Episode 343 – Unstoppable Business Continuity Management Leader with Alex Fullick
Who knows the meaning of the term “Business Continuity management” without looking it up? Our guest this week, Alex Fullick, is intimately familiar with the term and its ramifications. I first met Alex when we were connected as participants in a conference in London this past October sponsored by Business Continuity International. The people involved with “Business Continuity management” were described to me as the “what if people”. They are the people no one pays attention to, but who plan for emergency and unexpected situations and events that especially can cause interruptions with the flow or continuity of business. Of course, everyone wants the services of the business continuity experts once something unforeseen or horrific occurs. Alex was assigned to introduce me at the conference. Since the conference I have even had the pleasure to appear on his podcast and now, he agreed to reciprocate. Our conversation covers many topics related to emergencies, business continuity and the mindsets people really have concerning business flow and even fear. Needless to say, this topic interests me since I directly participated in the greatest business interruption event we have faced in the world, the terrorist attacks on September 11, 2001. Alex freely discusses fear, emergency planning and how we all can improve our chances of dealing with any kind of emergency, personal or business related, by developing the proper mindset. He points out how so often people may well plan for emergencies at work and sometimes they even take the step of developing their own business continuity mindset, but they rarely do the same for their personal lives. Alex is the author of eight books on the subject and he now is working on book 9. You can learn more about them in our podcast show notes. I think you will gain a lot of insight from what Alex has to say and I hope his thoughts and comments will help you as you think more now about the whole idea of business continuity. About the Guest: Alex Fullick has been working in the Business Continuity Management, Disaster Recovery, and Operational Resilience industries as a consultant/contractor for just over 28 years. Alex is also the founder and Managing Director of StoneRoad, a consulting and training firm specializing in BCM and Resilience and is the author of eight books…and working on number nine. He has numerous industry certifications and has presented at prestigious conferences around the globe including Manila, Seoul, Bucharest, Brisbane, Toronto, and London (to name a few). In July of 2017 he created the highly successful and top-rated podcast focusing on Business Continuity and Resilience ‘Preparing for the Unexpected’. The show aims to touch on any subject that directly or indirectly touches on the world of disasters, crises, well-being, continuity management, and resilience. The first of its kind in the BCM and Resilience world and is still going strong after thirty plus seasons, reaching an audience around the globe. Alex was born in England but now calls the city of Guelph, Ontario, Canada, his home.
Ways to connect Alex: www.linkedin.com/in/alex-fullick-826a694 About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! 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Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello, everyone, wherever you happen to be, welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet and unexpected is anything that has nothing to do with inclusion or diversity. As I've said many times today, our guest is someone I got to meet last year, and we'll talk about that. His name is Alex Bullock, and Alex and I met because we both attended a conference in London in October about business continuity. And I'm going to let Alex define that and describe what that is all about. But Alex introduced me at the conference, and among other things, I convinced him that he had to come on unstoppable mindset. And so we get to do that today. He says he's nervous. So you know, all I gotta say is just keep staring at your screens and your speakers and and just keep him nervous. Keep him on edge. Alex, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're Alex Fullick ** 02:19 here. Thanks, Michael. I really appreciate the invite, and I'm glad to be here today. And yeah, a little nervous, because usually it's me on the other side of the microphone interviewing people. So I don't fit in this chair too often Michael Hingson ** 02:33 I've been there and done that as I recall, yes, Alex Fullick ** 02:37 yes, you were a guest of mine. Oh, I guess when did we do that show? A month and a half, two months ago? Or something, at least, Michael Hingson ** 02:45 I forget, yeah. And I said the only charge for me coming on your podcast was you had to come on this one. So there you go. Here I am. Yeah, several people ask me, Is there a charge for coming on your podcast? And I have just never done that. I've never felt that I should charge somebody to come on the podcast, other than we do have the one rule, which is, you gotta have fun. If you can't have fun, then there's no sense being on the podcast. So, you know, that works out. Well, tell us about the early Alex, growing up and, you know, all that sort of stuff, so that people get to know you a little bit. Alex Fullick ** 03:16 Oh, the early Alex, sure. The early Alex, okay, well, a lot of people don't know I was actually born in England myself, uh, Farnam Surrey, southwest of London, so until I was about eight, and then we came to Canada. Grew up in Thunder Bay, Northwestern Ontario, and then moved to the Greater Toronto Area, and I've lived all around here, north of the city, right downtown in the city, and now I live an hour west of it, in a city called Guelph. So that's how I got here. Younger me was typical, I guess, nothing Michael Hingson ** 03:56 special. Went to school, high school and all that sort of stuff. Yeah, yeah, no. Alex Fullick ** 04:02 Brainiac. I was working my first job was in hospitality, and I thought that's where I was going to be for a long time, because I worked my way up to I did all the positions, kitchen manager, Assistant Manager, cooks, bartender, server, did everything in there was even a company trainer at one point for a restaurant chain, and then did some general managing. But I got to a point where computers were going to start coming in to the industry, and I thought, well, I guess I should learn how to use these things, shouldn't I? And I went to school, learned how to use them, basic using, I'm not talking about building computers and networks and things like that, just the user side of things. And that was, did that for six months, and then I thought I was going back into the industry. And no fate had. Something different for me. What happened? Well, my best friend, who is still my best friend, 30 years later, he was working for a large financial institution, and he said, Hey, we need some help on this big program to build some call trees. When you're finished, he goes, get your foot in the door, and you could find something else within the bank. So I went, Okay, fine. Well, they called the position business recovery planner, and I knew absolutely nothing about business recovery or business continuity. Not a single thing. I'd never even heard the term yeah and but for some reason, I just took to it. I don't know what it was at the time, but I just went, this is kind of neat. And I think it was the fact that I was learning something different, you know, I wasn't memorizing a recipe for Alfredo sauce or something like that, you know, it was completely different. And I was meeting and working with people at every level, sitting in meetings with senior vice presidents and CEOs and giving them updates, and, you know, a data analyst, data entry clerk, and just talking. And I went, This is so much fun, you know, and that's I've been doing that now for over 28 years. Michael Hingson ** 06:14 Well, I I had not really heard much of the term business continuity, although I understand emergency preparedness and such things, because I did that, of course, going into the World Trade Center, and I did it for, well, partly to be prepared for an emergency, but also partly because I was a leader of an office, and I felt that I needed to know What to do if there were ever an emergency, and how to behave, because I couldn't necessarily rely on other people, and also, in reality, I might even be the only person in the office. So it was a survival issue to a degree, but I learned what to do. And of course, we know the history of September 11 and me and all that, but the reality is that what I realized many years later was that the knowledge that I learned and gained that helped me on September 11 really created a mindset that allowed me to be able to function and not be as I Put it to people blinded or paralyzed by fear, the fear was there. I would be dumb to say I wasn't concerned, but the fear helped me focus, as opposed to being something that overwhelmed and completely blocked me from being capable and being able to function. So I know what you're saying. Well, what exactly is business continuity? Alex Fullick ** 07:44 You know, there are people who are going to watch this and listen and they're going to want me to give a really perfect definition, but depending on the organization, depending on leadership, depending on the guiding industry organization out there, business continuity, Institute, Disaster Recovery Institute, ISO NIST and so many other groups out there. I'm not going to quote any of them as a definition, because if I if I say one the others, are going to be mad at me, yell at you, yeah, yeah. Or if I quote it wrong, they'll get mad at me. So I'm going to explain it the way I usually do it to people when I'm talking in the dog park, yeah, when they ask what I'm doing, I'll say Business Continuity Management is, how do you keep your business going? What do you need? Who do you need the resources when you've been hit by an event and and with the least impact to your customers and your delivery of services, yeah, and it's simple, they all get it. They all understand it. So if anyone doesn't like that, please feel free send me an email. I can hit the delete key just as fast as you can write it. So you know, but that's what a lot of people understand, and that's really what business continuity management is, right from the very beginning when you identify something, all the way to why we made it through, we're done. The incident's over. Michael Hingson ** 09:16 Both worked with at the Business Continuity international hybrid convention in October was Sergio Garcia, who kind of coordinated things. And I think it was he who I asked, what, what is it that you do? What's the purpose of all of the people getting together and having this conference? And he said, I think it was he who said it not you, that the the best way to think about it is that the people who go to this conference are the what if people, they're the ones who have to think about having an event, and what happens if there's an event, and how do you deal with it? But so the what if people, they're the people that nobody ever pays any attention to until such time as there is something that. Happens, and then they're in high demand. Alex Fullick ** 10:03 Yeah, that that's especially that being ignored part until something happened. Yeah, yeah. Well, well, the nice thing, one of the things I love about this position, and I've been doing it like I said, for 28 years, written books, podcasts, you've been on my show, YouTube channel, etc, etc, is that I do get to learn and from so many people and show the value of what we do, and I'm in a position to reach out and talk to so many different people, like I mentioned earlier. You know, CEOs. I can sit in front of the CEO and tell them you're not ready. If something happens, you're not ready because you haven't attended any training, or your team hasn't attended training, or nobody's contributing to crisis management or the business continuity or whatever you want to talk about. And I find that empowering, and it's amazing to sit there and not tell a CEO to their face, you know you're screwed. Not. You know, you don't say those kinds of things. No, but being able to sit there and just have a moment with them to to say that, however you term it, you might have a good relationship with them where you can't say that for all I know, but it being able to sit in front of a CEO or a vice president and say, hey, you know, this is where things are. This is where I need your help. You know, I don't think a lot of people get that luxury to be able to do it. And I'm lucky enough that I've worked with a lot of clients where I can't. This is where I need your help. You know. What's your expectation? Let's make it happen, you know, and having that behind you is it's kind of empowering, Michael Hingson ** 11:47 yeah, well, one of the things that I have start talking a little bit about with people when talk about emergency preparedness is, if you're really going to talk about being prepared for an emergency. One of the things that you need to do is recognize that probably the biggest part of emergency preparedness, or business continuity, however you want to term, it, isn't physical it's the mental preparation that you need to make that people generally don't make. You know, I've been watching for the last now, five or six weeks, all the flyers and things down here in California, which have been so horrible, and people talk about being prepared physically. You should have a go bag so that you can grab it and go. You should do this. You should do that. But the problem is nobody ever talks about or or helps people really deal with the mental preparation for something unexpected. And I'm going to, I'm going to put it that way, as opposed to saying something negative, because it could be a positive thing. But the bottom line is, we don't really learn to prepare ourselves for unexpected things that happen in our lives and how to react to them, and so especially when it's a negative thing, the fear just completely overwhelms us. Alex Fullick ** 13:09 Yeah, I agree with you. You know, fear can be what's that to fight, flight or freeze? Yeah, and a lot of people don't know how to respond when an event happens. And I think I'm going to take a step back, and I think that goes back to when we're young as well, because we have our parents, our grandparents, our teachers, our principals. You know, you can go achieve your goals, like everything is positive. You can go do that. Go do that. They don't teach you that, yeah, to achieve those goals, you're going to hit some roadblocks, and you need to understand how to deal with that when things occur. And use your example with the fires in California. If you don't know how to prepare for some of those small things, then when a big fire like that occurs, you're even less prepared. I have no idea how to deal with that, and it is. It's a really change in mindset and understanding that not everything is rosy. And unfortunately, a lot of people get told, or they get told, Oh, don't worry about it. It'll never happen. So great when it does happen. Well, then was that advice? Michael Hingson ** 14:25 Yeah, I remember after September 11, a couple of months after, I called somebody who had expressed an interest in purchasing some tape backup products for from us at Quantum. And I hadn't heard from them, and so I reached out, and I said, So what's going on? How would you guys like to proceed? And this was an IT guy, and he said, Oh, well, the president of the company said September 11 happened, and so since they did, we're not going to have to worry about that anymore. So we're not going to go forward. Or worth doing anything to back up our data, and I'm sitting there going, you missed the whole point of what backup is all about. I didn't dare say that to him, but it isn't just about an emergency, but it's also about, what if you accidentally delete a file? Do you have a way to go back and get it? I mean, there's so many other parts to it, but this guy's boss just basically said, Well, it happened, so it's not going to happen now we don't have to worry about it. Yeah, Alex Fullick ** 15:27 like you hear on the news. Well, it feels like daily, oh, once in 100 year storm, once in 100 year event, once in 100 year this. Well, take a look at the news. It's happening weekly, daily, yeah, yeah. One in 100 Michael Hingson ** 15:44 years thing, yeah. Nowadays, absolutely, there's so many things that are happening. California is going through a couple of major atmospheric rivers right now, as they're now calling it. And so Southern California is getting a lot of rain because of of one of the rivers, and of course, it has all the burn areas from the fires. So I don't know what we'll see in the way of mudslides, but the rain is picking up. Even here, where I live, we're going to get an inch or more of rain, and usually we don't get the rain that a lot of other places get. The clouds have to go over a lot of mountains to get to us, and they lose their moisture before they do that. Yeah, Alex Fullick ** 16:23 yeah. We just had a whole pile of snow here. So we had a snowstorm yesterday. So we've got about 20 centimeters of snow out there that hasn't been plowed yet. So bit of Michael Hingson ** 16:36 a mess. There you go. Well, you know, go out and play on the snow. Well, Alex Fullick ** 16:41 the dog loves it, that's for sure. Like troubling it, but, yeah, Michael Hingson ** 16:46 I don't think my cat would like it, but the animal would like it. He'd go out and play in it. If it were here, we don't get much snow here, but Yeah, he'd play it. But, but it is. It is so interesting to really talk about this whole issue of of business continuity, emergency preparedness, whatever you want to consider it, because it's it's more than anything. It's a mindset, and it is something that people should learn to do in their lives in general, because it would help people be a lot more prepared. If people really created a mindset in themselves about dealing with unexpected things, probably they'd be a little bit more prepared physically for an emergency, but they would certainly be in a lot better shape to deal with something as like the fires are approaching, but they don't, but we don't do that. We don't teach that. Alex Fullick ** 17:43 No, we it's interesting too, that a lot of those people, they'll work on projects in their organization, you know, and they will look at things well, what can go wrong, you know, and try to mitigate it and fix, you know, whatever issues are in the way or remove roadblocks. They're actually doing that as part of their project. But when it comes to themselves, and they have to think about fires or something like that, is now that won't happen, you know. And wait a minute, how come you've got the right mindset when it comes to your projects at work, but you don't have that same mindset when it comes to your own well being, or your families, or whatever the case may be. How come it's different? You go from one side to the other and it I've noticed that a few times with people and like, I don't get it. Why? Why are you so you have the right mindset under one circumstance and the other circumstance, you completely ignore it and don't have the mindset, Michael Hingson ** 18:45 yeah, which, which makes you wonder, how much of a mindset Do you really have when it comes to work in all aspects of it? And so one of the things that I remember after September 11, people constantly asked me is, who helped you down the stairs, or was there somebody who was responsible for coming to get you, to take you downstairs and and the reality is, as I said, I was the leader. I was helping other people go downstairs. But by the same token, I'm of the opinion that in buildings like the World Trade Center towers, there is people talk about the buddy system. So if somebody is is in the building, you should have a buddy. And it doesn't even need to be necessarily, in the same office, but there should be an arrangement so that there is somebody looking out for each each other person. So everybody should have a buddy. I'm of the opinion it isn't a buddy. There should be two buddies, and at least one of them has to be outside of the office, so that you have three people who have to communicate and develop those lines of communications and work through it. And by that way, you you have a. Better chance of making sure that more people get whatever communications are necessary. Alex Fullick ** 20:06 Yeah, you create your like a support network, absolutely, Michael Hingson ** 20:10 and I think at least a triumvirate makes a lot more sense than just a buddy. Yeah, Alex Fullick ** 20:14 you you might be freaked out, you know, nervous shaking, but with a couple of people standing there, you know, talking to you, you're going to come right back hopefully. You know, with that, the calmer, you know, stop shaking when a couple of people are there. Yeah, you a lot of times when you have the same one person doing it, usually, oh, you're just saying that because you have to. But when you two people doing it, it's like, okay, thank thanks team. You know, like you're really helping. You know, this is much better. Michael Hingson ** 20:48 Yeah, I think it makes a lot more sense, and especially if one of them isn't necessarily a person who's normally in your work pattern that brings somebody in from someone with the outside who approaches things differently because they don't necessarily know you or as well or in the same way as your buddy who's maybe next door to you in the office, right across the hall or next door, or whatever. Yeah, yeah. I agree. I think it makes sense well, the conference that we were at a lot to well, to a large degree, and at least for my presentation, was all about resilience. What is resilience to you? How's that for a general question that Alex Fullick ** 21:31 has become such a buzzword, I know it Michael Hingson ** 21:35 really is, and it's unfortunate, because when, when we start hearing, you know, resilience, or I hear all the time amazing and so many times we get all these buzzwords, and they they really lose a lot of their value when that happens. But still, that's a fair question. I Alex Fullick ** 21:53 do think the word resilience is overused, and it's losing its meaning. You know, dictionary meaning, because it's just used for everything these days. Yeah, you know, my neighbor left her keys. Sorry. Her daughter took her house keys this morning by accident. She couldn't get into her house when she got him back, and she had a comment where she said, you know, oh, well, I'm resilient, but really, you just went and got some Keith, how was that so? So I'm, I'm starting to get to the point now, when people ask me, you know, what's resilience to you? What's it mean to you? I just, I start to say, Now, does it matter? Yeah, my definition is fine for me, if you have a definition of it for yourself that you understand you you know what it means, or your organization has a definition, we'll take it and run. Yeah, you know what it means. You're all behind that. Meaning. We don't need a vendor or some other guiding industry organization to say this is, this must be your definition of resilience. It's like, well, no, you're just wordsmithing and making it sound fancy. You know, do it means what it means to you? You know, how, how do you define it? If that's how you define it, that's what it means, and that's all that matters. My definition doesn't matter. Nobody else's definition matters, you know, because, and it's become that way because the term used, you know, for everything these days. Yeah, I Michael Hingson ** 23:30 think that there's a lot of value in if a person is, if we use the dictionary definition, resilient, they they Well, again, from my definition, it gets back to the mindset you establish. You establish a mindset where you can be flexible, where you can adapt, and where you can sometimes think outside the box that you would normally think out of, but you don't panic to do that. You've learned how to address different things and be able to focus, to develop what you need to do to accomplish, whatever you need to accomplish at any unexpected time. Alex Fullick ** 24:06 Yeah, and you're calm, level headed, you know, you've got that right mindset. You don't freak out over the small things, you know, you see the bigger picture. You understand it. You know, I'm here. That's where I need to go, and that's where you focus and, you know, sweat all those little things, you know. And I think, I think it's, it's kind of reminds me that the definitions that are being thrown out there now reminds me of some of those mission and vision statements that leadership comes up with in their organizations, with all this, oh, that, you know, you read the sentence and it makes no sense whatsoever, yeah, you know, like, what? Michael Hingson ** 24:45 What's so, what's the wackiest definition of resilience that you can think of that you've heard? Alex Fullick ** 24:51 Um, I don't know if there's a wacky one or an unusual one. Um, oh, geez. I. I know I've heard definitions of bounce forward, bounce back, you know, agility, adaptability. Well, your Michael Hingson ** 25:07 car keys, lady this morning, your house key, your house key, lady this morning, the same thing, yeah, yeah. I don't resilient just because she got her keys back. Yeah, really, yeah. Well, Alex Fullick ** 25:17 that's kind of a wacky example. Yeah, of one, but I don't think there's, I've heard any weird definitions yet. I'm sure that's probably some out there coming. Yeah, we'll get to the point where, how the heck did are you defining resilience with that? Yeah? And if you're looking at from that way, then yeah, my neighbor with the keys that would fit in right there. That's not resilient. You just went and picked up some keys. Michael Hingson ** 25:45 Yeah. Where's the resilience? How did you adapt? You the resilience might be if you didn't, the resilience might be if you didn't panic, although I'm sure that didn't happen. But that would, that would lean toward the concept of resilience. If you didn't panic and just went, Well, I I'll go get them. Everything will be fine, but that's not what people do, Alex Fullick ** 26:08 yeah? Well, that that is what she did, actually. She just as I was shoveling snow this morning, she goes, Oh, well, I'll just go get her, get them, okay, yeah. Does that really mean resilience, or Does that just mean you went to pick up the keys that your daughter accidentally took Michael Hingson ** 26:24 and and you stayed reasonably level headed about it, Alex Fullick ** 26:28 you know, you know. So, you know, I don't know, yeah, if, if I would count that as a definition of resilience, but, or even I agree resilience, it's more of okay, yeah, yeah. If, if it's something like that, then that must mean I'm resilient when I forget to pull the laundry out after the buzzer. Oh yeah, I gotta pull the laundry out. Did that make me resilient? Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 26:52 absolutely, once you pulled it out, you weren't resilient, not until then, Alex Fullick ** 26:57 you know. So, so I guess it's you know, how people but then it comes down to how people want to define it too. Yeah, if they're happy with that definition, well, if it makes you happy, I'm not going to tell you to change Michael Hingson ** 27:11 it. Yeah, has but, but I think ultimately there are some some basic standards that get back to what we talked about earlier, which is establishing a mindset and being able to deal with things that come out of the ordinary well, and you're in an industry that, by and large, is probably viewed as pretty negative, you're always anticipating the emergencies and and all the unexpected horrible things that can happen, the what if people again, but that's that's got to be, from a mindset standpoint, a little bit tough to deal with it. You're always dealing with this negative industry. How do you do that? You're resilient, I know. But anyway, yeah, Alex Fullick ** 27:56 really, I just look at it from a risk perspective. Oh, could that happen to us? You know, no, it wouldn't, you know, we're we're in the middle of a Canadian Shield, or at least where I am. We're in the middle of Canadian Shield. There's not going to be two plates rubbing against each other and having an earthquake. So I just look at it from risk where we are, snowstorms, yep, that could hit us and has. What do we do? Okay, well, we close our facility, we have everyone work from home, you know, etc, etc. So I don't look at it from the perspective of doom and gloom. I look at it more of opportunity to make us better at what we do and how we prepare and how we respond and how we overcome, you know, situations that happen out there, and I don't look at it from the oh, here comes, you know, the disaster guy you know, always pointing out everything that's wrong. You know, I'd rather point out opportunities that we have to become as a team, organization or a person stronger. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 29:01 I guess it's not necessarily a disaster. And as I said earlier, it could very well be that some unexpected thing will happen that could be a very positive thing. But again, if we don't have the mindset to deal with that, then we don't and the reality is, the more that we work to develop a mindset to deal with unexpected things, the more quickly we can make a correct analysis of whatever is going on and move forward from it, as opposed to letting fear again overwhelm us, we can if we practice creating This mindset that says we really understand how to deal with unexpected situations, then we are in a position to be able to the more we practice it, deal with it, and move forward in a positive way. So it doesn't need to be a disaster. September 11 was a disaster by any standard, but as I tell people. People. While I am still convinced that no matter what anyone might think, we couldn't figure out that September 11 was going to happen, I'm not convinced that even if all the agencies communicated, they would have gotten it because and I talk about trust and teamwork a lot, as I point out, a team of 19 people kept their mouth shut, or a few more who were helping in the planning of it, and they pulled off something that basically brought the world to its knees. So I'm not convinced that we could have stopped September 11 from happening. At least I haven't heard something that convinces me of that yet. But what each of us has the ability to do is to determine how we deal with September 11. So we couldn't prevent it, but we can certainly all deal with or address the issue of, how do we deal with it going forward? Yeah, Alex Fullick ** 30:52 I agree. I I was actually in a conversation with my niece a couple of months ago. We were up at the cottage, and she was talking about school, and, you know, some of the people that she goes to school with, and I said, Well, you're never going to be able to change other people. You know, what they think or what they do. I said, what you can control is your response. You know, if, if they're always picking on you, the reason they're picking on you is because they know they can get a rise out of you. They know they it. Whatever they're saying or doing is getting to you, so they're going to keep doing it because it's empowering for them. But you can take away that empowerment if you make the right choices on how you respond, if you just shrug and walk away. I'm simplifying it, of course, yeah, if you just shrug and walk away. Well, after a while, they're going to realize nothing I'm saying is getting through, and they'll move away from you. They'll they won't bug you anymore, because they can't get a rise out. They can't get a rise out of you. So the only thing you can control is how you respond, you know. And as you keep saying, it's the mindset. Change your mindset from response to, you know, I'm prepared for what this person's going to say, and I'm not going to let it bother me. Yeah? Michael Hingson ** 32:08 Well, bullying is really all about that. Yeah, people can't bully if you don't let yourself be bullied. Yep, and whether it's social media and so many other things, you can't be bullied if you don't allow it and if you ignore it or move on or get help to deal with the issue if it gets serious enough, but you don't need to approach it from a shame or fear standpoint, or you or you shouldn't anyway, but that's unfortunately, again, all too often. What happens when we see a lot of teenage suicides and so on, because people are letting the bullies get a rise out of them, and the bullies win. Alex Fullick ** 32:51 Yep, yep. And as I told her, I said, you just mentioned it too. If it gets out of hand or becomes physical, I said, then you have to take action. I don't mean turning around and swinging back. I said, No, step up. Go get someone who is has authority and can do something about it. Yeah, don't, don't run away. Just deal with it differently, you know. And don't, don't start the fight, because then you're just confirming that I'm the bully. I can do this again. Yeah, you're, you're giving them license to do what they want. Yeah, but stand up to them, or tell, depending on the situation, tell someone higher up in authority that can do something and make make a change, but you have to be calm when you do it. Michael Hingson ** 33:39 I remember when I was at UC Irvine, when I was going to college, my had my first guide dog, Squire. He was a golden retriever, 64 pounds, the most gentle, wonderful dog you could ever imagine. And unfortunately, other students on campus would bring their dogs. It was a very big campus, pretty, in a sense, rural, and there were only about 2700 students. And a bunch of students would bring their dogs to school, and they would just turn the dogs loose, and they go off to class, and then they find their dogs at the end of the day. Unfortunately, some of the dogs developed into a pack, and one day, they decided they were going to come after my guide dog. I think I've told this story a couple times on on this podcast, but what happened was we were walking down a sidewalk, and the dogs were coming up from behind, and they were growling and so on. And squire, my guide dog, jerked away from me. I still held his leash, but he jerked out of his harness, out of my hand, and literally jumped up in the air, turned around and came down on all fours, hunkered down and growled at these dogs all in this the well, about a two second time frame, totally shocked the dogs. They just slunked away. Somebody was describing it to me later, and you know, the dog was very deliberate about what he did. Of course, after they left, he comes over and He's wagging his tail. Did I do good or what? But, but he was very deliberate, and it's a lesson to to deal with things. And he never attacked any of the dogs, but he wasn't going to let anything happen to him or me, and that's what loyalty is really all about. But if something had happened and that hadn't worked out the way expected, then I would have had to have gone off and and I, in fact, I did talk to school officials about the fact that these dogs were doing that. And I don't even remember whether anybody did anything, but I know I was also a day or so later going into one of the the buildings. Before he got inside, there was a guy I knew who was in a wheelchair, and another dog did come up and started to try to attack squire, this guy with in the wheelchair, pulled one of the arms off his chair and just lambasted the dog right across the head, made him back up. Yeah, you know. But it was that people shouldn't be doing what they allowed their dog. You know, shouldn't be doing that, but. But the bottom line is, it's still a lesson that you don't let yourself be bullied. Yeah, yep, and there's no need to do that, but it is a it's a pretty fascinating thing to to see and to deal with, but it's all about preparation. And again, if we teach ourselves to think strategically and develop that skill, it becomes just second nature to do it, which is, unfortunately, what we don't learn. Alex Fullick ** 36:48 Yeah, I didn't know that as a kid, because when I was a little kid and first came to Canada, especially, I was bullied because, well, I had a funny voice. Michael Hingson ** 36:57 You did? You don't have that anymore, by the way, no, Alex Fullick ** 37:01 if I, if I'm with my mom or relatives, especially when I'm back in England, words will start coming back. Yeah, there are words that I do say differently, garage or garage, yeah. You know, I hate garage, but garage, yeah, I still say some words like that, Michael Hingson ** 37:18 or process, as opposed to process. Alex Fullick ** 37:21 Yeah, so, you know, there's something like that, but as a kid, I was bullied and I there was, was no talk of mindset or how to deal with it. It's either put up with it or, you know, you really couldn't turn to anybody back then, because nobody really knew themselves how to deal with it. Yeah, bullies had always been around. They were always in the playground. So the the mechanisms to deal with it weren't there either. It wasn't till much later that I'm able to to deal with that if someone said some of the things now, right away, I can turn around because I've trained myself to have a different mindset and say that, no, that's unacceptable. You can't talk to that person, or you can't talk to me that way. Yeah, you know, if you say it again, I will, you know, call the police or whatever. Never anything where I'm going to punch you in the chin, you know, or something like that. Never. That doesn't solve anything. No, stand up saying, you know, no, I'm not going to accept that. You know, which is easier now, and maybe that just comes with age or something, I don't know, but back then, no, it was, you know, that that kind of mechanism to deal with it, or finding that inner strength and mindset to do that wasn't there, Michael Hingson ** 38:43 right? But when you started to work on developing that mindset, the more you worked on it, the easier it became to make it happen. Yep, agreed. And so now it's a way of life, and it's something that I think we all really could learn and should learn. And my book live like a guide dog is really all about that developing that mindset to control fear. And I just think it's so important that we really deal with it. And you know, in this country right now, we've got a government administration that's all about chaos and fear, and unfortunately, not nearly enough people have learned how to deal with that, which is too bad, yep, although, Alex Fullick ** 39:30 go ahead, I was going to say it's a shame that, you know, some a lot of people haven't learned how to deal with that. Part of it, again, is we don't teach that as well. So sometimes the only thing some people know is fear and bullying, because that's all they've experienced, yeah, either as the bully or being bullied. So they they don't see anything different. So when it happens on a scale, what we see right now it. It's, well, that's normal, yeah, it's not normal, actually. You know, it's not something we should be doing. You know, you should be able to stand up to your bully, or stand up when you see something wrong, you know, and help because it's human nature to want to help other people. You know, there's been so many accidents people falling, or you'll need their snow removed, where I am, and people jump in and help, yeah? You know, without sometimes, a lot of times, they don't even ask. It's like, oh, let me give you a hand, Michael Hingson ** 40:33 yeah. And we had that when we lived in New Jersey, like snow removal. We had a Boy Scout who started a business, and every year he'd come around and clear everybody's snow. He cleared our snow. He said, I am absolutely happy to do it. We we wanted to pay him for it, but he was, he was great, and we always had a nice, clean driveway. But you know, the other side of this whole issue with the mindset is if we take it in a more positive direction, look at people like Sully Sullenberger, the pilot and the airplane on the Hudson, how he stayed focused. He had developed the mindset and stayed focused so that he could deal with that airplane. That doesn't mean that he wasn't afraid and had concerns, but he was able to do something that was was definitely pretty fantastic, because he kept his cool, yeah, Alex Fullick ** 41:23 I think he knew, and others in other situations know that if you're freaking out yourself, you're not going to fix the issue, you're going to make it worse. We see that in Hollywood tends to do that a lot. In their movies, there's always a character who's flipping out, you know, panicking, going crazy and making everything worse. Well, that does happen, you know, if you act that way, you're not going to resolve your situation, whatever you find yourself in, you know. And I tell people that in business continuity when we're having meetings, well, we'll figure it out when it happens. No, you don't know how you'll behave. You don't know how you'll respond when, oh, I don't know an active shooter or something. You have no idea when you hear that someone you know just got shot down in the lobby. Are you going to tell me you're going to be calm? You sorry? You know you're going to be calm and just okay, yeah, we can deal with it. No, you're going to get a wave of panic, yeah, or other emotions coming over you, you know. And you have to have that mindset. You can still be panicked and upset and freaked out, or however you want to describe that, but you know, I have to stay in control. I can't let that fear take over, or I'm going to get myself in that situation as well. Yeah, I have to be able to manage it. Okay, what do I have to do? I gotta go hide. You know, I'm not saying you're not sweating, you know, with nervousness like that, but you understand, gotta think beyond this if I want to get out of this situation. You know, I'm going to take these people that are sitting with me, we're going to go lock ourselves in the storage closet, or, you know, whatever, right? But have that wherewithal to be able to understand that and, you know, be be safe, you know, but freaking out, you're only contributing to the situation, and then you end up freaking out other people and getting them panicked. Course, you do. They're not, you know, they don't have the right mindset to deal with issues. And then you've got everyone going in every direction, nobody's helping each other. And then you're creating, you know, bigger issues, and Michael Hingson ** 43:37 you lose more lives, and you create more catastrophes all the way around. I remember when I was going down the stairs at the World Trade Center, I kept telling Roselle what a good job she was doing, good girl. And I did that for a couple of reasons. The main reason was I wanted her to know that I was okay and I'm not going to be influenced by fear. But I wanted her to feel comfortable what what happened, though, as a result of that, and was a lesson for me. I got contacted several years later one time, specifically when I went to Kansas City to do a speech, and a woman said she wanted to come and hear me because she had come into the stairwell just after, or as we were passing her floor, which was, I think, the 54th floor. Then she said, I heard you just praising your dog and being very calm. And she said, I and other people just decided we're going to follow you down the stairs. And it was, it was a great lesson to understand that staying focused, no matter what the fear level was, really otherwise, staying focused and encouraging was a much more positive thing to do, and today, people still don't imagine how, in a sense, comet was going down the stairs, which doesn't mean that people weren't afraid. But several of us worked to really keep panic out of the stairwell as we were going down. My friend David did he panicked, but then he. He walked a floor below me and started shouting up to me whatever he saw on the stairwell, and that was really for his benefit. He said to have something to do other than thinking about what was going on, because he was getting pretty scared about it. But what David did by shouting up to me was he acted as a focal point for anyone on the stairs who could hear him, and they would hear him say things like, Hey, Mike, I'm at the 43rd floor. All's good here. Everyone who could hear him had someone on the stairs who was focused, sounded calm, and that they could listen to to know that everybody was okay, which was so cool, and Alex Fullick ** 45:38 that that probably helped them realize, okay, we're in the right direction. We're going the right way. Someone is, you know, sending a positive comments. So if, if we've got, you know, three, if he's three floors below us, we know at least on the next three floors, everything is okay. Michael Hingson ** 45:56 Well, even if they didn't know where he wasn't right, but even if he they didn't know where he was in relation to them, the fact is, they heard somebody on the stairs saying, I'm okay, yeah, whether he felt it, he did sound it all the way down the stairs. Yeah, and I know that he was panicking, because he did it originally, but he got over that. I snapped at him. I just said, Stop it, David, if Rosell and I can go down these stairs, so can you. And then he did. He focused, and I'm sure that he had to have helped 1000s of people going down the stairs, and helped with his words, keeping them calm. Alex Fullick ** 46:32 Yeah, yeah. It makes a difference, you know. Like I said earlier, you doesn't mean you're still not afraid. Doesn't mean that, you know, you're not aware of the negative situation around you. It's and you can't change it, but you can change, like I said earlier, you can change how you respond to it. You can be in control that way, right? And that's eventually what, what he did, and you you were, you know, you were controlled going downstairs, you know, with with your guide dog, and with all these people following you, and because of the way you were, like, then they were following you, yeah, and they remained calm. It's like there's someone calling up from below who's safe. I can hear that. I'm listening to Michael. He'll tell his dog how well behaved they are. And he's going down calmly. Okay, you know, I can do this. And they start calming down, Michael Hingson ** 47:28 yeah, what's the riskiest thing you've ever done? Oh, word. Must have taken a risk somewhere in the world, other than public speaking. Oh, yeah, public speaking. Alex Fullick ** 47:40 I still get nervous the first minute. I'm still nervous when I go up, but you get used to it after a while. But that first minute, yeah, I'm nervous. Oh, that there's, I have a fear of heights and the so the the two, two things that still surprised me that I did is I climbed the Sydney bridge, Harbor Bridge, and, oh, there's another bridge. Where is it? Is it a Brisbane? They're both in Australia. Anyway. Climb them both and have a fear of heights. But I thought, no, I gotta, I gotta do this. You know, I can't be afraid of this my entire life. And I kept seeing all these people go up there in groups, you know, on tours. And so I said, Okay, I'm going to do this. And I was shaking nervous like crazy, and went, What if I fall off, you know, and there's so many different measures in place for to keep you safe. But that that was risky, you know, for me, it felt risky. I was exhilarated when I did it. Though, would you do it again? Oh, yeah, in a heartbeat. Now, there you go. I'm still afraid of heights, but I would do that again because I just felt fantastic. The other I guess going out and being self employed years ago was another risky thing. I had no idea, you know about incorporating myself, and, you know, submitting taxes, you know, business taxes, and, you know, government documents and all this and that, and invoicing and things like that. I had no idea about that. So that was kind of risky, because I had no idea how long I'd be doing it. Well, I started in what 2007, 2007, I think so, 18 years, yeah, so now it's like, I can't imagine myself not doing it, you know, so I'm but I'm always willing to try something new these days. You know, even starting the podcast seven and a half years ago was risky, right? I had no idea. Nobody was talking about my industry or resilience or business continuity or anything back then, I was the first one doing it, and I'm the longest one doing it. Um, I've outlived a lot of people who thought they could do it. I'm still going. So that started out risky, but now I. Imagine not doing it, yeah, you know. And you know, it's, you know, I guess it's, it's just fun to keep trying new things. You know, I keep growing and, you know, I've got other plans in the works. I can't give anything away, but, you know, I've got other plans to try. And they'll, they'll be risky as well. But it's like, Michael Hingson ** 50:21 no, let's go for it. Have you ever done skydiving or anything like that? No, I haven't done that. I haven't either. I know some blind people who have, but I just, I've never done that. I wouldn't Alex Fullick ** 50:32 mind it. It's that might be one of those lines where should I? I'm not sure about this one, you know, but it is something that I I think I wouldn't do it on my own. I think I would have to be one of those people who's connected with someone else, with someone Michael Hingson ** 50:51 else, and that's usually the way blind people do it, needless to say, but, and that's fine, I just have never done it. I haven't ever had a need to do it, but I know I can sit here and say, I'm not afraid to do it. That is, I could do it if it came along, if there was a need to do it, but I don't. I don't have a great need to make that happen. But you know, I've had enough challenges in my life. As I tell people, I think I learned how to deal with surprises pretty early, because I've been to a lot of cities and like, like Boston used to have a rep of being a very accident prone city. Just the way people drive, I could start to cross the street and suddenly I hear a car coming around the corner, and I have to move one way or the other and draw a conclusion very quickly. Do I back up or do I go forward? Because the car is not doing what it's supposed to do, which is to stop, and I have to deal with that. So I think those kinds of experiences have helped me learn to deal with surprise a little bit too. Alex Fullick ** 51:52 Yeah, well, with the skydiving, I don't think I'd go out of my way to do it, but exactly came along, I think I would, you know, just for the thrill of saying, I did it, Michael Hingson ** 52:03 I did it, yeah, I went ice skating once, and I sprained my ankle as we were coming off the ice after being on the ice for three hours. And I haven't gone ice skating again since. I'm not really afraid to, but I don't need to do it. I've done it. I understand what it feels like. Yeah, yeah. So it's okay. Have you had any really significant aha moments in your life, things that just suddenly, something happened and went, Ah, that's that's what that is, or whatever. Alex Fullick ** 52:30 Well, it does happen at work a lot, dealing with clients and people provide different perspectives, and you just, Oh, that's interesting, though, that happens all the time. Aha moments. Sometimes they're not always good. Aha moments, yeah, like the one I always remember that the most is when I wrote my first book, heads in the sand. I was so proud of it, and, you know, excited and sent off all these letters and marketing material to all the chambers of commerce across Canada, you know, thinking that, you know, everyone's going to want me to speak or present or buy my book. Well, ah, it doesn't happen that way. You know, I got no responses. But that didn't stop me from writing seven more books and working on nine. Now, there you go, but it was that was kind of a negative aha moment so, but I just learned, okay, that's not the way I should be doing that. Michael Hingson ** 53:34 Put you in your place, but that's fair. I kind Alex Fullick ** 53:37 of, I laugh at it now, a joke, but you know, aha, things you know, I You never know when they're going to happen. Michael Hingson ** 53:47 No, that's why they're Aha, yeah. Alex Fullick ** 53:51 And one of one, I guess another one would have been when I worked out first went out on my own. I had a manager who kept pushing me like, go, go work for yourself. You know this better than a lot of other people. Go, go do this. And I was too nervous. And then I got a phone call from a recruiting agency who was offering me a role to do where I wanted to take this company, but that I was working for full time for that weren't ready to go. They weren't ready yet. And it was kind of an aha moment of, do I stay where I am and maybe not be happy? Or have I just been given an opportunity to go forward? So when I looked at it that way, it did become an aha moment, like, Ah, here's my path forward. Yeah, so, you know. And that was way back in 2007 or or so somewhere around there, you know. So the aha moments can be good. They can be bad, and, you know, but as long as you learn from them, that's exactly Michael Hingson ** 54:57 right. The that's the neat thing about. Aha moments. You don't expect them, but they're some of the best learning opportunities that you'll ever get. Alex Fullick ** 55:06 Yeah, yeah, I agree completely, because you never know that. That's the nice thing, and I think that's also part of what I do when I'm working with so many different people of different levels is they all have different experiences. They all have different backgrounds. You they can all be CEOs, but they all come from a different direction and different backgrounds. So they're all going to be offering something new that's going to make you sit there and go, Oh, yeah. And thought of that before, Michael Hingson ** 55:38 yeah. So that's, that's so cool, yeah, Alex Fullick ** 55:42 but you have to, you know, be able to listen and pick up on those kind of things. Michael Hingson ** 55:46 But you've been very successful. What are some of the secrets of success that that that you've discovered, or that you put to use? Alex Fullick ** 55:55 For me, I'll put it bluntly, shut up and listen. Michael Hingson ** 55:59 There you are. Yeah. Well, that is so true. That's true. Yeah. Alex Fullick ** 56:03 I think I've learned more by just using my two ears rather than my one mouth, instead of telling people everything they you should be doing. And you know, this is what I think you should do. And like talking at people, it's so much better just talk with people, and then they'll, even if you're trying to, you know, really, really, really, get them to see your side, they will come onto your side easier and probably better if you let them realize it themselves. So you just listen, and you ask the odd probing question, and eventually comes around, goes, Oh, yeah, I get it. What you mean now by doing this and going, Yeah, that's where I was going. I guess I just wasn't saying it right, you know. And have being humble enough to, you know, even though I, I know I did say it right, maybe I just wasn't saying it right to that person, to that person, yeah, right way. So listening to them, and, you know, I think, is one of the big keys to success for me, it has, you know, and I've learned twice as much that way. And maybe that's why I enjoy answering people on the podcast, is because I ask a couple of questions and then just let people talk, Michael Hingson ** 57:18 which is what makes it fun. Yeah, Alex Fullick ** 57:21 yeah. It's sometimes it's fun to just sit there, not say anything, just let someone else do all the talking. Michael Hingson ** 57:29 What you know your industry is, I would assume, evolved and changed over the years. What are some of the major changes, some of the ways that the industry has evolved. You've been in it a long time, and certainly, business continuity, disaster recovery, whatever you want to call it, has, in some sense, has become a little bit more of a visible thing, although I think people, as both said earlier, ignore it a lot. But how's the industry changed over time? Alex Fullick ** 57:54 Well, when I started, it was before y 2k, yes, 96 and back then, when I first started, everything was it focused. If your mainframe went down, your computer broke. That's the direction everyone came from. And then it was you added business continuity on top of that. Okay, now, what do we do with our business operations. You know, other things we can do manually while they fix the computer or rebuild the mainframe. And then it went to, okay, well, let's bring in, you know, our help desk. You know, who people call I've got a problem with a computer, and here's our priority and severity. Okay, so we'll get, we'll respond to your query in 12 hours, because it's only one person, but if there's 10 people who have the issue, now it becomes six hours and bringing in those different aspects. So we went from it disaster recovery to business continuity to then bringing in other disciplines and linking to them, like emergency management, crisis management, business continuity, incident management, cyber, information security. Now we've got business continuity management, you know, bringing all these different teams together and now, or at least on some level, not really integrating very well with each other, but just having an awareness of each other, then we've moved to operational resilience, and again, that buzzword where all these teams do have to work together and understand what each other is delivering and the value of each of them. And so it just keeps growing in that direction where it started off with rebuild a mainframe to getting everybody working together to keep your operations going, to keep your partners happy, to keep your customers happy. You know, ensuring life safety is priority number one. When, when I started, life safety was, wasn't really thrown into the business continuity realm that much. It was always the focus on the business. So the these. The sky, the size and scope has gotten a lot bigger and more encompassing of other areas. And I wouldn't necessarily all call that business continuity, you know it, but it is. I see business continuity as a the hub and a wheel, rather than a spoke, to bring all the different teams together to help them understand, you know, hey, here's, here's how you've Incident Management, you know, help desk, service desk, here's how you help the Disaster Recovery Team. Here's how you can help the cyber team. Cyber, here's how you can actually help this team, you know, and being able to understand. And that's where the biggest change of things is going is now, more and more people are understanding how they really need to work together, rather than a silo, which you know, a lot of organizations still do, but it's those walls are starting to come down, because they can understand no One can do it alone. You have to work together with your internal departments, leadership, data analysts, who have to be able to figure out how to rebuild data, or your third parties. We need to talk with them. We have to have a relationship with them our supply chain, and understand where they're going, what they have in place, if we or they experience something. So it's definitely grown in size and scope Michael Hingson ** 1:01:27 well, and we're seeing enough challenges that I think some people are catching on to the fact that they have to learn to work together, and they have to think in a broader base than they have in the past, and that's probably a good thing. Yeah, well, if, if you had the opportunity, what would you tell the younger Alex? Alex Fullick ** 1:01:50 Run, run for the hills. Yeah, really, no, seriously, I kind of mentioned a couple of them already. Don't sweat the small things. You know, sometimes, yeah, and I think that comes down to our mindset thing as well. You know, understand your priorities and what's important. If it's not a priority or important, don't sweat it. Don't be afraid to take risks if you if you do your planning, whether it be jumping out of a plane or whatever, you know the first thing you want to do is what safety measures are in place to ensure that my jump will be successful. You know, those kind of things. Once you understand that, then you can make knowledgeable decisions. Don't be afraid to take those risks. And it's one of the big things. It's it's okay to fail, like I said about the book thing where you all those that marketing material I sent out, it's okay to fail. Learn from it. Move on. I can laugh at those kind of things now. You know, for years, I couldn't I was really like, oh my god, what I do wrong? It's like, No, I didn't do anything wrong. It just wasn't the right time. Didn't do it the right way. Okay, fine, move on. You know, you know, don't be afraid to fail. If, if you, if you fail and get up, well then is it really a failure? You learned, you got back up and you kept going. And that's the part of resilience too, right? Yeah, if you trip and fall, you get up and keep going. But if you trip and fall and stay down, well then maybe you are Michael Hingson ** 1:03:30 failing. That's the failure. I mean, the reality is that it isn't failure if you learn from it and move on. It was something that set you back, but that's okay, yeah, Alex Fullick ** 1:03:41 my my favorite band, Marillion, has a line in one of their songs rich. Failure isn't about falling down. Failure is staying down. Yeah, Michael Hingson ** 1:03:50 I would agree with that. Completely agree Alex Fullick ** 1:03:53 with it. He'll stand by it. When I heard that, I went, Yes, one of those aha moments. There Michael Hingson ** 1:03:59 you go. That again. Well, Alex, this has absolutely been a lot of fun. I'm really glad that we got a chance to do it. We'll have to do do some more of it, but I really enjoy you being here, and I want to say to everybody listening and watching, I hope you've enjoyed this and learned a lot from it. I have, and I always enjoy learning from everybody who comes on the podcast play especially, really have enjoyed and really love a lot of the thoughts that Alex has has sent to us. So I hope that you've enjoyed it. Love to hear from you. Love to hear your thoughts. Please feel free to email me at Michael M, I, C, H, A, E, L, H, I, at accessibe, A, C, C, E, S, S, i, b, e.com, and let me know your thoughts wherever you're listening, please give us a five star review. We really value your reviews and the things that you have to say, so please give us a great review. We love it. And if you can think of anybody who want to be a guest, Alex, you as well. Please pass along names. Introduce me to people. We're always looking for more people to be. On our podcast, because they'll show us that we're all more unstoppable than we think we are. But I really think that it's important to do that, so it's a lot of fun to do. So yeah, so again, Alex, I really want to thank you and really appreciate you being here. Thanks for coming on. Alex Fullick ** 1:05:17 Thank you for the invite. It's been a pleasure. You. Foreign Michael Hingson ** 1:05:24 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.
