Ep 444 - A Unique Look At Balance with Bara Cerna

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfillment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back, you've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request, if any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the Ian Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work, I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it.

It's amazing when you chat with someone that on the surface looks like they come from a completely different background and different experience. And yet there's been so much in this conversation with Barbara siRNA that I related to that I resonated with we and funnily enough, we talk a lot about balance, right? So despite the fact that we come from these different upbringings, the balance of the conversation meant that that we got so much wisdom and so much goal out of this conversation. Bearer shares how disconnecting from her family at quite a young age and how there was a great deal of anger within her inside her that needed to be processed that needed to come out. And as longtime listeners of this podcast will know, this is something that I've talked a lot about myself, I've had challenges with that. So we talk about the addiction of anger, we talk about the impact of family. And we talk a lot about balance and how important balances. It's a bit of a buzzword in so many areas. But it is a crucial part of the extremes of life, that you can be drawn from one extreme to the other. But ultimately, we need to come back to center. And despite the fact that it is a bit of a overused word, it's still one of the most important parts of your self improvement journey. Enjoy this chat. I certainly did.

Everyone and please welcome my guest today. Barbara siRNA. Barbara, how are you?

Unknown Speaker 2:39

I'm great. Thank you so much for having me.

Ian Hawkins 2:42

You are welcome. Thank you for coming on. Now in, in Australia, whenever whenever I've traveled like for us Anglo Anglo Australians fairly simple most of us only speak one language so when we travel we go and we hear all these people that have you know that speak multi languages and and for you you said you speak nine different languages, right? So I always feel a bit envious, but now you're just putting me to shame. Nine languages. How on earth does that happen in your life?

Speaker 2 3:15

Um, honestly, I blame my brain all the credit goes to my brain. It's everything's outside of me. It's all my brain. I think I just have an MC for languages. Very early on. I, my mom would speak German to me. There was Russian around me, I'm from Czech Republic. I moved to the Netherlands. And then later on in my late teen years, I just traveled the world. And mostly, I found myself in places where they didn't speak English. So you learn real quick why no one speaks English, which is still my one of my favorite ways to learn. Yeah. And then yeah, before you know you speak

Ian Hawkins 3:57

some people, I think some of them will have a better skill for it than others. But yes, for very impressive. But we didn't come here to talk languages. So as my listeners know that the Grief Code is all about, well, what what was a big moment for you and you said for you really was stepping away from your family but more specifically from your mother. Was there a moment or was there a whole lot of events that led up to that tipping point?

Speaker 2 4:26

Um, the relationship with my mother has always been a turbulent one. And I have left the home scene significantly early in ages that people are not supposed to leave home. Well, we the first time when I left I was 15 and I came back later on at an age of 18. Again, I guess coming from East Europe specifically with Christian roots, there is this family's everything below This thicker than whatever there isn't, there's there's almost as guilt right that you're supposed to accept everything your family does. And, and I don't want to swing the complete modern way where there's every, like families nothing anymore and we're all independent. I'm like, No, there's very important roots and connections in family. However, I do not think that families should be a free out of jail cards to treat each other, less than optimal or in everyone's best intention.

Ian Hawkins 5:28

Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2 5:29

So, upon growing into more like young adolescent, the relationship with my mother would remain turbulent. And it wouldn't matter how much external counsel I would seek, you know, to either better myself in communication or expressing, like, you know, what I would need as a young adult versus as a kid, you're kind of like at the mercy I want to almost say right from, from the authorities who take care of you. But as an adult, I feel the relationship should be at least moving towards a more balanced one. Which didn't happen. And without completely disregarding what my mom went through, because she went through a very, very harsh life herself. There's only so much compassion, I can conjure up for certain behavior. So seven years ago, after trying, left and right and her expression being look, I'm your mother, I will never going to change this is your problem, take it or leave it. And I kid you not. Is like time stood still. And I remember where I was sitting, I remember exactly what I smell, I can see her spill. It was like the room had filled up with all my ancestors future selves, anything I and I'm not even that spiritual, but it like the room filled up and told me this, isn't it, everyone's clear in their communication, you need to leave. And I took that as a sign because one thing I can actually respect about people is when they're clear in their intentions, and I have to respect when their intentions doesn't don't match mine. Yeah, so I left. And that's when like a whole trajectory of different type of maturity, growing up grief, sadness, anger started, and was a huge catalyst into where I am right now in my life. But that's I feel the moment you realize that the people who are supposed to take care of you or not, God coming to save you, by lack of better wording, I feel that's when you step into a different level of maturity. That might, in the moment not be the most pleasant one, but it's a necessary 100%

Ian Hawkins 7:55

That that cold, then no one's coming to save you. And to me, it's only grief that leads you to that point.

Speaker 2 8:07

Absolutely. And I would say I would argue like in, in a utopian world, we would have a different rite of passage, a more healthier connected one. But that's, again, utopia. We're not a utopia, we're in the real world. So this is how it went for me. And I have been extremely beyond blessed and lucky to have friends. And people that did care of me and let me completely dissolve on the couch and have my rage and everything that came with that. To find myself in this space. Like I don't even know who what Who am I if I'm not someone's daughter?

Ian Hawkins 8:47

Yeah. So that makes sense. Yeah, it does is letting go of that codependency. Right, right. Absolutely. Absolutely. Which is a massive one. You described a moment there where you said it was like time stood still. And I was straightaway drawn to my moment like that, which was when my dad came to the door. I talked about this a lot and saying, oh, like money, the homie. Don't worry about paying it back. And that was my time stood still mind because I'm like, Oh, he knows he's dying. Like he hadn't been well, and it was like, and I couldn't, I just couldn't speak. Now, I never really realized that. Everyone has a moment like that until you just said that it's like, but that that's the moment, Time stands still. So in that moment, like, can you remember? Can you remember sort of what that felt? Like? Was it was it confronting was it was it scary?

Speaker 2 9:40

So I had always thought that impactful moments would feel and look in the way like you kind of see movies where like, your mind is racing, you have all these thoughts and you're on this crossroad and your mind is calculating where to go. But I would say it's actually the opposite. Like you become completely quiet. And there's a part because I know how disassociating feels. This is not it. There's a part when you're adding yourself and almost an ego view I simultaneously and it becomes mega quiet like crispy clear, like, you know, when snow has just fallen, and no one has touched him. Yep. And there's no sound like that's how it felt.

There. Well, it's presence. Right? It draws you straight back to the present moment. Yeah. I imagine though, leading up to that point. For you to have that level of clarity. You must have already been starting to unravel some of this stuff with your mum.

Speaker 2 10:46

Yes. And I don't, I always think that a lot of the moments leading up to it are often like high tense feelings, right? Like, there's a lot of anger, feeling and justice, trying to make things work, which I think everyone's doing their best, to whatever extent they can. But at one point, it's having even a conversation with yourself. How much harm disrespect? Again, it's so hard to use all these terms, because like the internet world took all these terms or ran with them. But how, how much are you willing to accept, and what's the stake. And at one point, I feel it becomes disproportionately dis balanced or unbalanced. And that's the moment where you have to ask for, at least for yourself, like a lot of I see a lot of people having relationships with other people, when they know that person is never going to change, it might be a little bit an unhealthy relationship. And there's an acceptance, right, there's no more fighting it. So for me, the Crossroads was like, either I'm going to fully accept this. And not no more fighting, it's just like, just take it grown, leave even a little bit more hard skin, just take it or go away. But there's, there's this, this demon tango, we're not going to do that anymore. Because that's how it feels to me, like your inner wounds come with my inner wounds. And we just try to battle out whose inner wounds are more justified or righteous. And we're just going to sit and do this demon tangle. And at one point, it's like, I'm exhausted as a demon tango.

I love that. My experience was that I can remember the the moment in my teens where I did give up that fight. And just got to that level of acceptance. And the realization for me much later in life was that was a moment of just giving up so much power. That moment, you you just go accept what is and then just tolerate shit that you just don't want to tolerate is the moment that you're just giving it all up. And you're, you're then being driven by other people's agendas and stories. But the moment you made the decision you made, which was not doing this anymore, I'm not going to accept this anymore, that that's a moment where you can set yourself free. So if we backpedal, would you have had moments earlier in your life where you did just have that level of acceptance and probably tolerate things that you shouldn't have?

Speaker 2 13:31

Absolutely. And mostly with family because anyone you ask in my outside world, there will be like, I am probably way too hard on people, I have a close to zero tolerance. So there was this Guild and I am referring to as cultural a Christian guild, whether it was with my grandma like her mom, right, like I've seen her do the same thing. And her moving away from it was moving to the other side of the world, that was her moving away. And every time she would come back to her mom, she would just tolerate it and accept it. And I'm just like, this is this can be it. We cannot all just do this cycle over and over and over and over again, like that can be life. So it's so for sure. During teenage years, specifically, there has been like anyone who would be verbally about it, like I'm your mom, you'll have to accept this, you'll have to put up with this. And that was very much a rule in cultural, you know, East Europe, where the authority were family. This you don't have, you don't have a saying as a younger person. So it's been probably like the whole life and seeing it with my grandma on her other daughters. It's a guy it keeps recycling itself. And I feel we are extremely blessed in the sense that we are the first generation where we can actually have insightful conversation with our parents because we're not being bombarded or we, you know, to Communist I finally left when I was like, what, three or something. So there's not as external constant survival going on, which is a phase that actually then invites introspective research conversation with other people. I think,

yeah, no 100%, the sort of penny drop moment there for me was just watching my dog, my little therapy dog here, just he was sort of fitting through that whole thing. It's not for you. It's not just your journey. But this is a whole generation culturally, of letting go of that control that was placed on families, whether they liked it or not. Wow. So you've gone completely the other way. And like what I know of yours, yeah, you call it how it is, and unapologetically. And there are times there were not times, people need to hear that. Like, you can't keep running for things. I think we live now in a world that people get so offended by things. And if you get offended by something, what you're getting shown there is something that you need to address fully if it is yours, yours alone, there's a whole lot other people are hearing and reading that same thing who aren't offended by that. It's like, you watch comedians come around, it was now but one of the motivating Jim Jefferies, and he was saying, our job is to take it to the line, just to that edge. So you can't judge us for where the line was 10 years ago, and call us out on that, because that was the line. Yes, you've moved the line. Great. And we take it here, but you can't judge us on the past. So it just keeps coming back to that place of like, well, we get to make your own choices. And so is that something you've experienced as well as like, the people getting offended? Has, they're not realizing that it's actually their own stuff to deal with?

Speaker 2 17:05

Absolutely. And I wouldn't even argue that the line has not moved at all, but our towards the line has changed. So we're we're like significantly closer to it like so everything feels a little bit more scarier. And, and I completely attribute that to being East European, and we cultural differences. Because here in the West, right? Everything, there's significantly more individualism and I'm when I refer to the west are referring to the modern west. So Australia, UK, Netherlands, a little bit of Germany, but not completely American Canada's like the modern modern West, and New Zealand, probably, yeah. Because being offended, first of all is for the weak. And being offended is a luxury problem. The fact that we can have all these opinions about things and that means that we're not in survival mode. And I love that for everyone. I wish for the whole world that no one would have to be in survival mode at any point. But it is a luxury problem. So everyone being offended. I have currently because obviously, our perspective on the world changes and evolves. But currently I am feeling that it has more to do with your perspective on life. And if you feel like a perpetual victim, you will feel constantly attacked. Any feedback would feel like an attack like a personal violation. Yeah. Meanwhile, if you consider yourself a strong person, that your perspective, no one is trying, no one is out there attacking me, whatsoever. I'm just existing, the majority of the world was also just existing. Most of the people aren't even noticing me. So let alone they woke up that day and thought Who am I going to hurt? And who am I going to attack and I'm choosing violence today. Yeah. And aside of that, I have this very, very, very arrogant notion, which always pisses off a lot of people. I only accept insults from people within my tax bracket and higher. And that is not a moment of silence for everyone getting upset that and I know I'm using a monetary, you know, measurement, but I'm using it mostly as to I can't accept insults just from everyone. That's just like I just like, I don't accept advice from everyone. Yeah. So again, assuming that the world is out there to insult me hurt me attack me. That's a very self centered way and I just don't see any evidence of that being the case. Yeah, and also Oh, Europe, we are known for the most dark humor, we're laughing through communism, we are making dead baby jokes, we're doing all the whole thing and we're hysterically laughing coping mechanisms the way that isn't, then there's definitely cultural thing as well. So,

yeah, I have to check out some of the human and if you can't, if you can't laugh at it, well, then again, you've got more to address there. That was so good. And, and I know there's gonna be probably confronting to a lot of people. But ultimately, that's what you want to get to be able to walk through life and just things just slides straight past you. Because if you're constantly being triggered, or upset or offended, and as you rightly described, you're constantly in that survival mode. I was actually drawn to, like you mentioned communism, when you were talking, I was like, I was drawn to those people that grow up in places where their life depends on their every move. They don't care about whether they're offended by something that they're literally just trying to navigate. And so I hadn't thought about like that we're actually come to that point where no, no, if you're, if you're having to deal with that you're not, you've stepped out of survival mode. That's massive. But the thing is, is that you can keep dipping back into survival mode by staying in that place of the victim, and the offense. So how have you learned to step out of that victimhood? And to step into that place of Well, no, I'm not, I'm not going to take offense to this. I'm not but I'm also not going to tolerate this.

Speaker 2 21:36

I'm, fully attribute this to my mom. Ironically, she was a not not even I don't want to even go into like Survivor which he was. But he was a we're solving ship now. Oh, pardon me, we're solving things now. And we'll, we'll have feelings about it later. And that's mostly has been my modus operandi for a long time. And I had to learn to actually process the feelings at some point, though, because I've never learned that in like, healthy way. So I wouldn't be like, it's kind of like a ticking time bomb, which was great at solutions. Like everyone can come to me, I got you. But not having a way to process like, so that came significantly later. I'm thinking like, early 20s. Like, okay, I'm reaching the ceiling of all, like, how much my body can take? Yeah, what are we going to do with this? Because I've done the whole, okay, let's, you know, let's do let's do all the drugs, let's just shove all the cocaine down or no, so we don't feel or whatever. That seemed to not be helpful. And it seems to also not be a solution. So how do we actually get to solution? And we started experimenting with different stuff, coaches therapist, going completely into nature going to you know, workaholism, etc, like trying everything, like different jackets, like a buffet of life, I always say it's like, let's try everything. And the, this seems to work for now. Yeah. So yeah, I attributed that absolutely. To my mom. First we go into solution, and later, we'll have to deal with feelings.

So I'm curious, because you've talked about that family unit and the the natural anger that was sitting there, that's something I can relate to a lot. And, and that phrase, you use them the ticking time bomb, because when we bottle it up, and we suppress it, and then we just go straight to solution mode, or we'll just avoid it altogether, then it still sits in there. And it's still there. And for me, I had different places where that ticking time bomb went off.

Speaker 2 23:50

Did you had Why did it show it for you? Like what way did it come out for you?

So I would I would spend all day at work. So this is post my big grief moment, right? So before that I was still suppressing, but there's nothing like a moment, like a life defining moment to bring it all to the surface. So I would keep it all together at work, but under the surface is all this anger. So then I would come in the door. And you know, my wife's worked kids have probably been over whatever they'd been doing, whether they've been at school or whatever it is, and everything everyone's on edge. And then that's the safe place because that's that's what I would have had modeled I imagine is that's the safe place where it all comes out. So then I'm taking care of my family the people who at least wanted to but you got to be professional right to keep it all together and you're out there and the outside world. So that was one place and the other place was sport. Sport it's almost to my celebrated to some extent we grew up watching these people having these reactions like I'm not sure if you're familiar with rugby, but there's there's two codes, rugby leagues like gospel here in where I live, and we We celebrated the brawls when everyone was in there and punching on and that sort of stuff. So it almost became normalized to the point where that was my outlet. And I'm talking only a few years ago that I actually managed to get this under control. And then realizing that it almost becomes like an addiction of this this anger, because it feels so good.

Oh, righteous anger. It's

so good. Oh, yeah. And then then people go, Oh, no, I can't feel good. But it's like, with a client this morning, yeah, client this morning. And he was just externalize his anger about somebody he works with. And I was like, Oh, this is so good. He's doing that without guilt. He's not doing it to the person. He's dealing with that calmly. But he's allowed himself to process it now in a safe place and makes all the difference. So like, how did you manage to to work through that? Or do you still have moments now when it comes to service? Because I know I do.

Speaker 2 25:59

I just start with the latter part of your question, I have to be cautious. Because it loves resurfacing. Yeah. And it's such a familiar state of being. So I call that the alcoholic who's in the bar. Like, I have to be very specific when I allow myself in certain spaces mentally and physically, because I will latch on to anger and I will let it fuel me and I'll get even richer and I'll you know, put my middle fingers in the air. And it's a very, it's a very immature side of me, right? Like, it's the inner teenager who's just angry at the world, which has brought me so much in life. So I have to be cautious because it's always kind of lurking around the side, because there's enough to be angry about whether I want to pull it from my past, from external circumstances from things that have been done onto me politics economy, like I can pick one. Yeah. Um, so it's always lurking. So um, I would arguably call myself the anger addict. But it's a choice every day just like actual addiction. How do I want to show up for myself? How do I want to show up for my future self? And what is that resulting in the current self care like, without, and knowing, which I feel like is the hardest part in everything. I'm doing certain things of self care that will not have a direct return of investment of instantly feeling good, because feeling good is not the goal. Even though we would like that always, at least I would love feeling good all the time. But it's the tension the holding and the void in between where it's like, I'm not in the feeling good yet. Anger is lurking at my shoulder. How am I going to hold the tension in between how I'm going to behave in between?

Yeah. Yeah. Does that make any sense? It does. Yeah. And it's strange, not strange. It's pretty cool. Use that description anger addiction, because I think I did an individual episode on this just recently for me. Actually, it might have been last week interview anyway, by the by for me, it was like I was walking the dog listening to Russell Brand's recovery book, write on addiction, until he says everyone's addicted to something. And that was like, that moment of like, this big slap in the face from like, oh, it's anger. I am addicted to anger, because like we've been describing, when it comes out, like, later afterwards, you feel guilty, but at the moment, at the time, it feels good. And again, as you described, just it feels you like, straightaway drawn to two things. One is in football, I would play unbelievably well. When I was in the contest, I was in the competition, and I was like, was in a fight with someone at the same time. Sometimes, that would be the case in business to where I'd be like, fuck you. Like, I'm going to show you I'm going to get this done. Yeah. So potent. Yeah. But then it becomes like, with the addiction is to perform well, I need to have both of those things. And it's like, well, that's not sustainable. And, and again, because of the, from my experience, it's the aftermath, right? It's then the guilt and the shame and what are people going to think and all those different things?

Speaker 2 29:32

And a full like adrenaline drop, like actually your body being depleted? Again, without referencing too much to drugs, but for those who have been in drugs, like being on full alert and like thinking or like, there is an alertness and clarity within anger, that's so that's so rich, and I would argue that there is a like, I think there's an hierarchy of addiction, and we kind of like exchange them like I rather be addicted to sport or Business then, you know, self destructive behavior, anger or whatever. And then hopefully you move in hierarchies to more healthier mechanisms. Yes. But yeah, there's it's so potent, so potent.

Absolutely.

Look at me being like, Oh, I miss my anger.

Every now and then we can just tune into it right if we really need something. Sure, absolutely. I usually just follow the nudges of what shows up in my body when when I hear my guest talking, when you talked about some I think you're describing your mum and you talked about unbalanced. And a kind of got like a lower back sort of feeling like does this unbalanced show up for you at different times? Like, is that pattern then repeated?

Speaker 2 30:54

Yes, absolutely. So I would, myself, I would call myself an extremist. And the majority of the people around me would call me an extremist too. And until the recent like maybe like five year I'm actually vouching for balance, which is my inner teenager still, like looking at the side eyeing me from the court, like, Excuse you. We were like rebelling against like balance because there's these like negative connotations for me at least balanced because it sounds mediocre. It sounds that's the that's the affiliation that I have with that Bert word. So now that I'm even in the entrepreneurial space, right, let's be honest, the moment you are an entrepreneur of any or business first and you go extreme, you're gonna get your results. Yeah. And then later, you're kind of like, Okay, I'm getting burned out, or I feel like calm down or just like not working, right. So you'll have to find a balance. But balance, people simply like don't really stand out, or they don't really make history like no history books. He's saying like, this was a Hans shimmer, and he was an extremely balanced person, like, no story starts like that. That's just like, no story starts with there was this one evening and I had a salad and then like, it's always like, you know, this one evening, I was angry, or I was at a party, or I was doing this or I was drinking whatever it is, like, again, balanced things don't make history. So there's an connotation that I'm like, okay, so what does balance look like? For me, I have to, I'm still actively reframing that word. And being a even though I don't believe in astrology, I always am a triple A Capricorn, which is apparently like a real like, go getter thing. I like I'm a serial entrepreneur, I like I like business. I'm a workhorse more so because I don't have to anymore. I retired two years ago. And now I want to work even more, whether that's in business, or I'm working at the ranch shoveling horse poop. It's the best, the best I can do all in. But seeing it from a now more removed perspective, we have the hustle bros who are like, go go go will sleep later. Sleep is for losers. And then you have the other side, which is extremely like the loving gaslight community who are all like, Oh, you just have to think things and look, you have to just be an exist. And I'm like, No, there's got to be a balance in between. Yeah, again, coming back to balance.

Yeah. So good. To me, the word that comes up is sustainable. Without balance.

Because Because good work.

Yes. So living that that bone out Pat one. So today's my first day back from a holiday, I feel amazing. And it's always a reminder that, okay, like, this is why I take more breaks than I ever used to I used to be, you know, we started out in business, I didn't have a business background. So it was like, you just got to go hard. And I did that for about two years until you get burnout. And your body says we're going to break for a week, whether you like it or not. And right realizing that Oh, my coach two years ago that said you need to break every quarter was right, but only half, right, because you need to break even more than that. And it's not just breaking, it's actually being able to switch off and completely detach, not the business owner when you're on break. Otherwise, you're just doing the same pattern. So so now that you're in this space, and I love that you're retired, but you're not retired, because we had that conversation with the kids a few times like I'm not retiring. I love this. Why would I stop doing this? Like amazing? Yeah. If you're working more than ever, how do you what's your sort of trigger? What's your reminder? That tells you, oh, I need to rebalance. I need to come back to whatever it is that I've gone from.

Speaker 2 34:46

Right. Well, just just the question like What year were you built? What year were you born like babies born?

Yeah, that's good. Well, nine languages. I'll give you that one, this first 173

Speaker 2 35:00

All right. So what I like, what one of the curving learning curves for me was like, you can go really hard when you're 20. Anywhere after like 29, it starts to veer like her. Like, I still feel, look, I live aggressively I feel aggressively but I'm also I feel victimized by the limitations of the human body like what you mean, I have to feed you five times today? What do you mean, I have to what do I have to hydrate, I just hydrated and then go into the gym. And I'm like, looking in the mirror and seeing if I have apps and then not having apps and the kid being like, Oh, how many times I have to do this. Like, what this is nonsense? Yeah. So there is again, this balance or this dance almost where like, I love physical movement, again, putting me on the range as simple labor even doing the horse poop. And I'm like, at the end of the day, there's a deep fulfillment. And the fulfillment always needs to be followed up with a check in not just a mental one, but a physical one. Like okay, how are all my muscles feeling actually like, and that's, for me the trigger? Or like, the the little pain like how do I how do I make sure that I don't overdo?

Yeah. Because the physical will show you what's going on mentally, emotionally, spiritually.

Speaker 2 36:20

Absolutely. And from a I'm a very, you know, business or number person, if I overdo it means I'm going to be out of the running significantly longer than if I just actually rest and that works really well for me, because now we're talking return of investment. And I'm like, oh, yeah, okay. Okay, I can I can stand that language.

Yeah, that's good. Always bring it back to business, right? You mentioned a lot about stepping away from your family and your mother. What about you, your father, like, Where was his place and all of that.

Speaker 2 37:01

I already. So my biological father is a rock star in East Europe. He has 10 different kids with 10 different wives. I didn't know he was my father until significantly later on. But I didn't grew up with a father Father. Yet, however, I have been very blessed and lucky, lucky to have lived in families and in households that have strong father figures. And that will significantly later on I'm talking when I was 16. So the the safety net that a father Energy provides, I learned much later on, and it was and I wasn't able to completely integrate that into my own being until like my late 20s. There is this theory, I'm a licensed psychologist, I'll probably always like jump back to certain models, there is this theory that women who didn't have a father figure growing up, they will always resort to external validation, business numbers, Sport, which definitely is the case for me. Because it's an external representation of existing performing. So probably that and I'm just right now learning how to like, translate the safety and love from the fatherly figures that came came into my life later on that weren't necessarily my father's like how, what places that have in me so I don't have an actual answer. That's all that's all I'm experimenting with for now.

Yeah. It's interesting you say that that ends up being that you're throwing yourself into business and always like that it's like competitive pursuits almost right? Because business in many senses is absolutely that whether it's competing against yourself and where your business was at where you were at. How did that play out in a negative way then through your younger years if you if you didn't have that father figure or consistent father figure out like, like, is that? Is it too easy to draw a line between, like you being unsettled and wanting to leave the home, but without having that battle? Interesting balance, right.

Speaker 2 39:27

Right. For sure for how it absolutely turned out for me as being this extreme, hyper independent woman in this case, and not needing men, which I have completely moved away from. But that's how it showed up initially. I don't need a man I will play men because I'm a master manipulator. A culturally that's also being bred into us as women if you have any aesthetic aesthetic beauty, sensuality is a currency in In our culture, and you will have to use that my means. So that's how it showed up in earlier years. I don't even know like almost like a little bit angry. I don't need a man on a hybrid independent, don't carry my bag, I can carry my bag excu use you. But like I said, I've completely moved away from that. But that's how it showed up initially.

was like going there? I'll come back. Because there was something else there. But it's completely Oh, no, that's what it was. There you go. Thank you the visual cue. This is something that I've I've had with other male and female that seems to be predominantly female, when you grow up being what the world would consider to be attractive. It comes with other insecurities. Also comes with a pressure to needing to be like continually like feeling like you're needing other people's expectations of your, your looks. And like was that a challenge from a young age? If that's what you learned?

Speaker 2 41:11

Yes, absolutely. So I've been taught and and looking back, it's hard to differentiate whether that's a cultural thing, or just like your family dynamic, because they're like, where's the overlap? And where does like, Where does the line end. But I've been taught me to be slim, thin, preferably blonde, you need to be a good wife. And I used to do a highly competitive gymnastics. And at age 10, I started growing hips. And my teachers tried to beat that out of me, like actually beat that out of me. And like, there's just not like the hips, which is grow, I was still good at my gymnastics, but they would just grow. So there came this unhealthy relationship with body itself, which, instead of taking it to extremes and trying to become whatever I was expected to be, I think that that has been a part of it. I again, I'm thinking my brain for this, for whatever reason, there was this researching and exploring, like, Where does this notion come from? And how I translated it is that this notion comes from the male gaze. Right? So what I learned really early on. So one of my, my foster dads, the family that I lived for a while the foster dad said, he said, Barbara, you know what men do to pretty women. And I'm like, now, they're like, they pursue them. And they do things with them. And do you know what they do with ugly women? I'm like, no, they pursue them too. I do things with them, too. And that was such a pivotal moment where I'm like, Yeah, which is true. So at that point, my aesthetic definitely first swung into an other extreme, I had black hair piercings in my face, I was like, how far can I push it and still have a male gaze, which has always been the case. And I would now attribute that just to because I'm a very like extroverted person out I like I'm very social. But back then I attribute it to aesthetic. So at one point, you come to this, like, kind of debit the balance again, where you're like, Okay, I don't have to do it for the external male gaze. So how do I want to express myself in the world? And how do I want to decorate myself where show up? And I feel like being the color from person that I am like, the colorful hair, like I've had this for 13 years by now. So I think like, that's just just who I am.

Yeah, I was gonna ask, did you end up going blonde at some point, because of this stereotype.

Speaker 2 44:00

I've had everything I've had platinum blonde, you know, I've had the highest heels and I can still pray to my high heels. I've I have done to you know, like, making sure that I had so little food so I could be as thin as possible but still having these ginormous hips it just makes no sense. So I've tried it with very little successful results.

Well, I think what you described there when you said you tried you know the different tact with the the piercings and everything else is like didn't really make a difference regardless of how you showed up because it was still you Right? Right, right. Yeah. Yeah, still still. We still bring forward our insecurities, our our behavior, patterns, everything we can try and change all those things, but it comes back to that word again balance. So how did that change? Haven't you in relationships when you were growing up then if you if you lived without that consistent father figure and also, everything you described about the influence of your mother that you didn't particularly take kindly to, and you said it wasn't beneficial in so many ways, and like, many, many, many benefits, I'm sure that impact you, and then when you did start pursuing relationships,

Speaker 2 45:28

so one of the wounds slash programs that I still carry today is that I feel like I'm a burden. The difference however, right now is as I'm growing older, is that it's a program I'm hearing, I just don't have to behave or act upon it. Whereas when I was younger, it would show up in an either destructive way, where I would initiate fights, whether that was romantic relationships or with friendships, or I would test people. Like, how much are you willing to take from me again? No, bueno? not sexy? at all, in any sense. Yeah. But so feeling like a burden. That's how it showed up and still shows up. Differences now that I'm just aware of it. And I, I describe it as you know, my Bing is a soul mansion, and outside of the house is construction. And on some days, the construction is really loud. And on other days, I'm completely fine with it. But the construction is there. Yep. So that's how I view it now. But that's definitely been a big part. And it's funny, when I, when I've amazing, I am so blessed with the people around with me and being able to have conversations like this, that one of my best friends, Elizabeth, her her wound is that she feels like she's not a good connection, that she's not a good friend. And I feel like a burden. So can you imagine? So I'm in her house, and I don't I kind of like minimalizing my existence? And she's like, and like, Did I not make my home ahead for you enough? So going at? Like, I might not being a good of a friend enough? And I'm like, no, no, I'm so. So now, having language for it. And being aware that those are just things from the past, we can laugh about it, and we can bring them to the table. Whereas in the past it was it would completely leave my being and myself.

Yeah. So have you have you been able to like you talked about like, friend relationships. But is it meant that you have you had to work through these different things in relationships? Or is it been in the aftermath of relationships that you've had to learn?

Speaker 2 48:04

Looking back, there's certain friend groups that I have since I was 10 years old. And what and I think those friendships and relationships survive because my wounds wouldn't trigger there. So they had completely different wounds that are not triggers for me. So we could we can balance each other.

Speaker 2 48:37

Whereas if you if, if your wound feels like a rejection or a trigger in someone else, now again, then we're back to demon tango. And it just fueling, fueling, fueling until someone in the pattern interrupts which I feel like a younger age is kind of hard. So some have survived, because we didn't have the same triggers, and are now even deeper, because we've been through all the flows and weird phases of life. Other perished and they're a great chapter of the book.

Yeah, nice. So what about intimate relationships?

Speaker 2 49:25

I feel that I have been that I've been lucky that I have seen a lot of turbulent relationships around me. Where so I have concluded that's not it. However, I have not firsthand experienced a healthy relationship. So I tried the destructive relationships in various ways. And I very quickly found out like this ain't it? Because I do feel like I had a strong sense of integrity and what I'm willing to accept early on, maybe because There was a lot of acceptance with like the family dynamics, so on wasn't willing to compromise that outside of family. But that's absolutely been a dance where it's like, what's healthy if you don't know if you've never experienced healthy, firsthand? The good thing is you, you don't have reference. But that's also the bad thing. So you're just trying things.

So you don't know when it's good.

Speaker 2 50:35

Know Exactly. And there's this meme, which I feel like everyone knows where you this dog in a firehouse. And he's like, this is fine. And during COVID Without politically stuff, the people who come from Turbulent homes when COVID happened and the world went the crazy, crazy states, that people who were from Turbulent homes, we were all like, just fine. Because the external chaos and we were like, we know this. We're fine. Yeah. And then when you come across good, and healthy, it feels weird because it feels boring. It feels like the eye of the storm or the the silence before the storm. And sometimes that would result in creating the storm yourself. And other times it was like this awaiting. Yeah, and some partners would create space for that. And other partners would be like, Oh, you want to storm Let's go? Well, let's storm together again. Like we've done all.

Yeah. Which again, has has its good points, but also comes with replica. Absolutely. Yeah, really fascinating. The as you said that, that turbulent time. For me, it was like, very blissful in so many ways is like, well, this is nice and quiet. And yeah. Very chilled out.

Again, there was something there, but we'll come back if if it was important. You the way you're talking, it just makes me think you very visual, big picture sort of think? Have you just got like ideas, just constantly new ideas about things and life just constantly bombarding you?

Speaker 2 52:28

Yes. I feel like my chaotic and turbulent upbringing has resulted in a curiosity and it could have gone a completely different way, right? In a curiosity and trying to understand the human psyche and experience. I also attribute speaking many languages for that, because I've always been trying to understand the language of the brain and the mind. And you know, and the more languages I speak, the less expressive it becomes, because it's just a language of its own. So I feel like visuals and symbolism very much helped with the expression of that. Yeah. Love that. And I use them constantly. And yes, when you're younger, you're like, oh, act upon every idea. And now that you're, you're getting more older, slash mature. You're like, I'm writing down every idea still. I just realized not every not every thought needs to be active. Which are the good, the ideal ones, the happy ones, the blissful ones, including the bad ones. Not every idea needs to be acted upon.

Yeah, absolutely. So I think, for my to my audience who are over thinkers and being one myself, right, it's, it's like, how do you get to that point? Because I know a lot of them are the same. They're their ideas, and they're like, that's awesome. I want to do that. That ought to do that. I wouldn't do that. They started credibly long to do lists. How have you been able to make to be decisive enough to go? Nope, not that one. Yes, this one and being able to move on?

Speaker 2 54:08

Well, I feel that for a lot of people who are in their head that they are trying to solve their head with their head and absolutely impossible. You need to get in your body preferably by excruciating hard labor or anything. But what I noticed for over thinkers it's, I would, I would say I'm an over thinker myself to that it requires a direction. So I'm, I'm gearing it towards curiosity exploring not an acting everything. But then this is the thing with ideas, there are they all they are all theoretical, and there are only based on theoretical references so I can think all I want about climbing that mountain. And this is an analogy that I always use, I can research the best gear, and I can like, talk to other people. And I can make a complete mental reference about climbing the mountain. But actually climbing up that mountain is different. Because there's a difference between thinking that's going to be hard versus actually climbing up a mountain feeling like your lungs are about to explode, and you're fully in your body. And I feel like that's the thing with plus, like the example you use, like, you know, I haven't a great, great idea here. That's a shiny object syndrome, right? Yeah. That's an and then we're going to walk the line. Shiny Object Syndrome is great for people who have the monetary freedom, time freedom to act upon every idea. Unless you're in that position, you cannot do that. And I would argue that if you do have those tendencies, then your one and only goal should be to practice the mental muscle of doing things past their shiny time. Yes, I feel like the people who have a lot of shiny object syndrome, it shows up in everything, relationships, they're constantly in a different industry, their relationships are changing, exchanging all the time. And they're constantly cycling themselves into Oh, no, but this idea, and it's a cycle, right? It becomes a cycle. And there's little to no execution at one point. So I'm like, okay, so you have the cycles, mental cycles, you can't get out of those mentally, because the mind that created that, that problem will not allow you to step out of it. So you'll have to physically, pattern interrupt. Yeah,

yeah, the What strikes me there is it's almost like that savior complex. Again, this next shiny object is going to be the one that saves me. So it's like, we've removed the dependency on the person and we've created a new dependency on some new shiny object.

Speaker 2 57:02

I feel it's a very childlike aspect within us that doesn't accept life. Because life does not, does not add. And at one point, no one's coming to save us. No lottery is going to change our life, it may impact our life. But thinking that this next thing is going to be IQ, you're chasing something, and you're not willing to accept that life is a continuous thing, which is the acceptance again, that again, I have to hydrate that I have, I'll have to do some fitness tomorrow. Again, I'm with everyone. I feel legit victimized by it. But alas, here we are.

I remember what I was going to say before and it ties into the overthinking. And that's that's the the self doubt when we like you described it right in the relationship. Well, I haven't had good will have that. Great. So how do I know what I'm there? And how much you taught that pattern interrupt how much that shows up in so many different areas where you'd like, but the reality is, it's like, well, we get to decide what's good, we get to use the word before direction. Like, how important is to know what you are working towards? Because when you have that, then the the shiny objects, what's the like, Okay, here's my, here's my GPS. Does the shiny object actually fit towards this? Does my do I feel like this is good compared to where it is ongoing? becomes so much easier to make those decisions so much easier to, to process and, and make sense of where you're at on the journey? Right.

Speaker 2 58:48

Right. And I would almost argue, and maybe that's the current theme of like, thought construction that I'm having right now. But I would argue that people who haven't directed they're overthinking in a productive way, their major problem is that they don't trust themselves to handle the disappointment.

Oh, that's good. Yeah. And my addition to that would be an Who are they most worried about? Disappointing?

Speaker 2 59:16

Absolutely. Again, going you'll have to be and we'll always have different ways of how we perform right? Some people like the external validation, whether that's from a parent or authority or a teacher, some people run away from fear, some people run towards pleasure. And you would want to have the balance of all

Speaker 2 59:40

that the people who constantly jump shiny object syndrome, they're simply not trusting themselves to be able to handle the disappointment or translate the lesson or the data from not obtaining their shiny moment into alkalizing it into something constructive. So They keep just jumping, jumping. So because when you keep jumping, you'll never come to this appointment because you've never set a goal. So you can't miss it. Resulting in that you're constantly disappointing yourself only your delusion yourself that you're not you don't have it, you didn't make a measure. So you just go.

Yeah. Love it. Two more things. Well, two more, I'm sure that the more they come to me, but it's just two things that really struck me and both of them are linked to what you said about coming back to like, how it feels in your body? Where does intuition come into that? So you said, get out of your head come back to your body? Does Is there a instinctive part of that coming back to body and intuitive part?

Speaker 2 1:00:48

Yes. And I with all the with all the humbleness? I feel like I have found that perfect way between what's intuition versus what's mental clutter? Yeah, intuition. Doesn't market itself. It doesn't negotiate with you. It doesn't go like no but listen, and this and wave, inner demons, inner critic, inner perfectionist any other they market themselves, they have to sell themselves and their value, whereas intuition is so when for us, like serial entrepreneur, people or people who will love their business, there's when I'm, there's when I'm tired. It's my body's just like, tired verb, whereas where there's a coping mechanism, no, but you don't have to do anything. We can do it tomorrow, it has a whole conversation. That's how I differentiate everything. Is it my body, which is going to it doesn't negotiate with me just tells me anything other than have a conversation market itself. It's strike, like a lawyer, like tried to sell it to me, then I know, it's irrelevant. It's some kind of mechanism.

Brilliant, love it. And the other question around body was, you mentioned really early in the conversation about that disassociation from the body. So now that this is such an important part, was there a was there a moment in time where you did disassociate for whatever reason?

Speaker 2 1:02:17

Mostly when I was younger, when there was physical violence around me and towards me then absolutely I wanted to, I was out. can still replay everything like a movie? very classical one. You just see it from a, like a camera. But yeah, disassociation. I haven't disassociated, like I can't even remember the last time I have. I feel because I'm trying to nurture the relationship with my body and the instinct and everything that comes with that. But yes, there's a, I think there's a difference between compartmentalizing, because clearly, I can't have a meltdown in the middle of the supermarket. Right? Like, I, I can then pause that, and just hold it for a second and then have my meltdown wherever it's appropriate. Whereas disassociating and be completely out and almost numb, right? Like, there's nothing going on inside? And I always feel like it was I always wondered, like, where do the things get stored when you're disassociating? Because they don't they don't disappear? They have to go somewhere. So it's just like a big backpack we're carrying or what are we doing? Like it goes somewhere, but

yes, well, my answer to that would be is it to get does get stored in the body that's that that needle in your knee or, or the tension in your shoulder or the or the strange pain somewhere in your torso like it stores itself there until you're ready to deal with it and like you talked about throughout the body will tell you so when that niggle gets beyond a niggle and, and you'll be you don't want to tolerate any more than then that's when you go back and deal with whatever that was right. So was the was the violence? Was it just in different moments when different people came in and out of your life? Was it family? Was it

Speaker 2 1:04:11

like family and physical violence? Yeah, for sure. very frequent, very high intensity constant

towards you or just

Speaker 2 1:04:23

even around me, but like I've been through. It's one of the like, I'm always cautiously talking about things because I don't want to sound like a victim. I've had more guns against my head that I care to talk about. I've been beaten up more times that I like feel like and I don't mind talking about it. It's one of those things.

Yeah, rather than looking at it from like, just to me doesn't sound like a victim. But what it does is if you look at it from the people listening to this who have had similar experiences, they want to hear about it because then they can relate and then hear about how you dealt with it.

Speaker 2 1:04:55

Right? So yes, definitely physical violence. from family members, sexual assaults, finding yourself again in very less than optimal places, criminal circuits and so all sorts of violence and back then my go to with like, just associate, let's just sit it through. And it was literally and I would I remember going into the camera mode and just counting all I need is another moment and other seconds and other second look at one point this has to end. Yeah. And then I would like slowly descent I guess.

Yeah, I was going through all of that was there was a thoughts regularly do they do like yes, it will and but I need to get myself out of this. Like, how do I get myself out of this?

Speaker 2 1:05:45

Um, yes, but I feel because what directly translates the kind of circling back to how we started the conversation, it was just rage, not even anger, it was rage. And when when you're younger rage, translated in the way that I was always the like, I was a tough girl right at school. And later that will translate to diving and translating that rage, anger into performance in various types. But the and that's what I absolutely now notice to like, the landing that the dip after is such a physical exhausting thing, like I feel when we disassociate and come back. There's such it's such an intense physical experience, which often then results people in more disassociating. So they don't have to deal with that. And it's, it's just like, dealing with any other addiction during the addiction. So you don't have to deal with the come down is definitely a thing. But then we're coming back to your work, work work. It's not sustainable. So how much longer are you willing to do that cycle, trying to avoid the come down? Not realizing you're going higher and higher and come down is going to be more brutal, every step forward. return of investment at one point, it's like, Okay, I just need to do this.

Yeah, it works until it stops working. Yeah. Great answer. And I'm sure many will take a lot of value out of that, because unfortunately, it's all too common people have grown up with physical violence, sexual assault, all of those different things. It's so much more common than people realize or care to admit. Yes, I appreciate you sharing that, because I know that that can be Yeah, it can be challenging to look back at those moments and, and reflect. So now moving forward, in balance. Like what I know, you said, you've got a few different things and you don't follow every object, but you do dislike to get yourself out there from anything from business to shoveling. Right. So. So what's what's an exciting thing that you have for the future? That that's going to be great for you, but also give you that return on investment? Not necessarily financially? I'm sure I will. But but that that bigger return on investment, which is that what it actually gives you personally,

Speaker 2 1:08:35

right, so what recently very, very cliche and out of annoyance rather than desire, I started a coaching, I started coaching people, and that started more because people kept asking me and I was just like, I need y'all to stop asking me so I'll just put a product out there put a coaching trajectory out there. And this is this is deal with it. And the people kept asking more and like, and I'm like, oh actually have something to tell I think I have some tools for you. So the coaching, and I hate the word so coaching is a business thing. Again, I don't have to do it, which makes me enjoy it very much more. on a physical level. I have just decided I'm going to run against Spartan Races and I just got to do one I want like three Trifecta this upcoming year, so I'm gonna just go ham,

Spartan, Spartan Races,

Speaker 2 1:09:28

Spartan Races are Spartan Races are about elite obstacle course races. Where as, again, there's a whole like hierarchy like the mud race, normal mud race, if you can just go around the obstacle course as far as you know, you have to finish the obstacle or you have to do 30 burpees so this is a new physical thing that I'm like okay, let's do that. Yeah. I, I I don't dove in. Have yet past tense of diving. I started competitive archery, which is a It is a very it's a very weird because it's a physical thing, but it's also a focus and a patience thing. Yeah. So I have that going on. And I have since I've reached kind of, I've surpassed the goals that I've had in life. So I had to kind of like balance to figure out okay, what are the new goals and not for the sake of shiny objects? Because yes, I want a Lambo and I'll have a Lambo. But also like what's fulfilling? So currently, that's bringing me ironically back to roots where I just want a ranch and a farm and I just want to work with the land.

Awesome. Yeah. Love that. Very good. Barrel, where can people find you to find out more about what it is you do? And I will, I will, Preface by say, you've got to be ready, because she'll tell you how it is like, straight out, right? Which I love.

Speaker 2 1:10:59

Yes. So I'm known as your most opinionated slob, right? That's how I market myself to everywhere bar a queen bee. And I welcome everyone However, even though I have big opinions, and I know my opinions, trigger, people bring it and not in a hostile like, I will not argue with you. I'll ask you questions. I want you I'll invite you to think through everything. I'll adjust my opinion anytime in our time. I love adjusting my opinion if you bring actual conversation. So yes, let's do it. Let's go at it. So everywhere bar a queen beats

love it. Yeah. I love that. Because I'm sure you've had people challenge you though this too. Or they say that you but you said this? I'm like, Yeah, but I was like 10 minutes ago. I've had four opinions since then. Right? And why would you not want to continue to adapt and evolve and improve? And when something presents it's better, like don't be stuck in that stubborn, righteous place, like get it right. Let's be open to what else is out there?

Speaker 2 1:12:05

Absolutely. There are certain ideas that will absolutely no matter how convincing arguments people bring me, I will never, you will never convince me you're helpless. I don't care how much you vouch for whatever, whether it's what how much you're like, but my mental illness or my these in these events, I don't care. Like you'll never convince me of your helplessness. If I have to believe on your behalf. I'm not going to rescue you either. You can like live your life. But I'll never be convinced as people's helplessness while while being realistic enough that there's very many real things going on that are very real and impactful in a negative way. So balance or something Oh. Oh, right, this word.

I think I feel the title for this episode. Balance.

Speaker 2 1:12:54

But this thing is not even a sexy word. Like that's not marketable balance.

Now it's been done to death, but it's just reality. The thing that I was drawn to you when you're talking about the you know, having a ranch and the coaching is like that there's got to be some way you can combine those two like you look at like how much work is done in equine therapy, and how much it shifts your very physiology when you when you detach yourself from your day to day and you immerse yourself in nature and animals and just away from that. To me, that would be a transformative experience for people to come and spend time with you on a ranch.

Speaker 2 1:13:39

I am always inviting everyone to come and fellowship with me. What people hate me for and like actually hate me for is my disregarding of mental illness. I'm not saying it doesn't exist. I'm just saying. If you aren't extremely fit if you and you don't and you have an amazing diet, I will not acknowledge your mental illness I would say that the way your mental going is isn't is a direct result of your shitty foods not enough outside air. So I will invite everyone just come to the ranch at one point or just come right now. Just come hike with me let's clean because I volunteer and clean the streets here. Again, I'm retired. I'll put on my orange vest and I'm just every plastic that has fallen off the truck fulfilment clarity,

clarity. Wow.

Speaker 2 1:14:30

So yeah, go back to physical labor.

Hmm Don't be too proud with to immerse yourself in the lives of what what anyone regular people are doing whatever they were right. Yeah, yeah. So good. Yeah, nothing more leveling than shoveling shit. Right.

Speaker 2 1:14:51

So good. So good. And it's it's it's such like, I'll be shoveling He hid in the arena and like there'll be this other moment of silence, and a breeze will happen. And it's like the breezes telling me something. That's how it feels like I'm having a whole experience while I'm getting blistered up and having that I haven't even shoveled it in my thing, but I'm like, Oh my god. Existential experience right here. This is amazing.

Oh, it's that present moment again, right? Yes. So good moments of clarity. Which all US addicts need at some point? And I'm talking to everyone listening, right? Because you're like, like I referenced earlier. We're all addicted to something. Bar of love this chat. I can relate to so many of them and yet our upbringing, like polar opposites in so many ways, but there is so many common threads. And I know, my listeners will get so much out of this. Thank you so much.

Speaker 2 1:16:01

Thank you so so much for having me. Thank you for your amazing energy, by the way, like you're talking about presence, like you're the epitome of presence, like you feel so present. Like what a gift. What a gift. What a gift.

Thank you. I appreciate that. And usually, that only comes when someone's mirroring it back to you.

Thank you so much.

You're welcome. I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief, let's chat, email me at info at en Hawkins coaching.com. You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform