Living Life To The Fullest with Mark Bowness

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back, you've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request, if any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the and Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it.

Welcome, everyone had a break last week, we're back and this week's guests Mark bonus. How are you Mark?

Unknown Speaker 1:09

I'm awesome. And I'm ready and raring to go buddy.

Ian Hawkins 1:13

Awesome. Great to hear. Now, I did some work with you going back a fair few years. And that was around building a community online. Now I know that's not the only thing you do now. So for the audience, I'd love for you to share more about who you are and what it is that you actually do.

Unknown Speaker 1:33

Yeah, I'd say I'm an entrepreneur. So that means I do lots of things. I've gone from a place of struggling to grow my business to building a multiple seven figure business. And then that brings about kind of money and opportunity. So I run a PR company with a business partner, I help coaches to grow and scale their businesses. And I also am I'm building an app called inspo, which will enable people to receive personalized advice from celebrities, influencers and experts that they look up to and admire. So lots going on the

Ian Hawkins 2:07

plenty, that's cool. And no surprise you're, you're a big picture thinker. So I'm sure you've always got lots of ideas on the go. So within all of that you're an entrepreneur. What what's at the essence of all of those things? So now it's you. But what do you bring to the table? Is it the creating expansion for people? Is that the community aspect? Or is it something else?

Unknown Speaker 2:35

I think ultimately for me, from such a young age, I had this realization, this profound realization that we live life once as far as we know, on planet Earth. And I think that that just captivates me all the time. So, you know, we've got this one opportunity to be here. And so often we live a life that's so substandard to what we can potentially create. And so that I think that's the driving force of everything that I do is to help people to and inspire people to to make that life that they have on planet earth that will one shot just to live it to the full.

Ian Hawkins 3:15

Yeah, and I'm drawn to the one of the projects you've had in the past, which is taking people to an island or getting access to an island and like, you're the sort of person that likes to have dreams those things and makes them happen. Now, I know so many people in my world would have had experiences where they have these different ideas, they might think about it, and then they might, you know, think about the fear and the judgment one of I get it wrong, so So how were you able to be a person like that, where I'm just gonna have, I'm just gonna take this on, I'm just gonna see where this leads, and I'm gonna I've created the vision now I'm gonna actually make it happen.

Unknown Speaker 3:54

It's interesting, because I think I've always been like that from from such a young age. So when I was younger, say in my teens, I I was I was passionate about being in the TV world and the TV industry. And at one point, there wasn't to a TV production company in the country. I was living in the UK that didn't know about me and what I was up to are sending them monthly updates as to my journey to make it in the TV world. And I was you know, I was doing my mates were kind of kick around the park and I was doing work experience at the BBC in London at the weekends. And whenever I did anything like that I would then get in touch with my local newspaper and I was always in the local newspaper for for doing something but I've always been like that and I kind of don't know where that comes from but how it accelerated and I will go deeper into this was a i and we discussed before we went live about how I actually got to a stage in my life where life was tough and I attempted to take my own life. And, and so when you talk about this island business that I created, I did that off the back of attempting to take my own life. So I launched a global business having not built a business before it was global from day one. But my understanding was, well, if, if I lost his business, and it doesn't work, and I go bankrupt, it doesn't matter, because I'm still here. So so the comparison was, was almost I can risk everything, because what I nearly lost was literally everything.

Ian Hawkins 5:37

Yeah. Again, we were talking before we came on about how that eventuated was that? Was that the moment that changed everything for you? Or was it something that in the lead up to that? What What was that moment where were you were suddenly saw life in a completely different way?

Unknown Speaker 6:01

I think I've got to give the context. So I'm one of six children from the UK, now living in Australia, and we were brought up in the Christian world, you know, we went to Sunday school every Sunday morning, and, and that's just we had, you know, Bible meetings, and during the week on our home, and we just, we were just bought up in that Christian community and, and all the values and belief system that comes along with that. And so, I, I ended up studying theology, so I studied Theology and Religious Studies for three years. And I, but I'd always known that at least, I struggled with my sexuality. So I was struggling with my sexuality, that the Bible said that homosexuality was wrong. The community that I was involved with, said that it was wrong. And so I forced myself down this path of, let's call it forced hetero sexuality, like, I was forced to heterosexual. And so I got married, I got married at a young age, I believe that either either a God could heal me of my sexuality, or be that I could love any individual, let's say, irrespective of the outside bits, it's, it's the essence of the person that I could love. But it got to the point where, you know, you're, you're growing up and, and, of course, you know, you become more aware of your sexuality or sexual desires, let's say. And so I just, it was just, it just got to this place where I was speaking on stages, like, like Christian stages, all over the UK, I'd written a Christian book, I was publishing two magazines every quarter. I was really growing in the Christian world, and yet, my life was crumbling apart. Because I was having arguments with my wife, I knew that I was struggling with my sexuality. And so I actually got to the stage where I'd went to church leaders about this. And I've experienced everything II and like the, the church leaders laying hands on me to expel the demon of homosexuality from me like this. It's it's funny to reflect on now, but incredibly painful at the time. I got to the stage where my marriage was over. And so my wife walked out and I Googled, most quickest and painless way to die. And that night, I attempted to take my own life. And I did so because I just couldn't see any way out. But the hardest thing to do was to come out to myself, let alone anybody else.

Ian Hawkins 9:02

Leading up to that point, the pressure must have been immense. And I imagine a lot of that would have been what you are placing on yourself. So what was that experience? Like? How did you like even get to that point? Because I imagine forcing yourself as you described, like, if you force yourself in any area of your life, it's a challenge but in for something that's such a big part of your life in terms of your who you are. And then another massive part of your life, which is how you've been brought up and family, the church all those things like the Master spend this swirling sea of all sorts of war confusion, I imagine and pressure.

Unknown Speaker 9:46

Yeah, I mean, growing up before before I got married, growing up, I was. I remember as a teenager, we had a dartboard and I remember, like so vividly. I was throwing darts. What's at this dartboard? Because I was so I was struggling with my sexuality so much. And I was literally just throwing this dartboard at the dartboard. And I was saying, I was literally saying, God, if you want me on your team, let it hit. I don't know 10 Satan if you want me on your team, you know, and and it was that extreme in my mind, because I've been brought up in this environment, where were the innate feelings that I had was so against God and God's desires as to who we create how he created human beings to be. So, you know, I was in a Pentecostal church, it was very charismatic was very against homosexuality. So it was constantly this internal battle and, and even, you know, having thoughts about guys, I scolded myself, every time I did it, like mentally. It was, it was awful, it was horrible. I mean, kids go through enough when they're dealing with sexuality and growing up and through puberty, and all that kind of stuff. And it just internal intense battle all the time. So I, I kind of just decided to surrender and go down the god route, thinking that that that it would all get better that it would all change in it. And it didn't.

Just me listening to that, like, it sounds exhausting. But like, a must have taken its toll on you physically, mentally, and emotionally.

Yeah, and I think the other side of that is, look, I'm, I'm always upfront about, you know, what I've been through and what, what's gone on? And so, I was in the question while I was married, as I said, But, you know, I, I did cheat on my wife with with men, you know, it was a, and that was the, the time in my home mind, I was a classic Jerry Springer TV show, you know, my, my husband, gone off with his best friend or whatever, you know, whatever. I, in my own mind, where that placed me was the lowest of the low not only was I gay, which is against what I was taught in terms of homosexuality in terms of the Bible, and Christianity and what God does or doesn't love, but then I'd also sin by cheating on my wife. So in my mind, I was the I was the worst of the worst, I was like, this individual that are just, you know, I had no self respect.

So you have that moment where you've taken your own, well, you've attended take your own life, like, was it like, you took pills or something, then you suddenly woke up in a hospital I worked like, and it's okay, if you're sharing. It's okay. If you're, I'm asking, sorry. Is this okay? If you share this, by the way?

Yeah, so yeah, I took a whole bunch of pills. In a house on my own with alcohol. And, and I was kind of going out. I mean, I've, I've actually never spoken about this at this level, which is fine. But I was going in and out of consciousness. And I'll never forget, there was this. There was this bang on the door. And I kind of ultimately dragged myself out of bed and an open the door and, and there was nobody there. And whether that was real or whether it was in my mind, I don't I don't know. But I am convinced, like there was bang at the door, and there's nobody there. And I just knew that I had to, I just had to call an ambulance. And that's what I did. I just got full body

tingles pins and needles to work through that. I've also experienced one of those knocks on the door. Really, part of me knew that there would be no one there. And of course, there wasn't. And mine came in a dream. So a little bit different, but it sounds like you're kind of in that sort of dream state. And, for me, it's like that's, that's the higher calling, right? It's like you've got something bigger. So have you thought about that knock on the door as being something like that, or you haven't really like looked at it that way?

Yeah, well, I think afterwards, I told some people about that. And they were like, no, no, nobody knocked on the door, you know, and whether they did or didn't I? I heard it you know, as far as I'm concerned, I heard it and whether it was, you know, in my mind or in reality, it was the unknown Yeah. So yeah, I, you know, I, I think that's, that's a springboard that's enabled me to just focus on just creating the life that I want. Because that all everything I do is about purpose. And I'm so passionate about purpose. Because of that, like we can just, I nearly wiped out existences versus planets, something pulled me out of that situation, which is, you know, potentially ironic that I was in the church for many, many years speaking on stages, and all this kind of stuff. And yet, there was this, call it divine intervention or whatever you like, the pulled me out of the depths of what I was nearly in. So yeah, yeah, I acknowledge the fact that it did something somewhere, somehow someone changed my life.

Oh, man, because that wasn't lost on me either. And that was gonna be one of my questions before you said that. But now I'm even more intrigued. I grew up in a Christian background as well. And I eventually got to the point where I can't do all of those bits that I don't like. So rather than trying to find a way that made it work, I just went completely the opposite direction, right. And I switched off from any sense of spirituality in that time. Now, having come back to that place of spirituality, not through a through a lens or lens of a church or a particular religion, but through my own connection. I'm curious to know, have you been able to make peace with God or the universe or however you want to put it or higher power? And if so, how have you been able to do that?

It's a great question. And, you know, I think I went through various stages. So after, after I tended to take my own life I, I wanted to get for some reason, wants to get back into the church as quickly as possible, because it's all I knew, like, I knew the church community, I didn't know the, what was called the secular world, because I'd never lived in it. So I went to an extremely Pentecostal Church, which was an awful experience and left very quickly. I was angry, I was angry at God, for so long, I was angry with a God that I didn't know whether I, whether I existed or wasn't sure that I existed for so long. Like, like, if, if God really cared and really loved me, why would he allow me to go through this right? And then I came to this understanding that like, in, in my Christian world, and Christian life, when I was speaking on stages, and speaking in churches not going to stuff, I was so adamant, I was so accurate, because I knew the Bible inside out. And, and anybody could check a Bible verse out me and I could explain the context and explain, you know, the corresponding kind of belief in the Bible. And I came to this realization that, that, that, the, the, the next one, it says, The finite so that which ends that's what that which has been created and ends, right can never comprehend the mind of the infinite. So if, if God, my understanding was if God was real, for all of my life, I've thought, God's real. And I'm telling everybody exactly what God believes in exactly what God says. And that's absolute nonsense. How can how can the Creator understand the mind of the Creator? Yeah. And that's the piece that I've kind of got to the, you know, we live in this an incredible world and whether it's been divinely created or not, there is there's such a beauty and order in the world that that to connect with that at a beyond the, you know, beyond the everyday level, but to a spiritual level actually brings depth to who we are as human beings. And I'm sure that this isn't the only life that we're going to live but you know, I'm excited for that journey.

Me too, and I share that same belief I love how you articulated that. I'd love to dig a bit more there if if that's okay, just around the aftermath of that because I imagine that that would have created a fair bit of trauma around take attended take your own life. And then everything that like you said, that was that you said basically that it was a night where your marriage was over, and all these other things playing out, you're you're heavily involved in the church, all of these things come crashing down. It must have had ongoing impacts for you from a from a particularly mental and emotional perspective.

It impacted me from every point of view. So So again, the content So I was I was a church leader in a church, and I was running a Christian ministry in a church, my friends were in the church, you know, so so when they got out, and essentially Mark, who was a church leader has had, you know, an outside of marriage with a man. I was, everything was stripped from me. So we're talking about my, my, the kind of Christian ministry, the nonprofit organization that I had was taken off me, my income was stopped immediately, I was excommunicated from the church, at the age of, I'd say, 24, maybe I had to move back to the side of the UK to, to live with my parents once I've built this life for myself. And so living where my parents were, you know, of course, all my friends that were at school had gone on to Union built their own life, I literally had nothing I had no, because I've been working in the Christian world, I had no job, I had nothing. And so it, it, battered my head for a long time, I was angry. And when I got back what my for a long time, my mum said that, like, she would often say that I was physically there. But mentally, it was like I was, I was checked out. I was struggling to mentally survive, literally.

What a blessing to have your parents allow you to come back to your home, because that seems normal for most of us. But I also know many people in your situation, that wouldn't have been okay, either. So so what what was their reaction? Like? Like? Like, how did they process it?

Yeah, it's interesting. So I mean, for a long time, I didn't tell them like, you know, I got divorced in the divorce papers, stated the fact that I'd had a relationship with that guy hid that from my parents. I didn't tell them for a while. And I knew that I had to kind of conquer telling my dad first. And, and so I took him out to the pub, and after a few drinks, I told him, and I struggled, because the first time I said to him, this is literally the context. The first time I said to my dad, Dad, I've got somebody to tell you, he said to me, you're not quitting uni. You're not having any more money, you know? And I was like, no, no, it's nothing like that. I said, I'm engaged to be married. And he was like, I'm so happy. She's lovely. I'm so excited. So the next kind of data, I've got something to tell you. Was datum gay. And, you know, I'll never forget his response. And we went back recently to the UK, and I was talking to my partner about it then. But he said to me, he said to me, Mark, I don't believe it's biblical. But there's lots of things that I've done in my life that aren't biblical, either, and therefore, I can't judge you. And and I love that response. Because it was, here are my principles. This, I'm still this is still what I believe. Yeah. Well, I'm on the same plane level as you and that was just an amazing conversation. And then that's all from a tough Yeah. And I told my mum, and my mum said to me, she said, Mark, you know, last year for Christmas, I bought you High School Musical the DVD. That was like an olive branch.

I've always known.

Oh, wow. Yeah, it must have my like, I don't know, tell me relief, but also then like, oh, wow, I wish I'd had this conversation like, oh, well, how did that sort of play out for you?

Yeah, look, as I said, the hardest thing to do is to come out to myself, every book coming out to anybody else was still tough. But, you know, I knew my parents would would not have an issue. They loved me for who I am. But I suppose I'm not this is not I'm not blaming my parents here at all. But But I did think, gosh, if I'd have if I'd have had the courage to come out earlier, then I wouldn't have been through half the things that I've been through, you know, I wouldn't make my life my path would be so different. And of course, you know, within this, and I can't negate this, you know, you know, I married somebody who was a beautiful woman, and I knew that once she walked out that marriage, I'd never see her again. And so there was not an I hadn't I've never seen it, I haven't. And so there was the pain of going struggling with my sexual ality. And there was the pain of taking somebody else on board that journey that was equally left in pain that didn't deserve to be on that journey. And, and that was tough. Like she was an awesome woman, you know, I don't know. Now, I've known her for many years. But she didn't deserve that either. And, and, you know, there's all that regret around. I wish I'd done things differently if I hadn't come out earlier. And none of that can be changed.

Yeah, absolutely. So how did you find your strength again, Mark. So going through all of that, having to overcome all of the grief and pain that comes out the other side of that as you as you, as you said, Come out to yourself? Yeah, how did you find that your own inner power and strength to get?

There was, as I say, it was incredibly painful, painful, at the same time. There was just relief. Not to not not to be the gay guy that quote, a musical, but you know, the greatest showmen, there's that song that says, This is me. And it was it was just like, Finally, like, this is me, and this is who I am. And if you if you like it, if you like me, awesome. If you don't, I don't care, I think, in ad for for so long to try and build this pretense, or build this image and fit this kind of mold that that everybody else wanted me to be in that it as you said earlier, it was exhausting. So finally, it was like, I've just accepted who I am. And like, this is it like if you if you want to be mates, awesome, if you don't, I don't care anymore. I'm done.

And sometimes we have to go to the absolute wall to the depths of our soul to come to that point. But there's something that you said there is like, the more you stepped into who you truly were, that that's that sense of self like the relief that comes with that. So anyone listening to this, if you know that there's part of you, no matter what we're talking about, like whether it's a project, you know, you need to go and pursue a higher purpose or whatever else? Or if it is your sexuality, the relief that comes like and then exactly what you described is and how different could my life have been if I'd actually done this sooner.

Sorry, go play yoga. Rock bottom was the beginning of the revelation of my purpose. And I think so many people know that they are on the edge of a rock bottom moment, whether it's relationships, career, finances, health, even. And we're it's like, we're, we're on the edge, we don't want to fall into rock bottom, because we're scared of what that is, whether it's the judgment of others, or what the eventuality of that might become. But sometimes we have to accept rock bottom to, to then allow ourselves to become the most beautiful, authentic, congruent, happy version of ourselves. But I often wonder how many people are skirting on the edge of rock bottom, not willing to fall in because they're scared of the unknown, but not realizing what could be if they allowed themselves just to hit that place?

100%. And I'd take that to another level and, and ask everyone to go within and think, have I actually already had that rock bottom? Because I don't know if it's the same with you. But when you're helping people find their story. That's one of the things that you showed me, right is like, what was that catalyst for change moment? I think most people when they get to sort of adult age 30s 40s 50s they've already had that rock bottom. But how many more rock bottoms are you going to go through before you actually take the action? So now getting to more of what it is you do today, or the journey to getting there. So you've you've found this place of the relief of being true to yourself. I imagine the healing would have continued because grief doesn't just stop and then everything's good. There's like there's more layers and more layers and they can keep coming time and time again, like I can remember nearly 11 years to the day after my dad passed just walking home and just getting hit by a wave of emotion and just tears out of nowhere. So it continues. But if you think about like all the you had overcome and then building that strength again, like how much that actually gave you the young build what you've built Instant.

Yeah, and I'd say that the self confidence or having building confidence was something that took a long time. Whether it's in business, I always knew that I could be successful. I've always instinctively just known that I've never worked for anybody else ever in my life. And I'm fortunate to be able to say that but, but it's only when I truly became confident in myself, and accepted, accepted, and not just accepted my sexuality, but accepted the fact that I cheated on my wife with another guy. Yeah, I accepted just just the fact that these things happened. It's okay. It doesn't make me a bad person. Like I, I was so engrossed, like, I was walking through my life, even though I'd come through this, but I was still angry, I was angry with, like, how, how could somebody do that? How could I do that, at that point in time in my life, how can I treat somebody like that, you know, and it's, well, I just came to that place of acceptance of it happened, and that that act was wrong, but that's not me, that's not who are intrinsically who I am, then then everything just felt more peaceful. And that competence of just, you know, Mark, you're an awesome person, and enabled me to scale my business and, and just grow in the most amazing ways in my business and, and building a, I was always hitting this wall in business of like, $100,000 a year. And it was that just that acceptance of who I am and what I am, that enabled me to hit multiple seven figures just because I was happy and confident

I'd love to hear more about that journey. So because I think about how many people watching this who would be early on in their business journey. So you go from that place of rock bottom, like did you get help? Did you have mentors along the way? Did you go through processes were you released elements of that grief of that trauma of that pain? Like what what are some of those steps along the way that that not only helped you to get where you are now but actually allows you to be the expert in helping other people to do exactly the same thing.

So I I dealt with a lot on my own badly to start with and so I raced into this business so I wanted to keep myself busy so I launched this crazy idea and Lisa turn Drake Island Fiji it became a TV show in three countries it was insane and and look just honored and I'll use the word blessed but like six months after attempted to take my own life notice three months after attempted to take my own life. I was in 200 media outlets around the world I was on Good Morning, America Today Show New York Times this thing was being filmed as a TV show. And yet, my confidence still wasn't there. I was relying on I was still dealing with all the trauma that we've just discussed. I was relying on my business partner to make it happen. And so yeah, so I was still it's been a lengthy process. I, I moved to Australia. And I, yeah, I was still struggling, I actually would turn to drink. I was drinking and it was awful. And I was still just dealing with how could I? How could somebody do that to somebody else? I used to look, I'll be honest, I used to send messages to my ex wife on Facebook having drunk alcohol begging her for her forgiveness. I never got a response. And I don't necessarily blame her. But I'm talking about that the internal turmoil that I was going through. And so I actually went to, to see a psychologist or a counselor, as it were, it was not psychologists, a counselor. And I just, I just said, Look, I'm just gonna lay it all on you. I just I just needed to tell somebody, everything, you know, cheating on my wife with a guy and it was just everything. And those four or five sessions were just so good. It was like, Finally somebody knows this secret that I have. That my bonus is the worst human being to ever have bought on Planet Earth, which is what was in my mind, you know, to have somebody just rationalize that with me was just that that was, you know, the beginning of that awesome journey.

Yeah, and I just want to honor you for that, because it's what so many people, particularly men aren't doing enough of, and that's talking, and the relief and the release that comes from just opening up because like you said, we often have those conversations with ourselves as talking about ourselves to ourselves as the worst human being in the world. Doesn't have to be that way. And, and just having a voice and having that space. So important.

And also the opposite. So the opposite was, there was was, as I say, it's kind of mentally beating myself up, but instead of talking to people going to drink, you know, and I knew there were times that I'd be in the shower at 10 o'clock in the morning, I knew by midday I would be in the pub, and it got to the stage where it was almost like nothing could stop this happening. It was an eventual eventuality. And then what that what that nearly cause was, I would then be so angry, I was angry drunk in the I'll be messaging my partner, and same sex relationship now and, and that, that hangover of not dealing with the previous stuff, nearly became the thing that destroyed my current relationship. And, and my partner said, I can't do this anymore. Like, like, if this is the way things are going to be, then, you know, we're gonna have to end this relationship because I can't live like this. And it was fun. And I remember, there was one day when I was going to do my walk to the pub, I was going to walk to the pub, and I was walking to the pub, and that's where I was heading. And I knew that if I continued to walk to the pub, then my relationship would be over my mind. You know, everything. When was this going to end. And that day, I walked past the pub, and I literally walked 30,000 steps in that day, and I didn't stop walking. And for me, it was just walking just to get this out of my system, you know, just to keep going. And that's when I decided to give up alcohol and haven't drunk since but it was my point there is that, you know, it's so easy to beat ourselves up, not tell anybody but to allow it to destroy ourselves internally, because we're not sharing it.

What what sort of played out? Because it's almost seems like a second rock bottom moment to to motivate you to stop drinking. Was there? Was there other stuff going out going on in your life? Were there other relationships or like anything else that was happening that that had you going, okay, something's got to change.

It was the impact that well, it was the impact it was having on my partner, and also the impact it was having on my business because you know, if you're hungover and you've got, you know, you've got days where you're not working, because you were drinking or hungover, then it slows down slows down the growth of your business. So you're looking at it was just destructive. And I just, it was still I think, you know, if we, I think what's interesting here is that the, if we talked about the context of what I've just shared with you, and there was that coming out, and to myself, and being accepting of that, then there's the, the kind of hangover of the implications of my actions, which led to guilt, and then there was dealing with the guilt. And as you grow older, and you mature, it's like, how could that person have done that to somebody else? You know, so, so you're so this grief, and this dealing with this, and this getting yourself back to full health is an evolutionary process. And that's what I was working through. So now I've accepted the fact that man, there are times when, you know, I still every now and then I'll have a dream about my ex wife that was That was many years ago. And I'm acceptance of the fact accepting of the fact that I still struggle with who I was then. But these are a grateful reminders that I'm grateful for, because if I've either walked away, gone, screw her, the world was wrong. You know, I'm grateful of the fact that there's still this element of guilt because ultimately, I'll say this, I know how beautiful I am.

Love it. Now, you mentioned how in your previous life or one of the better expression, you had this community and you were basically kicked out Is that a conscious decision for the work that you've done since then around helping and creating a number of different communities and then helping other people build communities? Because there wasn't part of you that then had to go and find a new community?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I loved the community of the church, we'd be in each other's houses, we'd be eating and drinking, and you know, we'd have people turn up to our house, and they just open the fridge and help themselves. I love being in that environment. I loved it. And, you know, we'd have sleepovers at the church, and it was such a, you had people around you and loved it. And when I came out of that, as I've explained, you know, I came back to living with my parents, no, literally no friends, nothing. And so I miss that community. And, yeah, I think community has been so important to me, because I've experienced it and lost it. And I know that, like, even even then getting out into the kind of the gay community and building relationships there that have helped me to become who I am, I know the importance of community and, and yes, I'm madly passionate about helping people to build communities that can change people's lives.

Love it more and sharing with us what, what you see is the importance of community.

Quite simply, people, you know, we just live in this world, we're so busy now, we're also busy. And obviously, as a result of COVID, we, we've seen less of people, even now, you know, you go into the supermarket and stuff and people are still I'm incredibly weary. You know, being in, in big in, amongst a lot of people, right. And just that power of human connection of just sitting down and talking to one another openly, honestly, you know, sharing what's going on for us and just, you know, we were built to be in community, we're built to be around people. And we I think it's so easy for us to think that we're doing that because we can message somebody on Facebook or, or even because we can be around somebody or people physically, but we're still on our phones, right? You know, just that we've missed the importance of community and being around people. And to me, that's that. That's, that's what it's all about.

I love that. So how do you make sure that you now probably still prioritize community for yourself, not just other people's when, when that's part of the work that you do?

It's, again, it's a great question, because I work hard on you know, I constantly charged myself on this, especially as myself and my partner, we've we've moved, we were in Sydney, we've moved back to Melbourne. So you've got to, like building a community from scratch, or building people around you from scratch is so hard. So, you know, we're really pushing ourselves and I'm constantly pushing myself, but we've been going to the golf driving range. We've had, we actually went on Facebook to post in a local group, to ask if there was people that that we could pay, but to come to our house and teachers about gardening, we've got this kind of garden, and I don't know what I'm doing with it. But it's the idea of, it's the idea of like, the kind of the transmission of experience from one generation to another, you know, and it's just kind of embedding ourselves in that community we've got involved in in the gay community and just just hanging out with people I mentioned to you before we went live that myself and my partner have started the surrogacy process, you know, the same sex partner, surrogacy process, and, you know, we're now involved in this community of, you know, Rainbow dads, the gay parents and figuring out how that works. And you know, so just just making sure that we're embedding ourselves in communities, but but also giving ourselves a break and time to chill out as well.

Beautiful getting that balance, right. They you mentioned, yeah, you've mentioned a few times, like you've kept pushing forward at different times. Now, I know you're a big picture thinker. And you you're awesome at creating big visions and so I imagine a lot of the time you're you're just getting new ideas all the time, like constantly new ideas and new ideas. Is that where you find that flow where it does become effortless and there's less than that push or is it somewhere else that you get there?

I think for me, it's it's the, the ability to create something from scratch that didn't exist prior. I just I just I love this and I'm so fascinated by it big As everything that you see feel touch, every automobile plane, like everything has been conceived in the mind of somebody who then worked incredibly hard to turn that thing into reality. And, and that is just the magic of human creation to me. And I love that. And, and I'd say when I was so younger, but even, you know, even 10 years ago, I was very much creative. And yeah, I'm still am, but my partner is quite the opposite to me, and would constantly talk to me about the concept of scaffolding. And my partner would be very much like, you've got these dreams and these ideas, but you will need to start here on when the dream is at the top. But we need to layer these things in and build towards it, otherwise, it's never going to happen. And for quite a while, I was quite resistant to that. And I was like, how entrepreneurs like me work because you're in the corporate world. And suddenly, this kind of sunkid this concept of, you know, just not just having random ideas that never come to anything. But building and that's what my partner instilled in me. And yeah, and so I now feel like I have a balance of creative ideas, but but making sure that there's a process in place to turn them into reality. That's how I feel I can help my clients too.

Yeah, that sounds like you're, you're a great connection from that sense is that you really complement complement each other? Well, it made me think of some of the work that I've done with people who have gone through traumatic breakups and ending relationships and their challenges around them finding a new relationship. You're in a a happy, loving partnership now, what were the challenges, like getting to that place where you were even ready to contemplate spending your life with someone else?

So So as I've gone through the process in the UK, and I was living with my parents, and then I was kind of doing some consultancy with the business that I had, and the business that I had in terms of the business and Fiji gave me a lot of opportunities. So I was like, I started to, let's say, heavily explore my sexuality. And, you know, I was like, a kid in a candy shop when it came to like a gay bar. Or I remember my first my first Pride in Manchester, and I was like a, like a kid in a candy shop. I was this is incredible. Yeah, you know, good looking guys, but also just people that are attractive, because they are proud of who they are. And they fully accept that. So and then I then move to London. And again, when we talk about building communities, I moved to London to work for a TV production company called Endemol. And my job was coming up with the ideas for TV shows, it was a consultant. So they employed me on my terms. And so I got into this trap of going to bars to find love, you know, because I didn't, I didn't have any friends. So I just go to Soho in London and, and hang out there and my mum was very much like you will you're not gonna find a partner and a gay bar and all this kind of stuff. Anyway, three years down the track.

And you would think i'll show you mum.

Well, I did get to the stage that maybe she's right. Guys in bars, or only after one thing, you know, that kind of stuff. And anyway, I was I was running a business and had this really kind of difficult day in business. And this is incredible. So I went to that was in London in Soho. So I just finished early and went to this bar. And in this bar was this guy, this guy was Australian. And he was in the UK for three days on a European part of a European trip. His friends had gone off to the Stonehenge for the day, and he didn't want to so he went into the gay bar. And so we're just started talking. We'd had a few drinks, he said, Hey, would you like to grab some dinner tonight with me? And in my mind, I'm like, like, why would I do that? Why would I just accept dinner from some random guy? But I said yes. So we started to hang out together for the rest of the three days we hung out together. We ended up having a long distance relationship for two years. And then we got to the stage where one of us has to make a decision. And and I decided to move to Australia. And we've been together now for I think it's 11 years. But that was a sliding doors moment where if my business wasn't going basically really bad at the time and I didn't leave early. My partner friend, Matt, he didn't want to go to Stonehenge. It was just one of those moments that literally just changes the trajectory of our lives. I move to Australia.

Amazing. Do you do you miss or call at home? But in homes Australia now but do you miss where you came from?

Yeah, look, I think, I don't know. I certainly miss my family. It was horrible to be in COVID. And, you know, I didn't see my family for three years. During that time, I found out that my dad had a cancer diagnosis as well, which was just heartbreaking. Luckily, he's, he's doing very, very well. But I think, look, I'll be honest, and say that I think there were so many parts of the UK that actually have a bit of a negative experience for me, because in the church, I was travelling everywhere, and there was the marriage. And so I don't miss the UK. Because of that, like, everywhere I go in the UK, there's some sort of, you know, pain attached to it, right? Yeah. But I obviously desperately is miss my family.

Yeah, I bet. You've mentioned TV a few times, and you weren't in it from a different place. Does. What do you enjoy this this medium? Like getting in front of a camera and or just a microphone and talking? Or is it more that behind the scenes creativity, like

when I was a kid, I always wanted to be on TV, like, like I would, I would put together the show reels, and send them off to people that when there's Saturday morning children's TV show in the UK, and this was the confidence that I had. So Saturday morning TV show and, and the presenter announced that he he was quitting. And this was live TV. So I sent I sent my showreel. And I sent a letter to the producer. And I literally said to the producer of this show, I said you don't need to look for a TV presenter anymore. You need to stop your suck, literally. Because here I am, you know, like, I've never presented TV before. I've never done live TV before. That's the kind of cockiness and confidence that I had. And that led to that led to him saying, No, you're not right for this, but why don't you come and so there was a TV show called record breakers. And they invited me to do work experience at the BBC. And it opened up an incredible deal for me. But I was always passionate about kind of being on TV. I don't know why. And I just love the medium of TV and, you know, helping people to change and transform their lives and inspire people make people cry and whatever level that is. So you know, I love this stuff. But I I'm really, I'd love to get back into TV one day.

Yeah, one day, I love it. That seems like a good fit for you. You certainly come alive in front of in front of a camera. You mentioned early on that going through what you went through as a youngster those challenges around like then the confusion around your sexuality and and particularly amplified through the church. How do you go from that age? No confidence or really lacking confidence in so many areas to pain that you describe in Kochi young fellow going and sending that sort of letter and, and reel to a TV station.

And I think look, and that happened I sent that before I was married. What's interesting is when we early you asked me about grief and different stages of my life that I experienced grief. And there was this one kind of moment where I had worked towards going to university in the UK called Bournemouth University. It was the best course in the country for media production. It was I've worked my my entire career for this. In my career, my education, and I got a place and I was so happy. This was the other side of the UK. And I went for a couple of semesters, but I I lost confidence and the reason that I lost confidence is because I was struggling with my sexuality at school. I was I mentioned earlier before we started recording that I felt the grief of being the odd one out, you know, because because all the boys were playing football and sport and that was never me. I was kind of into drama. And you know, I was launching a school radio station and but I was always the odd one out and there was that safety, still tough but the local kind of world that I was in my local community you walk down to the shops, and then I've had this big dream to go to this university and and suddenly my own and kind of internal struggle with myself, hindered me from building relationships, building friendships, I felt like the odd one out there, you know, everybody else is building relationships and hanging out and going out to clubs and and I was just I didn't know who I was what I was. And so my, my confidence stopped me, I actually move back home again. And that's when I went and studied theology like totally different courts, and that I have I have grief still around. What would happen? If I'd have just had that confidence then? So kind of to answer your question, I was confident up until a point in the safety of my own community, but still doubting myself. And then I struggled with my sexuality, a struggle to figure out who I was. So there was this big kind of chiasm of going to go to university, became involved in the church through theology, getting married, and then out the other side, where I was then dealing with my sexuality. So from those years, I wasn't confident I was trying to figure it out. I was making it up, you know, as I went along, and then it was only through finally, this, this is me, that I then just excelled in, in kind of my confidence. So, yeah, I've always been cocky and confident. But not true. If that. Yeah. But if that's not founded on a deep sense of knowledge of who you are, it's not real cockiness and confidence.

Yeah, I'm drawn to one of the programs that I know that you've had in the past, I don't know if he's still doing doing this, but helping people to get into the media themselves. Like it's a path that you've known. It's a path that from all you've described, it was quite effortless, right. And so I'm curious about what's next for you? Is it is it, like, part of it is like, clearly getting back into TV? Because you said you'd love to do that at some point? Is it? Is it helping people in this particular area? And I got lots of different projects, but maybe more what's, what's the sort of at the essence of who you are? That's going to be part of that expansion?

And yeah, we've talked about lots of different things. And you know, that is, is the kind of spirit of an entrepreneur, so the stuff that we originally talked about, that you and I connect with, with with regards to communities, I have somebody that work with me building that in terms of PR, yes, so I work with a client as she runs a PR company, and her business did very well. And I saw the opportunity to help coaches, consultants and experts to get in the media and small businesses. And so I actually invested in building so I actually own a PR company, the Susie's running that that's kind of the media side. But look, if I pull it right back and talk passionately. The idea of the app that I'm working on is inspo. And and if we go right back to when I Googled most quickest and painless way to die, I'm building this app inspo, which enables people to ask celebrities influencers, experts questions and receive personalized responses to help them to improve their lives. And that goes back to exactly that moment. When I didn't Google counselor psychologist, I didn't have anybody, like if I think that right if this app existed now. And I could ask a leading gay icon, how they overcame their sexuality and how they came out. Just that knowledge would have transformed my life very quickly in that moment. So this app is about providing people with the knowledge wisdom and experience that they don't yet have learning from those that do what they look up to, to create those pivotal points in their life that can take them on these incredible journeys. So that's what I'm desperately in deeply passionate about building

awesome now I don't know if you've made this part of it, but to me it one of those influences should be yourself because from everything you've talked about, you've you've walked the path so you know what that journey looks like. So at a micro level what's what's the best bit of advice you could give someone who is going through difficult times and like you said they can they keep pushing until they hit that rock bottom, but but how do they stay out of getting to that place like what's the best advice you can give them to move forward in a more positive way?

Look, we can talk about techniques and you know, counseling tools and resources and all of that is awesome, but I can only share the the boiled down piece of advice that I gave myself, which is it's truly understanding this One simple statement that we live life once. If I'm in a relationship that, you know, it's constant arguments, we're both unhappy, but we're just there or financial situation or a career or, or have a dream that I want to pursue for my life, and I'm not doing it. If we actually give ourselves a moment, whatever we're going through, whether it's alcohol, drugs, whatever, you know, if we give ourselves a time for reflection, and truly appreciate that this, this gift that we have, which is called being a human being on planet Earth is a gift. And it's so special, and incredible. If we truly understand that, then we would make the changes that we need to make in our lives to truly live that gift that we've been given

our beautiful. Talk about the gift in the grief, and you've just summed it up perfectly. It's like through everything that you've been through treaty every day, like a gift. Magic, Mark, and I really appreciate you and appreciate how open you've been and sharing things a lot. You said you haven't really shared and other platforms. I know. People will take so much value from this chat and from from all that you've shared, so thinking.

Well, thank you so much for the opportunity and for providing the space, buddy. Appreciate it. You're welcome.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief. Let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at a Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform