it's, it's a, what you're describing is a very similar piece. Now, the other part of grief, which I deal predominantly with is not so much those days afterwards, but is the residual ongoing impact and, and I'm always looking for, for dots to join. So I'm gonna get into a bit of a pathway, which might be a bit of a leap, but bear with me. So what you said you had a really good connection with your father in law, what what was it about him that really grabbed you?

Oh, thank you for asking. Um, we were both nerds. So he, yeah, so he, I mean, I was I was teaching I was teaching at the time, but just I mean, Peter is an avid reader, his dad was an avid reader. And we call him skipping, because he was English, but had moved to Australia. So his name was Skippy. And yeah, we I think we really connected on on a range of levels. He, he was, he always just seemed so pleased to see me. I think he really loved that. You know, I was a new part of the family and we could talk about the books we're reading and he had a really interesting psychology. And I remember one day he tested us on paint me and some of our friends on the Myers Briggs test D for me Myers Briggs test. And it was fascinating. You really loved having those kinds of conversations and I was really interested in his son Ori and he's history and about the family and you know, learning a bit more about Peyton. You know, where'd he sort of come from in his own, you know, family with this dad and mom having moved from overseas so, yeah, so we just we just kind of clicked but yeah, we had a lot of similar interests I suppose.

And the reason I ask is so that there was a similar journey for me with my father in law like he's still with us there's there was a synergy there that perhaps wasn't there with my own dad. And not to say that I had a bad relationship with my dad but there was some elements there of this new relationship which really led me up so is that a similar truth for you were there some some disconnects with your dad that father in law kind of fill that hole? conversate

Can you hear me God?

Hello, are you got me back?

You're back? I didn't hear any of that. Did you hear my whole question? Yes. Okay. So literally froze after I spoke. I didn't hear a single word. It was just you frozen. So if you if you could.

Yeah, sure. Yeah, I think there were definitely elements of that I could have conversations with Pete Stan about things that weren't of interest. I'm not not that they weren't interested in. They just weren't in his sphere, the way in the orbit that he sort of moved in. And so whilst I could talk to Dan about other things, when I talked to Pete stead, we had a lot in common a lot of, you know, really good conversations about different things. Yeah. So he, it was just, it was just a really, you know, great person, and always made me feel extremely welcome. And yeah, I really enjoyed spending time with him.

So, if you look at it from that perspective, it's someone that's sort of plugging a hole and then and then he's gone. It's to me, it's like, that depression coming off the back of that. Yes, he had other things going on leading up to that as well, but it's almost like the catalyst that's like the the last moment that sort of tipped you over the edge, right, something so big.

Yeah, definitely. And I think too, I know so I would put myself in the shoes of Pete and his mom. And so I would think I was grieving too, for what it would be like if I lost my dad. And I was thinking, oh my gosh, what would it be like for my mom to lose my dad. And so, and I read once, because I've been to a number of funerals in my in my time, and sometimes I find myself so choked up at a funeral. And it might be a funeral of someone who I'm not close to, perhaps a friend's parent. And I'm sad for the friend. So it's not it's not that it's not the personal sense of loss for the person that's passed. It's the sadness and the grief for the PERT for the people left behind. And then it makes you reflect to doesn't it on the people that you've lost, or that you will one day lose? And what that must be like, and so I think the impact in me really put myself in other people's shoes. And yeah, so I can be at any In fact, I was at a funeral of a school friend, not long after Pete's dad had passed away. And I was inconsolable. And I needed to leave. Because I felt just so overwhelmed with emotion. But I really knew that, you know, there was sadness, obviously, for the loss of this friend, not super close friend, but a friend from school, but it was it was just the spilling over of all this unresolved grief from passing a pizza dad. So. And it was it was a fella actually, that I just dated once who had passed away. And I thought, I also was very conscious people are gonna go, gee, God is really feeling this. Meanwhile, I was in this new relationship in a really strong relationship. And, and I really was aware that people would not understand my grief and would misinterpret it. Even as I was myself trying to understand it in that moment, so I had to go, I just had to actually leave and sort of tried to pull myself together to drive home. So

yeah, that makes total sense. It's, it's the same reason that people can get quite upset when a famous person passes. Part of us feels like we know them, but But it's because of our own stuff comes flooding to the surface. It's why when there's if you've got children, when you see different instances, whether the you know, the impact on children, or will the children losing someone or like that, that's like, that's the one that grabs me still, because of our own stuff around that. And it all comes to the surface. And it doesn't matter what the circumstances are, it doesn't matter whether it's appropriate or not, sometimes it just, it spills over. And that's pretty normal, particularly for someone clearly so empathetic as yourself. Yes, yeah. So I'd love to unpack that experience with depression and then coming out the other side. Because for those who have experienced or still experiencing, this is going to be some real gold for them to see one that they're they're not alone in what they're experiencing, but some of the key things that really helped you so. So when you go into that spiral, what's the overriding emotion is that one of like, hopelessness or not even that, like there's something worse than that, like, how are you your emotions play out when you're in that place?

Complete hopelessness and despair, a sense that life will never be any different. And knowing that there's a whole world out there waiting for you, but you just don't know how to get back to it. And my depression was so I mean, depression is depression. It's just absolutely horrendous. And I remember being on the bathroom floor and I was living with my parents at the time, so I'm a bit yeah, I actually noticed actually living at home. Yeah, was it That's right. Yes, I when I was teaching was later late. So I'm a bit. Yeah, I wasn't living with Peter at the time I was living at home. Hmm, it's a little bit blurry. I just distinctly remember being at home in the bathroom, my parents house and just kind of curled up literally in the fetal position on the bathroom floor, just sobbing and just wishing that I wouldn't wake up the next day. You know, if I went to sleep, just wishing. I don't want to wake up. I didn't want to hurt myself. I did not. I did not want to stop living. I didn't want to kill myself, but I just didn't want to continue living with the pain and the grief and the sadness. That was just so overwhelming. I couldn't. I couldn't, I couldn't see any light. And I know that that was obviously a frightening thing to think that I just don't care if I don't wake up. But, of course, that's that was just a fleeting moment, it was it was a real low was really hard to be in that in that place. And it took time to come through it with a lot of help a lot of help.

It's unsurprising to me that it is blurry in terms of, of dates and where you were and what have you, because that's a lot of grief and, and depression and other mental health challenges does, right, it takes away that clarity of thought and messes with memories and so on. So that points you mentioned there. Lots of help. So was there any time there where you? We didn't feel like that even though there were people there, you still felt like all these people here, but they can't even help me anyway.

I did feel at some point that nobody could help me. I even remember. Yeah, I'm clear. Now I was living at home. So Peter and I, I remember Peter and I were engaged to be married, we postponed our wedding because of my mental health. We had bought this place. But we hadn't moved in here. It's very, very blurry. The memories, a lot of memories are really difficult to call on. So I do remember thinking and that nobody can help me and being desperate, absolutely desperate, and clutching it any store that anyone would pass me. And I remember praying for the first time. I'm not one to pray. And my mum is Christian. And she was she sought the support of a couple who were counselors from her church who were actually neighbors of ours. And we went and spent some time because I look back and I think how hellish for my parents to have me going through this. as well. Like I reflect now on just how painful and distressing and hopeless they must have felt. And I do remember having this conversation with these these people, I still remember their names, and coming home that night and going right? God if you are there, now's the time this is it. This is it, I'm reaching out to you. If there's if you're there, show me a sign you know that classic you know, I don't even know come to Jesus moment I've heard sit on it on a movie and and I was bitterly disappointed that I didn't have any sort of epiphany or vision or change was so interesting, because I ended up meeting with the most amazing psychologist, he was my third psychologist and we we just spent years working together on and off, on and off on and off for years and years and years. And I remember set recounting this to him. And no offense meant for anybody who who has, you know, beliefs, Christian beliefs or otherwise I have full full support for anybody's beliefs was just weren't my beliefs, but I just was reaching for whatever would help me and I, I said and I knew that my psychologist was not a believer himself. And I didn't know even know much about him. But through our conversations, I was I was aware of that. And he had shared that with me. And I remember saying to him this and he said makes me laugh. He said how do you know that I am not the answer to your prayers.

I'm glad you said it. Because it's the first place my mind where it was like, Isn't that funny? We in moments of grief, we talk to God, or we pray and then the solution does find us but we attribute it to something else.

When he said that to me, and he was saying it. I know he was saying it tongue in cheek but he he challenged my thinking, you know, and I said Hmm, I guess I don't you know, I guess I don't know. And, yeah, I mean, it wasn't it wasn't his way of trying to say you know, but by this stage I had come through so much and I was so much better. As you know, as you can probably tell to you know, for him to sort of say that to me and yeah, yeah. So it's Yeah, such it's such a tough time. But I look back now, you know, I mean, I'm open with my age. John 48, I think every birthday is a gift and I just, I live this rich life, I have a lot of happiness in my life, I'm very accepting of all of life's ups and downs, I don't have to like them, very accepting of what, you know, life throws at us as humans. Very, very grateful. And I look back to where I was and where I was now. And I just think it just could not be two different, you know, we couldn't be further apart the God that was on the bathroom floor, and the God, you know, sitting here in front of you could not be more different. And but it's because of that experience, that I'm here with you today. So, yeah, it's it's quite, it's quite amazing to have the opportunity to think back and reflect on it. So yeah, so thank you.

You're welcome. That's part of the reason for the platform is to tell people stories, because someone, somewhere will be listening to this. And just, it'll be resonating and given them hope, when maybe they haven't got any. So. Yeah, whether whether you come from a, like you said, a religious background, or you believe in a higher power, or whatever it is, there is some kind of magic happening that is, to me undeniable, when those things happen, when we ask what do you just told me about your unconscious mind when we ask and? And then the answer is right there in front of us. And it's amazing what our logical brain will do to make sense of it. And whether we understand, right, it's another method we use to keep ourselves safe, I suppose. So you've highlighted the importance of getting support. And to me the bit that I really picked up on his like, don't just settle for any support, if the support you're getting is not working, then keep searching and keep finding like, if you had decided that you'd see one psychologist, and it didn't work and decided psychologists that work, which I know, I've heard people talk about, right, and I've tried that as a worksite, you've got to be open and see that there are other ways, and we're going to come to the anxiety stuff. So I'd be really interested to hear your thoughts on some of that when we get further down the conversation, because I'm sure there'll be someone listening here thinking about anxiety a different way, and maybe haven't been given the answers. And you may just have that. So thank you for sharing that part of the journey. So was this was there a moment where you kind of felt like you were out sought out the other side? Or was it more of a gradual where suddenly you look back and went, Oh, actually, I'm not going to bed now.

Yeah, there wasn't a moment, nothing that comes to mind. You know, in this moment now, I realized, through my therapy, and yes, what you just highlighted is so important that the right it's got to be the right fit psychologist, it really doesn't. And it's important to persevere, and ask your GP for that next referral and ask around for recommendations because I saw the first person and I was just like, couldn't run for the hills. The second person was recommended by a colleague, and she was a dream analyst. And I didn't really know that. And I just found that to be outside of my the way I think about life. I don't know much about Dream Therapy, it just didn't feel like it was going to be the right fit for me. And yes, when I found the psychologists that I had for years and years and years, it was just an absolute game changer. But the real, it's interesting, actually, now that now that I think a little bit more about it, I started on antidepressants, I was unable to make any change as a result of my therapy, because my depression was so severe. So I took antidepressants, and they had a profound effect on how I felt. So I thought, this depression thing is behind me, I am gay, I can go off my medication. At which point I plummeted back into depression and felt very strongly that I needed to understand it, I wanted to work through it. I didn't want to and I am now medicated. I'm medicated. Now many, many years later that I spent a long time many, many years, working with my therapist to try to understand more. I guess I felt I did feel that I guess I knew I felt that. Give me enough time and effort and hard work and I will fix this problem. I will solve this problem and not understanding not understanding much about mental health at all really. And so. Yeah, so that was interesting. I'm sure my psychologist. Yeah, he was extraordinary, very, very supportive of my decision. And so yeah, so they in terms of an actual point, I do remember distinctly feeling one day, oh my gosh, I feel amazing. And of course, everything changed when I took my weaned off the medication, which is important to do. But after that, when I really dug deep, when I really dug deep after sort of taking myself off, and hitting the lows, again, but still more functional at this point, I realized that I wasn't fulfilled professionally. And I started to explore where my next professional step might be. So that was quite a journey. So it was quite a protracted period of time where I explored my options. And as we know, with purpose, you kind of figure it out by doing that, yeah, I do remember, having this idea that everything that was once important to me before, like I had, I had a coupe, I had a shiny red sports car, I had, you know, I had lots of life's lovely trimmings, because I was, you know, had this great new full time job. And, you know, not a lot of other things to spend my money on. And I just realized, oh my gosh, like, that's just, it just doesn't make you happy. That's just not what life's about. And so I do remember having those very, very strong realizations. But the, the whole journey became a real journey, because I felt that my mental health would continue to improve them, the closer I got to what I felt was really living with more meaning and purpose.

I love that. And I'd like to come back to that. But he has mentioned somebody else there that that I think it's important for people to just be aware of as well, is that you mentioned something there is like wars outside of how you think about life. So to think thoughts come to mind there is we can find what works for us that does fit in with how we think about life. But then I think you could appreciate that, even through that, we have to be open to doing things differently to how we've done them as well, and be open to accepting some things that are outside of what our belief says current belief systems, because otherwise, like how are we going to get different results unless we change something up?

Yeah. Yeah, so true. And I think when, you know, we ended up you know, we live in a world now where, gosh, you just have to open your phone. And if your microphones on, you know, the next thing you'll do, you'll find on, you know, you start talking about dog beds that you next thing, you know, you've got Instagram ads for dog beds, you know, there's it's such a consumerist society. And we were bombarded with all of that these days. But I think, and it's easy for me to say, I suppose, because, you know, I'm very privileged, you know, I do have a comfortable home. And, you know, I understand that I come from a position of privilege saying that, but at the time I was being supported by my parents, you know, I was still trying to work and taking leave and all of that, but just the realization that, that it's not, it's just not the stuff that we have, when sometimes we have to go through a hard experience to kind of really have a real shift in the way that we look at things we absolutely do. And then the science supports that, that, you know, as long as we've got, we're psychologically safe, we're physically safe, we're fed, rewarded, we've got a roof over our heads, and we've got our basic needs met, and good connections. You could earn a million dollars over and above having all of that, and it's not going to make you a million times happier. Not unless you spend it on experiences.

Yeah, all that work has a deep sense of purpose about it, which is what you touched on there. So you talked about, you're doing work in the anxiety space. And that's been a lifelong challenge for you. And what I know about purpose is the very thing that we've been challenged most by is the thing that we are we best at teaching because it comes from that place of experience. So if we think back to those early years, so you said like, basically since the age of four, was it like separation anxiety of going to school with the unknown, like, do you have conscious understanding of what it was when at that age?

I do now, in hindsight, I had a very sick tummy. And so that was my first symptom because we feel anxiety in such a physical way. It's often not really talked about men it is but we really need to understand that the physical side of anxiety is really important to pay attention to so I felt sick. And it was because I know now I came from a house where you My mom was highly anxious. And but it was relatively peaceful home, you know. But going to school, I was in a huge double class of preps. And there was a lot of stress for the teachers, and there was a lot of yelling, there's a lot of tension. And that classic, you know, contagion effect of that stress I picked up on and I would have had the I mean, I do I have the genetic coding, I have the inherited factors which 30 to 35 to 50% of us with anxiety will have inheritance will play a role heredity will play a role. So those genes were just sitting there waiting for some somebody to flick a switch, and that environmental stress was that very switch. And so I would just say to mom, I feel I feel sick, and I don't want to go to school. But she sent me, I'm glad she did.

Yeah, that all makes so much sense. The other thing I know is that when you're an empath, not only are you feeling your own anxiety around that, but you are probably tuning into all those other anxious kids and caring. So you what you're doing now, right holding space for people, you're literally holding space for a whole bunch of kids at the same age. Like, if I look back at that same time, and like all the different challenges around that time, being highly empathic myself, it would have been doing the same, it's trying to get into that pattern of managing a whole lot of other people's stuff. And I don't know if that resonates with you. But it's something that I know that, that people I've worked with, with a fair bit of anxiety, it's often been the case of the magnitude of it infinitely increased because of that, sorry, exponentially increase because of how much I will take it from other people.

You want to one of the things that I very much took on was this sense of responsibility for other people's happiness around me. And that was a real weight. It was a terrible weight, but also lots of anxious thoughts about if somebody is unhappy. What did I do to influence that? If they're unhappy, it must be something I did. And so, you know, at the time, from the physical sense, it was the tummy aches, that was the first sign. But I look back on various stages of, you know, childhood and adolescence, and adulthood, and I can see how it's manifested. And, you know, I was prescribed to Ventolin when I was a teenager, because I was having what I understand now was performance, anxiety, playing high level sport, but it wasn't understood. It was thought to be asthma. And so I can look back and see all the points at which I was really struggling. I looked back in mid primary school I was having I have OCD have struggled with OCD in the past, that it's not that big an issue. It's not, it doesn't get in the way of my life. Now I have a few little quirky things and they're just quirky. Yeah, yeah. So I, I had but I full on OCD around a certain thought when I was in primary school, and even then I got taken to a, I've got to take into a psychologist didn't even he didn't understand. I can only see all this in hindsight at the time, he just like, I don't know what's wrong. I'm worried all the time. I just thought reassurance all the time. I was just constantly asking my mom if everything was going to be okay. And she just say, yep, yep. That's how I got through life for 20 plus years.

It's funny, as you talked about the OCD, I am nodding and then going, oh, yeah, I'm playing with my pen. And then I'm making sure it touches every one of my fingers when I touch one of them. And those sort of things when I'm watching movies or whatever. It's just, I guess it's a coping mechanism of some sort, some sort of order. But yeah, I mean, there's lots of those different things just because we have elements of that doesn't mean it's a problem, it's just, well, then it's only a problem if it becomes a problem. And you've touched on a really important point there around, you can only join the dots looking back, there's a great quote from Steve Jobs where he talks about that, but you've got to put some sort of faith or trust in the future, that you're that you're working out, and then you can join the dots and make sense of it. Now, one of those ways, like making sense of it, you mentioned there's a family history. Is that something you've openly talked about with your mom about like, what her upbringing was like and, and her anxiety and how she went through all those years as well?

Yes, we've we've talked about it a lot. And it's so good because she learns she's learned a lot. She's learned a lot from my experiences. And yeah, she's the eldest of seven. And yeah, Dad The eldest of you see the eldest, not the eldest, but dad's one of eight. So I've got a massive family. And then my poor kids only have one cousin. Nevermind, and the way the cookie crumbles sometimes, but Yeah, Mom was seven. And there were a huge a lot of responsibilities. And her dad had OCD, but not diagnosed. So lots of light flips, light switch flicking very high expectations of order kids into bed early so that all the doors could be locked in. She only came to the realization about her dad, when we, you know, as through professionally, because my area of expertise is anxiety. And I'm having conversations with her about all sorts of things all the time OCD being one of them. And she, she, you know, it sort of, you know, the right moment, the right question, the right opportunity, and you start to reflect and, yeah, so growing up, and that's the thing, some parents feel responsible. And as parents, we can't feel responsible for our children's anxiety. Because we, we get dealt the cards, we're dealt in terms of our DNA. Yeah. And when it comes to anxiety, there's state and then there's trait anxiety. So in terms of our temperament, that's just, you know, the temperament is ingrained. And then state anxiety can be the anxiety that we feel in, you know, as, as a state, which can be changeable, it's completely normal. In response to certain situations, it's actually there to keep us safe. But when it's there's so much anxiety that it's getting in the way of daily functioning, that it's, it's a huge problem. But yeah, I've had lots of conversations with mom. And, you know, I know, mum looks back, and she wishes she could have some had done things differently. But I love to say that, you know, when we know better, we do better, how can we do things differently, when we don't know differently, we just can't, she's a beautiful, loving, amazing woman, and I wouldn't be who I am without her. And I think all the time for instilling in me a real sense of self worth and self confidence. And it means that despite the anxiety that I live with, and the challenges that I've had, I've been able to continue to move forward and, and really make the most of it more than make the most of it. I love my work, I absolutely love my work and couldn't have done what I'm doing without the way I was raised. And so I always say to her, she should give herself really big pat on the back.

I love that. What a gift to give your mom. And I say that to people I work with her we're feeling some level of inadequacy around their parenting. And it's like, yeah, well, you know, you think of what it's given your own setbacks in life I've given you, you just creating some cool things for your children to overcome. And they can be the shining light for how to do that. And I think when you do the work on yourself, you can't help but reflect on your children's journey. And I don't know if you see this in your children, but I just see us going through what we've been through and learning all that we can, it just gives them such an incredible, incredible opportunity to do it at a at a whole other level than what we could ever have. And, and it's like, not your mom's fault. But again, the fact that she did such a great job with what she was dealt is allow those next generations to have that I think even you mentioned her dad. It's like how many people from from her dad's generation would have had undiagnosed PTSD from from wars and all of these different things. And it's no surprise that we're we've got some challenges now, but it doesn't mean there isn't things that can be done about.

That is such an important point. And yes, I think PTSD was a huge part of it, alcoholism as well. And, yeah, it's, that's, you know, the environment that we're raised in does have an influence on on us. But we're so lucky because, you know, podcasts like this and opportunities to learn and grow and to understand ourselves. I think we understand ourselves. We're in a much better position to respond when things happen in our lives. But we can be very reactive, can't we? When, you know, the just the other day, just the other day something happened here and I started very easily. I am and one of the things I noticed was if I feel like if I'm in the kitchen, and I'm by the pantry and a couple of people sort of coming into the pantry in I'm in a situation where I have a small amount of physical space about me, it's like my brain thinks I'm trapped somehow, and I need to get out of there. And it can happen in an instant. And I can, I can flip, you know, very, very quickly from being cool, calm and collected into being highly anxious. And I, I just, I just said the other day to pay off, I'm just realizing these things about myself. And so I can think about them, I can manage where I am and what I'm doing, and also do a little bit of exposure as well, for myself to, you know, one of the things I've got a huge thing about kids putting their fingers in food, like if I'm baking a cake, and my can stick their finger in the cake mix. And it's because do you think I was allowed to do that when I was a kid?

Of course. And,

of course I wasn't. And my mum probably wasn't able to do that. So now I said to my daughter, I said, Right, I'm working on this. I'm gonna work on it, right. So please just wash your hands, like, just do that for me. Just come along, and stick your finger in the batter, right? And, and she gives me this hilarious look like she looks at me like I came on, we're gonna do this together. And she's got this kind of cheeky, kind of smile, like, look what I'm about to do. And so kind of be a bit playful, and try to just recognize, alright, what sort of triggering me don't necessarily understand most of why I react the way I do. But the more we understand ourselves, the more we can work through things and be in a better position to respond or just not react. You know, when she sticks her finger in the batter now, we just, it still makes me kind of inside go, oh, no, at the end of the day, I don't want her to be baking with her kids, and reacting about sticking fingers in the mixture. I mean, it's just such a little thing. But I think this kind of idea translates across, you know, big problems as well. Oh,

absolutely. We'd be the role model rather than like trying to tell them not to do or we just got we've made changes so that we can demonstrate. Always listening to that going, like the washing their hands sing and thinking of it then but then there's soap in that like the the bit I wanted to touch on before we talk about where people can find more about you. You talked about being responsible for other people's stuff. Now, this was a real eye opener for me, because I know, like I grew up very much in that space of feeling responsible and taking on a whole lot of other people's stuff. But then when I saw it reflected back to me through my children, and one particular moment when my son really stands out when I realized he was picking a fight with me because he could tell maybe maybe consciously but probably more unconsciously, that that I had some stuff that I wasn't, wasn't dealing with. And just being able to be aware of that and say to him, don't do what I did that they'd pick a fight with me, like, I'm working through some stuff, but that's not on you mate. That's not your responsibility. Like is that? Are they the sort of conversations you've been able to have with your children, given what you now know about what you've experienced?

Ah, totally, totally, really. It's, it's such a gift to them, isn't it when, in at appropriate times, in age appropriate ways we can have these kinds of conversations. And for me to be able to say, you know, to our daughter maca, and to be able to say, look, I realized this about myself. And I've only realized this in the last six weeks. I mean, I'm telling you like I just tell them off and say, Alright, if you want to have the better, you've got to get a clean spoon. And if you want all you got to get another clean spoon. Like, and then yeah, so to be able to sort of say, Look, this makes me feel anxious. When this is happening. This makes me feel anxious. And now that I've stopped to think about it, I realized that, you know, in the in the scheme of things, this is not a big deal. And that this is something that I can work on all with a view and I don't say this to her but all with a view of how do I want to help shape her nervous system and my son's nervous system. And so we do have those conversations. They do know I live with anxiety. They know I'm medicated from anxiety. They know that this is my life's work, of course, but we can have really good conversations about mental health and about if I am finding myself on on edge on the edge because I've got deadlines, expectations. If I'm having been sleeping well if I've been traveling a lot that I can say. I'm feeling really anxious. So how about you guys go out and play some table tennis. I just need 10 minutes alone while I'm cool In the meal, or? Yep, I wish we could do this together right now. But right now I know I'm not going to be the mom that I want to be. And so how about you start, and I'll go and play with the dog, bounce the trampoline, do something. So what I'm doing is I'm trying to sort of share these ideas that when we can self reflect, we know where we're at. And we know what we need, we can get what we need, and still take care of the people around us. But every now and again, I just react like I did last night. Kids come with me to basketball, and my daughter was spinning the ball right next to me beside the court. And it was driving me nuts. Like, because I was anxious, she was going to drop it was going to go on the court, it was going to trip someone over it would be embarrassing. And it was also just distracting. And I'm just like, right move, you know? I'd asked nicely the first time, I must admit, but I, I didn't speak to her the way I would normally I was more firm than what I just described. And the look I gave her for, if looks could kill, you know. And then we hopped in the car, and I said, Look, I know. I know, I overreacted. I know what you were doing wasn't a big deal. But in that moment, that's how it felt for me. I'm sorry, I spoke to you the way I did. And in front of you. Now there's just another friend of mine from basketball on the bench? Who would have said it? I said I'm sorry, I know that you wouldn't have appreciated that. I just Yeah, I was just feeling anxious. And so even sometimes we do, you know, are human and behaving human, very human ways. I think if we can say to our kids look, come back from it. I'm sorry, that happened. Other times, we're very rightly frustrated and annoyed at them for very good reason. And

a healthy expression of emotions. Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's probably one of the greatest lessons for me too, is that it's actually okay to admit that you weren't right. And you got something wrong, because we're parents, and we're human. And we still make mistakes, believe it or not, as people are helping people still make lots of mistakes as parents.

I know. She said to me the other day, my son doesn't like me talking about him. I don't really talk about him much. But she said to me that he said, Oh, she's 12 grade six. So having a kid in 2022, I said try being a parent, honey. Just try being a parent.

The word that comes to mind as you went through all of that was that still, all of us peeling back that needing to control our external world, instead of just coming back to the only part we really can control which is which is self. That's a whole other can of worms, we get to unpack, but I do know you have to go speaking of children and go and pick them up. So can you just quickly tell us a little bit more about your two books specifically on anxiety? And where people can find you, Jody?

Oh, yes, yes. So Thanks. And thank you so much. Yes, I wrote co wrote anxious kids how children can turn their anxiety into resilience with Michael growth. Who's parenting educator, so your listeners might be familiar with Michael's work. And I wrote anxious moms how moms can turn their anxiety into strength. And I wrote that in lockdown when I was more anxious than I've been in a long time. So the irony, but really, really two really important books to support. So the anxious kids is really for parents and teachers to read, to support young people that they work with, right through to, you know, year 12, even pass some parents have older kids and still get a lot out of it. And my podcast is, well, hello, anxiety. And that's about let's turn around and say hello, and understand this thing for what it is, and learn how to live life with it. And so, yeah, my website is Dr. Jody Richardson, and I'm on Instagram and Facebook. So yeah, you can find me lots of places.

Awesome, we'll make sure you'll have those links in the notes. Thank you for shining such a positive light on on this challenge that so many have, and so many have experienced. I really appreciate you being so open with the conversation and your story as well. Thank you for having this chat ad.

No. And thank you for inviting me and thank you for giving me time and space and compassion, a compassionate place to, to think about some things I haven't thought about for a while and you've helped me understand myself a little more as well. So thank you very much for the wonderful work you're doing.

You're welcome. I appreciate you saying that. Cheers. Thanks. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief. Let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at a Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform