What struck me most in my conversation with author Jennifer Shaw is how often we underestimate the power of understanding our own story. Jennifer grew up sensing she was different, yet never had the words for why. Hearing her share how a late diagnosis of autism and ADHD finally helped her trust her own voice reminded me how important it is for all of us to feel seen. As she talked about raising two autistic sons, finding healing through writing, and learning to drop the shame she carried for so long, I found myself thinking about the many people who still hide their struggles because they don’t want to be judged.

I believe listeners will connect deeply with Jennifer’s honesty. She shows that creativity can grow out of the very things we once thought were flaws, and that resilience is something we build each time we choose to show up as ourselves. This episode reminded me why I created Unstoppable Mindset: to hold space for stories like hers—stories that help us see difference as strength and encourage us to build a world where every person is valued for who they truly are.

Highlights:

01:33 – See how early misunderstandings can shape the way someone learns to navigate people and communication.06:53 – Learn how masking and observation influence the way neurodivergent adults move through the world.11:21 – Explore how parenting experiences can open the door to understanding your own identity.12:20 – Hear how finally naming a lifelong pattern can shift shame into clarity and self-trust.20:46 – Understand why self-doubt becomes a major barrier and how stepping forward can change that story.25:57 – Discover how personal journeys can naturally weave themselves into creative work and character building.29:01 – Gain insight into why creative careers grow through endurance rather than rapid wins.30:55 – Learn how creative practices can act as grounding tools when life becomes overwhelming.33:20 – Explore how willpower and environment work together in building real resilience.40:23 – See how focusing only on limitations can keep society from recognizing real strengths.45:27 – Consider how acceptance over “fixing” creates more space for people to thrive.46:53 – Hear why embracing difference can open a more confident and creative way of living.51:07 – Learn how limiting beliefs can restrict creativity and how widening your lens can unlock growth.59:38 – Explore how curiosity and lived experience fuel a deeper creative imagination.

About the Guest:

J. M. Shaw lives in Alberta, Canada, with her husband and two young children. She has been writing for most of her life, though it took years to find the courage to share her stories. What began as a childhood hobby evolved into a passion that, at times, borders on obsession—and is decidedly cheaper than therapy. Though initially interested in teaching and psychology, Shaw ultimately graduated and worked as an X-ray technologist—all the while continuing to write in secret. Through it all, storytelling remained her constant: a sanctuary, a compass, and a way to make sense of the chaos. Her early work filled journals and notebooks, then spilled into typewritten manuscripts and laptop hard drives—worlds crafted from raw imagination and quiet observation.

A pivotal turning point came in 2019, when Shaw was diagnosed with autism and ADHD. The news brought clarity to a lifetime of feeling “too much” or “too different.” She realized that her intense focus, emotional depth, and ability to live inside fictional worlds weren’t flaws—they were the gifts of a neurodivergent mind. Her unique insights allow her to create characters with emotional realism, while her mythical creatures, societies, and belief systems draw inspiration from both history and modern culture. In many ways, her fantasy series mirrors her own arc: navigating society through the lens of autism, embracing her differences, and discovering where she belongs.

Shaw’s fiction blends magic with meaning, often exploring themes of identity, resilience, and redemption. Though her worlds are fantastical, her stories remain grounded in human truths. Her characters—flawed, searching, and sometimes broken—feel eerily real. Literary influences like Stephen King, Margaret Atwood, and Dean Koontz helped shape her genre-bending style, while her mother—an English major and blunt-but-honest critic—instilled in her a love of classic literature and the drive to become a better storyteller.

In 2021, Shaw released The Ascension, the first book in her fantasy-adventure series, The Callum Walker Series. Since then, she’s published three sequels, with dozens of short stories, poems, and manuscripts still in her vault. Though painfully introverted, she attends book signings and author talks to connect with readers—shedding ecstatic tears as they share how deeply her work resonates with them. While these moments can be overwhelming, they remind her why she writes: to create stories that matter.

Currently, Shaw is working on the fifth installment of The Callum Walker Series, expanding the emotional arcs and raising the stakes in her imagined realms. Alongside it, she is developing a new dystopian-adventure that blends inequality, rebellion, love, and moral complexity. Whether indie or traditionally published, her dream remains the same: to see her books in bookstores across the world and to keep building worlds for those who need them most.

Ways to connect with Jennifer**:**

Website: www.jmshawauthor.com

Facebook: jmshawauthor

Instagram: @jmshaw_author

About the Host:

Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.

Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT\&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.

https://michaelhingson.com

https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/

https://twitter.com/mhingson

https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson

https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/

accessiBe Links

https://accessibe.com/

https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe

https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/

https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/

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Transcription Notes:

Michael Hingson  00:00

Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.

Michael Hingson  01:21

Well, hi everyone, and welcome to another edition of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. And we put it that way, because a lot of diversity people never address the issue of or include people with disabilities in their world, and some of us confront that, and I specifically take the approach you either are inclusive or you're not. There's no partial inclusion. So we put inclusion at the first part of unstoppable mindset, then diversity and the unexpected, which is everything that doesn't have anything to do with inclusion or diversity, which is most things, but it makes it kind of fun anyway, and we're glad that you're here, wherever you happen to be listening or watching, the Podcast. Today, we get to chat with Jennifer Shaw. Jennifer is an author, and she's been a a closet writer part of her life, but but she came out of the closet and has been publishing, which is cool, and she has a lot of other stories to tell, unstoppable in a lot of different ways. So I'm sure we're going to have a lot of fun talking today, and I hope that you learn some interesting and relevant concepts to your world. So Jennifer, thanks for being here and for being on unstoppable mindset. We really appreciate you coming.

Jennifer Shaw  02:36

Thank you so much for having me. Well,

Michael Hingson  02:38

why don't we start at the beginning, and why don't you tell us about kind of the early Jennifer, early Jennifer,

Jennifer Shaw  02:44

so I was very much of an introvert, very shy. I didn't really know how to talk to people. Kind of was trying to figure things out, and was having, was having a hard time figuring things out, and became more of a misfit. And I needed a way of dealing with, you know, my misunderstandings. I came became very much a people watcher, and for a while, that worked, but I needed an outlet in order to be able to analyze and sort out my ideas. And then my mom bought me a typewriter because, you know, I'm that old. And I started, I know about typewriters? Yeah, and I started writing as a hobby, and then it became a passion and obsession. Now it's just cheaper than therapy. And in 2019 I was diagnosed with autism and ADHD, which makes total sense, looking back at all the things that I used to do and the way I felt, it makes sense now, and I thought I never shared any of my stories, but I've been writing by that point for over 30 years. And I thought, well, maybe writing is my special interest. And I got brave, and I sent off my first book in my series. It's now published because I just finished that one at the time to an editor, and I'm thinking, well, the worst they can say is it sucks. And my editor came back and said, This doesn't suck. You should publish. So two years later, I did

Michael Hingson  04:05

cool well. So of course, one of the big questions, one of the most important ones of the whole day, is, do you still have the typewriter? No, yeah, I know. I don't know what happened to mine either. It is. It has gone away somewhere.

Jennifer Shaw  04:19

Mine was really cool. It was a plug in electrical one had a white out strip and everything. I gave a presentation for grade five classroom, and I told them, I got started on a typewriter, and then I was going into how I got published, and different aspects of fiction writing and and plots and character development, that stuff and that, after an hour and a half, the only questions they had to ask was, what's a typewriter?

Michael Hingson  04:43

Typewriter, of course, if you really want to delve into history and be fascinating to learn the history of the typewriter, do you know it?

Jennifer Shaw  04:51

No, I do not.

Michael Hingson  04:53

So the among other things, one of the first ways a typewriter was developed and used was. Was a countess in Europe who had a husband who didn't pay much attention to her. So she had a lover, and she wanted to be able to communicate with her lover. She is blind, and so she couldn't just have people write down messages and relay them and all that. So somebody invented this machine where she could actually create messages with a keyboard a typewriter, and then seal them, and she could get her ladies in waiting, or whoever to to give them to her, her lover. That was her way to communicate with with him, without her husband finding out. Yeah, so the ultimate note taker, the ultimate note taker, I learned to type. Well, I started to learn at home, and then between seventh and eighth grade, I took some summer school courses, just cuz it was something to do, and one of them was typing, and I didn't even think about the fact that all the other kids in the class kept complaining because they didn't know what letters they were pushing because there were no labels on the keys, which didn't bother me a bit. And so I typed then, I don't know. I assume it still is required out here, but in the eighth grade, you have to pass a test on the US Constitution, and for me to be able to take the test, they got the test transcribed into Braille, and then I brought my typewriter in and typed the answers. I guess. I don't know why they didn't just have me speak to someone, but I'm glad they did it that way. So it was fine. I'm sure it was a little bit noisy for the other kids in the class, but the typewriter wasn't too noisy. But, yeah, I typed all the answers and went from there. So that was kind of cool, but I don't remember what happened to the typewriter over the years.

Jennifer Shaw  06:52

I think it gave way to keyboards and, you know, online writing programs.

Michael Hingson  06:58

Yeah, I'm sure that it did, but I don't know what happened to my typewriter nevertheless, but oh well. But yeah, I did, and keyboards and everything else. But having used the typewriter, I already knew how to type, except for learning a few keys. Well, even mine was a manual typewriter. And then there was a Braille typewriter created by IBM. It's called the Model D, and it was like a regular typewriter, except instead of letters on the the keys that went up and struck the paper, it was actually braille characters and it and it struck hard enough that it actually created braille characters on the paper. So that was, that was kind of fun. But, yeah, I'm sure it all just kind of went to keyboards and everything else and and then there were word processors, and now it's just all computers.

Jennifer Shaw  07:53

Yep, yep. We're a digital age.

Michael Hingson  07:55

Nowadays. We are very much a digital age. So you went to to regular school and all that, yep,

Jennifer Shaw  08:04

and I was never like I was it was never noticed that I was struggling because, I mean, for the most part, women tend to mask it. That's why less, fewer women are diagnosed than men. I just internalized it, and I came up with my own strategies to deal with things, and unless you were disruptive to class or you had some sort of learning difficulties and stuff, you never really got any attention. So I just sort of disappeared, because I never struggled in school and I was just the shy one. Yeah, taught myself how to communicate with other kids by taking notes of conversations. I have notebooks where I'm like, okay, so and so said this. This was the answer, okay, there was a smile. So that must be what I need to say when somebody says that. So I developed a script for myself in order to be able to socialize.

Michael Hingson  08:55

And that was kind of the way you you masked it, or that was part of masking it.

Jennifer Shaw  09:00

That was part of masking it. I spent a lot of time people watching so that I could blend in a lot more, kind of trying to figure it out. I felt like I was an alien dropped off on this planet and that somebody forgot to give me the script. And, you know, I was trying to figure things out as I went.

Michael Hingson  09:15

Well, maybe that's actually what happened, and they'll come back and pick you up someday, maybe, but then you can beat up on them because they didn't leave a script.

Jennifer Shaw  09:25

Yeah, you guys left me here with no instructions,

Michael Hingson  09:27

or you were supposed to create the instructions because they were clueless. There's that possibility, you know,

Jennifer Shaw  09:33

maybe I was like, you know, patient X or something,

Michael Hingson  09:37

the advanced model, as it were. So you, you went through school, you went through high school, and all that. You went to college.

Jennifer Shaw  09:45

I did, yes, yeah, I went through I was going to be a teacher, but they were doing the teacher strike at that time, and that I was doing my observation practicum. And I was like, I don't know if that's something I want to go into. I'm glad I didn't. And. Instead, you know, I mean, I had an interest in psychology, and I took some psychology classes, and loved them. It intrigues me how the mind works. But I ended up going into a trade school I went to in Alberta. It's the, it's called an innate northern Alberta Institute of Technology, and I became an x ray technologist, and I worked in that field for many years.

Michael Hingson  10:22

Did you enjoy it? I loved it. I love that I

Jennifer Shaw  10:25

didn't have to, you know, like, yes, you have to work in an environment where you got other people there, but you can still work independently and, and I loved that. And I love this. I've always been very much a science math geek, you know, things numbers. I have a propensity for numbers and and then science and math, just, you know, they were fun.

Michael Hingson  10:45

Yeah, well, I agree, having a master's degree in physics and I have a secondary teaching credential, so I appreciate what you're saying. It's interesting. I would think also, as an x ray technician, although you had to give people instructions as to where to position themselves and all that. It wasn't something where you had to be very conversationally intensive, necessarily,

Jennifer Shaw  11:07

yeah, and I mean, people didn't, you know, I didn't spend a lot of time with each patient, and I was able to mask a lot of my awkwardness and stuff and short short bursts, so nobody really noticed. And, you know, I had fun with the science part of it. And, yeah, it just it was never noticed. Although the social aspects, interacting with co workers and stuff, was bit difficult after, you know, outside of the actual tasks, that was interesting.

Michael Hingson  11:38

I have a friend who just recently graduated from school learning to be an x ray technician. And I tease her all the time and tell her, you got to really be careful, though, because those x rays can slip out of your grasp if you're not careful, that you just never know when one's going to try to sneak away. So you better keep an eye on them and slap it when it does. Yeah, go catch them. I sent her an email last week saying, I just heard on the news an x ray escape from your hospital. What are you doing to catch it? They're fun, yeah, but, but you, but you did all of that, and then, so how long were you an x ray technician

Jennifer Shaw  12:22

a little over 10 years I retired once my kids were born,

Michael Hingson  12:27

okay, you had a more, well, a bigger and probably more important job to do that way,

Jennifer Shaw  12:36

yes, and I mean, like at the time, we didn't know that both my boys would be, you Know, diagnosed on the spectrum, both of them have anxiety and ADHD, but I just, I was struggling with with work and being a mom, and it, in all honesty, it was going to cost me more for childcare than it was for me to just stay home.

Michael Hingson  13:00

How did your so when they were diagnosed, what did your husband think

Jennifer Shaw  13:04

my husband was? He says, okay, okay, I get it. Yeah, I can see those things and stuff like that. And I know when from my perspective, because both my boys went through the ADOS assessment, my thoughts were, those are the things you're looking for, because I've done those my whole life. And then, so, like, my oldest was diagnosed in like, June or July, and I received my diagnosis that September, and then my littlest guy was diagnosed the following year.

Michael Hingson  13:29

You went through the assessment, and that's how you discovered it. Yep. So how old were you when they when they found it?

Jennifer Shaw  13:35

Oh, I don't know if I want to give ages. I was just under 40. Okay.

Michael Hingson  13:40

Well, the reason I asked was, as we talked a little bit about before we actually started the recording, I've had a number of people on the podcast who learned that they were on the spectrum. They were diagnosed later in life. I've talked to people who were 40 and even, I think, one or two above, but it just is fascinating to learn how many people actually were diagnosed later in life. And I know that part of it has to do with the fact that we've just gotten a lot smarter about autism and ADHD and so on, which which helps. So I think that that makes a lot of sense that you can understand why people were diagnosed later in life, and in every case, what people have said is that they're so relieved they have an answer they know, and it makes them feel so much better about themselves.

Jennifer Shaw  14:36

Yeah, I know for myself, once I was diagnosed, I've never really kept it a secret. I've, you know, I I've given myself permission to ask questions if I'm confused, and then it opens up the doors for other people, like I will, I will tell them, like some things I don't understand, like I don't understand sarcasm. It's difficult. I can give it I don't understand when somebody is being sarcastic to me, and there's some idioms. And jokes that I that just they weigh over my head, so I'm giving myself permission to ask if I'm confused, because otherwise, how will I know?

Michael Hingson  15:11

Yeah, it's it's pretty fascinating, and people deal with it in different ways. It's almost like being dyslexic, the same sort of concept you're dealing with, something where it's totally different and you may not even understand it at first, but so many people who realize they're dyslexic or have dyslexia, find ways to deal with it, and most people never even know, yeah, yeah.

Jennifer Shaw  15:39

Well, I mean, I've like, not this year, but within the last couple years, I've been diagnosed with dyslexia as well. And then come to find out that my father had it as well, but he just never mentioned. It just never came up.

Michael Hingson  15:51

Yeah, yeah. It's, it's pretty fascinating. But human the human psyche and the human body are very malleable, and we can get creative and deal with a lot of stuff, but I think the most important thing is that you figure out and you learn how to deal with it, and you don't make it something that is a negative in your life. It's the way you are. I've talked many times to people, and of course, it comes from me in part, from the being in the World Trade Center. Don't worry about the thing you can't control. And the fact is that autism is there, you're aware of it, and you deal with it, and maybe the day will come when we can learn to control it, but now at least you know what you're dealing with. And that's the big issue, yeah.

Jennifer Shaw  16:39

And I think it like you hit it on the nail on the head, is like, the reason so many adults are being diagnosed is because we know more about it. I distinctly remember somebody asking me shortly after I was diagnosed, and they asked me specifically, oh, what's it like to be autistic? And I was like, I don't know. What's it like to not be. It's all I know. You tell me what it's like to not be, and I can tell you what it's like to be. Says it's not something you can really, yeah, people just can't experience it, I guess.

Michael Hingson  17:08

Well, people ask me a lot, what's it like to be blind, and what is it like that you're just live in the dark? Well, I don't live in the dark, and that's something that is so unfortunate that we believe that eyesight is the only game in town, or most people do, and the reality is, blindness isn't about darkness. So I don't see, all right, the problem with most people is they do see, and that doesn't work for them. When suddenly the power goes out and you don't have lights anymore. Why do you distinguish one from the other? It's so unfortunate that we do that, but unfortunately, we collectively haven't taught ourselves to recognize that everyone has gifts, and we need to allow people to to manifest their gifts and not negate them and not demean the people just because they're different than us.

Jennifer Shaw  17:56

Yeah, and I know I've had I've had people tell me it's like, oh well, you don't look autistic, and I'm like, I don't know what you would expect me to look like, but I've honestly tried really hard not to think of of the autism and the ADHD. I tried really hard not to look at it as a disability. In my own life, I've looked at it as it's just my brain is wired differently. Yeah, I've explained this to my boys. It's, you know, our minds are always open. We can't filter anything that's coming in. And it's like our computer, you know, our brain, if you imagine our brain as being a computer, we've got every possible tab open trying to perform a million different tasks. We've got music playing here, video playing here. We're trying to search for this file. We can't find anything. And then every now and then, it just becomes very overwhelming, and we get the swirly wheel of death and we have to restart, yeah, but we can multitask like nobody's business until then well, and

Michael Hingson  18:45

the reality is, most people can learn to do it, although focusing on one thing at a time is always better anyway, but still, I hear what you're saying. My favorite story is a guy wanted to sell me life insurance when I was in college, and I knew at the time that people who were blind or had other disabilities couldn't buy life insurance because the insurance companies decided that we're a higher risk. It turns out that they weren't making that decision based on any real evidence or data. They just assumed it because that's the way the world was, and eventually that was dealt with by law. But this guy called up one day and he said, I want to sell you life insurance. Well, I thought I'd give him a shot at it, so I invited him over, and he came at three in the afternoon, and I didn't tell him in advance. I was blind, so I go to the door with my guide dog at the time Holland, and I opened the door, and he said, I'm looking for Mike Hinkson. And I said, I'm Mike hingson. You are. I'm Michael Hinkson. What can I do for you? Well, you didn't sound blind on the telephone. And I'm still wondering, what are the heck does that mean?

Jennifer Shaw  19:52

Yeah, yeah, exactly. It's just, I think, you know, it's a lack of understanding. And. You know, the inability to put yourself in somebody else's shoes?

Michael Hingson  20:03

Well, I think we have the ability, but we just don't, we don't learn how to use it. But you're right. It's all about education. And I think, personally, that all of us are teachers, or should be or can be. And so I choose not to take offense when somebody says you don't sound blind, or makes other kinds of comments. I i may push a little hard, but I can't be angry at them, because I know that it's all about ignorance, and they just don't know, and we as a society don't teach which we should do more of

Jennifer Shaw  20:38

Yeah, I know that once I made, you know, like I posted on my, you know, with talk to my friends and stuff about the fact that I have autism and that I just, I'm learning about it myself as well. I've had a lot of people come to me and ask me, it's like, well, what, what? What did you notice? How did you find out? And I think I might be on the spectrum. And there's, you know, and it's amazing how many people came out of the woodwork with queries about, you know, questions. And I was like, This is awesome. I can answer questions and educate, yeah,

Michael Hingson  21:09

well, and it's true, and the only way we can really learn and deal with some of the stuff is to have a conversation, and to have conversations with each other and be included in the conversation, and that's where it gets really comfortable, or uncomfortable is that people don't want to include you. Oh, I could end up like that person, or that person just clearly isn't, isn't as capable as I because they're blind or they have autism. Well, that's just not true, yeah, and it's, it's a challenge to deal with. Well, here's a question for you. What do you think is the biggest barrier that that people have or that they impose on themselves, and how do you move past it?

Jennifer Shaw  21:52

I think that the biggest barrier that people pose on them, pose on themselves, is doubting whether or not they're worthwhile and and I know I did the lat I did that for many years and and, like I said, it wasn't until I received my diagnosis, I thought maybe, maybe, you know, I won't know unless I try. So I got out of my comfort zone, and I surpassed my doubt, and I tried, and then I come to find out that, okay, I should publish. And I've had some, you know, I've had a lot of fun doing that, and I've seen some success in that as well.

Michael Hingson  22:24

One of my favorite quotes goes back to the original Star Wars movie Yoda, who said there is no try, do or do not. Don't try. I think that's absolutely true. Do it. That's why I also totally decided in the past to stop using the word failure, because failure is such an end all inappropriate thing. All right, so something didn't work out. The real question, and most of us don't learn to do it, although some of us are trying to teach them, but the biggest question is, why did this happen? What do I do about it? And we don't learn how to be introspective and analyze ourselves about that, I wrote a book that was published last year called Live like a guide dog, true stories from a blind man and his dogs about being brave, overcoming adversity and moving forward in faith, and it's all about teaching people from lessons I learned from my dogs about how to control fear and how to really step back when things happen and analyze what you do, what you fear, what you're about and how you deal with it. But there's no such thing as failure. It's just okay. This didn't work out right. Why? Why was I afraid? Or why am I afraid now? And what do I do about it? And we just don't see nearly as much analytical thinking on those kinds of subjects as we should.

Jennifer Shaw  23:49

Yeah, wasn't there a quote somewhere? I can't remember who it was. I think was Edison, maybe, that he didn't fail 99 times. He found 99 times how not to do it right, and he just kept going and going and going until we got it right. Yeah. The other

Michael Hingson  24:04

one I really like is the quote from Einstein that the definition of insanity is trying the same thing every time and expecting something different to happen. I think

Jennifer Shaw  24:12

they said that at my graduation from high school, you'll get what you got, yeah,

Michael Hingson  24:19

and you can decide to look for alternatives and look for ways to do it better, but, but it is, I think you're I don't know if it was Edison, but I'm going to assume it was who said that, but I think you're right, and it certainly makes a lot of

Jennifer Shaw  24:35

sense, yes, yeah, and I've tried to live by embracing, because I've told this to my kids as well, and I've embraced the idea that, you know, we learn better from our mistakes than we do from the things we did right,

Michael Hingson  24:49

although we could learn if we really thought about it, when we do something right and we go back and look at it and say, What could I have done to even make that better? And we usually don't do that well, that worked out well, so I don't have to worry about that. Well, exactly we should, you know,

Jennifer Shaw  25:07

2020 looking back and saying, Well, what would we have done if this had happened? We just sort of stop. It's like when you're looking for your keys in your house. Once you find them, you stop looking. You don't keep looking for possible places it could have been. You just stop the journey.

Michael Hingson  25:20

Or you don't look at why did I put them there? That's not where I usually put them.

Speaker 1  25:26

Yeah, exactly, yeah. So when

Michael Hingson  25:30

you discovered that you were on the spectrum, what did your husband think about

Jennifer Shaw  25:34

that? He thought it made sense. Um, that

Michael Hingson  25:37

explains a lot about you.

Jennifer Shaw  25:38

Yeah, a little bit might be on the spectrum as well. He might be ADHD, because he has a lot of the same traits as me. But he says, yeah, it's kind of not worth going and getting it checked out and stuff like that so

Michael Hingson  25:54

well, until he he wants to, then that probably makes sense.

Jennifer Shaw  25:59

And there's no reason. There's no reason. Yeah,

Michael Hingson  26:03

things go well, and that that's the big, important thing. But you look at at life, you look at what's going on, and you look at how you can change, what you need to change, and go forward Exactly. So tell me about your writing. You have, you have been writing a series. What did you do before the series? What was sort of the first things that you wrote that were published?

Jennifer Shaw  26:26

That I wrote a short story for in a classroom assignment, my teacher published it. Wrote a couple poems. I had a teacher, a different teacher published those. But this, the series that I've written is kind of my first foray into publishing and stuff. And then just prior to that, it was just writing stories for myself, or writing scenes that came to to mind that I wanted to explore, and a lot of them had to do with characters overcoming adversity, because that's how I felt. That was what was going on in my life,

Michael Hingson  26:57

and it was so what's the series about?

Jennifer Shaw  27:03

So it's a magic, fantasy action adventure, some supernatural suspense kind of all sprinkled in for good measure, because I get bored of my series is there's our world, our time, coexisting magical realm, but there's a veil that separates us, and we can't see across this veil because we don't have magic. But these creatures that do can and have and they've been the source of inspiration for our fairy tales and Monster stories. And then my main character, a young man by the name of Callum Walker, is born with the ability to use magic. He doesn't know why. He's trying to make the most of it. We do learn why as we go through the series, but he doesn't know. And because he has magic, he's able to cross this veil into this magical realm. And he's learning about this world. He's learning about the beings in it. Adventures ensue, and we follow him through the series, trying to figure out as he's trying to figure out who he is, where he belongs, because he's too magic for here, but to human care and then master these abilities to survive.

Michael Hingson  27:56

So has he figured out an answer to the question of why or where?

Jennifer Shaw  28:00

Not yet. No answers as we go, but he's learning more. Mostly it's he's learning to accept himself and to start to trust and open up. And, you know, instead of thinking that there must be something wrong with him, and that's why he has these abilities, he starts to think, Okay, well, what can I do with these abilities and stuff? So in a lot of ways, his journey mirrors mine

Michael Hingson  28:23

well, and he's asking questions, and as you ask questions, that's the most important thing you're willing to consider and explore, absolutely. So are these self published, or does a publisher publish them?

Jennifer Shaw  28:40

I'm indie, published through press company called Maverick first press.

Michael Hingson  28:44

Inc, have any of the books been converted to audio?

Jennifer Shaw  28:48

Not yet, but I am looking into it.

Michael Hingson  28:51

Some of us would like that I do read braille, and I could get a book in electronic form, and I can probably get it converted, but it'll be fun if you do get them into an audio format. I love magic and fantasy, and especially when it isn't too dark and too heavy. I've read Stephen King, but I've gotten away from reading a lot of Stephen King, just because I don't think I need things to be that dark. Although I am very impressed by what he does and how he comes up with these ideas, I'll never know.

Jennifer Shaw  29:20

Yeah, I know. I don't think that it's as dark as Stephen King, but it's certainly a little darker and older than Harry Potter series.

Michael Hingson  29:26

So, yeah, well, and and Harry Potter has been another one that has been certainly very good and has has encouraged a lot of kids to read. Yes and adults,

Jennifer Shaw  29:42

yeah, we don't all have to be middle grade students to enjoy a middle

29:46

grade book, right?

Michael Hingson  29:49

Oh, absolutely true. Well, so if you had to give one piece of advice or talk about experiences, to write. Writers who are trying to share, what would you what would you tell them?

Jennifer Shaw  30:05

I would say that writing and publishing, it's a marathon. It's not a race. Don't expect immediate success. You have to work for it. But don't give up. You know? I mean, a lot of times we tend to give up too soon, when we don't see results and stuff. But if you give up, you'll never reach the finish line if you continue going, you may, you know, eventually you'll reach the finish line, and maybe not what you expect, but you will reach that finish line if you keep going.

Michael Hingson  30:30

Yeah, we we are taught all too often to give up way too early. Well, it didn't work, so obviously it's not the right answer. Well, maybe it was the right answer. Most people aren't. JK Rowling, but at the same time, she went through a lot before she started getting her books published, but they're very creative. Yep, I would, I would still like to see a new series of Harry Potter books. Well, there is a guy who wrote James Potter his son, who's written a series, which is pretty good, but, you know, they're fun, yeah.

Jennifer Shaw  31:07

Oh, I mean, that's why we like to read them. We like to imagine, we like to, you know, put ourselves in the shoes of, you know, the superhero. And I think that we all kind of, you know, feel a connection to those unlikely heroes that aren't perfect. And I think that appeals to a lot of people.

Michael Hingson  31:27

I think it certainly does. I mean, that's clearly a lot of Harry Potter. He was certainly a kid who was different. Couldn't figure out why, and wasn't always well understood, but he worked at it, and that is something that we all can take a lesson to learn.

Speaker 1  31:45

Exactly yes. So

Michael Hingson  31:48

given everything that goes on with you, if the world feels overwhelming at some point, what kind of things do you do to ground yourself or or get calm again?

Jennifer Shaw  31:59

Well, writing is my self care. It's my outlet. It's therapy. Aside from writing, I I'm getting back into reading because I'm going to book signing events and talks and such, and everybody's recommending, oh, read this book, read this book, and I'm finding some hidden gems out there. So I'm getting back into reading, and that seems to be very relaxing, but I do go. I do have to step away from a lot of people sometimes and just be by myself. And I'll, I'll put my headphones on, and I'll listen to my my track. I guess it's not track anymore. It was Spotify. And I'll just go for a walk for an hour, let my mind wander like a video and see where it leads me, and then come back an hour later, and my husband's like, Oh, where'd you walk? Because, like, I have no idea, but you should hear the adventures I had, yeah,

Michael Hingson  32:44

both from what you read and what you thought

Jennifer Shaw  32:45

about, yeah, just the things going through my head. What? And then the same thing when I'm writing, I see it as a movie in my head, and I'm just writing down what I see a lot of times, long for the ride.

Michael Hingson  32:55

Yeah, your characters are writing it, and you're just there,

Jennifer Shaw  32:58

yeah, you know. And when I'm when I'm in the zone. I call those the zone moments. And I won't know what's going to happen until it starts to happen. And I'm writing a sentence, oh, I didn't know that was gonna happen. I want to see where this goes. And it'll take me to somewhere where I'm like, wow, that's an amazing scene. How could I, how did I think of that? Or, on the contrary, it'll take me somewhere and I'll be like, What is wrong with me? I know that came out of my head, but what is wrong with me? So, you know, it's a double edged sword,

Michael Hingson  33:26

but write them all down, because you never know where you can use them.

Jennifer Shaw  33:29

Oh, absolutely. I don't delete anything. I can just wind and then start again, see where it leads. And it never goes to the same place twice.

Michael Hingson  33:37

That's what makes it fun. It's an adventure. I don't know. I think there's an alien presence here somewhere.

Jennifer Shaw  33:44

Who knows? Maybe I'm the next step in evolution. Could

Michael Hingson  33:47

be or you come from somewhere else. And like I said, they put you down here to figure it out, and they'll come back and get you

Jennifer Shaw  33:57

well, but never know. There's so many things we don't understand. You know,

Michael Hingson  34:00

well, then that's true, but you know, all you can do is keep working at it and think about it. And you never know when you'll come up, come up with an answer well, or story or another story, right? So keep writing. So clearly, though, you exhibit a lot of resilience in a number of ways. Do you think resilience is something we're born with, or something that we learn, or both.

Jennifer Shaw  34:25

I think it's a little of both. You know, maybe we have a stronger determination or willfulness when we're born, but it can also be a part of our environment. You know, we develop things that we want to do. We develop desires and dreams and stuff. And you know the combination of the two, the you know, the willful resolve and the desire to dream and be better. And I think those two combined will drive us towards our our goals.

Michael Hingson  34:53

Now are your parents still with us? Yes. So what did they think when. You were diagnosed as being on the spectrum.

Jennifer Shaw  35:03

Um, I think my dad was more open to the idea. I don't think my mom believed it, but then she's kind of, she's kind of saying, like, okay, maybe, maybe it's, oddly enough, she was, you know, more open to the idea of me having ADHD than autism. And I just think there was just a lack of understanding. But as time has gone on, I think she sees it, not just in me, but I think she sees aspects of that in herself as well.

Michael Hingson  35:28

And in a sense, that's what I was wondering, was that they, they saw you grow up, and in some ways, they had to see what was going on. And I was wondering if, when you got an answer, if that was really something that helped them or that they understood?

Jennifer Shaw  35:46

Yeah, I I think so. Although I did internalize a lot of of my understandings and misconceptions about life, I internalized it a lot, and I was the annoying cousins because I just, you know, said the appropriate things at inappropriate times and didn't catch jokes and didn't understand sarcasm and and I was just the oddball one out. But I think now that my mom understands a little bit more about autism and ADHD, she's seeing the signs

Michael Hingson  36:13

well, and whether she understood it or not, she had to, certainly, as your mom, see that there was something going on. Well, I don't know my I'm whether she verbalized it or she just changed it out.

Jennifer Shaw  36:28

I think she was just, she was working two full time jobs raising five kids on her own. I think that there just wasn't enough time in the day to notice everything.

36:37

Yeah, well,

Michael Hingson  36:40

but it's always nice to really get an answer, and you you've accepted this as the answer, and hopefully they will, they will accept it as well. So that's a good thing.

Jennifer Shaw  36:54

Whether or not they accept it is up to them. I'm that's their choice. Yeah, yeah. It's their choice. The most important thing is that I'm understanding it.

Michael Hingson  37:04

Yeah, well, and then helps you move forward. Which is, which is a good thing? Yes. So do you think that vulnerability is part of resilience?

Jennifer Shaw  37:18

I think it's important to understand where we're vulnerable. It's like accepting your weaknesses. We all want to improve. We don't want to stay weak and vulnerable, but the only way to improve is to accept those and to understand those and to identify those so that we know where to improve. So I think that it is important.

Michael Hingson  37:38

I think it's crucial that we continue to work on our own ideas and attitudes and selves to be able to to move forward. And you're right. I think vulnerability is something that we all exhibit in one way or another, and when we do is that a bad thing? No, I don't think it should be. I think there are some people who think they're invulnerable to everything, and the reality is they're not

Jennifer Shaw  38:09

those narcissists. Yeah,

Michael Hingson  38:11

was getting there, but that's and that's exactly the problem. Is that they won't deal with issues at all. And so the fact of the matter is that they they cause a lot more difficulty for everyone. Yep, of course, they never think they do, but they do. Yeah.

Jennifer Shaw  38:30

I mean, if you don't accept the fact that you're not perfect and that you have weaknesses and vulnerabilities, then you're just it turns into you're just either denying it or you're completely ignorant. How do you

Michael Hingson  38:41

balance strength and softness? And because, you know when you're dealing with vulnerability and so on, and it happens, well, how do you, how do you bring all of it to balance?

Jennifer Shaw  38:50

Um, it's the yin and yang, right? Um, you know, the strength keeps you going, the softness keeps you open to accepting and learning.

Michael Hingson  38:59

Yeah, that makes sense. It gives you the opportunity to to go back and analyze and synthesize whatever you're thinking. Yes. Well, autism is, by the definitions that we face, considered a disability, which is fine, although my belief is that everybody on the planet has a disability, and for most people, as others have heard me say on this podcast, the disability that most people have is their light dependent, and they don't do well if suddenly the lights go out until they can find a smartphone or whatever, because the inventors, 147 years ago created the electric light bulb, which started us on a road of looking for ways to have light on demand whenever we wanted it and whenever we do want it, when that works, until suddenly the light on demand machine isn't directly available to us when light goes away. So I think that light on demand is a lovely thing, but the machines that provide it are. Only covering up a disability that most people have that they don't want to recognize.

Jennifer Shaw  40:05

And I'd also argue that the more dependent we become on technology, that the harder it is to adjust to, you know, the way we used to live. If you go to the grocery store, everything's automated. And if the power goes out at the grocery store, nobody knows how to count out change now, yeah,

Michael Hingson  40:22

they they cannot calculate on their own. I continue to work to be able to do that. So I like to to figure things out. People are always saying to me, How come you got the answers so quickly of how much change or how much to leave for a tip I practice, yeah, it's not magical. And the reality is, you don't always have a calculator, and a calculator is just one more thing to lug around. So why have it when you can just learn to do it yourself? Yeah?

Jennifer Shaw  40:49

Or we have a cell phone which has got everything on it.

Michael Hingson  40:52

Oh, I know, yeah, there is that too. But you know, the the thing about all of this is that we all have disabilities, is what I'm basically saying. But if you use disability in sort of the traditional sense, and by that I mean you have certain kinds of conditions that people call a disability, although I will submit absolutely that disability does not mean a lack of ability. But how do societal definitions of disability, kind of affect people more than the actual condition itself, whatever it is.

Jennifer Shaw  41:26

I think society as a whole tend to focus on the negatives and the limitations, and if you focus solely on those, then nobody can see beyond those to what a person can do, because there's a whole, you know, there's a whole lot out there that people can do. You can, you can learn to adjust to a lot of things. The brain is very malleable. And, you know, we're not just given one sense for one reason. You know, we have five senses, well, arguably more, depending on who you talk to, yeah, to feel out the world. And same thing with autism is, you know, I mean, I had a hard time those things that would come naturally to people, like socializing, learning to speak, even my son at the playground, he didn't know how to approach kids to ask him to play and but those things can be learned. They just have to spend the time doing it well.

Michael Hingson  42:19

And I hear you, do you think that autism is under the definition of disability?

Jennifer Shaw  42:26

I think it can be very debilitating. I think that, you know, and then some people suffer more severe. They're more ranges than than I do mine, but I do think that the brain can learn to adjust a lot, maybe not the same as everybody else, and there will be struggles and there will be challenges, and there'll be anxieties and and things is it is, in a way, a disability. It'll never go away. But I don't think it has to be debilitating

Michael Hingson  42:59

struggles and anxieties, but everyone experiences that in one way or another, and that's, of course, the point. Why should some of us be singled out?

Jennifer Shaw  43:07

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I do know, though, that with there's, I guess we call them an invisible disability, because I don't look autistic, I don't look ADHD, but I struggle inwardly. It's a lot more emotional. It's a lot more mental, you know, analyzing every conversation I've ever had. It's very exhausting and confusing, and it can lead to other things and stuff that, you know, I mean, I don't think everybody else goes around counting license plates obsessively, you know, adding up numbers on license plates and stuff. And if I don't, it can be very anxiety inducing. I don't think everybody else has to, you know, make notebooks worth of conversations to learn to talk to people and watch the world around them, to try to figure out how to act. I think for a lot of people, it comes naturally. And because I had to learn all those things on my own and stuff, it created a lot more anxiety than another person would have in that area, and life is already chaotic enough, you know, more anxiety on top of anxiety and such.

Michael Hingson  44:11

Yeah, but some of that we create ourselves and don't need to. And again, it gets back to the fact we all have different gifts, and so some people are much more socially outgoing, so they can do so many more things that seem like everyone should be able to do them. But again, not everyone has the same gifts. Yeah, I think that we need to recognize that. Sorry, go ahead. I was gonna say,

Jennifer Shaw  44:34

just like, not everybody has the same weaknesses, right? I learned. I think, you know, if we, if we learned to, you know, share the strengths that we have that might overcome somebody else's weaknesses and stuff. It would be a whole lot better place. Instead of trying to label everybody and segregate everybody based on their limitations, let's, let's look at their strengths and see which ones coordinate. Yeah.

Michael Hingson  44:56

How does HD? ADHD manifest itself?

Jennifer Shaw  45:00

Yeah, it's some, in a lot of ways, very similar to autism, and that's probably why it's now considered part of the autism spectrum. I have a difficult time focusing on things that I don't find intriguing, like, oh gosh, if I had to read a social studies textbook, I would go stark raving mad and fall asleep. And I've really hard time staying focused. Don't have to read the same paragraph 20 times, but you give me a textbook on physics, and I'm right in there, and I'll hyper focus for like, 12 straight hours, forgetting the world exists and don't eat, don't sleep, don't move, and I will just immerse myself in that. And then there's a difficult time regulating emotions so somebody gets upset about something for the most part. You know, you can calm yourself down and stuff like that. With autism and ADHD, it's really hard to regulate those emotions and come down from that hyper, hyper emotional state down to a normal state.

Michael Hingson  46:00

I can see that in a lot of ways, it can look very similar to to autism in terms of the way you're describing it. It makes, makes sense, yeah, which? Which is something one has to deal with. Well, if people stop trying to fix what makes us different? What could we do with the world? How would things be different?

Jennifer Shaw  46:22

I think the world be very interesting if we stopped trying to fix people and just started trying to accept people and see how, you know, like, I think that for one we would also be a lot more open to accepting people, but that would have to come first. And I think that would be amazing, because, you know, if we were all the same and we all tried to fit into the same mold, it's going to be a very boring place.

Michael Hingson  46:46

The thing that is interesting about what you just said, and the question really is, when we try to fix things, why do we need to fix things? What is it that's really broken? And that's of course, the big issue is that people make assumptions based on just their own experiences, rather than looking at other people and looking at their experiences. Is that really broken? As it goes back to like when I talk about blindness, yeah, am I broken? I don't think so. I do things differently. If I had been able to see growing up, that would have been nice. But you know what? It's not the end of the world not to and it doesn't make me less of a person, and you happen to be on the autism spectrum, that's fine. It would be nice if you didn't have to deal with that, and you could function and deal with things the way most people do. But there are probably advantages, and there's certainly reasons why you are the way you are, why I am the way I am. And so why should that be a bad thing?

Jennifer Shaw  47:48

I don't think it is. I mean, other than the fact that I would love to be, you know, not have to suffer with the stress and anxieties that I do, and the insecurities and the doubt and trying to figure out this world and where I belong and stuff, I wouldn't. I like the way my brain works. I like the way I think, you know, very What if, very out of the box, very creative mindsets. And I wouldn't change that for the world.

Michael Hingson  48:15

Yeah, and I think people really should be accepted the way they are. Certainly there are people who we classify as geniuses because they do something that we didn't think of, and it catches on, and it's creative. Einstein did it. I mean, for that matter, there's something that that Elon Musk has done that has created this vehicle that no one else created successfully before him. Now I'm not sure that he's the greatest business guy, because I hear that Tesla is not the most profitable company in the world, but that's fine. Or Steve Jobs and Bill Gates created things. Did they do it all?

Jennifer Shaw  48:56

Sorry, Sebastian Bach too. Yeah. I mean those prodigies, right?

Michael Hingson  49:01

And they didn't do they didn't do everything. I understand that Einstein wasn't the greatest mathematician in the world, but he was great at concepts, and he had other people who who helped with some of the math that he didn't do, but, but the reality is, we all have gifts, and we should be able to use those gifts, and other people should appreciate them and be able to add on to what they do. One thing I always told employees when I hired people, is my job isn't to boss you around because I hired you because you demonstrated enough that you can do the job I want you to do, but my job is not to boss you, but rather to use my skills to help enhance what you do. So what we need to do is to work together to figure out how I can help you be better because of the gifts that I bring that you don't have. Some people got that, and some people didn't.

Jennifer Shaw  49:50

Some people are just, they're less, you know, open minded. I think I don't know, like, less accepting of other people and less accepting of differences. And it's unfortunate. Passionate, you know, and that creates a lot of problems that, you know, they can't look beyond differences and to see the beauty behind it.

Michael Hingson  50:11

Yeah, and, and the fact of the matter is that, again, we were all on the earth in one way or another, and at some point we're going to have to learn to accept that we're all part of the same world, and working together is a better way to do it. Yeah, absolutely. How do we get there?

Jennifer Shaw  50:28

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe idealistic, you know, Star Trek society, or utopian society, you know. And maybe in 100 or 200 years, we'll get there. But if you think about 100 years ago, if you look at us 100 years ago, and then you think of all the technology that we have today, and that's in, like, one century is not a long time, given how long people have been on this planet. And look at all the things we've accomplished, technology wise, and look at all the great things that we have done, you know, and it's just imagine how many more, or how much, how much more we could do if we work together instead of working against each other.

Michael Hingson  51:06

Yeah, and that's of course, the issue is that we haven't learned yet to necessarily work together. To some, for some people, that gets back to narcissism, right? They, they're, they're the only ones who know anything. What do you do? But yeah, I hear you, but, but, you know, I think the day is going to come when we're going to truly learn and understand that we're all in this together, and we really need to learn to work together, otherwise it's going to be a real, serious issue. Hopefully that happens sooner than later,

Jennifer Shaw  51:39

yes, yeah, I don't think so, but it would be a nice to imagine what it would be like if it happened tomorrow.

Michael Hingson  51:47

Yeah, how much potential do you think is lost, not because of limitations, but, but rather because of how we define them?

Jennifer Shaw  51:58

I think we use limitations to set our boundaries, but by setting boundaries, we can never see ourselves moving past them, and nor do we try so. I think that setting limitations is hugely detrimental to our growth as as you know, creative minds.

Michael Hingson  52:18

I think also though limitations are what we often put on other people, and oftentimes out of fear because somebody is different than us, and we create limitations that that aren't realistic, although we try to pigeonhole people. But the reality is that limitations are are are also representations of our fears and our misconceptions about other people, and it's the whole thing of, don't confuse me with the facts.

Jennifer Shaw  52:51

Yes, yeah. And you know there's Yeah, like you said, there's these self limitations, but there's also limitations that we place on other people because we've judged them based on our understanding.

Michael Hingson  53:03

Yeah, and we shouldn't do that, because we probably don't really know them very well anyway, but I but I do think that we all define ourselves, and we each define who we are, and that gets back to the whole thing of, don't judge somebody by what they look like or or what you think about them. Judge people by their actions, and give people the opportunity to really work on showing you what they can do.

Jennifer Shaw  53:36

Absolutely, that's definitely a motto by which I've tried to live my life. I honestly don't know everybody out there. I mean, I don't think anybody does. And unless somebody gives me a reason or their behavior says otherwise, I'm going to assume that they're, you know, a good person, you know. I mean, if they, you know, if I assume this person is a good person, but maybe they smack me across face or take, you know, steal from me and stuff, then I'm going to judge those behaviors.

Michael Hingson  54:02

One of the things that I learned, and we talked about in my book live like a guide dog, is dogs, and I do believe this love unconditionally, unless something really hurts them, so that they just stop loving. But dogs love unconditionally, but they don't trust unconditionally. But the difference between dogs and people is again, unless something truly has been traumatic for a dog. Dogs are more open to trust than we are. They don't worry about, well, what's this guy's hidden agenda, or why is this woman the way she is? The fact is that they're open to trust and they're looking to develop trusting relationships, and they also want us to set the rules. They want us to be the pack leaders. I'm sure there are some dogs that that probably are better than the people they're with, but by and large, the dog wants the person to be the pack leader. They want them to tell the dog, what are the rules? So. Every guide dog I've had, it's all about setting boundaries, setting rules, and working with that dog so that we each know what our responsibilities to the relationship are. And I think absolutely dogs can get that just as much as people do. They're looking for us to set the rules, but they want that, and the fact of the matter is that they get it just as much as we do. And if that relationship really develops, the kind of trust that's possible, that's a bond that's second to none, and we should all honor that we could do that with with each other too. Yeah, there are people who have hidden agendas and people that we can learn not to trust because they don't want to earn our trust either. They're in it for themselves. But I don't think that most people are that way. I think that most people really do want to develop relationships.

Jennifer Shaw  55:51

Yeah, and another aspect of dogs too, is they're very humble, you know, they they don't, I mean, they probably do have some, you know, some egos, but for the most part, they're very humble, and they don't dwell on the mistakes of their past. They live in the moment. And I love Yeah, no, go ahead. They do absolutely they do

Michael Hingson  56:14

one of the things that I learned after September 11, because my contacted the folks at Guide Dogs for the Blind about it, my diet, my guide dog was Roselle, and I said, Do you think this affected her, the whole relationship? And the veterinarian I spoke with, who was the head of veterinary services, the guide dogs asked, did anything directly threaten her? And I said, no, nothing did. He said, Well, there's your answer. The fact is, dogs don't do what if they don't worry about what might have been or even what happened if it didn't affect them? They they do live in the moment when we got home after the events on September 11, I took roselle's harness off and was going to take her outside. She would have none of it. She ran off, grabbed her favorite tug bone and started playing tug of war with our retired guy dog, Lenny. It was over for her. It was done.

Jennifer Shaw  57:06

It's finished, the journey's done, and I'm living in this moment now, yeah,

Michael Hingson  57:10

different moment. I'm not going to worry about it, and you shouldn't either, which was the lesson to learn from that. Yes, but the reality is that dogs don't do what. If dogs really want to just do what they need to do. They know the rules, like I said. They want to know what you expect, and they will deal with that. And by and large, once you set rules, dogs will live by those rules. And if they don't, you tell them that you didn't do that the right way. You don't do that in a mean way. There are very strong ways of positively telling a dog, yeah, that's not what the right thing was to do. But by the same token, typically, that doesn't really happen once they learn the rules. My guide dog, Alamo, and I, as I tell people with this dog like any dog. I think I took a really good year before we had developed enough of a trusting relationship that we really knew what each other was thinking and that we could function seamlessly as a team. And make no mistake, it is all about it being a team. People always say, well, your dog led you down the stairs to get out of the World Trade Center. Oh, a lot of the time we couldn't even have worked work the dog and harness because there were too many people on the stairs. So the harness was on her, but she had to walk it heel behind me, and I was holding on to a stair rail because it was the only way to get out. And you know, the reality is that guide dogs don't lead. They guide. Their job is to make sure that we walk safely, not to know where to go and how to get there exactly.

Jennifer Shaw  58:45

And, I mean, how would, how would your dog know to go out of the building? They're looking for they're looking to us for guidance as much as we are to them.

Michael Hingson  58:53

And not only how to get out of the building, but if you teach a dog a way to get out of the building, what if that way is blocked, you know? And the reality is, there were technically four ways to get out of the building, one of which was not available, and that was elevators, because there was fire, and we knew it, so couldn't use elevators because the fire got in the elevator cars, which it did, that would be the end of anybody in the elevators. The other three ways were three stairwells, and fortunately, we were 18 floors below where the planes hit, so we were in a good place to be able to get out and did that. But even so, there was a lot of fear on the stairs, and so I needed to keep Rozelle focused by constantly praising her and encouraging her and saying, what a good dog that also helps create more of a trusting relationship, because she knows I'm doing okay and I'm not worried about her because I'm telling her what a great job she's doing, just doing the things she does,

Jennifer Shaw  59:53

I would almost say that that need to calm her down forced you to stay calm Correct. That helped you. Do that as much as it did her like that need,

Michael Hingson  1:00:04

and it helped other people. I've had people who've come up to me years later and said, we entered the stairwell as you were walking by, and we followed you down the stairs because you were talking to your dog, and you guys were doing great. And if you could then so could we

1:00:16

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Michael Hingson  1:00:19

So how has your life experience shaped the way you tell the stories and the kinds of things you talk about? Because I'm sure that has to have an effect.

Jennifer Shaw  1:00:28

Yeah, well, like I said, my arcs and my character's journeys, a lot of it mirrors my own journey through society and through life and stuff. But, you know, I mean, I see things and I wonder what ifs, and any, any situation, I will wonder what ifs, and it gets my mind going. It keeps my mind moving. Life experience is awesome. And there's a lot of there's life is awesome. There's a lot of things out there that can spark ideas and creativity. And I do think that when we were talking before about resilience being whether it's built or we're born with it and stuff and life experience is one of those things that can, you know, help to nurture that resilience.

Michael Hingson  1:01:15

Yeah, do you think having a different way of experiencing the world gives you a deeper understanding of character when writing and reading

Jennifer Shaw  1:01:26

absolutely, yeah, I see I'm analyzing things a lot more than somebody else who, you know, conversations come easy to them. They wouldn't necessarily analyze every word, every body language, every facial feature. So I think that, because I have to do that, it allows me to understand my characters and understand that that's my way of understanding people, is by looking at all these other cues.

Michael Hingson  1:01:49

Do you think it's a better way or a different way? I don't

Jennifer Shaw  1:01:52

think it's better. I think it's just different. It's how I've managed.

Michael Hingson  1:01:57

Yeah, it's just the way you you look at things, and you've adapted your your writing to take advantage of that, which is cool. Yes, absolutely. Well, this has really been a lot of fun, needless to say, and I'm glad we had a chance to do it. If people want to reach out to you, how can they do that?

Jennifer Shaw  1:02:16

They can find everything they need on my website. JM Shaw, author.com I have an email, I have links to my good reads. I've got links to Instagram and Facebook, and they can see all of my books there, and there's links to them online as well.

Michael Hingson  1:02:31

So j, m Shaw, S, H, A, W, author.com Correct. I remembered it. Wow. I'm impressed. Well, that's great. Well, I want to thank you for being here, and I want to thank all of you for being here with us. We really appreciate it. Please, wherever you're experiencing our podcast, give us a five star review. We value those very highly. And if you'd like to reach out to me, you can do so by going in and emailing me at Michael H i@accessibe.com M, I C H, A, E, L, H i at accessibe A, C, C, E, S, S i b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, w, w, w, dot Michael hingson.com/podcast and Michael hingson spelled M, I C H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s o n.com/podcast, if you know anyone else who ought to be a guest on This podcast. Who you think ought to be a guest, they probably should be. And we'd love you to give us an introduction. And Jennifer, that goes true for you as well. If you know anyone, we'd love to get introductions. We're always looking for more people to have on the podcast. But again, I just want to thank you for being here. This has absolutely been a lot of fun.

Jennifer Shaw  1:03:39

Well, thank you so much. I have a lot of fun. I mean, who doesn't want to go and talk about themselves?

Michael Hingson  1:03:42

About themselves, right? There you go. It's all about having fun, right? Yes, absolutely.

Michael Hingson  1:03:53

You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.