June 1, 2025

Unmasking the Shadow: Comparing Lori Daybell and Ruby Franke’s Narcissistic Traits with John Dehlin (MSP)

Show Notes
Transcript

Join me for an eye-opening exploration of the chilling parallels between Lori Vallow Daybell and Ruby Franke, two women whose lives spiraled into true crime infamy. With expert insights from John Dehlin of "Mormon Stories," we examine where LDS teachings, narcissistic traits, and criminal actions collide.

In this episode, we dissect:

Personality Traits: The narcissistic behaviors of Lori and Ruby and how they shaped their actions.
Religious Beliefs: How their views on Mormon doctrine—family roles, discipline, and doomsday beliefs—drove radical choices.
Crimes Committed: From Ruby’s child abuse to Lori’s conspiracy to murder, analyzing the impact of their beliefs and personalities.

John Dehlin’s psychological expertise reveals:

The mechanisms behind their actions.
How religious extremism can foster such behaviors.
Mormon cultural and doctrinal elements that may amplify these tendencies.

Why Listen?

Gain a unique perspective on faith, narcissism, and tragic outcomes.
Understand the broader impact on the LDS community and true crime.
Hear from an expert deeply engaged in Mormonism’s complexities.

Don’t forget to subscribe for more insights on religion, psychology, and crime. Share your thoughts on how these cases challenge views of faith and behavior!

Note: This episode discusses sensitive topics like child abuse, murder, and psychological disorders. Listener discretion is advised.

For info on my on-demand E-Course to learn how to identify and defend against manipulation and control, email: askmeegan@gmail.com

WEBVTT

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Hello, beautiful humans.

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Welcome to the Midlife Revolution.

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I am your host, Megan Conner.

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And today we're going to

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explore a topic that I've

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been wanting to address

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ever since Sherry Franke's book came out.

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in her book the house of my

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mother sherry frankie

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details the narcissistic

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traits of her mother ruby

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and later in the book she

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compares ruby to my cousin

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lori valo daybell and so i

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wanted to explore that

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comparison between the two women their

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traits that are similar

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between the two of them,

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and also to talk about the

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angle of their LDS beliefs

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and how their beginnings in

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Mormonism and the ideas of

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Mormon culture contributed

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to the things they believe

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both about themselves and

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about the world around them.

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And who better to help me

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unpack this discussion than

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the revolutionary

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host of Mormon Stories Podcast himself,

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John DeLinn.

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Welcome, John.

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Okay, now wait,

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if this isn't getting the

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full band back together,

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is this like a duet project?

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What is the analogy here?

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This is unplugged.

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This is John Lennon and Paul

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McCartney doing a duet

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without Ringo and George.

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Oh, I feel so dishonest now.

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No, that's okay.

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I feel like we're cheating on our friends.

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No, no, no, no.

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You know,

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Phil Collins goes back and forth

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in and out of Genesis.

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I mean, it's fair.

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It's, you know.

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Yeah, the difference though, I think,

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is that, you know, the Beatles,

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they did their little groups or whatever,

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but you didn't really see

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them doing a whole lot of solo work,

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you know,

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but every single one of us does

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our own solo work.

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So, you know,

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it's almost like a band of all soloists.

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And when we come together,

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it's like synergistic.

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It's magic.

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Anyway,

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it's a treat to be on your channel.

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Thanks for having me.

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Yeah, thank you so much for coming.

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My channel members know

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you've been a great mentor to me.

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I really appreciate all your

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leadership and guidance in this space.

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And, you know,

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when I started my podcast back in April,

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I had no clue that it was

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going to come here.

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I didn't even really think

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of YouTube as it being the main thing,

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but now it definitely is the main thing.

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YouTube is the place.

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Yeah, it's been a fun journey.

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Yeah.

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Well,

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so my viewers know that we got the

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band back together to do a

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whole unpack on Sherry Franke's memoir.

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It was four and a half hours long.

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It was awesome.

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I will link it in the show

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notes down here.

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It's got like two hundred

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twenty thousand views.

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It's crazy.

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It is crazy.

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That's a huge amount.

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It's just, it's amazing.

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I think there's this

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intersection between former

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eight passengers,

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fans who really want to

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know how Sherry's doing now

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and how she came through that whole time.

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And also your fans who know that, you know,

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the Mormon connection in there.

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So I think it's a space

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where a lot of people are interested.

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Absolutely.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Well, it's fun.

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I'll jump at any chance to

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hang out with you and them.

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Yeah, well,

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we're talking about more stuff

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coming up here as well.

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So we definitely have plenty

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we could talk about and deep dive on.

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It's exciting.

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Yeah, well, this is a fun topic.

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yeah just to briefly

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sort of recap uh sherry's

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memoir the house of my

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mother i have had it

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sitting here on my desk

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ever since we started

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talking about that episode

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i've got lots of little

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tabs in here for different

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topics it's just a wealth

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of information not only

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about the case but also

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about the church and and

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just so many different uh

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avenues to explore in there

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And one of the things I've

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been talking a lot about on

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my channel lately is

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understanding people with

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narcissistic traits,

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understanding manipulation,

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coercive control,

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and helping people learn

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how to identify those traits

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and how to defend against them.

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So today we're not really

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going to talk about

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defending against them,

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but we definitely can

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identify some of those

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traits in both Ruby and Laurie.

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And also the other concept

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that I've been developing

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and talking about is the

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idea that what we're taught

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growing up in Mormonism

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really lends us to the

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possibility of becoming manipulators,

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because we're taught some

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of those tactics

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growing up in the church.

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And I want to explore that

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angle just a little bit today too,

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although we won't do a

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whole deep dive on all of the things.

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We'll have to save that for

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a Mormon stories later.

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Well, this is fun, important stuff.

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Yeah, yeah.

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I think it's important for

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people to understand.

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And I think it's interesting

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to point out too,

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a lot of people probably

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don't know this about you, John,

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that you have a PhD in psychology.

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And that was one of the

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reasons I thought your

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insight might be valuable on this.

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But you were telling me that

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you weren't really trained

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in personality disorders.

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I was really surprised to

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find that a lot of mental health experts,

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even licensed clinicians,

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don't know a lot about narcissism.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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So just, just so people know,

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like I did a six year APA accredited, uh,

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you know,

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clinical and counseling psychology,

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P PhD at Utah state university.

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It was from.

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Two thousand nine to two thousand, uh,

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and not, not, not once, for example,

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did I ever have any

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coursework around marriages?

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Oh, wow.

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Or like healthy marriages.

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Not once.

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I didn't have a supervisor really

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who was really skilled in

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marriage counseling.

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And similarly,

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the focus was on anxiety disorders,

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on mood disorders, on trauma,

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on eating disorders,

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things that are perceived as treatable,

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things for which viable

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you know empirically

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supported treatments have

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been found to be

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efficacious because

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obviously you want to train

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on the stuff where you can

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make the biggest difference

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and so we got almost no

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training on personality

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disorders in terms of

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education you know like we

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would have had an entire

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semester on the dsm the

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diagnostic and statistics

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manual and we would have

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like had to memorize all of

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the main diagnoses but

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other than that that's

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pretty much all of my

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training on um major

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personality disorders in

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the six years of grad school and

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Part of me feels like, oh,

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I should be ashamed about that.

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But the truth is,

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that's just the way the training goes.

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My focus was on obsessive

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compulsive disorder and

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specifically a subtype of

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OCD called scrupulosity,

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which is religious OCD.

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And I do think that, you know,

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we could talk about this,

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that Ruby definitely and possibly

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you know,

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Jodi exhibited some scrupulosity traits.

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But anyway,

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my other expertise is sort of

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on the nexus of religion

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and mental health.

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And if I've got anything

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that comes to mind during

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your presentation today,

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I'll definitely jump in, but I'll be, I'm,

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I'm sort of thinking of myself as, as,

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as an audience member,

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who's just going to bask in

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your knowledge.

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Cause you actually know more

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about narcissistic

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personality disorder than me by far.

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So I'm just going to enjoy

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learning from you and I'll

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maybe throw in a question here or there,

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or provide a little input when,

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when necessary or when I feel prompted.

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yeah when the spirit moves

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you john yes when the

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spirit moves me yeah i so

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because i was surrounded by

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narcissists my entire life

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um after going through you

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know several years of

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therapy and emdr therapy

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and group therapy i really

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wanted to understand all of

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these different

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personalities in my life

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and so i started

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researching personality

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disorders specifically narcissism um

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And also just the

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characteristics and traits

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that are similar between

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different personality

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disorder types in an effort

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to try to understand my

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people so that I could then

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learn how to interact with

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them in ways that were not

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going to hurt me or damage me.

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And so by understanding

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those disorders and those traits,

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I've been able to sort of

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come up with my own way of

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different tactics and

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techniques I can use to protect myself.

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Because boundaries don't

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work well with people with personalities.

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They tend to not honor boundaries.

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They tend to not really

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understand the impact of

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their actions and their

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words on the people around them.

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It can be harmful.

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So I've dug pretty deep into

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understanding all of that.

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And I think we'll find some

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common ground and some

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common language for sure.

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For sure.

00:09:30.888 --> 00:09:31.868

As we're talking about this,

00:09:31.888 --> 00:09:34.549

there's two books that come to mind.

00:09:35.009 --> 00:09:36.749

I really like this idea that

00:09:37.289 --> 00:09:41.091

you've helped propagate in our community,

00:09:41.611 --> 00:09:43.371

which is that there's

00:09:43.411 --> 00:09:45.172

probably some connection between

00:09:46.251 --> 00:09:48.053

common narcissistic traits

00:09:48.394 --> 00:09:51.198

and kind of narcissistic organizations.

00:09:51.919 --> 00:09:52.940

There is such a thing as

00:09:53.000 --> 00:09:54.402

organizations that exhibit

00:09:54.883 --> 00:09:56.064

narcissistic traits.

00:09:56.605 --> 00:09:57.566

And I think high demand

00:09:57.606 --> 00:09:59.028

religions in general

00:10:00.059 --> 00:10:03.683

can often meet criteria for narcissism.

00:10:04.524 --> 00:10:05.846

And I think the Mormon Church,

00:10:06.326 --> 00:10:10.251

depending on your interactions with it,

00:10:10.271 --> 00:10:11.532

can definitely meet criteria.

00:10:11.853 --> 00:10:12.874

So two books that come to

00:10:12.914 --> 00:10:14.095

mind that I just want to

00:10:14.135 --> 00:10:14.956

recommend to everybody.

00:10:15.577 --> 00:10:16.578

One is the book Recovering

00:10:16.658 --> 00:10:18.360

Agency by Luna Lindsay.

00:10:19.061 --> 00:10:20.523

um it's called lifting the

00:10:20.583 --> 00:10:22.264

veil of mormon mind control

00:10:22.625 --> 00:10:23.806

and it is about undue

00:10:23.866 --> 00:10:26.028

influence but i think this

00:10:26.148 --> 00:10:27.830

idea of a narcissist

00:10:28.451 --> 00:10:30.813

wielding undue influence is

00:10:30.873 --> 00:10:33.135

very compatible with the

00:10:33.236 --> 00:10:35.558

classic traits of high

00:10:35.598 --> 00:10:37.380

demand religions or cults

00:10:37.400 --> 00:10:39.422

yeah and so uh that's the

00:10:39.442 --> 00:10:40.203

first thing that comes to

00:10:40.263 --> 00:10:41.824

mind the other book

00:10:42.525 --> 00:10:43.586

that I'm looking for back on

00:10:43.606 --> 00:10:44.507

my shelf is Stephen

00:10:44.527 --> 00:10:45.727

Hassan's combating cult

00:10:45.768 --> 00:10:47.609

mind control those are two

00:10:47.649 --> 00:10:49.730

books that I would refer

00:10:49.831 --> 00:10:51.492

anyone to if they're trying

00:10:51.532 --> 00:10:54.134

to sort of explore

00:10:55.615 --> 00:10:58.357

narcissistic traits with uh

00:10:58.397 --> 00:10:59.338

the potentiality of

00:10:59.398 --> 00:11:01.419

narcissistic religions yeah

00:11:01.539 --> 00:11:02.305

yeah definitely

00:11:02.616 --> 00:11:03.556

Recovering Agency?

00:11:03.757 --> 00:11:04.537

Recovering Agency.

00:11:04.617 --> 00:11:05.698

I haven't read that one yet.

00:11:05.758 --> 00:11:06.638

It's on my list.

00:11:07.078 --> 00:11:08.939

But I have read Stephen Hassan's book.

00:11:09.439 --> 00:11:11.180

And I did also take his

00:11:11.240 --> 00:11:13.221

course and your course,

00:11:13.241 --> 00:11:14.342

the course the two of you

00:11:14.442 --> 00:11:16.063

developed together about

00:11:16.523 --> 00:11:18.424

deconstructing after Mormonism.

00:11:19.084 --> 00:11:20.125

and combating the mind

00:11:20.165 --> 00:11:21.366

control of Mormonism.

00:11:21.867 --> 00:11:23.188

And I found it so incredibly

00:11:23.228 --> 00:11:25.431

helpful because it gave me

00:11:25.471 --> 00:11:26.932

some vocabulary to talk

00:11:26.972 --> 00:11:27.733

about the things I was

00:11:27.773 --> 00:11:29.014

experiencing in the church,

00:11:29.054 --> 00:11:30.135

but I didn't really know

00:11:30.676 --> 00:11:33.379

how to describe it or how to

00:11:33.721 --> 00:11:35.282

you know, explain it to other people.

00:11:35.902 --> 00:11:37.883

And so taking that course

00:11:38.003 --> 00:11:39.443

and seeing especially the

00:11:39.543 --> 00:11:40.824

audience participation,

00:11:40.844 --> 00:11:41.764

some of the comments of

00:11:41.824 --> 00:11:42.905

individuals who were there

00:11:42.965 --> 00:11:44.505

at the course of their

00:11:44.565 --> 00:11:46.086

experiences in Mormonism

00:11:46.126 --> 00:11:47.867

and the things that were harmful to them,

00:11:48.467 --> 00:11:50.188

that was really, really helpful to me.

00:11:50.208 --> 00:11:51.268

And I definitely recommend

00:11:51.288 --> 00:11:52.489

that to anybody.

00:11:53.329 --> 00:11:54.010

And of course,

00:11:54.030 --> 00:11:55.512

Stephen Hassan's BITE model

00:11:55.552 --> 00:11:57.294

that he developed as a

00:11:57.354 --> 00:11:59.077

means of identifying

00:11:59.437 --> 00:12:00.779

organizations that could be

00:12:00.879 --> 00:12:03.623

on the spectrum of harmful or culty.

00:12:04.103 --> 00:12:05.325

And I've used that BITE

00:12:05.345 --> 00:12:07.528

model in discussions with lots of people,

00:12:07.768 --> 00:12:09.050

including the Jehovah's

00:12:09.070 --> 00:12:10.431

Witnesses when they come to my door.

00:12:11.893 --> 00:12:12.714

about, you know,

00:12:13.034 --> 00:12:14.135

is the organization that

00:12:14.155 --> 00:12:15.876

you're in healthy or unhealthy?

00:12:16.377 --> 00:12:20.140

And you can even apply it to partnerships,

00:12:20.180 --> 00:12:22.802

relationships, businesses, all of that.

00:12:22.862 --> 00:12:23.923

And I found that really,

00:12:23.963 --> 00:12:25.304

really helpful in my

00:12:25.384 --> 00:12:26.465

understanding and talking

00:12:26.505 --> 00:12:27.285

about these things.

00:12:28.819 --> 00:12:29.892

time so this is uh

00:12:30.072 --> 00:12:31.454

combating cult mind control

00:12:32.932 --> 00:12:34.454

By Dr. Stephen Hassan,

00:12:35.635 --> 00:12:37.557

America's leading cult expert.

00:12:38.377 --> 00:12:39.959

This was kind of his first book.

00:12:39.979 --> 00:12:45.324

This is the thirtieth anniversary edition,

00:12:45.344 --> 00:12:46.525

so it's been out a long time.

00:12:46.985 --> 00:12:47.325

Yeah.

00:12:47.345 --> 00:12:48.086

And he has a second one

00:12:48.106 --> 00:12:49.287

called Freedom of Mind,

00:12:49.988 --> 00:12:51.129

which is how to help loved

00:12:51.329 --> 00:12:54.071

ones leave controlling people, cults,

00:12:54.111 --> 00:12:54.792

and beliefs.

00:12:55.353 --> 00:12:56.934

Yeah, that's the one that I've read.

00:12:57.294 --> 00:12:58.475

Yeah.

00:12:58.495 --> 00:12:59.136

That's a great one.

00:13:00.510 --> 00:13:01.050

Okay, well,

00:13:01.551 --> 00:13:02.591

I have this silly little

00:13:03.011 --> 00:13:05.195

acronym that I use when I

00:13:05.255 --> 00:13:06.536

talk about these traits.

00:13:07.016 --> 00:13:09.297

And if you think of somebody, you know,

00:13:09.337 --> 00:13:12.899

who sort of puts on a veneer in public,

00:13:13.199 --> 00:13:15.220

this public persona that is

00:13:15.260 --> 00:13:16.401

just very sparkly.

00:13:17.722 --> 00:13:23.104

So here's my little acronym, ungleamy.

00:13:23.144 --> 00:13:23.324

Nice.

00:13:23.344 --> 00:13:24.825

I love it.

00:13:24.905 --> 00:13:25.586

Ungleamy.

00:13:25.926 --> 00:13:26.666

Yeah.

00:13:26.726 --> 00:13:28.067

How could I ever forget that?

00:13:30.684 --> 00:13:32.024

I think it touches on each

00:13:32.124 --> 00:13:33.125

one of the traits that are

00:13:33.165 --> 00:13:34.546

really specific to

00:13:35.066 --> 00:13:36.627

narcissistic personalities.

00:13:36.687 --> 00:13:36.848

Now,

00:13:37.008 --> 00:13:38.329

I just always have to start this

00:13:38.349 --> 00:13:40.650

conversation by saying, of course,

00:13:40.890 --> 00:13:42.451

I am not a licensed mental

00:13:42.471 --> 00:13:43.272

health professional,

00:13:43.372 --> 00:13:44.673

and I don't ever use this

00:13:44.713 --> 00:13:47.134

information to try and diagnose anybody,

00:13:47.735 --> 00:13:48.475

nor should you.

00:13:48.835 --> 00:13:50.697

This is for informational purposes.

00:13:51.437 --> 00:13:53.719

And understanding these traits

00:13:54.539 --> 00:13:56.180

helps us to relate to these people.

00:13:56.220 --> 00:13:57.241

But just because somebody

00:13:57.301 --> 00:13:58.422

has some of these traits

00:13:58.462 --> 00:13:59.383

doesn't mean they have a

00:13:59.443 --> 00:14:01.585

personality disorder and it

00:14:01.605 --> 00:14:02.405

doesn't mean they have a

00:14:02.465 --> 00:14:04.167

specific personality disorder.

00:14:04.207 --> 00:14:05.808

That's something we leave up

00:14:05.828 --> 00:14:07.309

to a professional diagnostician,

00:14:07.329 --> 00:14:08.970

but even they get it wrong sometimes.

00:14:09.531 --> 00:14:10.932

So this is really just for

00:14:11.052 --> 00:14:12.193

educational purposes.

00:14:12.253 --> 00:14:14.014

But I think the number one

00:14:14.074 --> 00:14:15.516

thing that I see throughout

00:14:15.776 --> 00:14:16.717

the different types of

00:14:16.777 --> 00:14:18.338

narcissism is an inability

00:14:18.378 --> 00:14:19.759

to accept responsibility

00:14:19.779 --> 00:14:20.620

for their actions.

00:14:21.700 --> 00:14:23.341

And that's the kind of thing

00:14:23.381 --> 00:14:24.702

that's sad about the disorder.

00:14:24.722 --> 00:14:25.963

And one of the reasons why

00:14:26.043 --> 00:14:28.564

most people who have these

00:14:28.604 --> 00:14:29.825

traits don't go and seek

00:14:29.885 --> 00:14:30.865

help is because they don't

00:14:30.885 --> 00:14:31.505

really think there's

00:14:31.545 --> 00:14:33.046

anything wrong with what

00:14:33.086 --> 00:14:33.967

they're doing or how

00:14:33.987 --> 00:14:35.367

they're acting towards others.

00:14:37.148 --> 00:14:38.529

So and then a need for

00:14:38.589 --> 00:14:39.630

constant external

00:14:39.930 --> 00:14:41.451

validation or attention.

00:14:41.931 --> 00:14:43.412

They tend to be grandiose.

00:14:43.452 --> 00:14:44.012

In other words,

00:14:44.052 --> 00:14:45.753

they talk about big ideas

00:14:45.793 --> 00:14:47.874

and big plans and how important they are.

00:14:48.563 --> 00:14:49.584

They lack empathy,

00:14:49.604 --> 00:14:51.125

which is that inability to

00:14:51.225 --> 00:14:53.426

understand how their words

00:14:53.446 --> 00:14:54.927

and actions affect other people.

00:14:55.928 --> 00:14:57.409

They tend to be entitled,

00:14:57.469 --> 00:14:58.529

meaning like the rules

00:14:58.569 --> 00:14:59.690

don't really apply to them.

00:14:59.730 --> 00:15:01.071

They don't like to wait in line.

00:15:01.411 --> 00:15:02.192

They don't think that they

00:15:02.212 --> 00:15:03.152

should have to go through

00:15:03.172 --> 00:15:04.333

the same things that normal

00:15:04.373 --> 00:15:05.174

people go through.

00:15:06.154 --> 00:15:07.035

It makes me think of my

00:15:07.095 --> 00:15:08.196

Uncle Barry with the lower

00:15:08.236 --> 00:15:09.436

ninety five concept.

00:15:11.418 --> 00:15:13.139

They tend to be very arrogant.

00:15:13.299 --> 00:15:14.320

In other words, thinking.

00:15:14.420 --> 00:15:15.941

Is that Laurie's dad?

00:15:16.021 --> 00:15:16.401

Yeah.

00:15:17.702 --> 00:15:17.942

Yeah.

00:15:19.137 --> 00:15:20.498

They tend to be very arrogant,

00:15:20.538 --> 00:15:21.619

thinking that they know

00:15:21.659 --> 00:15:22.839

better than other people.

00:15:22.979 --> 00:15:23.600

For example,

00:15:23.640 --> 00:15:26.721

Lori thinking that she has the

00:15:26.781 --> 00:15:28.022

law acumen that she needs

00:15:28.042 --> 00:15:29.663

to represent herself in court.

00:15:31.484 --> 00:15:33.765

And they tend to be deeply insecure.

00:15:33.805 --> 00:15:35.506

In fact, most of these traits

00:15:36.348 --> 00:15:37.209

that they have,

00:15:37.909 --> 00:15:39.430

all of these manipulations

00:15:39.530 --> 00:15:41.691

are developed as a mask for

00:15:41.711 --> 00:15:43.752

their deep insecurity and

00:15:43.832 --> 00:15:45.954

for their desire to never

00:15:45.994 --> 00:15:47.735

be discovered as being insecure.

00:15:47.755 --> 00:15:48.615

They're terrified that

00:15:48.655 --> 00:15:49.676

people are gonna find out

00:15:49.696 --> 00:15:51.757

that they're actually very,

00:15:51.917 --> 00:15:52.818

very insecure.

00:15:53.918 --> 00:15:55.440

And then they tend to be exploitative,

00:15:55.460 --> 00:15:56.681

which just means their

00:15:56.721 --> 00:15:58.763

relationships are pretty transactional.

00:15:59.203 --> 00:16:00.324

They will use people in

00:16:00.365 --> 00:16:01.506

situations for what they

00:16:01.566 --> 00:16:03.067

need them for and then

00:16:03.167 --> 00:16:04.749

discard the person or leave

00:16:04.789 --> 00:16:06.070

the situation without any

00:16:06.110 --> 00:16:07.952

regard for how anybody else

00:16:07.992 --> 00:16:08.672

feels about it.

00:16:09.373 --> 00:16:10.854

So we'll come back and talk

00:16:10.874 --> 00:16:11.635

about some of these.

00:16:11.775 --> 00:16:12.776

So where's the M?

00:16:12.836 --> 00:16:13.437

I'm just kidding.

00:16:15.267 --> 00:16:17.108

Oh man, I did leave out the M, didn't I?

00:16:17.328 --> 00:16:18.148

Is there an M?

00:16:18.208 --> 00:16:19.169

Manipulative.

00:16:19.589 --> 00:16:22.170

Oh, that's an important one.

00:16:22.270 --> 00:16:23.530

It is important.

00:16:23.810 --> 00:16:24.311

All right,

00:16:24.331 --> 00:16:25.331

I was just making sure I wasn't

00:16:25.351 --> 00:16:25.971

going crazy.

00:16:26.231 --> 00:16:27.212

I have to redo my slide.

00:16:27.272 --> 00:16:27.972

Yes, thank you.

00:16:28.012 --> 00:16:28.212

I mean,

00:16:28.252 --> 00:16:29.813

this is one of those ADHD things

00:16:29.833 --> 00:16:30.593

that I'm like, am I done?

00:16:30.633 --> 00:16:31.173

Yeah, I'm done.

00:16:31.434 --> 00:16:33.975

No, let's do, yeah, cover manipulative.

00:16:33.995 --> 00:16:34.975

That's important.

00:16:35.135 --> 00:16:37.036

Yeah, I mean,

00:16:37.256 --> 00:16:39.857

all of these traits lead to

00:16:39.917 --> 00:16:41.257

someone who's going to manipulate.

00:16:41.297 --> 00:16:43.098

They want to manipulate the situation.

00:16:43.138 --> 00:16:44.579

They want to manipulate the person.

00:16:45.615 --> 00:16:47.137

And that's really the

00:16:47.177 --> 00:16:48.638

harmful thing behind it is

00:16:48.678 --> 00:16:49.559

the manipulation.

00:16:50.360 --> 00:16:51.761

And all of these traits are

00:16:52.342 --> 00:16:53.363

somewhat controlling.

00:16:53.383 --> 00:16:56.405

Yeah, that's really good.

00:16:56.465 --> 00:16:57.486

I love that acronym.

00:16:57.526 --> 00:16:58.167

Nice work.

00:16:58.407 --> 00:16:58.908

Thanks.

00:16:59.528 --> 00:17:00.770

I'll fix my slide so it

00:17:00.790 --> 00:17:02.591

doesn't look silly.

00:17:02.967 --> 00:17:04.528

So if we were going to,

00:17:05.048 --> 00:17:07.088

just as a case study in

00:17:07.989 --> 00:17:09.669

organizational narcissism,

00:17:09.729 --> 00:17:10.449

I'm going to just run

00:17:10.469 --> 00:17:12.210

through this and look at it

00:17:12.290 --> 00:17:15.011

from maybe a critical eye

00:17:15.031 --> 00:17:16.171

towards the Mormon church,

00:17:16.311 --> 00:17:17.392

just to sanity check.

00:17:17.440 --> 00:17:18.755

look at that magic

00:17:20.977 --> 00:17:24.399

all right so talking about these traits

00:17:25.752 --> 00:17:29.034

in relation to the Mormon church?

00:17:29.134 --> 00:17:29.534

Yeah,

00:17:29.614 --> 00:17:32.255

so I just thought I'd sanity check

00:17:32.895 --> 00:17:34.276

and see which of these

00:17:34.316 --> 00:17:35.696

criteria can fairly be

00:17:35.716 --> 00:17:37.677

applied to one's experience

00:17:37.697 --> 00:17:38.237

with the church.

00:17:38.277 --> 00:17:38.717

And of course,

00:17:38.757 --> 00:17:41.398

people's experiences will

00:17:41.439 --> 00:17:43.119

vary depending on who your

00:17:43.139 --> 00:17:45.000

leadership is and where you live.

00:17:45.080 --> 00:17:47.821

And so I don't even believe

00:17:47.861 --> 00:17:49.282

there's one Mormon experience,

00:17:49.322 --> 00:17:52.423

but I'll just apply my experience,

00:17:52.443 --> 00:17:54.624

which I view as relatively positive.

00:17:55.959 --> 00:17:56.259

Um,

00:17:56.279 --> 00:17:57.900

with the exception of my communication

00:17:57.920 --> 00:17:58.800

and my mission, I guess.

00:17:59.381 --> 00:18:00.741

So Mormon church,

00:18:00.981 --> 00:18:02.962

you unable to accept responsibility.

00:18:03.342 --> 00:18:03.563

I mean,

00:18:03.603 --> 00:18:05.443

there is the down a choke statement

00:18:06.164 --> 00:18:08.805

that the church does not apologize.

00:18:09.705 --> 00:18:11.346

Um, and, and in fact,

00:18:11.426 --> 00:18:13.347

whether it's the priesthood ban or,

00:18:14.167 --> 00:18:14.568

you know,

00:18:14.708 --> 00:18:16.768

LGBT suicides or the mountain

00:18:16.789 --> 00:18:18.749

mills massacre, you know,

00:18:18.809 --> 00:18:20.810

the church has a hard time apologizing.

00:18:20.850 --> 00:18:23.992

So definitely the church is a grade a.

00:18:25.070 --> 00:18:28.592

Uh, you, as it comes to ungleamy.

00:18:29.453 --> 00:18:29.693

Okay.

00:18:29.713 --> 00:18:30.694

The second one is need for

00:18:30.754 --> 00:18:31.795

constant external

00:18:31.815 --> 00:18:33.056

validation and attention.

00:18:33.856 --> 00:18:34.557

I mean, yeah,

00:18:34.577 --> 00:18:37.319

I think what comes to mind is like the,

00:18:37.339 --> 00:18:38.339

the helping hands,

00:18:38.960 --> 00:18:40.521

yellow vests that they wear

00:18:40.541 --> 00:18:42.722

whenever they do like a

00:18:42.802 --> 00:18:44.183

disaster cleanup or whatever.

00:18:44.303 --> 00:18:45.924

I do think the church loves

00:18:47.125 --> 00:18:49.007

external validation and attention.

00:18:49.107 --> 00:18:50.428

I think, I think we all do.

00:18:51.088 --> 00:18:51.909

I think it's, uh,

00:18:51.929 --> 00:18:53.430

I think every human's born, uh,

00:18:54.413 --> 00:18:55.555

starving for attention.

00:18:55.595 --> 00:18:56.657

That's probably the way we

00:18:57.459 --> 00:18:59.202

help prevent our own neglect.

00:18:59.723 --> 00:19:01.045

But I'd say the church is

00:19:01.085 --> 00:19:02.027

definitely an A when it

00:19:02.067 --> 00:19:03.750

comes to validation and attention.

00:19:04.287 --> 00:19:05.879

of those.

00:19:06.179 --> 00:19:06.459

Yeah,

00:19:06.519 --> 00:19:09.301

so to just go back to the validation

00:19:09.321 --> 00:19:09.861

and attention,

00:19:09.962 --> 00:19:11.523

I agree with you that we

00:19:11.543 --> 00:19:13.024

are kind of hardwired to

00:19:13.564 --> 00:19:14.525

need validation and

00:19:14.565 --> 00:19:16.466

attention for the survival, right?

00:19:17.166 --> 00:19:18.928

And so from a baby,

00:19:19.048 --> 00:19:19.828

we know how to call

00:19:19.848 --> 00:19:21.029

attention to our needs,

00:19:21.609 --> 00:19:23.230

and we constantly do that.

00:19:23.951 --> 00:19:25.392

I feel like the problem is

00:19:25.972 --> 00:19:27.734

within Mormonism that—

00:19:28.634 --> 00:19:30.036

We need at some point to

00:19:30.076 --> 00:19:31.458

learn how to self validate.

00:19:31.838 --> 00:19:33.180

We need to learn how to

00:19:34.111 --> 00:19:34.371

you know,

00:19:34.731 --> 00:19:36.832

meet our own needs and to have

00:19:36.872 --> 00:19:38.852

our own sense of self and

00:19:38.912 --> 00:19:41.873

our own belief in our own, you know,

00:19:41.933 --> 00:19:44.954

abilities to solve problems, et cetera.

00:19:45.054 --> 00:19:46.274

And I think one of the

00:19:46.534 --> 00:19:47.774

issues with Mormonism

00:19:47.814 --> 00:19:49.195

growing up Mormon is that

00:19:49.315 --> 00:19:50.795

we learn that we have to go

00:19:50.815 --> 00:19:52.275

to our Bishop in order to

00:19:52.315 --> 00:19:53.396

be declared worthy.

00:19:54.036 --> 00:19:54.416

And,

00:19:54.496 --> 00:19:56.016

and so that's a sort of external

00:19:56.036 --> 00:19:56.716

validation.

00:19:56.876 --> 00:19:58.377

And the other is like when

00:19:58.437 --> 00:20:00.517

we are keeping commandments

00:20:00.777 --> 00:20:02.898

in order to be acceptable to God,

00:20:03.918 --> 00:20:04.939

that's another sense of

00:20:05.339 --> 00:20:07.140

external validation and i

00:20:07.160 --> 00:20:08.481

don't know about you but it

00:20:08.541 --> 00:20:10.543

left me you know feeling

00:20:10.603 --> 00:20:12.004

like i wasn't worthy unless

00:20:12.024 --> 00:20:14.726

the bishop said i was yeah

00:20:14.746 --> 00:20:17.167

for sure the mormon bishop

00:20:17.227 --> 00:20:19.589

is the broker to someone's

00:20:19.649 --> 00:20:20.790

relationship with god and

00:20:20.830 --> 00:20:22.831

jesus and and to their own

00:20:22.871 --> 00:20:23.652

self-worth a hundred

00:20:23.672 --> 00:20:24.993

percent to the point of

00:20:25.553 --> 00:20:26.313

they decide if you're

00:20:26.333 --> 00:20:28.195

worthy to get baptized they

00:20:28.235 --> 00:20:29.215

decide if you're worthy to

00:20:29.255 --> 00:20:31.157

advance in young men's or young women's

00:20:31.955 --> 00:20:33.096

They decide if you're worthy

00:20:33.116 --> 00:20:34.997

to go to the temple.

00:20:35.098 --> 00:20:35.998

Yeah.

00:20:36.058 --> 00:20:38.120

They can pronounce you clean, really.

00:20:38.180 --> 00:20:38.720

That's right.

00:20:39.121 --> 00:20:39.641

That's right.

00:20:40.041 --> 00:20:42.043

And they do that in the temple as well.

00:20:42.083 --> 00:20:43.404

They pronounce you clean, right?

00:20:43.424 --> 00:20:45.065

But you have to keep that.

00:20:45.085 --> 00:20:46.266

You have to keep your

00:20:46.306 --> 00:20:47.948

covenants in order for it to be valid.

00:20:48.448 --> 00:20:49.389

The other point is,

00:20:49.589 --> 00:20:51.531

I remember when they added

00:20:51.571 --> 00:20:53.012

that final question onto

00:20:53.032 --> 00:20:53.972

the temple recommend

00:20:54.053 --> 00:20:55.694

interview where they asked

00:20:55.754 --> 00:20:56.975

you if you believed you

00:20:56.995 --> 00:20:58.676

were worthy to go to the temple.

00:20:58.736 --> 00:20:59.537

Because before...

00:21:00.208 --> 00:21:01.649

We didn't really have a say in it,

00:21:01.929 --> 00:21:02.270

you know?

00:21:03.730 --> 00:21:04.571

And I'm not sure that was

00:21:04.611 --> 00:21:07.853

saying you're the final decision maker.

00:21:07.933 --> 00:21:08.834

I think it was adding an

00:21:08.914 --> 00:21:12.456

extra opportunity to exclude you.

00:21:12.536 --> 00:21:15.638

Well, yes, I definitely saw it that way.

00:21:16.118 --> 00:21:16.839

It was like, okay,

00:21:16.859 --> 00:21:17.639

we've gone through all

00:21:17.659 --> 00:21:18.580

these questions in the

00:21:18.620 --> 00:21:20.501

interview and assuming that

00:21:20.521 --> 00:21:22.062

you've answered everything truthfully,

00:21:22.082 --> 00:21:24.344

which we know not everyone does, right?

00:21:24.364 --> 00:21:24.464

Yeah.

00:21:25.264 --> 00:21:26.385

So now we're going to give

00:21:26.405 --> 00:21:27.825

you an opportunity to

00:21:27.965 --> 00:21:30.126

confess to anything that we

00:21:30.166 --> 00:21:31.087

might not have covered in

00:21:31.107 --> 00:21:32.067

these other questions.

00:21:32.147 --> 00:21:33.728

You know, do you consider yourself worthy?

00:21:33.788 --> 00:21:35.609

Well, I do, except, you know,

00:21:35.629 --> 00:21:37.870

there is this one other thing, you know,

00:21:38.510 --> 00:21:39.911

so I didn't find that empowering.

00:21:39.931 --> 00:21:41.972

And we all know that if the

00:21:42.012 --> 00:21:43.272

stake president or bishop

00:21:43.292 --> 00:21:44.133

don't think you're worthy,

00:21:44.173 --> 00:21:45.974

but you think you're worthy, they win.

00:21:45.994 --> 00:21:46.094

Yeah.

00:21:47.072 --> 00:21:47.552

Yeah,

00:21:47.572 --> 00:21:49.393

that's the other odd thing is that

00:21:49.573 --> 00:21:51.573

I've been in recommend

00:21:51.733 --> 00:21:53.313

interviews more than once

00:21:53.613 --> 00:21:55.314

where it was very clear

00:21:56.054 --> 00:21:57.274

that the person

00:21:57.374 --> 00:21:58.515

interviewing me believed

00:21:58.555 --> 00:22:00.135

that I needed to confess something.

00:22:01.135 --> 00:22:02.115

And so they kept kind of

00:22:02.175 --> 00:22:05.336

pushing on it and eventually relented.

00:22:05.376 --> 00:22:05.616

Right.

00:22:05.656 --> 00:22:07.236

But if if they really don't

00:22:07.296 --> 00:22:08.657

think that I'm worthy, they can say,

00:22:08.677 --> 00:22:09.457

you know what, sister,

00:22:09.837 --> 00:22:10.657

I think you have some

00:22:10.677 --> 00:22:11.777

things you need to repent

00:22:11.857 --> 00:22:12.458

of and I'm going to

00:22:12.818 --> 00:22:14.178

withhold your recommend for now.

00:22:14.918 --> 00:22:15.158

You know,

00:22:15.198 --> 00:22:16.539

never mind that your daughter's

00:22:16.579 --> 00:22:17.740

wedding is next week or

00:22:17.760 --> 00:22:18.740

that your son's going on a

00:22:18.780 --> 00:22:20.101

mission or any of that stuff.

00:22:20.121 --> 00:22:22.782

So, all right.

00:22:22.842 --> 00:22:24.123

Well, I don't want to drag it down.

00:22:24.243 --> 00:22:24.843

Grandiose.

00:22:24.863 --> 00:22:25.064

I mean,

00:22:25.104 --> 00:22:28.625

the church is nothing if not grandiose.

00:22:28.665 --> 00:22:29.006

I mean,

00:22:29.626 --> 00:22:30.766

it's the one true church on the

00:22:30.786 --> 00:22:31.967

face of the earth led

00:22:32.007 --> 00:22:33.528

directly by God and Jesus.

00:22:34.428 --> 00:22:35.349

And, you know,

00:22:35.489 --> 00:22:36.890

its members become gods and

00:22:36.930 --> 00:22:38.150

goddesses someday.

00:22:38.230 --> 00:22:38.470

Like,

00:22:39.031 --> 00:22:40.371

is there literally anything more

00:22:40.412 --> 00:22:41.032

grandiose?

00:22:41.837 --> 00:22:42.058

Well,

00:22:42.278 --> 00:22:44.081

I think the only thing more grandiose

00:22:44.101 --> 00:22:45.723

than that is claiming to be

00:22:45.783 --> 00:22:47.346

the one true religion on

00:22:47.386 --> 00:22:48.948

the earth and all the other

00:22:48.988 --> 00:22:50.029

religions are wrong.

00:22:50.250 --> 00:22:52.633

And, you know, so it does.

00:22:52.854 --> 00:22:54.096

I've often thought about

00:22:54.136 --> 00:22:55.598

this as someone who grew up

00:22:55.698 --> 00:22:56.599

outside of Utah.

00:22:57.482 --> 00:22:58.622

I remember when I would go

00:22:58.642 --> 00:23:00.183

to Utah and visit my cousins,

00:23:01.103 --> 00:23:02.604

I remember having this

00:23:02.644 --> 00:23:04.384

conversation with my sister at one point,

00:23:04.404 --> 00:23:04.964

like, man,

00:23:05.544 --> 00:23:07.005

sometimes Utah Mormons seem

00:23:07.065 --> 00:23:09.526

really arrogant because

00:23:09.546 --> 00:23:10.946

they seem like they're very

00:23:11.006 --> 00:23:12.346

superior to everyone.

00:23:12.466 --> 00:23:14.407

I think that grandiosity and

00:23:14.527 --> 00:23:15.327

arrogance that we're going

00:23:15.347 --> 00:23:16.167

to get to in a second,

00:23:16.688 --> 00:23:18.428

they go together because it's like, well,

00:23:18.448 --> 00:23:20.149

I have the truth and you don't.

00:23:20.629 --> 00:23:24.590

And so I don't consider you as an equal.

00:23:24.670 --> 00:23:24.830

Yeah.

00:23:25.474 --> 00:23:26.836

Yeah, for sure.

00:23:27.056 --> 00:23:30.360

As far as empathy goes, um, I mean,

00:23:30.420 --> 00:23:32.884

I think I wouldn't want to say Mormon,

00:23:32.944 --> 00:23:34.606

the Mormon church doesn't have empathy,

00:23:34.666 --> 00:23:36.568

but when it comes to like

00:23:37.490 --> 00:23:40.814

women being second-class citizens, racism,

00:23:40.854 --> 00:23:43.538

people of color, the LGBTQ community.

00:23:45.860 --> 00:23:47.442

Each time they were forced

00:23:48.263 --> 00:23:49.824

into developing empathy for

00:23:49.864 --> 00:23:53.608

those groups by critics and by the media.

00:23:54.690 --> 00:23:56.912

And it's hard to trust that

00:23:56.932 --> 00:23:57.913

they really care.

00:23:58.414 --> 00:23:59.214

And I think that's

00:24:00.196 --> 00:24:02.298

exemplified by how much

00:24:02.378 --> 00:24:03.399

progress the church was

00:24:03.439 --> 00:24:06.182

making on LGBTQ issues only after the

00:24:06.819 --> 00:24:07.879

They were bludgeoned over

00:24:07.919 --> 00:24:09.000

the head with the suicide

00:24:09.040 --> 00:24:10.000

epidemic in the.

00:24:10.680 --> 00:24:12.941

Two thousand tens only to

00:24:12.981 --> 00:24:13.962

sort of backtrack and

00:24:13.982 --> 00:24:15.342

become even more severe

00:24:15.822 --> 00:24:17.063

against the trans community.

00:24:17.563 --> 00:24:20.084

Once the public perceptions

00:24:20.124 --> 00:24:22.305

kind of moved back the other way, I,

00:24:23.385 --> 00:24:25.526

I think the church does lack empathy,

00:24:25.606 --> 00:24:27.307

especially for marginalized groups.

00:24:27.911 --> 00:24:29.211

Definitely, definitely.

00:24:29.291 --> 00:24:31.552

And they've been shamed into empathy,

00:24:31.692 --> 00:24:32.852

you know, forced empathy,

00:24:32.932 --> 00:24:34.393

as you're saying, you know,

00:24:34.413 --> 00:24:37.013

like Sam Young, you know, advocating for,

00:24:37.753 --> 00:24:39.954

for parents to be present

00:24:40.054 --> 00:24:41.774

in the interviews with their children,

00:24:42.274 --> 00:24:43.735

then they excommunicated him,

00:24:43.895 --> 00:24:44.875

but then they implemented

00:24:44.895 --> 00:24:45.995

that policy anyway.

00:24:46.055 --> 00:24:46.636

So it was like,

00:24:47.076 --> 00:24:48.496

they had to be forced to do

00:24:48.536 --> 00:24:49.356

the right thing.

00:24:50.456 --> 00:24:51.737

They got rid of the person

00:24:51.777 --> 00:24:53.357

who forced them to do the right thing,

00:24:54.097 --> 00:24:55.278

then they did the right thing.

00:24:55.338 --> 00:24:56.678

So is that really empathy?

00:24:57.439 --> 00:24:59.120

No, I don't think so.

00:24:59.180 --> 00:25:00.842

It's kind of image management, I think.

00:25:00.962 --> 00:25:02.203

Exactly, exactly.

00:25:02.603 --> 00:25:03.343

Image control.

00:25:03.644 --> 00:25:05.065

Which I think probably fits

00:25:05.125 --> 00:25:07.366

into your acronym, image control.

00:25:07.406 --> 00:25:08.527

Yeah.

00:25:08.567 --> 00:25:09.068

Somewhere.

00:25:09.648 --> 00:25:09.908

Yeah,

00:25:09.988 --> 00:25:12.670

like manipulation includes

00:25:12.730 --> 00:25:14.232

manipulating your image or

00:25:14.252 --> 00:25:15.552

people's perception of you.

00:25:16.537 --> 00:25:17.958

In order to hide, you know,

00:25:17.998 --> 00:25:18.859

your shadow traits,

00:25:18.899 --> 00:25:20.581

the things about you that you don't like.

00:25:20.781 --> 00:25:21.341

Yeah.

00:25:21.361 --> 00:25:22.903

So I,

00:25:22.963 --> 00:25:24.944

my grandfather said at least one good

00:25:24.984 --> 00:25:25.305

thing.

00:25:25.365 --> 00:25:27.266

He said a man convinced

00:25:27.306 --> 00:25:28.748

against his will is of the

00:25:28.808 --> 00:25:29.949

same opinion still.

00:25:30.849 --> 00:25:32.170

So I don't think that the

00:25:32.210 --> 00:25:34.472

church being forced to make

00:25:34.933 --> 00:25:36.074

social changes,

00:25:36.594 --> 00:25:37.715

changes their actual

00:25:37.755 --> 00:25:38.896

opinion or their actual

00:25:38.916 --> 00:25:40.998

ability to understand the

00:25:41.058 --> 00:25:42.699

experiences of their members.

00:25:43.120 --> 00:25:43.240

Yeah.

00:25:45.249 --> 00:25:46.070

that's kind of been my

00:25:46.170 --> 00:25:48.091

argument you know for for

00:25:48.131 --> 00:25:50.353

quite a while that they the

00:25:50.393 --> 00:25:52.354

fifteen sitting in their

00:25:52.495 --> 00:25:54.276

ivory tower literal ivory

00:25:54.316 --> 00:25:56.037

tower in salt lake i really

00:25:56.057 --> 00:25:56.978

don't think they have any

00:25:57.018 --> 00:25:58.319

clue what their individual

00:25:58.359 --> 00:25:59.940

members go through on a

00:25:59.980 --> 00:26:03.863

day-to-day basis yeah so

00:26:03.883 --> 00:26:04.504

it's kind of hard to

00:26:04.564 --> 00:26:05.684

empathize with them when

00:26:06.025 --> 00:26:07.106

you don't you don't know

00:26:07.146 --> 00:26:11.089

that about them yeah so um

00:26:11.109 --> 00:26:12.229

i'll just quickly say

00:26:13.562 --> 00:26:16.203

You know, entitled, yes.

00:26:16.383 --> 00:26:16.923

Arrogant.

00:26:17.323 --> 00:26:17.783

Yes.

00:26:17.883 --> 00:26:20.744

Manipulative kind of insecure.

00:26:21.204 --> 00:26:21.664

I don't know.

00:26:22.445 --> 00:26:23.785

I guess you could probably

00:26:23.845 --> 00:26:25.065

dig for insecurity.

00:26:26.406 --> 00:26:26.706

Um,

00:26:26.786 --> 00:26:28.967

I don't think the church necessarily

00:26:29.007 --> 00:26:30.207

comes off in its public

00:26:30.267 --> 00:26:31.287

image as insecure.

00:26:32.748 --> 00:26:32.808

Um,

00:26:32.828 --> 00:26:33.948

but you could definitely argue it's

00:26:33.988 --> 00:26:34.748

exploitative, uh,

00:26:35.329 --> 00:26:37.729

of its members of its missionaries,

00:26:37.789 --> 00:26:39.790

of its women, you know?

00:26:40.832 --> 00:26:42.273

Definitely exploitative.

00:26:42.293 --> 00:26:43.473

I didn't mean to just speed through it,

00:26:43.533 --> 00:26:44.373

but I don't want to get us

00:26:44.433 --> 00:26:47.434

off track for the main topics for today.

00:26:47.714 --> 00:26:47.814

Yeah,

00:26:47.854 --> 00:26:50.375

but firing all of your janitors and

00:26:50.415 --> 00:26:51.616

then forcing members to

00:26:51.656 --> 00:26:53.356

clean the bathrooms because it's cheaper,

00:26:53.676 --> 00:26:55.057

that's pretty exploitative.

00:26:55.977 --> 00:26:57.378

It's like the missionaries

00:26:57.438 --> 00:27:00.239

pay to be the church's salesman.

00:27:00.339 --> 00:27:01.419

How crazy is that?

00:27:01.439 --> 00:27:02.760

Exactly.

00:27:02.780 --> 00:27:03.080

Yeah,

00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:05.420

their marketing team is the

00:27:05.480 --> 00:27:06.481

missionary force,

00:27:06.581 --> 00:27:07.581

and the missionaries pay

00:27:07.621 --> 00:27:08.722

for the privilege to be on

00:27:08.742 --> 00:27:09.742

the marketing team.

00:27:11.742 --> 00:27:13.008

That's pretty exploitative

00:27:13.229 --> 00:27:14.836

bishops aren't paid, you know?

00:27:15.961 --> 00:27:16.162

Yeah.

00:27:16.739 --> 00:27:17.379

Not only that,

00:27:17.399 --> 00:27:18.380

but they boast about the

00:27:18.400 --> 00:27:19.761

fact that they're unpaid.

00:27:19.901 --> 00:27:20.962

But, you know,

00:27:21.222 --> 00:27:22.683

the top hundred and thirty

00:27:22.723 --> 00:27:25.125

seven leaders of the church, all men,

00:27:25.145 --> 00:27:27.686

by the way, they're all paid a salary.

00:27:28.127 --> 00:27:29.208

You know, they're stipend.

00:27:29.308 --> 00:27:30.809

They've got a housing stipend,

00:27:30.829 --> 00:27:31.729

a car stipend.

00:27:32.069 --> 00:27:33.210

They've got a nice little

00:27:33.691 --> 00:27:34.911

pharmacy situation that

00:27:34.951 --> 00:27:35.732

they can get whatever

00:27:35.812 --> 00:27:37.593

sundries they need for free.

00:27:38.174 --> 00:27:39.274

Probably they get lots of

00:27:39.314 --> 00:27:41.056

free meals in the Salt Lake area.

00:27:42.376 --> 00:27:43.197

And they get that million

00:27:43.217 --> 00:27:44.658

dollar bonus when they sign on.

00:27:45.218 --> 00:27:46.960

And what I think is interesting about that,

00:27:47.020 --> 00:27:47.440

too,

00:27:47.620 --> 00:27:49.822

is that the nine women who are in

00:27:49.882 --> 00:27:51.403

charge of the primary,

00:27:51.463 --> 00:27:52.904

the young women's in the Relief Society,

00:27:53.584 --> 00:27:54.325

none of them are paid.

00:27:54.345 --> 00:27:55.305

Yeah.

00:27:55.405 --> 00:27:57.367

Oh, wow.

00:27:57.387 --> 00:27:57.467

Yeah.

00:27:57.487 --> 00:27:58.327

So it's only the men.

00:28:00.189 --> 00:28:00.489

But yeah,

00:28:00.509 --> 00:28:02.390

to just to just go back really

00:28:02.430 --> 00:28:04.652

quickly to the insecurity piece,

00:28:05.132 --> 00:28:06.373

because I would argue that

00:28:06.393 --> 00:28:08.114

the Mormon church is deeply

00:28:08.714 --> 00:28:09.475

insecure about.

00:28:10.104 --> 00:28:12.585

And they are terrified that

00:28:12.645 --> 00:28:13.505

their members are going to

00:28:13.545 --> 00:28:15.726

find out the truth about

00:28:15.786 --> 00:28:16.826

their truth claims,

00:28:16.906 --> 00:28:18.346

about the history of the church,

00:28:18.366 --> 00:28:19.587

the true history of the church.

00:28:20.047 --> 00:28:21.727

That's the reason why they

00:28:21.807 --> 00:28:23.348

hide these things and lie

00:28:23.368 --> 00:28:25.188

about it is because of their insecurity.

00:28:25.208 --> 00:28:26.589

Oh, that makes sense.

00:28:26.609 --> 00:28:26.709

Yeah.

00:28:27.729 --> 00:28:29.009

Yeah.

00:28:29.030 --> 00:28:29.750

And there's nothing more

00:28:29.790 --> 00:28:30.690

arrogant than believing

00:28:30.730 --> 00:28:31.530

you're God's one true

00:28:31.550 --> 00:28:32.491

church on the earth and

00:28:32.511 --> 00:28:34.591

that only you and your

00:28:34.631 --> 00:28:36.072

leaders speak to God and

00:28:36.172 --> 00:28:37.492

only your ordinances count.

00:28:38.059 --> 00:28:39.219

Only your baptism counts,

00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:40.460

only your marriages count.

00:28:41.300 --> 00:28:42.180

Like there's,

00:28:42.220 --> 00:28:43.540

it's hard to imagine a more

00:28:44.681 --> 00:28:45.721

offensive and arrogant

00:28:45.761 --> 00:28:48.702

position than pure exclusivity.

00:28:50.082 --> 00:28:50.322

Yeah.

00:28:51.022 --> 00:28:53.183

Not only that, but I think these,

00:28:53.883 --> 00:28:55.463

the harmful traits manifest

00:28:55.503 --> 00:28:57.284

in Mormonism when the Mormon church

00:28:57.917 --> 00:28:59.638

does things that are maybe

00:28:59.698 --> 00:29:01.699

unethical or maybe you know

00:29:01.759 --> 00:29:03.319

borderline illegal like the

00:29:03.339 --> 00:29:05.700

the ensign pink fund

00:29:06.401 --> 00:29:07.701

deception fraud which was

00:29:07.861 --> 00:29:09.722

was illegal i think they do

00:29:09.782 --> 00:29:11.463

those things because of

00:29:11.523 --> 00:29:12.603

their entitlement they

00:29:12.643 --> 00:29:13.343

believe they're above the

00:29:13.363 --> 00:29:14.684

law but they also believe

00:29:15.124 --> 00:29:16.425

that they're doing the best

00:29:16.725 --> 00:29:18.586

thing for mankind at all

00:29:18.626 --> 00:29:20.006

times because when jesus

00:29:20.026 --> 00:29:21.427

comes everyone's going to find out

00:29:21.987 --> 00:29:23.208

that the mormons were right

00:29:23.728 --> 00:29:24.909

and it's okay if we for

00:29:24.949 --> 00:29:27.030

example do baptisms for

00:29:27.270 --> 00:29:29.591

holocaust victims because

00:29:29.671 --> 00:29:31.292

we justify that by saying

00:29:31.792 --> 00:29:32.853

you know in the end

00:29:33.593 --> 00:29:35.554

mormonism is gonna win so

00:29:35.634 --> 00:29:36.855

it's okay if we do things

00:29:36.935 --> 00:29:39.516

now that are unethical just

00:29:39.556 --> 00:29:40.437

because it's for the

00:29:40.457 --> 00:29:43.158

greater good in the long run yeah

00:29:43.904 --> 00:29:44.404

Yeah.

00:29:44.464 --> 00:29:44.604

Well,

00:29:44.644 --> 00:29:46.085

let's do a Mormon Stories episode

00:29:47.146 --> 00:29:49.127

where we flesh this out.

00:29:50.428 --> 00:29:51.529

Does the Mormon Church meet

00:29:51.569 --> 00:29:52.970

criteria for narcissism?

00:29:53.110 --> 00:29:53.690

Let's do that.

00:29:54.010 --> 00:29:54.711

Absolutely.

00:29:54.731 --> 00:29:56.012

I will.

00:29:56.192 --> 00:29:56.552

Sorry,

00:29:56.572 --> 00:29:58.393

I hope I didn't derail today's episode.

00:29:58.773 --> 00:29:59.414

No, not at all.

00:29:59.454 --> 00:30:00.454

I was just thinking, you know,

00:30:00.514 --> 00:30:01.615

I could clip that section

00:30:01.715 --> 00:30:03.176

out and it could be its own thing,

00:30:03.196 --> 00:30:03.676

you know.

00:30:06.043 --> 00:30:07.304

So just real quick,

00:30:07.484 --> 00:30:10.645

I want to play a little snippet, um,

00:30:10.685 --> 00:30:14.427

from a newsreel about Ruby and her arrest,

00:30:14.447 --> 00:30:15.287

just in case there are

00:30:15.327 --> 00:30:16.588

people from my audience who

00:30:16.608 --> 00:30:18.428

don't know Ruby's case quite as well.

00:30:18.775 --> 00:30:20.156

So here's Sherry Frankie,

00:30:20.476 --> 00:30:21.397

whose book was published.

00:30:21.437 --> 00:30:22.738

And this is a clip from Good

00:30:22.778 --> 00:30:23.759

Morning America that we'll

00:30:23.779 --> 00:30:25.200

just play a portion of so

00:30:25.220 --> 00:30:27.102

that people can get a real

00:30:27.142 --> 00:30:29.684

quick review of Ruby and who she is.

00:30:31.958 --> 00:30:33.639

She was the Utah mommy in

00:30:33.699 --> 00:30:36.439

her no nonsense parenting

00:30:36.599 --> 00:30:39.420

one more time and then yo

00:30:39.440 --> 00:30:41.621

the privilege to eat din

00:30:41.641 --> 00:30:43.021

sharing her life at home

00:30:43.422 --> 00:30:45.482

her more than two million

00:30:45.782 --> 00:30:49.003

Today we are starting off

00:30:51.404 --> 00:30:53.025

But Ruby's social media

00:30:53.145 --> 00:30:54.987

empire quickly unraveled

00:30:55.267 --> 00:30:56.107

when her youngest son

00:30:56.187 --> 00:30:58.449

escaped in August of twenty twenty three.

00:30:58.729 --> 00:31:00.230

This chilling nine one one

00:31:00.250 --> 00:31:02.252

call leading to her arrest.

00:31:02.772 --> 00:31:04.153

I just had a twelve year old

00:31:04.193 --> 00:31:05.574

boy show up here at my

00:31:05.634 --> 00:31:08.076

front door asking for help.

00:31:08.456 --> 00:31:10.998

And he's said he just came

00:31:11.018 --> 00:31:12.199

from a neighbor's house.

00:31:13.110 --> 00:31:13.290

Yeah.

00:31:13.350 --> 00:31:15.212

So I didn't want to, um,

00:31:15.312 --> 00:31:17.994

rehash the entire thing, but essentially,

00:31:18.954 --> 00:31:21.076

um, Ruby and her partner, Jody Hildebrand,

00:31:21.096 --> 00:31:21.816

who are running the

00:31:21.856 --> 00:31:25.239

connections classroom were both arrested.

00:31:25.699 --> 00:31:27.100

They both pled guilty.

00:31:27.943 --> 00:31:28.123

Sorry,

00:31:28.143 --> 00:31:30.845

they're now serving prison time for

00:31:30.885 --> 00:31:33.466

child abuse, aggravated child abuse.

00:31:33.787 --> 00:31:35.388

And unfortunately,

00:31:35.408 --> 00:31:36.828

their sentence was only

00:31:37.169 --> 00:31:37.969

thirty years or so.

00:31:38.029 --> 00:31:39.052

John, do you remember

00:31:39.052 --> 00:31:39.324

grown.

00:31:39.404 --> 00:31:39.484

Well,

00:31:39.504 --> 00:31:40.945

I thought it was between four and

00:31:40.985 --> 00:31:41.925

thirty years and they

00:31:41.965 --> 00:31:42.846

haven't decided yet.

00:31:43.516 --> 00:31:43.977

Oh, okay.

00:31:44.418 --> 00:31:44.639

Yeah.

00:31:44.719 --> 00:31:46.543

So I was thinking if they do

00:31:46.583 --> 00:31:47.786

go to thirty years.

00:31:47.806 --> 00:31:49.430

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:31:49.470 --> 00:31:51.274

The seventies or eighties, right?

00:31:51.695 --> 00:31:51.975

Right.

00:31:52.035 --> 00:31:53.336

So I guess the parole board

00:31:53.376 --> 00:31:55.398

is the one that decides after four years,

00:31:55.458 --> 00:31:56.458

right, if they get to stay.

00:31:56.739 --> 00:31:57.739

Yeah.

00:31:57.819 --> 00:31:58.880

I think that's how that works.

00:31:58.940 --> 00:32:01.402

So I'm hopeful that Sherry's

00:32:01.442 --> 00:32:03.644

book and some of the larger

00:32:03.704 --> 00:32:04.905

community discussion about

00:32:04.945 --> 00:32:06.326

this is going to help them

00:32:06.406 --> 00:32:07.386

stay in prison longer.

00:32:07.486 --> 00:32:07.827

Also,

00:32:07.887 --> 00:32:09.648

I did an episode yesterday where Jodi

00:32:09.668 --> 00:32:11.509

Hildebrandt is being sued

00:32:11.629 --> 00:32:13.391

again by another one of her clients.

00:32:13.971 --> 00:32:16.011

And it details a lot of the

00:32:16.051 --> 00:32:17.932

horrible things that those two are doing,

00:32:17.972 --> 00:32:19.432

which we'll touch on a

00:32:19.492 --> 00:32:20.532

little bit of that today as

00:32:20.552 --> 00:32:21.473

we're talking about the

00:32:22.273 --> 00:32:25.373

comparison between Lori and Ruby.

00:32:26.293 --> 00:32:27.634

So I think the first thing I

00:32:27.654 --> 00:32:29.369

want to talk about is,

00:32:29.618 --> 00:32:30.258

in light of the

00:32:30.298 --> 00:32:31.558

narcissistic traits that we

00:32:31.598 --> 00:32:32.273

just went over,

00:32:32.273 --> 00:32:33.286

in the

00:32:33.326 --> 00:32:36.424

context of Lori and Ruby's crimes

00:32:36.647 --> 00:32:37.488

just talking about the

00:32:37.508 --> 00:32:39.629

different ways that these

00:32:39.669 --> 00:32:40.850

personality traits

00:32:41.970 --> 00:32:43.931

manifested in the

00:32:43.971 --> 00:32:45.272

commission of their crimes.

00:32:45.892 --> 00:32:47.634

So maybe just to go back and

00:32:47.674 --> 00:32:49.508

look at it and specifically

00:32:49.548 --> 00:32:51.810

the inability to accept responsibility.

00:32:52.471 --> 00:32:53.531

I wanted to play a little

00:32:53.571 --> 00:32:55.873

bit from Ruby's sentencing

00:32:55.913 --> 00:32:57.313

statements and a little bit

00:32:57.393 --> 00:33:00.075

from Lori's just to compare the two.

00:33:01.876 --> 00:33:02.517

It's pretty...

00:33:03.437 --> 00:33:04.458

It's pretty interesting to

00:33:04.518 --> 00:33:06.979

see how similar they are in so many ways.

00:33:07.039 --> 00:33:08.420

I'm not going to play the

00:33:08.440 --> 00:33:09.380

whole things again,

00:33:09.420 --> 00:33:12.260

but just enough to give us an idea.

00:33:12.280 --> 00:33:12.821

So far,

00:33:12.841 --> 00:33:14.101

she has used her time in jail to

00:33:14.221 --> 00:33:15.802

unwrap the layers upon

00:33:15.822 --> 00:33:16.823

layers of deceit and

00:33:16.843 --> 00:33:19.264

deception forced upon her

00:33:19.664 --> 00:33:20.765

over the last four years by

00:33:20.785 --> 00:33:22.406

an unscrupulous individual.

00:33:23.832 --> 00:33:25.313

Ruby realizes that she still

00:33:25.333 --> 00:33:26.494

has work to do in shedding

00:33:26.514 --> 00:33:28.375

those thinking errors and

00:33:28.415 --> 00:33:29.776

to reestablish a better and

00:33:29.816 --> 00:33:33.219

correct pattern of thinking and behavior.

00:33:33.259 --> 00:33:35.240

Ruby realizes that changing your thinking,

00:33:36.481 --> 00:33:37.182

reestablishing

00:33:37.222 --> 00:33:39.183

relationships and healing

00:33:39.424 --> 00:33:41.545

are not simple or easy tasks.

00:33:42.426 --> 00:33:42.746

However,

00:33:42.786 --> 00:33:46.889

she is committed to doing that work.

00:33:46.909 --> 00:33:47.710

I would like the court to

00:33:47.730 --> 00:33:49.491

know that Ruby Franke is a delightful,

00:33:49.711 --> 00:33:51.993

respectful and responsible person.

00:33:53.184 --> 00:33:53.364

Yeah,

00:33:53.384 --> 00:33:55.365

so I started with that statement by

00:33:55.425 --> 00:33:57.787

her attorney because I just wanted to say,

00:33:58.603 --> 00:34:00.764

it's so interesting to me when

00:34:00.844 --> 00:34:04.506

someone like Ruby can fool

00:34:04.546 --> 00:34:06.287

people into thinking that

00:34:06.307 --> 00:34:08.268

she's a delightful, respectful person.

00:34:09.979 --> 00:34:10.319

You know,

00:34:10.660 --> 00:34:13.202

it's that charming nature that a

00:34:13.242 --> 00:34:14.002

lot of people with

00:34:14.042 --> 00:34:15.563

narcissistic traits have to

00:34:15.623 --> 00:34:17.345

portray one personality in

00:34:17.585 --> 00:34:19.206

public or in front of

00:34:19.246 --> 00:34:20.567

people they want to impress.

00:34:21.208 --> 00:34:22.048

But in private,

00:34:22.088 --> 00:34:23.529

they're actually doing

00:34:23.570 --> 00:34:24.450

terrible things to the

00:34:24.470 --> 00:34:25.371

people they care about.

00:34:26.392 --> 00:34:28.433

Yeah, almost like code switching.

00:34:28.493 --> 00:34:29.254

Yeah, exactly.

00:34:29.594 --> 00:34:30.219

Yeah.

00:34:30.279 --> 00:34:32.478

So now let's go to just a

00:34:32.538 --> 00:34:35.261

brief portion of what she actually says.

00:34:35.457 --> 00:34:37.070

precedented.

00:34:37.130 --> 00:34:39.091

So sorry to leave to you to

00:34:39.131 --> 00:34:41.672

finish what we both started together.

00:34:41.889 --> 00:34:42.233

enough.

00:34:42.253 --> 00:34:44.274

The ending of our marriage is a tragedy.

00:34:46.824 --> 00:34:48.604

And you're a ratchet on my heart.

00:34:49.805 --> 00:34:51.985

And I'll never be able to undo.

00:34:53.985 --> 00:34:54.986

She's talking about Kevin.

00:34:56.126 --> 00:34:57.046

To my babies.

00:34:59.546 --> 00:35:00.867

My six little chicks.

00:35:02.987 --> 00:35:03.987

You were a part of me.

00:35:05.928 --> 00:35:07.368

I was the mama duck who was

00:35:07.408 --> 00:35:09.628

consistently running you to safety.

00:35:11.949 --> 00:35:12.909

I can still remember that.

00:35:14.060 --> 00:35:15.200

Over the past four years,

00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:16.080

I was in a deep

00:35:16.160 --> 00:35:17.941

undercurrent that led us to danger.

00:35:17.961 --> 00:35:22.502

I was in a world launched

00:35:22.522 --> 00:35:23.602

into darkness knowingly.

00:35:23.622 --> 00:35:27.743

I was so disoriented that I

00:35:27.783 --> 00:35:29.203

believed dark was light and

00:35:29.263 --> 00:35:30.103

light was wrong.

00:35:32.344 --> 00:35:34.544

I would do anything in this world for you.

00:35:36.065 --> 00:35:38.165

My role was to sacrifice all

00:35:38.205 --> 00:35:39.345

things masterfully

00:35:39.365 --> 00:35:41.486

manipulated into something very ugly.

00:35:43.485 --> 00:35:44.706

I took from you all that was

00:35:44.786 --> 00:35:47.308

soft and safe and good.

00:35:48.548 --> 00:35:49.909

I took from you your mother.

00:35:52.551 --> 00:35:54.692

How terrible this must have been for you.

00:35:59.255 --> 00:36:01.076

And I will never stop crying

00:36:02.477 --> 00:36:04.339

for her and her tender souls.

00:36:05.980 --> 00:36:07.861

You are so precious to me.

00:36:08.781 --> 00:36:09.422

I'm sorry.

00:36:11.067 --> 00:36:11.708

So John,

00:36:11.948 --> 00:36:13.609

when you and I watched this the

00:36:13.669 --> 00:36:15.450

first time, I mean, not,

00:36:15.490 --> 00:36:16.791

we didn't watch it at the same time,

00:36:16.831 --> 00:36:17.551

I don't think, but,

00:36:17.852 --> 00:36:19.012

but we commented on our

00:36:19.453 --> 00:36:20.794

episode about Sherry's book.

00:36:20.854 --> 00:36:22.335

You and I both wanted to

00:36:22.355 --> 00:36:23.335

believe that Ruby was

00:36:23.375 --> 00:36:25.337

really sincere in her apology.

00:36:27.158 --> 00:36:29.059

And for me reading Sherry's

00:36:29.099 --> 00:36:30.520

book completely changed my

00:36:30.560 --> 00:36:31.341

opinion on that.

00:36:31.661 --> 00:36:32.442

How was it for you?

00:36:34.323 --> 00:36:36.925

Well, yeah, I mean, honestly,

00:36:38.045 --> 00:36:40.047

if a mom's talking to her kids,

00:36:42.324 --> 00:36:44.145

apologizing and the kids

00:36:44.925 --> 00:36:46.845

don't accept the apology

00:36:47.726 --> 00:36:49.066

and the kids are the victims,

00:36:49.666 --> 00:36:51.427

I'm going to believe the kids every time.

00:36:51.467 --> 00:36:51.827

Right.

00:36:51.967 --> 00:36:54.628

And if, and if you read Sherry's book,

00:36:55.288 --> 00:36:59.289

there's zero sort of like, uh, buying it.

00:36:59.369 --> 00:36:59.990

You know what I mean?

00:37:00.270 --> 00:37:00.750

Right.

00:37:00.790 --> 00:37:03.331

Sherry's just like, ah, I'm like, whoa.

00:37:04.651 --> 00:37:07.272

So that, that is, um, that is shocking.

00:37:08.368 --> 00:37:10.670

and yeah that does that does

00:37:10.830 --> 00:37:12.331

uh push me in a different

00:37:12.351 --> 00:37:14.672

direction for sure yeah i

00:37:14.713 --> 00:37:15.793

think when you start to

00:37:15.873 --> 00:37:18.175

recognize the ways in which

00:37:18.635 --> 00:37:21.637

ruby manipulated situations

00:37:21.677 --> 00:37:23.639

people and her own children

00:37:24.511 --> 00:37:26.192

And you see it detailed in

00:37:26.212 --> 00:37:27.312

the book so well,

00:37:27.392 --> 00:37:29.173

the different tactics that she uses.

00:37:30.033 --> 00:37:32.294

It then is easy to see this

00:37:32.615 --> 00:37:34.015

statement in a new light

00:37:34.115 --> 00:37:36.016

where she really is not sorry.

00:37:36.456 --> 00:37:38.617

She's very upset about being caught.

00:37:38.757 --> 00:37:40.078

She's very upset that she's

00:37:40.098 --> 00:37:41.398

facing consequences.

00:37:42.159 --> 00:37:43.899

But I don't think that she

00:37:44.700 --> 00:37:47.161

regrets any of her parenting choices.

00:37:48.962 --> 00:37:49.302

Yeah,

00:37:49.362 --> 00:37:50.643

when she talked about the end of her

00:37:50.683 --> 00:37:53.804

marriage being a tragedy, I thought,

00:37:54.404 --> 00:37:56.305

where did you show that at

00:37:56.385 --> 00:37:58.185

any point in the timeline

00:37:58.886 --> 00:38:00.506

prior to that testimony?

00:38:00.526 --> 00:38:00.786

Like,

00:38:02.007 --> 00:38:04.387

is there any indication that she's like,

00:38:04.487 --> 00:38:05.548

oh, Kevin, I miss you.

00:38:05.628 --> 00:38:08.289

Oh, Kevin, this is terrible.

00:38:08.469 --> 00:38:09.629

Oh, Kevin, I miss you.

00:38:09.729 --> 00:38:10.750

This is so sad.

00:38:11.250 --> 00:38:12.270

It's like she was partying

00:38:12.330 --> 00:38:13.631

up on jet skis in St.

00:38:13.651 --> 00:38:14.371

George with

00:38:15.256 --> 00:38:17.217

with Jodi and the other person,

00:38:17.257 --> 00:38:20.299

like massage candle lit

00:38:21.040 --> 00:38:25.543

evenings in freaking Sherry's bedroom.

00:38:25.623 --> 00:38:26.263

You know what I mean?

00:38:26.343 --> 00:38:28.945

Like where was there any,

00:38:29.325 --> 00:38:32.787

any hint that she was viewing her,

00:38:33.588 --> 00:38:34.888

you know,

00:38:34.908 --> 00:38:36.429

separation from Kevin is a tragedy.

00:38:36.690 --> 00:38:37.610

The other thing I never

00:38:37.650 --> 00:38:38.871

thought is before the

00:38:38.911 --> 00:38:40.192

language she uses is

00:38:41.766 --> 00:38:44.687

as a mom is being in a deep undercurrent.

00:38:45.227 --> 00:38:46.808

And that, that feels,

00:38:47.728 --> 00:38:50.169

that feels like a lack of, you know,

00:38:50.229 --> 00:38:52.810

I think she was half the undercurrent,

00:38:52.910 --> 00:38:54.010

right?

00:38:54.070 --> 00:38:55.731

Like she wasn't,

00:38:55.751 --> 00:38:57.211

she wasn't in an undercurrent.

00:38:57.331 --> 00:38:57.731

Yes.

00:38:58.151 --> 00:38:58.511

Yes.

00:38:58.532 --> 00:39:00.252

Her, she blames,

00:39:00.492 --> 00:39:02.153

she blames Jody for everything.

00:39:02.273 --> 00:39:02.633

And that,

00:39:02.673 --> 00:39:03.893

that was the point that I wanted

00:39:03.933 --> 00:39:06.194

to get to over here is that, um,

00:39:06.634 --> 00:39:08.896

She, you know, when they got arrested,

00:39:09.316 --> 00:39:11.438

she was already cutting off

00:39:11.458 --> 00:39:12.618

communication with Jodi.

00:39:12.778 --> 00:39:13.659

She was already in

00:39:13.719 --> 00:39:15.360

self-preservation mode where she was like,

00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:15.761

okay,

00:39:16.301 --> 00:39:17.982

I'm going to say Jodi's the one that

00:39:18.042 --> 00:39:18.983

made me do all of this

00:39:19.023 --> 00:39:20.484

stuff that I never would have done it.

00:39:21.504 --> 00:39:23.146

She totally throws Jodi and

00:39:23.186 --> 00:39:24.667

Jodi's teachings under the bus.

00:39:24.727 --> 00:39:27.188

However, in the book,

00:39:28.249 --> 00:39:29.270

I just want to quote what

00:39:29.310 --> 00:39:30.191

Sherry says here.

00:39:30.211 --> 00:39:32.152

This is so, so important.

00:39:32.172 --> 00:39:32.312

Okay.

00:39:32.816 --> 00:39:34.500

Connections is the company

00:39:34.540 --> 00:39:35.983

that Jodi and Ruby formed

00:39:36.023 --> 00:39:37.786

together to perpetuate

00:39:37.807 --> 00:39:40.131

these ideas about mental

00:39:40.192 --> 00:39:41.695

health and parenting.

00:39:42.592 --> 00:39:44.192

And Sherry says in her book,

00:39:44.692 --> 00:39:46.033

this is on page one oh seven,

00:39:46.613 --> 00:39:47.693

connections wasn't

00:39:47.793 --> 00:39:49.313

introducing Ruby to a new

00:39:49.333 --> 00:39:50.133

way of thinking.

00:39:50.433 --> 00:39:51.394

It was giving her the

00:39:51.434 --> 00:39:52.474

vocabulary and

00:39:52.554 --> 00:39:54.114

pseudoscientific backing to

00:39:54.174 --> 00:39:56.615

justify what she'd been doing all along.

00:39:57.215 --> 00:39:58.675

Jodi's system had simply

00:39:58.715 --> 00:40:00.195

slapped a fancy label on

00:40:00.215 --> 00:40:01.595

this emotional starvation

00:40:01.655 --> 00:40:03.496

diet and called it therapy.

00:40:04.016 --> 00:40:04.616

In the end,

00:40:04.796 --> 00:40:07.156

connections didn't change Ruby's tactics.

00:40:07.536 --> 00:40:10.277

It just gave her a manual to refine them.

00:40:12.583 --> 00:40:16.647

So absolutely Ruby was already here before,

00:40:16.947 --> 00:40:18.829

you know, she got in, into Jody.

00:40:18.869 --> 00:40:20.950

Jody just again, gave her some,

00:40:20.990 --> 00:40:22.252

gave her some new vocabulary.

00:40:22.292 --> 00:40:23.613

They did create their own in

00:40:23.653 --> 00:40:24.814

speak and connections.

00:40:25.598 --> 00:40:26.830

And after reading the

00:40:26.870 --> 00:40:30.289

chapter about Sherry going through,

00:40:30.329 --> 00:40:32.650

she details her therapy with Jody.

00:40:33.310 --> 00:40:34.671

And at the end of that chapter,

00:40:34.691 --> 00:40:35.471

my note says,

00:40:35.531 --> 00:40:36.872

Jody gets her clients to

00:40:36.932 --> 00:40:38.512

engage in self-betrayal and

00:40:38.572 --> 00:40:40.833

self-sabotage to not trust

00:40:40.853 --> 00:40:41.814

their own instincts.

00:40:42.214 --> 00:40:43.214

They're taught not to

00:40:43.254 --> 00:40:44.975

self-validate or self-soothe,

00:40:45.015 --> 00:40:47.376

but to look only to Jody for validation.

00:40:47.816 --> 00:40:49.317

And Kevin bought it a hundred percent.

00:40:49.397 --> 00:40:50.037

Unfortunately,

00:40:50.097 --> 00:40:52.038

he really believed what Jody

00:40:52.058 --> 00:40:53.278

taught him about himself.

00:40:53.739 --> 00:40:55.099

And that's why when he shows

00:40:55.139 --> 00:40:56.340

up to the police station to

00:40:56.380 --> 00:40:58.581

pick up the kids, he says, you know,

00:40:58.621 --> 00:41:00.681

he hasn't seen his kids in, you know,

00:41:00.741 --> 00:41:02.282

or his wife hasn't spoken

00:41:02.322 --> 00:41:03.763

to any of them in over a year.

00:41:04.703 --> 00:41:06.364

and he says that he was

00:41:06.404 --> 00:41:07.644

invited to be he was

00:41:07.684 --> 00:41:09.325

invited to leave and he

00:41:09.425 --> 00:41:10.605

absolutely believes that it

00:41:10.625 --> 00:41:11.685

was his behavior that

00:41:11.725 --> 00:41:13.286

caused the breakdown of

00:41:13.326 --> 00:41:17.767

their marriage yeah so

00:41:17.807 --> 00:41:19.728

super harmful and then you

00:41:19.768 --> 00:41:20.628

know getting back to

00:41:20.688 --> 00:41:22.649

talking about how this um

00:41:22.929 --> 00:41:25.050

lack of accountability shows up for lori

00:41:25.426 --> 00:41:27.474

will be a new call for John,

00:41:27.574 --> 00:41:30.256

so hold on to your hat there, John.

00:41:30.723 --> 00:41:31.803

This is something I've gone

00:41:31.823 --> 00:41:33.704

through in my channel before, but Colby,

00:41:33.744 --> 00:41:36.346

who is Lori's only living child,

00:41:37.326 --> 00:41:38.347

he's about the same age as

00:41:38.407 --> 00:41:39.268

my oldest daughter.

00:41:39.308 --> 00:41:40.508

He's got a YouTube channel

00:41:40.668 --> 00:41:42.649

called The Scar Wars Podcast,

00:41:43.410 --> 00:41:44.871

and he's doing some great things.

00:41:44.931 --> 00:41:45.931

But one of the things he

00:41:45.971 --> 00:41:48.513

posted was a call with his mom

00:41:49.173 --> 00:41:50.394

And this is after Lori's

00:41:50.414 --> 00:41:53.736

been convicted and Colby confronts her.

00:41:53.997 --> 00:41:54.897

And, you know,

00:41:55.017 --> 00:41:57.259

in Lori's allocution statement, she says,

00:41:58.159 --> 00:41:59.500

you know, there were no murders here.

00:41:59.540 --> 00:41:59.841

In fact,

00:41:59.921 --> 00:42:01.462

I'm going to play just a little

00:42:01.482 --> 00:42:03.783

bit of that as well to

00:42:04.244 --> 00:42:06.165

remind people who may not have seen it.

00:42:06.930 --> 00:42:13.732

Jesus knows me and Jesus understands me.

00:42:14.052 --> 00:42:16.273

I mourn with all of you who

00:42:16.333 --> 00:42:19.314

mourn my children and Tammy.

00:42:22.074 --> 00:42:25.556

Jesus Christ knows the truth

00:42:25.676 --> 00:42:28.456

of what happened here.

00:42:28.476 --> 00:42:30.997

Jesus Christ knows that no

00:42:31.177 --> 00:42:33.698

one was murdered in this case.

00:42:35.093 --> 00:42:36.995

Accidental deaths happen.

00:42:37.816 --> 00:42:39.457

Suicides happen.

00:42:40.258 --> 00:42:41.439

Fatal side effects from

00:42:41.499 --> 00:42:43.240

medications happen.

00:42:44.056 --> 00:42:45.117

I don't know about you, John,

00:42:45.157 --> 00:42:48.400

but I remember exactly how

00:42:48.480 --> 00:42:49.641

I felt when I first heard

00:42:49.681 --> 00:42:50.782

that statement read.

00:42:51.083 --> 00:42:53.465

I was just completely filled with rage.

00:42:54.025 --> 00:42:55.226

So like kids just

00:42:55.346 --> 00:42:59.190

spontaneously burn up like.

00:43:00.745 --> 00:43:02.606

I think that's what went

00:43:02.626 --> 00:43:03.466

through the minds of every

00:43:03.507 --> 00:43:05.127

single person when we first

00:43:05.187 --> 00:43:05.928

heard that statement.

00:43:05.948 --> 00:43:06.488

It was like, okay,

00:43:06.528 --> 00:43:07.408

if there were no murders,

00:43:07.428 --> 00:43:08.249

then what happened?

00:43:08.429 --> 00:43:10.010

How in the world could you

00:43:10.050 --> 00:43:11.451

possibly explain this?

00:43:12.211 --> 00:43:13.291

And that's exactly what

00:43:13.331 --> 00:43:14.412

Colby wanted to know.

00:43:14.792 --> 00:43:17.313

Bullets just randomly fly into people?

00:43:17.534 --> 00:43:20.175

Yeah.

00:43:23.236 --> 00:43:23.677

Wild.

00:43:24.577 --> 00:43:25.798

I mean, even with...

00:43:27.743 --> 00:43:30.826

with the tammy like what

00:43:30.886 --> 00:43:32.468

which of those things would

00:43:32.508 --> 00:43:35.712

fit tammy i think she maybe

00:43:35.812 --> 00:43:37.803

maybe lori thinks that um

00:43:37.843 --> 00:43:38.784

what was it fatal side

00:43:38.824 --> 00:43:40.205

effects from medication i

00:43:40.245 --> 00:43:41.226

think maybe that's what

00:43:41.487 --> 00:43:42.748

lori was trying to allege

00:43:42.788 --> 00:43:44.370

in that case is there any

00:43:44.430 --> 00:43:46.953

autopsy that like what was she

00:43:49.561 --> 00:43:49.801

I mean,

00:43:49.841 --> 00:43:51.042

were her vitamins laced with

00:43:51.082 --> 00:43:52.464

peanuts and she had a peanut allergy?

00:43:52.564 --> 00:43:56.047

I mean, what accident happened?

00:43:56.908 --> 00:43:56.988

Yeah.

00:43:57.008 --> 00:43:57.208

I mean,

00:43:57.228 --> 00:43:58.829

the thing is that Tammy did take

00:43:58.889 --> 00:44:00.190

some supplements and things,

00:44:00.230 --> 00:44:02.853

but those were all immediately ruled out.

00:44:02.993 --> 00:44:05.635

Even the first time her

00:44:05.675 --> 00:44:07.036

death was attributed to...

00:44:09.451 --> 00:44:12.334

I believe a pulmonary embolism at first,

00:44:13.175 --> 00:44:15.258

and then she later had to be exhumed.

00:44:15.398 --> 00:44:17.361

And the second finding by

00:44:17.401 --> 00:44:18.923

the medical examiner was

00:44:19.423 --> 00:44:21.005

asphyxia at the hands of another.

00:44:21.686 --> 00:44:21.906

00:44:22.899 --> 00:44:24.260

And the fact that Chad

00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:26.741

wanted no autopsy and to

00:44:26.861 --> 00:44:29.402

ram the funeral through in like a week,

00:44:29.943 --> 00:44:30.223

right?

00:44:30.303 --> 00:44:31.043

Do I have that right?

00:44:31.103 --> 00:44:32.764

It was just a few days.

00:44:32.804 --> 00:44:34.485

It was six days after she died.

00:44:34.845 --> 00:44:36.066

It screams to me,

00:44:36.126 --> 00:44:38.767

I don't want any evidence to be gathered,

00:44:38.887 --> 00:44:39.127

right?

00:44:39.247 --> 00:44:39.948

Right, right.

00:44:39.988 --> 00:44:41.688

Like they were in Rexburg.

00:44:41.748 --> 00:44:42.589

Her family was in

00:44:42.649 --> 00:44:43.749

Springville and he was

00:44:43.790 --> 00:44:45.430

giving them no time to travel.

00:44:45.470 --> 00:44:46.591

Their son was on a mission,

00:44:46.631 --> 00:44:47.751

didn't get to come home.

00:44:48.332 --> 00:44:48.692

So yeah,

00:44:48.712 --> 00:44:51.333

they rushed it through to try to

00:44:51.373 --> 00:44:52.154

cover that up.

00:44:52.894 --> 00:44:54.895

So I think it's just, you know,

00:44:54.935 --> 00:44:56.915

part of Lori's delusion is

00:44:56.955 --> 00:44:58.396

that if she accepts one

00:44:58.436 --> 00:44:59.776

fact about the case,

00:44:59.976 --> 00:45:02.677

then the whole house of cards comes down.

00:45:03.358 --> 00:45:05.378

And I think that would be psychologically,

00:45:06.379 --> 00:45:08.479

you know, devastating for her.

00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:11.420

And if you show that acronym

00:45:11.480 --> 00:45:12.541

again really quickly...

00:45:13.787 --> 00:45:15.388

I'm thinking about just this

00:45:15.748 --> 00:45:17.809

invocation of Jesus Christ

00:45:17.949 --> 00:45:18.889

all over the place.

00:45:20.269 --> 00:45:21.270

It's an unwillingness to

00:45:21.310 --> 00:45:22.690

accept responsibility.

00:45:23.411 --> 00:45:26.472

It's also attention grabbing.

00:45:27.404 --> 00:45:29.246

It's also very grandiose.

00:45:29.686 --> 00:45:29.966

I mean,

00:45:30.386 --> 00:45:32.388

what's more grandiose than invoking

00:45:32.708 --> 00:45:36.631

the Savior of mankind into

00:45:36.671 --> 00:45:37.932

this murder trial?

00:45:38.273 --> 00:45:39.834

And she could sound like any

00:45:40.655 --> 00:45:42.636

Mormon church primary

00:45:42.676 --> 00:45:45.238

teacher in her testimony of Jesus, right?

00:45:45.278 --> 00:45:46.019

Jesus knows me.

00:45:46.039 --> 00:45:48.921

Jesus loves me.

00:45:48.941 --> 00:45:50.162

And about lack of empathy,

00:45:51.003 --> 00:45:52.104

how does she think—

00:45:53.576 --> 00:45:55.778

The surviving family members

00:45:55.838 --> 00:45:57.339

of the victims feel,

00:45:58.980 --> 00:46:00.081

where's her empathy for

00:46:00.121 --> 00:46:01.642

them when she's just, like,

00:46:02.242 --> 00:46:04.183

denying any responsibility

00:46:04.284 --> 00:46:06.425

and saying Jesus has these

00:46:06.465 --> 00:46:07.586

people in their arms?

00:46:07.646 --> 00:46:09.607

And, you know, like,

00:46:09.727 --> 00:46:11.609

it completely lacks empathy

00:46:11.829 --> 00:46:13.910

for not just the victims,

00:46:13.970 --> 00:46:16.072

but the surviving family members.

00:46:17.074 --> 00:46:17.314

you know,

00:46:17.354 --> 00:46:20.195

it's very manipulative and she's

00:46:20.255 --> 00:46:23.057

exploiting the public media, religion,

00:46:23.097 --> 00:46:24.337

people's beliefs.

00:46:24.958 --> 00:46:25.678

Yeah.

00:46:25.718 --> 00:46:28.099

You know, yeah,

00:46:28.119 --> 00:46:29.920

it's very exploitative and manipulative,

00:46:30.020 --> 00:46:30.760

I think.

00:46:30.920 --> 00:46:31.200

Yeah.

00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:32.261

And this is also,

00:46:32.301 --> 00:46:33.481

it's important to point out

00:46:33.521 --> 00:46:35.242

that manipulative people

00:46:35.302 --> 00:46:37.103

know how to feign empathy.

00:46:37.723 --> 00:46:39.444

And so when you hear Lori say,

00:46:40.144 --> 00:46:43.006

I mourn with all of you who mourn and,

00:46:43.486 --> 00:46:43.726

you know,

00:46:44.213 --> 00:46:45.974

Did you think that was sincere, John,

00:46:45.994 --> 00:46:47.415

or could you tell that she

00:46:47.455 --> 00:46:49.497

was fake crying?

00:46:49.577 --> 00:46:49.857

I mean,

00:46:49.937 --> 00:46:52.840

Ruby did a better job of crying than,

00:46:53.120 --> 00:46:55.942

than, uh, than Lori for sure.

00:46:56.400 --> 00:46:58.401

yeah yeah absolutely but

00:46:58.441 --> 00:46:59.642

yeah the the feigned

00:46:59.742 --> 00:47:01.203

empathy is i know how to

00:47:01.283 --> 00:47:02.403

say this thing but i don't

00:47:02.423 --> 00:47:03.504

know how to actually feel

00:47:03.564 --> 00:47:06.145

it and you know i can i can

00:47:06.165 --> 00:47:07.366

attest to the fact that

00:47:08.006 --> 00:47:09.047

there is more than one

00:47:09.107 --> 00:47:10.407

narcissist in my life or

00:47:10.468 --> 00:47:11.608

person with narcissistic

00:47:11.628 --> 00:47:13.849

traits who did such a good

00:47:13.889 --> 00:47:15.290

job of feigning empathy

00:47:15.310 --> 00:47:16.611

that i really believed that

00:47:16.651 --> 00:47:18.872

they cared about me and so

00:47:19.052 --> 00:47:20.353

that's why it's so

00:47:20.413 --> 00:47:21.914

important to watch when

00:47:21.954 --> 00:47:24.015

people's words and actions don't match

00:47:25.456 --> 00:47:28.059

So when they say, I mourn with you,

00:47:28.259 --> 00:47:29.701

but there's no actual sign

00:47:29.741 --> 00:47:31.884

of mourning or any sorrow or contrition,

00:47:32.344 --> 00:47:35.528

obviously that's a place

00:47:35.568 --> 00:47:36.128

where their words and

00:47:36.189 --> 00:47:37.050

actions don't match.

00:47:37.907 --> 00:47:39.007

Absolutely.

00:47:39.027 --> 00:47:39.628

Yeah.

00:47:39.968 --> 00:47:41.729

So now just going back and

00:47:41.749 --> 00:47:42.489

we're going to listen to

00:47:42.509 --> 00:47:44.810

this phone call between Lori and Colby.

00:47:44.930 --> 00:47:47.131

And this call was it was relatively long.

00:47:47.171 --> 00:47:48.252

I want to say it was around

00:47:48.872 --> 00:47:50.192

fifty minutes or so.

00:47:50.993 --> 00:47:51.833

And, you know,

00:47:52.173 --> 00:47:53.694

Colby starts with a simple

00:47:53.714 --> 00:47:55.755

question of asking, you know,

00:47:56.275 --> 00:47:57.556

what happened to the kids?

00:47:58.256 --> 00:48:00.177

And it takes Lori around

00:48:00.517 --> 00:48:01.898

thirty minutes or so to get

00:48:01.958 --> 00:48:03.799

there because she's doing

00:48:03.839 --> 00:48:05.419

all this double speak, backpedaling,

00:48:05.479 --> 00:48:06.960

explaining, over explaining.

00:48:08.383 --> 00:48:10.084

And then once she does,

00:48:10.805 --> 00:48:12.246

it's not a narrative.

00:48:13.206 --> 00:48:14.647

She starts an explanation,

00:48:14.687 --> 00:48:16.448

and then she goes and tries

00:48:16.468 --> 00:48:17.669

to remind people of how

00:48:18.190 --> 00:48:21.712

much she took care of Tylee and JJ,

00:48:21.732 --> 00:48:22.572

how much she loved them,

00:48:22.612 --> 00:48:23.673

what a good mother she was.

00:48:24.454 --> 00:48:26.255

It's very hard to understand,

00:48:26.295 --> 00:48:28.396

but I've clipped out this little portion,

00:48:28.416 --> 00:48:29.337

and we can talk about it.

00:48:30.099 --> 00:48:34.442

So you imagine walking in, finding them,

00:48:36.064 --> 00:48:38.085

and they had been gone for hours.

00:48:38.866 --> 00:48:40.347

There is nothing I can do,

00:48:40.547 --> 00:48:44.911

even though you can't,

00:48:45.011 --> 00:48:46.192

you just can't imagine.

00:48:46.252 --> 00:48:47.313

You can't imagine that

00:48:47.333 --> 00:48:49.394

scenario because until you believe it,

00:48:49.414 --> 00:48:50.956

you can't imagine that scenario.

00:48:51.756 --> 00:48:56.240

And when I came in and I knew

00:48:59.698 --> 00:49:01.639

I knew Tylee had been upset,

00:49:01.719 --> 00:49:02.779

and I knew that she was

00:49:02.879 --> 00:49:04.740

upset with me that weekend

00:49:05.080 --> 00:49:06.581

because she wouldn't stay

00:49:06.621 --> 00:49:07.702

in the house because I

00:49:07.742 --> 00:49:08.842

would not stay there.

00:49:08.902 --> 00:49:10.563

She hates Melanie Gibb, as you know.

00:49:10.763 --> 00:49:11.683

Everyone knows this.

00:49:12.023 --> 00:49:13.084

She hated her.

00:49:13.884 --> 00:49:14.885

And she couldn't stand her

00:49:14.945 --> 00:49:17.046

smell because she had the essential oils,

00:49:17.086 --> 00:49:18.206

and Tylee got sick of the

00:49:18.226 --> 00:49:19.307

essential oils in sixth

00:49:19.347 --> 00:49:20.427

grade because her teacher

00:49:20.447 --> 00:49:21.268

made her drink the

00:49:21.288 --> 00:49:22.328

essential oils in sixth

00:49:22.368 --> 00:49:23.749

grade to help with pancreatitis,

00:49:23.789 --> 00:49:24.549

if you remember all that.

00:49:24.569 --> 00:49:25.129

What the... So...

00:49:28.335 --> 00:49:29.855

She didn't wanna stay there.

00:49:30.435 --> 00:49:33.456

So I asked her to babysit JJ,

00:49:33.516 --> 00:49:34.756

put him to bed that night,

00:49:34.856 --> 00:49:37.577

which is what she always has done, right?

00:49:38.217 --> 00:49:41.037

She was gonna sit in bed.

00:49:41.057 --> 00:49:42.458

I was gonna do my podcast

00:49:42.478 --> 00:49:45.198

with stupid Melanie and Dave, right?

00:49:45.238 --> 00:49:46.558

So JJ wouldn't interrupt it.

00:49:47.118 --> 00:49:48.219

And then I was picking him

00:49:48.259 --> 00:49:49.219

up in the morning to get

00:49:49.259 --> 00:49:50.719

him ready and take him to school.

00:49:53.900 --> 00:49:56.280

And when I came in on that scene,

00:49:58.618 --> 00:50:00.219

And they were gone.

00:50:01.800 --> 00:50:08.144

I thought Tylee did it to get back at me.

00:50:08.584 --> 00:50:10.505

I thought it was all my fault.

00:50:11.225 --> 00:50:14.387

I thought she was mad at me.

00:50:15.528 --> 00:50:16.889

And that's what had happened.

00:50:17.029 --> 00:50:22.892

And the reason why she

00:50:22.952 --> 00:50:24.753

visited me and why JJ

00:50:24.793 --> 00:50:26.935

visited me and came to me

00:50:28.484 --> 00:50:30.726

Right after that is because

00:50:31.266 --> 00:50:33.007

to tell me that it wasn't

00:50:33.067 --> 00:50:35.889

my fault because I was blaming myself.

00:50:36.029 --> 00:50:37.010

One hundred percent.

00:50:37.950 --> 00:50:39.852

One hundred percent.

00:50:40.272 --> 00:50:41.953

Why didn't I get tiny more help?

00:50:42.293 --> 00:50:42.974

Why didn't I,

00:50:43.134 --> 00:50:44.975

why did I let her get off of her meds?

00:50:45.295 --> 00:50:47.477

Why did I not do something different?

00:50:47.537 --> 00:50:49.258

Why did I let Melanie get to stay here?

00:50:49.398 --> 00:50:50.959

Why did I do any of these

00:50:50.999 --> 00:50:53.661

things that would lead to this?

00:50:53.801 --> 00:50:55.822

How could it possibly have happened?

00:50:55.922 --> 00:50:56.523

Why?

00:50:57.023 --> 00:50:58.004

Why and how?

00:50:58.424 --> 00:51:02.227

Why and how?

00:51:02.247 --> 00:51:02.367

I mean,

00:51:02.387 --> 00:51:03.428

you can't even imagine what that is like.

00:51:03.448 --> 00:51:03.908

No one on the earth can

00:51:03.928 --> 00:51:05.249

imagine what that's like.

00:51:05.329 --> 00:51:06.810

You're telling me that Tylee

00:51:07.690 --> 00:51:11.053

took JJ's life and then

00:51:11.073 --> 00:51:13.314

took her own life.

00:51:13.454 --> 00:51:13.695

On accident.

00:51:13.715 --> 00:51:14.595

And took her own life then?

00:51:15.336 --> 00:51:16.597

After?

00:51:19.579 --> 00:51:20.699

So she says correct.

00:51:20.759 --> 00:51:22.300

It's hard for you to hear.

00:51:22.400 --> 00:51:25.883

So your raw reaction, John,

00:51:25.903 --> 00:51:27.364

this is your first time hearing this.

00:51:27.712 --> 00:51:28.993

Why don't you restate for us

00:51:31.615 --> 00:51:32.596

how you would summarize

00:51:32.656 --> 00:51:34.057

what Lori just claims?

00:51:34.838 --> 00:51:36.539

So that's why I left that

00:51:36.579 --> 00:51:38.021

Colby part in the end.

00:51:38.121 --> 00:51:40.042

Lori claims that she asked

00:51:40.062 --> 00:51:41.964

Tylee to babysit JJ.

00:51:42.404 --> 00:51:43.645

She claims that Tylee

00:51:43.785 --> 00:51:47.428

accidentally killed JJ by strangling him,

00:51:47.849 --> 00:51:49.170

holding him down too hard,

00:51:49.210 --> 00:51:50.051

something like that.

00:51:50.671 --> 00:51:52.253

and then killed herself.

00:51:52.673 --> 00:51:54.075

And I think she's alleging

00:51:54.615 --> 00:51:55.816

that it was an overdose of

00:51:55.876 --> 00:51:58.239

some kind because Tylee had

00:51:58.359 --> 00:51:59.600

been on medication and then

00:51:59.640 --> 00:52:01.763

got off medication, cold turkey.

00:52:01.843 --> 00:52:03.865

And so that's Lori's explanation,

00:52:03.925 --> 00:52:05.927

her convoluted explanation admittedly,

00:52:05.987 --> 00:52:06.487

that we just,

00:52:06.948 --> 00:52:08.109

it's so hard to understand

00:52:08.129 --> 00:52:09.010

what she's even talking

00:52:09.050 --> 00:52:10.131

about because of all of the

00:52:10.251 --> 00:52:11.593

manipulation and doublespeak.

00:52:13.184 --> 00:52:16.066

Yeah, so, and where, I'm just curious,

00:52:16.126 --> 00:52:17.587

where would Lori be

00:52:18.088 --> 00:52:20.129

claiming this babysitting

00:52:21.110 --> 00:52:23.752

homicide and suicide happened?

00:52:24.472 --> 00:52:25.933

In her town home in Rexburg.

00:52:26.434 --> 00:52:27.634

She said that she asked

00:52:27.674 --> 00:52:29.296

Tylee to take JJ upstairs

00:52:29.336 --> 00:52:30.737

so she could do her podcast.

00:52:31.157 --> 00:52:32.578

And then she claims that she

00:52:32.898 --> 00:52:34.219

finished the podcast and

00:52:34.259 --> 00:52:36.040

went upstairs and they were both gone.

00:52:37.181 --> 00:52:39.663

But we have to remember that

00:52:40.281 --> 00:52:42.302

it's so she was home.

00:52:42.322 --> 00:52:42.942

She was home.

00:52:43.243 --> 00:52:44.043

Yes, she was home.

00:52:44.083 --> 00:52:45.384

So she claimed she was in,

00:52:45.724 --> 00:52:48.425

in the house while one kid

00:52:48.465 --> 00:52:49.606

marries the other and

00:52:50.126 --> 00:52:51.126

murders the other and then

00:52:51.727 --> 00:52:52.647

dies by suicide.

00:52:53.087 --> 00:52:53.308

Right.

00:52:53.808 --> 00:52:55.048

And, and not only that, but,

00:52:55.188 --> 00:52:56.549

but Tylee's death date and

00:52:56.589 --> 00:52:58.530

JJ's death date are, are, are, are, are,

00:52:58.750 --> 00:53:05.113

are, are, are, are, are, are, are, are,

00:53:05.133 --> 00:53:05.273

are,

00:53:08.665 --> 00:53:10.566

Like these are her own children.

00:53:11.626 --> 00:53:15.087

Like these are her, these are her, I mean,

00:53:15.808 --> 00:53:17.608

are these both her biological children?

00:53:18.329 --> 00:53:19.969

Tylee is her biological daughter.

00:53:20.389 --> 00:53:21.710

JJ was adopted.

00:53:22.090 --> 00:53:22.350

Right.

00:53:22.370 --> 00:53:27.272

So yeah, these are her legal children.

00:53:27.532 --> 00:53:29.373

One biological, both legal.

00:53:29.853 --> 00:53:30.053

Right.

00:53:31.467 --> 00:53:35.150

Like, I just can't, like,

00:53:37.312 --> 00:53:38.513

if one of my kids,

00:53:39.674 --> 00:53:41.076

any of my kids were dead,

00:53:42.157 --> 00:53:42.937

I wouldn't be able to,

00:53:43.458 --> 00:53:44.579

I can't imagine being able

00:53:44.619 --> 00:53:46.781

to appear on a podcast to talk about it.

00:53:47.822 --> 00:53:49.784

I couldn't imagine being able to breathe.

00:53:51.745 --> 00:53:55.489

Like, I would feel so sick, so devastated,

00:53:56.570 --> 00:53:57.691

so destroyed.

00:53:59.155 --> 00:54:01.996

let alone make up a story

00:54:02.456 --> 00:54:05.537

that implicates them as the perpetrators.

00:54:05.557 --> 00:54:05.957

Right.

00:54:06.277 --> 00:54:13.779

I it's, it is a level of evil that I just,

00:54:14.179 --> 00:54:15.320

there's no other way to

00:54:15.540 --> 00:54:18.681

frame it than some sort of

00:54:21.581 --> 00:54:23.722

severe personality disorder that

00:54:24.846 --> 00:54:26.287

Like narcissism.

00:54:26.427 --> 00:54:30.029

But I'm just wondering, like, and I know,

00:54:30.329 --> 00:54:30.609

Megan,

00:54:31.129 --> 00:54:32.610

I've had you on Mormon Stories to

00:54:32.670 --> 00:54:35.351

talk about your history

00:54:35.391 --> 00:54:36.452

growing up with Lori.

00:54:38.793 --> 00:54:40.374

Was there any indication

00:54:40.434 --> 00:54:43.656

that her sickness was so

00:54:43.756 --> 00:54:46.617

incredibly severe that she

00:54:46.637 --> 00:54:48.058

would be capable of that

00:54:48.578 --> 00:54:51.359

phone call with her son, right?

00:54:51.379 --> 00:54:51.640

Mm-hmm.

00:54:51.660 --> 00:54:51.880

So...

00:54:55.978 --> 00:54:57.419

Is that so severe?

00:54:57.780 --> 00:54:57.980

Yeah.

00:54:58.580 --> 00:55:01.863

I'm just, I'm just, I'm shocked.

00:55:02.403 --> 00:55:03.043

What I think,

00:55:03.104 --> 00:55:04.945

what I think what shocks me

00:55:04.985 --> 00:55:07.647

the most is that in Lori's behavior,

00:55:09.508 --> 00:55:10.749

it's no different.

00:55:12.210 --> 00:55:13.671

You know, we, we have, you know,

00:55:13.792 --> 00:55:15.353

typical garden variety

00:55:15.393 --> 00:55:16.454

manipulations over

00:55:16.534 --> 00:55:18.455

something seemingly small.

00:55:18.715 --> 00:55:18.975

Right.

00:55:19.476 --> 00:55:20.016

And then on the,

00:55:20.216 --> 00:55:22.138

on the very opposite end of the spectrum,

00:55:22.178 --> 00:55:23.599

we have the murder of,

00:55:24.405 --> 00:55:25.266

of your own children,

00:55:25.306 --> 00:55:26.586

the death of your own children.

00:55:27.667 --> 00:55:29.688

And the thing that shocks me, John,

00:55:30.128 --> 00:55:34.891

is that her behavior is the

00:55:34.991 --> 00:55:37.192

same in both instances.

00:55:37.212 --> 00:55:38.633

Do you remember I told the

00:55:38.673 --> 00:55:40.674

story when I came on Mormon

00:55:40.694 --> 00:55:41.774

Stories the first time

00:55:41.894 --> 00:55:42.675

about living in the

00:55:42.695 --> 00:55:45.056

apartment with Lori and how

00:55:45.136 --> 00:55:46.657

she kicked me out, basically,

00:55:46.677 --> 00:55:48.378

because she didn't like me

00:55:48.418 --> 00:55:49.418

going on a date with a guy

00:55:49.438 --> 00:55:50.379

she didn't even care about.

00:55:50.916 --> 00:55:52.657

what she did was she saw a

00:55:52.717 --> 00:55:54.278

situation that she didn't like.

00:55:55.199 --> 00:55:57.481

She wanted to fix that

00:55:57.541 --> 00:55:58.662

situation by getting rid of

00:55:58.702 --> 00:56:00.904

the person who was causing the problem.

00:56:01.744 --> 00:56:02.845

And in the midst of this,

00:56:02.885 --> 00:56:03.646

she didn't want to be

00:56:03.706 --> 00:56:05.387

perceived as having done anything wrong.

00:56:05.907 --> 00:56:07.409

So what she did is she called her mom,

00:56:07.689 --> 00:56:08.850

told her mom some story

00:56:08.890 --> 00:56:09.910

about me being a terrible

00:56:09.991 --> 00:56:11.011

influence while she's just

00:56:11.051 --> 00:56:12.072

trying to live the gospel

00:56:12.112 --> 00:56:13.733

and I'm out drinking every weekend.

00:56:14.714 --> 00:56:16.976

Mom comes down, you know,

00:56:17.256 --> 00:56:18.617

gets me to pack up my stuff

00:56:18.637 --> 00:56:19.518

and leave the apartment.

00:56:20.808 --> 00:56:22.450

It's the same manipulation

00:56:22.470 --> 00:56:23.771

that she's engaging in here

00:56:23.791 --> 00:56:24.692

where she's convinced

00:56:24.732 --> 00:56:25.673

herself of a different

00:56:25.713 --> 00:56:27.094

narrative that gives her no

00:56:27.154 --> 00:56:28.575

responsibility whatsoever.

00:56:29.476 --> 00:56:30.417

And then she sort of

00:56:30.477 --> 00:56:31.218

manipulates the

00:56:31.258 --> 00:56:32.659

circumstances to try and

00:56:32.699 --> 00:56:33.720

put the narrative out there

00:56:33.740 --> 00:56:36.543

as often as she can to explain it away,

00:56:36.963 --> 00:56:37.283

you know,

00:56:37.363 --> 00:56:38.825

in order to get people to believe her.

00:56:39.986 --> 00:56:40.686

And that's, to me,

00:56:40.967 --> 00:56:41.908

what's stunning is that it

00:56:41.948 --> 00:56:44.430

doesn't matter whether it's a routine,

00:56:44.910 --> 00:56:46.592

you know, friendship

00:56:47.347 --> 00:56:48.927

relationship with a cousin,

00:56:49.968 --> 00:56:51.888

or it's the death of your own children.

00:56:51.948 --> 00:56:52.248

It's like,

00:56:52.268 --> 00:56:53.488

these are the tactics that we

00:56:53.628 --> 00:56:55.049

use in order to perpetuate

00:56:55.069 --> 00:56:56.069

our delusion so that we

00:56:56.089 --> 00:56:57.609

don't have to accept any

00:56:57.649 --> 00:56:59.530

responsibility for any of

00:56:59.690 --> 00:57:01.890

our own flaws or faults or

00:57:01.910 --> 00:57:03.230

weaknesses or contributions

00:57:03.250 --> 00:57:04.091

to the situation.

00:57:05.191 --> 00:57:06.131

Yeah.

00:57:06.211 --> 00:57:07.391

And I can see that.

00:57:08.491 --> 00:57:10.192

I guess I'm just, I'm thinking,

00:57:10.252 --> 00:57:10.812

and I don't mean to

00:57:10.852 --> 00:57:12.872

minimize the pain and

00:57:12.912 --> 00:57:13.913

distress I'm sure she

00:57:13.933 --> 00:57:15.653

caused you in that situation.

00:57:16.826 --> 00:57:17.907

But I can, you know,

00:57:17.927 --> 00:57:18.887

I think about like Eckhart

00:57:18.927 --> 00:57:22.589

Tolle's teaching around pain body and ego,

00:57:23.330 --> 00:57:24.971

that we can all have ego.

00:57:25.931 --> 00:57:28.633

We can all lose touch with our values,

00:57:28.693 --> 00:57:31.194

with our moral center.

00:57:32.075 --> 00:57:34.076

And we can all sometimes react out of,

00:57:34.576 --> 00:57:35.677

in our emotion brain,

00:57:35.697 --> 00:57:38.218

let's just say our amygdala, right?

00:57:38.779 --> 00:57:41.480

And we can all like act, you know,

00:57:41.500 --> 00:57:42.441

because I can think about it.

00:57:42.481 --> 00:57:44.142

Like if Margie and I, I'll just say,

00:57:44.302 --> 00:57:45.963

you know, my wife, if we're in a fight,

00:57:46.977 --> 00:57:49.177

And I really feel wronged or

00:57:50.378 --> 00:57:51.758

righteously indignant

00:57:51.798 --> 00:57:53.618

because I feel like I'm in the right.

00:57:54.278 --> 00:57:55.739

I can steal myself to her

00:57:55.779 --> 00:57:59.079

emotions for a time and I

00:57:59.119 --> 00:58:00.700

can like put on a tough

00:58:00.740 --> 00:58:03.240

face and be cold and

00:58:03.320 --> 00:58:05.661

indifferent for a time,

00:58:06.321 --> 00:58:07.661

but it's not more than like

00:58:07.721 --> 00:58:09.541

ten minutes and then she's

00:58:09.581 --> 00:58:12.062

sad and then I'm like, oh my gosh.

00:58:13.314 --> 00:58:14.514

I thought I was right.

00:58:14.574 --> 00:58:16.195

And now I'm just so sorry.

00:58:16.355 --> 00:58:18.196

And how do I make this better?

00:58:18.236 --> 00:58:19.296

And are you okay?

00:58:19.376 --> 00:58:20.676

Even if I'm the right, I'm like,

00:58:21.136 --> 00:58:22.937

let's figure out a way to make this work.

00:58:22.977 --> 00:58:24.598

Like I, you know,

00:58:24.738 --> 00:58:27.318

even if I have that unhealthy,

00:58:27.478 --> 00:58:29.319

egotistical, indifferent,

00:58:30.279 --> 00:58:32.740

narcissistic reaction, it, it,

00:58:32.900 --> 00:58:35.921

it does not withstand my

00:58:36.181 --> 00:58:38.202

exposure to prolonged anguish.

00:58:39.182 --> 00:58:40.082

So that's why I, I,

00:58:43.068 --> 00:58:43.989

But then if it's your own

00:58:44.049 --> 00:58:47.052

kids and it's murder and they're dead,

00:58:47.833 --> 00:58:49.094

like I would just think I

00:58:49.114 --> 00:58:49.975

wouldn't even be able to

00:58:50.035 --> 00:58:54.779

rise to any sort of tuning out my pain,

00:58:54.839 --> 00:58:57.261

my anguish, my own guilt.

00:58:58.022 --> 00:59:00.204

So I guess in my mind,

00:59:00.504 --> 00:59:02.946

the severity of what of the

00:59:03.006 --> 00:59:04.207

circumstances we're talking

00:59:04.247 --> 00:59:06.770

about with Lori are so high.

00:59:07.989 --> 00:59:09.030

That it's just hard for me

00:59:09.070 --> 00:59:10.611

to imagine someone capable

00:59:10.671 --> 00:59:12.453

of that level of

00:59:12.533 --> 00:59:14.955

indifference and deception

00:59:15.395 --> 00:59:17.998

and blame and all the

00:59:18.038 --> 00:59:22.121

elements of your beautiful acronym.

00:59:23.162 --> 00:59:25.024

It stretches the imagination.

00:59:25.924 --> 00:59:27.105

Yeah, it really does.

00:59:27.866 --> 00:59:29.808

What I have to remind myself too, though,

00:59:29.908 --> 00:59:32.470

is that leading up to these tragic events,

00:59:32.931 --> 00:59:35.693

Lori had spent kind of a lifetime...

00:59:37.352 --> 00:59:40.293

you know, treating Tylee in a certain way,

00:59:40.794 --> 00:59:41.754

you know, mothers who,

00:59:42.074 --> 00:59:43.655

who have these personality

00:59:43.695 --> 00:59:47.476

traits can't accept their child,

00:59:47.536 --> 00:59:48.737

especially their female

00:59:48.777 --> 00:59:50.037

child outshining them.

00:59:50.758 --> 00:59:51.738

And so there were lots of

00:59:51.778 --> 00:59:53.819

ways in which Lori kept Tylee small.

00:59:53.859 --> 00:59:56.060

She body shamed her, you know,

00:59:56.920 --> 00:59:57.961

we believe that she

00:59:58.021 --> 01:00:00.742

probably was making Tylee sick and,

01:00:01.682 --> 01:00:02.522

And that's why she was

01:00:02.562 --> 01:00:04.783

constantly in the hospital

01:00:04.843 --> 01:00:06.464

with symptoms of pancreatitis.

01:00:07.664 --> 01:00:10.245

And so and then once she and

01:00:10.285 --> 01:00:11.386

Chad got together,

01:00:11.826 --> 01:00:13.046

they both engaged in a

01:00:13.086 --> 01:00:15.287

campaign to dehumanize these children.

01:00:15.879 --> 01:00:17.199

and to dehumanize Charles

01:00:17.239 --> 01:00:19.220

and to dehumanize Tammy by

01:00:19.260 --> 01:00:20.480

saying they were possessed,

01:00:21.061 --> 01:00:22.421

they had these evil spirits.

01:00:22.481 --> 01:00:24.381

And so once you've engaged

01:00:24.421 --> 01:00:26.202

in that level of dehumanization,

01:00:26.262 --> 01:00:27.342

it makes it easier and

01:00:27.462 --> 01:00:29.563

easier to ignore the

01:00:29.643 --> 01:00:30.683

empathetic feelings that

01:00:30.703 --> 01:00:31.844

you're talking about, John,

01:00:32.284 --> 01:00:33.724

where most of us would feel

01:00:34.304 --> 01:00:36.745

compassion for suffering

01:00:37.205 --> 01:00:38.846

and they're just not capable of it.

01:00:38.906 --> 01:00:39.366

Or guilt.

01:00:40.326 --> 01:00:41.608

Right, right, right.

01:00:42.048 --> 01:00:42.769

Which is, you know,

01:00:43.029 --> 01:00:44.630

now if you take these

01:00:44.690 --> 01:00:46.432

personality traits and you

01:00:46.592 --> 01:00:49.015

add that sadistic feature

01:00:49.475 --> 01:00:50.296

where you enjoy the

01:00:50.336 --> 01:00:51.417

suffering of other people,

01:00:51.477 --> 01:00:53.559

that's where it strays into psychopathy.

01:00:53.579 --> 01:00:55.160

Yeah, for sure.

01:00:55.220 --> 01:00:56.422

And I think we saw that from

01:00:56.462 --> 01:01:00.986

both Ruby and Lori, certainly.

01:01:01.026 --> 01:01:02.647

Yeah.

01:01:02.707 --> 01:01:02.808

Yeah.

01:01:02.828 --> 01:01:03.248

And Jodi.

01:01:03.268 --> 01:01:03.969

And Jodi, exactly.

01:01:05.143 --> 01:01:05.623

Yeah.

01:01:05.683 --> 01:01:07.784

So I wanted to talk a little

01:01:07.804 --> 01:01:10.284

bit just about the idea of

01:01:10.344 --> 01:01:13.025

feeling above the law or feeling,

01:01:13.724 --> 01:01:16.265

entitled to a certain experience

01:01:16.305 --> 01:01:18.485

in life without having to

01:01:18.725 --> 01:01:20.026

go through some of the things that,

01:01:20.206 --> 01:01:20.866

you know, normal,

01:01:20.926 --> 01:01:23.007

ordinary human beings go through.

01:01:23.567 --> 01:01:25.807

That entitlement piece, I think,

01:01:25.947 --> 01:01:28.588

is what leans both of these

01:01:28.628 --> 01:01:30.129

women to believe that what

01:01:30.169 --> 01:01:31.149

they're doing is okay.

01:01:31.984 --> 01:01:32.724

and that they're never going

01:01:32.744 --> 01:01:33.525

to get caught.

01:01:34.926 --> 01:01:35.606

And I guess you could

01:01:35.646 --> 01:01:37.647

probably say that of a lot of criminals,

01:01:38.567 --> 01:01:41.609

but you know, that entitlement piece,

01:01:41.989 --> 01:01:43.290

I think about my growing up

01:01:43.330 --> 01:01:45.091

in Mormonism and how, you know,

01:01:45.111 --> 01:01:46.151

we've been talking a little

01:01:46.191 --> 01:01:47.352

bit about that arrogance,

01:01:47.392 --> 01:01:49.093

that specialness feeling.

01:01:49.893 --> 01:01:51.394

I'm wondering how much that

01:01:51.694 --> 01:01:54.795

leaned towards them feeling

01:01:54.916 --> 01:01:56.636

as though they,

01:01:56.676 --> 01:01:57.717

the rules didn't apply to them.

01:01:58.381 --> 01:02:01.202

So I think that there's also

01:02:01.902 --> 01:02:03.743

this idea in Mormonism that

01:02:03.763 --> 01:02:04.723

you and I have talked about

01:02:04.823 --> 01:02:07.565

where the family, my family specifically,

01:02:08.125 --> 01:02:09.926

portrays one, you know,

01:02:10.006 --> 01:02:11.566

set of behaviors in public

01:02:11.586 --> 01:02:12.387

and then in private,

01:02:12.390 --> 01:02:13.677

something completely different.

01:02:13.697 --> 01:02:13.877

You know,

01:02:13.897 --> 01:02:14.918

there's different rules for

01:02:14.978 --> 01:02:15.818

public and private.

01:02:16.338 --> 01:02:17.379

And I think when you grow up

01:02:17.459 --> 01:02:18.199

learning that,

01:02:19.509 --> 01:02:21.431

it definitely lends to this

01:02:21.531 --> 01:02:22.752

idea that i get to pick and

01:02:22.772 --> 01:02:23.793

choose which rules i'm

01:02:23.833 --> 01:02:26.075

going to follow do you feel

01:02:26.095 --> 01:02:27.436

like that that's prevalent

01:02:27.456 --> 01:02:30.238

in most mormon families i

01:02:30.278 --> 01:02:34.762

mean ironically i my family

01:02:34.802 --> 01:02:36.003

blew up when i was in

01:02:36.043 --> 01:02:37.905

middle school because my

01:02:37.945 --> 01:02:39.686

parents got divorced and uh

01:02:40.726 --> 01:02:41.947

It was kind of a bit of a

01:02:42.047 --> 01:02:43.207

public issue because there

01:02:43.227 --> 01:02:44.428

was a disciplinary council

01:02:45.508 --> 01:02:46.169

and we were kind of a

01:02:46.229 --> 01:02:47.349

prominent family in our

01:02:47.389 --> 01:02:49.610

stake or at least semi prominent.

01:02:49.650 --> 01:02:52.432

My dad was like on the stake

01:02:52.452 --> 01:02:53.172

stake presidency,

01:02:53.212 --> 01:02:54.393

stake high council kind of thing.

01:02:55.513 --> 01:02:55.773

Um,

01:02:56.954 --> 01:02:59.695

I'm really fortunate that we had a

01:02:59.755 --> 01:03:01.516

family that didn't try and hide.

01:03:03.616 --> 01:03:05.717

Our, our weaknesses or imperfections,

01:03:05.737 --> 01:03:06.577

and maybe that's just cause

01:03:06.617 --> 01:03:07.477

it all got blown up.

01:03:07.577 --> 01:03:09.998

So early on, early on for me,

01:03:10.578 --> 01:03:11.658

my older siblings were,

01:03:11.678 --> 01:03:12.478

were already out of the

01:03:12.518 --> 01:03:13.658

house when all this happened.

01:03:13.698 --> 01:03:14.819

But, but yeah,

01:03:14.879 --> 01:03:16.059

I think it's a classic

01:03:16.099 --> 01:03:17.919

hallmark of the average

01:03:17.979 --> 01:03:21.320

Mormon family to have perfect hair,

01:03:22.100 --> 01:03:24.021

you know, coiffed.

01:03:24.716 --> 01:03:27.980

You know, whatever ironed dresses and,

01:03:28.300 --> 01:03:30.383

and suits with ties and,

01:03:31.104 --> 01:03:32.565

and sitting all in a row on

01:03:32.605 --> 01:03:33.767

the pew on Sunday,

01:03:34.127 --> 01:03:35.349

you gotta look perfect.

01:03:35.369 --> 01:03:36.470

You gotta look like Donny

01:03:36.490 --> 01:03:38.773

Marie Osmond with the perfect smiles,

01:03:39.253 --> 01:03:40.815

perfect hair, perfect clothes,

01:03:41.376 --> 01:03:42.477

perfectly behaved.

01:03:43.383 --> 01:03:44.764

And, uh, you know,

01:03:44.824 --> 01:03:46.485

don't talk about your weaknesses,

01:03:47.005 --> 01:03:50.727

don't show imperfections, um, and keep,

01:03:51.387 --> 01:03:53.828

keep the dirty little secrets, uh,

01:03:53.868 --> 01:03:56.249

quiet and contained because

01:03:56.290 --> 01:03:57.690

it could affect your status.

01:03:58.311 --> 01:04:01.392

And I think that's for sure, uh,

01:04:01.632 --> 01:04:04.734

not a exclusively Mormon trait,

01:04:05.394 --> 01:04:06.515

but it's certainly one of

01:04:06.535 --> 01:04:08.336

the most toxic and

01:04:08.396 --> 01:04:11.077

pervasive Mormon family traits.

01:04:11.815 --> 01:04:13.516

that I think wreaks untold

01:04:14.137 --> 01:04:16.418

psychological and physical

01:04:16.459 --> 01:04:18.520

damage to the membership.

01:04:19.401 --> 01:04:19.681

Yeah,

01:04:19.821 --> 01:04:21.823

I agree that it's not uniquely Mormon.

01:04:22.243 --> 01:04:23.624

I do know lots of other

01:04:24.184 --> 01:04:25.445

religious families and

01:04:25.505 --> 01:04:26.686

families who are prominent

01:04:26.766 --> 01:04:28.728

in communities who do that.

01:04:28.788 --> 01:04:28.968

I mean,

01:04:28.988 --> 01:04:31.530

we've seen that on display with

01:04:32.030 --> 01:04:33.691

politicians' families and

01:04:33.732 --> 01:04:34.352

all of those kinds of

01:04:34.372 --> 01:04:36.313

things throughout our nation's history.

01:04:37.114 --> 01:04:39.595

but i think for me it's

01:04:39.635 --> 01:04:40.736

comforting for me to know

01:04:40.756 --> 01:04:41.676

that my family wasn't the

01:04:41.716 --> 01:04:42.817

only one that was like that

01:04:43.297 --> 01:04:44.978

but at the same time it

01:04:45.018 --> 01:04:46.058

makes me think well what

01:04:46.178 --> 01:04:47.359

are these other families

01:04:47.399 --> 01:04:48.980

hiding you know my my

01:04:49.020 --> 01:04:50.560

family was hiding deep dark

01:04:50.600 --> 01:04:52.261

secrets you know what else

01:04:52.301 --> 01:04:53.442

don't we know and i think

01:04:53.482 --> 01:04:54.422

this is one of the ways

01:04:54.482 --> 01:04:56.063

that that abuse gets

01:04:56.203 --> 01:04:57.364

perpetuated in the church

01:04:57.404 --> 01:04:59.185

as well is that there's a

01:04:59.225 --> 01:05:02.626

desire to cover up anything

01:05:02.646 --> 01:05:03.607

that makes the church look

01:05:03.627 --> 01:05:05.788

bad makes church leadership look bad

01:05:07.006 --> 01:05:09.328

And I think that has, I think you're right,

01:05:09.368 --> 01:05:10.769

a damaging psychological

01:05:10.809 --> 01:05:12.591

effect on the individual people,

01:05:12.631 --> 01:05:14.192

because at the very least,

01:05:14.632 --> 01:05:16.834

there's a cognitive dissonance about,

01:05:17.975 --> 01:05:18.295

you know,

01:05:18.876 --> 01:05:20.577

leadership hiding things and

01:05:20.597 --> 01:05:21.838

being dishonest about the

01:05:21.878 --> 01:05:23.179

reality of their lives.

01:05:24.200 --> 01:05:27.623

And, you know, the idea that that, man,

01:05:27.663 --> 01:05:28.783

we just we're trying so

01:05:28.823 --> 01:05:29.724

hard to be perfect,

01:05:29.784 --> 01:05:31.225

but it's pretty impossible

01:05:31.245 --> 01:05:33.367

to live up to all of those Mormon ideals,

01:05:33.968 --> 01:05:34.268

you know.

01:05:36.255 --> 01:05:37.596

Yeah, definitely.

01:05:39.337 --> 01:05:41.439

And I feel bad for parents

01:05:41.499 --> 01:05:42.620

and children caught up in

01:05:42.640 --> 01:05:44.221

that toxic cycle because

01:05:45.242 --> 01:05:48.144

not only is it toxic to

01:05:48.184 --> 01:05:49.325

your mental health and your

01:05:49.345 --> 01:05:50.146

physical health,

01:05:50.826 --> 01:05:54.409

it's a huge inhibition to just healthy,

01:05:54.449 --> 01:05:56.731

fulfilling, meaningful relationships.

01:05:56.811 --> 01:05:58.512

Because we all know from the

01:05:58.532 --> 01:05:59.673

work of Brene Brown that

01:06:00.345 --> 01:06:01.947

that vulnerability is sort of,

01:06:02.007 --> 01:06:03.089

I like to call it the

01:06:03.530 --> 01:06:04.932

gasoline in the engine of

01:06:05.513 --> 01:06:06.594

emotional intimacy.

01:06:07.375 --> 01:06:09.378

When you can say, I'm struggling,

01:06:09.438 --> 01:06:12.102

or I'm feeling sad, or I'm angry,

01:06:12.823 --> 01:06:13.564

and you can like...

01:06:14.443 --> 01:06:15.963

or you hurt me or whatever it is.

01:06:16.063 --> 01:06:16.363

Right.

01:06:17.304 --> 01:06:19.024

Um, or I'm sorry, I heard you,

01:06:19.404 --> 01:06:20.744

that type of vulnerability

01:06:21.285 --> 01:06:22.405

leads to deeper

01:06:22.485 --> 01:06:23.825

understandings and deeper

01:06:23.865 --> 01:06:25.926

connection and deeper relationships.

01:06:26.766 --> 01:06:30.146

And so aside from the toxicity, it just,

01:06:30.286 --> 01:06:30.947

uh, it, uh,

01:06:31.007 --> 01:06:33.047

malnourishes people from

01:06:33.107 --> 01:06:34.047

having the types of

01:06:34.107 --> 01:06:35.468

meaningful relationships

01:06:36.188 --> 01:06:37.908

that are really life giving

01:06:37.928 --> 01:06:38.788

and life sustaining.

01:06:38.808 --> 01:06:39.689

Yeah.

01:06:39.749 --> 01:06:40.249

Yeah.

01:06:40.709 --> 01:06:41.549

I agree with that.

01:06:41.569 --> 01:06:41.789

Totally.

01:06:42.828 --> 01:06:44.849

if we can't share our true

01:06:44.909 --> 01:06:46.170

selves with the people that

01:06:46.210 --> 01:06:47.651

we love and care about the most,

01:06:47.811 --> 01:06:49.392

then that connection really

01:06:49.432 --> 01:06:50.252

never deepens.

01:06:50.272 --> 01:06:55.815

Yeah, yeah.

01:06:55.835 --> 01:06:55.915

Well,

01:06:55.975 --> 01:07:00.638

so just to wrap up this idea of sense

01:07:00.678 --> 01:07:01.679

of superiority,

01:07:01.779 --> 01:07:03.059

I think both of these women

01:07:03.099 --> 01:07:04.140

claimed on multiple

01:07:04.160 --> 01:07:05.921

occasions that they were

01:07:06.301 --> 01:07:07.542

led by God or that they

01:07:07.582 --> 01:07:09.123

felt prompted or inspired.

01:07:09.873 --> 01:07:12.895

to do these behaviors, to act in this way.

01:07:13.776 --> 01:07:15.517

We know Lori had a special mission.

01:07:16.818 --> 01:07:19.179

Sherry says in her book that

01:07:19.279 --> 01:07:20.840

Jodi Hildebrandt believed

01:07:20.860 --> 01:07:22.782

that she was called by God,

01:07:22.822 --> 01:07:25.624

led by God to have this

01:07:25.664 --> 01:07:27.064

type of a therapy practice

01:07:27.084 --> 01:07:29.246

where she supposedly is integrating faith

01:07:29.944 --> 01:07:30.724

and therapy.

01:07:31.485 --> 01:07:32.885

I don't know necessarily

01:07:32.925 --> 01:07:35.666

that I have any instances

01:07:35.726 --> 01:07:37.307

where Ruby claimed that she

01:07:37.327 --> 01:07:38.967

was on a special mission from God,

01:07:39.567 --> 01:07:40.508

but I do know that the

01:07:40.548 --> 01:07:42.629

Brethren encouraged us back

01:07:42.649 --> 01:07:44.629

in the early two thousands, us women,

01:07:45.229 --> 01:07:46.830

to be a better example

01:07:46.970 --> 01:07:49.071

online of living righteous

01:07:49.111 --> 01:07:51.652

lives and encouraged us to

01:07:51.692 --> 01:07:53.472

do blogs and to get out

01:07:53.492 --> 01:07:54.673

there on the internet.

01:07:54.693 --> 01:07:55.493

Do you remember that, John?

01:07:55.513 --> 01:07:57.374

Yeah, absolutely.

01:07:57.414 --> 01:07:57.914

For sure.

01:07:58.690 --> 01:07:59.771

mean the church was super

01:07:59.851 --> 01:08:02.173

late to uh you know the

01:08:02.193 --> 01:08:04.654

internet but eventually

01:08:04.674 --> 01:08:06.545

they realized we gotta you

01:08:06.565 --> 01:08:07.825

gotta get our act together

01:08:08.386 --> 01:08:10.887

and so i i remember

01:08:10.947 --> 01:08:12.188

multiple times in the two

01:08:12.228 --> 01:08:13.629

thousands two thousand tens

01:08:13.649 --> 01:08:14.967

where the church would

01:08:15.147 --> 01:08:18.569

would um fly influencers to

01:08:18.609 --> 01:08:20.030

salt lake city and hold

01:08:20.978 --> 01:08:22.879

all-day roundtable meetings

01:08:22.959 --> 01:08:25.901

where they're not only learning from them,

01:08:26.341 --> 01:08:27.662

but then encouraging them

01:08:27.702 --> 01:08:30.703

and even paying them to do

01:08:30.763 --> 01:08:32.304

social media posts and

01:08:32.344 --> 01:08:35.646

engagements and activities

01:08:35.666 --> 01:08:36.827

that would benefit the church.

01:08:36.907 --> 01:08:37.867

Not to mention the whole I'm

01:08:37.887 --> 01:08:38.768

a Mormon campaign,

01:08:39.688 --> 01:08:41.929

where the church encouraged all members.

01:08:41.949 --> 01:08:43.410

They created a website,

01:08:43.830 --> 01:08:45.111

an entire infrastructure

01:08:46.632 --> 01:08:48.513

for Mormons to go on social

01:08:48.533 --> 01:08:49.233

media and bear their

01:08:49.273 --> 01:08:50.254

testimonies about the church.

01:08:50.784 --> 01:08:53.165

I don't, you know,

01:08:53.525 --> 01:08:54.786

ignore the fact that now

01:08:55.866 --> 01:08:57.207

it's considered a victory

01:08:57.227 --> 01:08:58.988

for Satan to even use the

01:08:59.068 --> 01:09:00.449

identity marker as Mormon.

01:09:01.109 --> 01:09:03.250

But just ten years ago,

01:09:03.730 --> 01:09:04.771

it was all the rage,

01:09:04.911 --> 01:09:06.371

and it was a billion-dollar,

01:09:06.792 --> 01:09:07.792

multi-billion-dollar

01:09:07.832 --> 01:09:09.673

initiative by the church to

01:09:09.713 --> 01:09:10.953

do whatever it could to

01:09:12.274 --> 01:09:13.915

bump out antagonistic

01:09:14.555 --> 01:09:16.276

voices on the Mormon

01:09:16.316 --> 01:09:17.977

internet and replace it with

01:09:21.074 --> 01:09:23.956

sort of good-looking, stylistic,

01:09:23.996 --> 01:09:27.038

glamorous mommy bloggers

01:09:27.298 --> 01:09:29.480

and mommy vloggers, right?

01:09:29.860 --> 01:09:30.801

Yes, exactly.

01:09:31.781 --> 01:09:33.683

Did you ever have an I'm a Mormon page,

01:09:33.703 --> 01:09:33.943

John?

01:09:33.963 --> 01:09:36.585

Did you put your testimony online?

01:09:36.625 --> 01:09:37.105

No,

01:09:37.245 --> 01:09:41.608

I was way past that point by the time

01:09:41.648 --> 01:09:42.609

that came out.

01:09:42.709 --> 01:09:43.490

I was still a member.

01:09:44.234 --> 01:09:45.674

Yeah, you were PMO though, right?

01:09:45.734 --> 01:09:46.554

Physically and mentally.

01:09:46.574 --> 01:09:46.874

Yeah,

01:09:46.894 --> 01:09:48.315

I was really struggling with the

01:09:48.335 --> 01:09:50.035

church's views on women,

01:09:50.695 --> 01:09:52.775

on people of color, on LGBT people.

01:09:54.976 --> 01:09:55.576

And I just, I,

01:09:56.836 --> 01:09:58.536

anytime I told people I was Mormon,

01:09:58.596 --> 01:09:59.257

I would always say I'm

01:09:59.317 --> 01:10:00.517

Mormon with an asterisk.

01:10:01.537 --> 01:10:03.937

And I would say, I'm not homophobic.

01:10:03.977 --> 01:10:04.777

I'm not racist.

01:10:04.817 --> 01:10:05.698

I'm not sexist.

01:10:06.518 --> 01:10:08.578

And the church embarrasses me in many ways,

01:10:08.678 --> 01:10:10.058

but I'm Mormon.

01:10:10.078 --> 01:10:12.339

I'm Mormon like a secular Jew is Jewish,

01:10:12.499 --> 01:10:12.739

you know?

01:10:14.186 --> 01:10:16.653

yeah yeah well i i

01:10:16.733 --> 01:10:18.494

definitely had my i'm a

01:10:18.554 --> 01:10:19.875

mormon page um it's

01:10:19.915 --> 01:10:20.976

probably still out there

01:10:21.457 --> 01:10:22.518

although did they did they

01:10:22.538 --> 01:10:23.539

take all that down in the

01:10:23.579 --> 01:10:25.160

wake of the victory for

01:10:25.220 --> 01:10:27.402

satan oh yeah that's all

01:10:27.762 --> 01:10:28.943

down the memory hole for

01:10:29.003 --> 01:10:32.506

sure yeah thank goodness

01:10:32.967 --> 01:10:34.248

yeah because because if we

01:10:34.268 --> 01:10:35.589

were to translate in modern

01:10:35.629 --> 01:10:37.631

parlance that campaign was

01:10:37.671 --> 01:10:39.052

called i'm a victory for satan

01:10:41.061 --> 01:10:41.942

That's right.

01:10:41.962 --> 01:10:43.704

Victory for Satan campaign.

01:10:43.744 --> 01:10:45.106

Just the very word of it.

01:10:45.186 --> 01:10:45.486

Right.

01:10:46.407 --> 01:10:47.008

Oh, goodness.

01:10:47.428 --> 01:10:47.569

Well,

01:10:47.609 --> 01:10:49.951

let's move on to the next topic that

01:10:50.032 --> 01:10:52.254

I have here, which is, you know,

01:10:52.795 --> 01:10:55.358

temptation and the devil, you know,

01:10:56.903 --> 01:10:57.964

In the Mormon Church,

01:10:58.044 --> 01:11:00.145

we're taught that Satan is

01:11:00.245 --> 01:11:01.826

always trying to tempt us

01:11:02.607 --> 01:11:04.228

and always trying to

01:11:05.569 --> 01:11:07.030

convince us to do something wrong.

01:11:07.130 --> 01:11:08.771

And I remember this little

01:11:08.811 --> 01:11:10.953

visual of one of the

01:11:10.993 --> 01:11:12.213

authorities at one point

01:11:12.253 --> 01:11:14.155

said that anytime you make a decision,

01:11:14.975 --> 01:11:16.396

Jesus is fighting for you

01:11:16.456 --> 01:11:17.937

and Satan is fighting against you.

01:11:17.977 --> 01:11:19.699

And who's going to win the war?

01:11:19.779 --> 01:11:21.220

Who are you going to allow to win the war?

01:11:22.300 --> 01:11:24.121

So there's this sort of

01:11:24.501 --> 01:11:25.961

abdication of some part of

01:11:26.041 --> 01:11:28.102

responsibility just because

01:11:28.142 --> 01:11:29.522

you know Satan is always

01:11:29.582 --> 01:11:30.783

trying to influence you.

01:11:30.863 --> 01:11:32.203

If you do something wrong,

01:11:32.783 --> 01:11:34.404

it's because Satan got a hold of you,

01:11:34.484 --> 01:11:34.704

right?

01:11:34.764 --> 01:11:36.444

If you break your covenants in the temple,

01:11:36.484 --> 01:11:38.285

you're going to be in Satan's power.

01:11:39.125 --> 01:11:42.546

And so I don't know how much

01:11:43.946 --> 01:11:46.387

Laurie and Ruby would...

01:11:47.732 --> 01:11:50.023

identify with blaming the devil,

01:11:50.385 --> 01:11:52.134

the devil made me do it kind of idea.

01:11:53.044 --> 01:11:54.464

However,

01:11:54.604 --> 01:11:56.625

both women seem to blame

01:11:56.705 --> 01:11:59.166

supernatural forces for

01:11:59.266 --> 01:12:00.966

some of their actions, at least,

01:12:01.366 --> 01:12:02.807

rather than themselves.

01:12:03.487 --> 01:12:06.028

I know that Ruby claimed

01:12:06.088 --> 01:12:07.748

that her children were evil

01:12:08.188 --> 01:12:09.669

and Laurie the same,

01:12:09.709 --> 01:12:11.029

that her children were dark.

01:12:11.769 --> 01:12:14.470

And so rather than saying,

01:12:15.491 --> 01:12:17.131

maybe I need to dig into

01:12:17.151 --> 01:12:18.491

this as a parent and figure

01:12:18.531 --> 01:12:20.012

out what's going on with my kid,

01:12:21.122 --> 01:12:22.323

um blaming the fact that

01:12:22.343 --> 01:12:23.143

they were that they were

01:12:23.183 --> 01:12:25.004

possessed i don't know what

01:12:25.024 --> 01:12:25.744

do you think about that

01:12:25.784 --> 01:12:31.107

john yeah i'm i think i was

01:12:31.167 --> 01:12:34.008

trying to think of like top

01:12:34.048 --> 01:12:36.129

five or top ten reasons why

01:12:36.689 --> 01:12:37.970

mormon true crime keeps

01:12:38.010 --> 01:12:41.331

happening and uh i think

01:12:41.371 --> 01:12:42.832

this i think this uh

01:12:42.892 --> 01:12:44.453

teaching of demonic possession

01:12:45.413 --> 01:12:47.656

It's got to be in the top five.

01:12:49.319 --> 01:12:52.604

And the problem is it starts with Jesus.

01:12:53.786 --> 01:12:57.812

Jesus is the one that casts

01:12:57.872 --> 01:12:59.274

the evil spirits out of the

01:12:59.314 --> 01:13:00.255

man into the pig.

01:13:01.044 --> 01:13:02.825

And then the pigs and the pigs run off the,

01:13:03.025 --> 01:13:05.387

you know, run off the mountainside.

01:13:06.067 --> 01:13:08.268

Like, how do you, you know,

01:13:08.689 --> 01:13:09.749

given that most of the

01:13:10.029 --> 01:13:12.331

America's super Christian,

01:13:13.131 --> 01:13:14.112

how are you going to trash

01:13:14.132 --> 01:13:15.373

Jesus's own teaching?

01:13:15.413 --> 01:13:16.673

So, of course, the Mormon church,

01:13:17.154 --> 01:13:18.394

especially now that it's

01:13:18.975 --> 01:13:20.996

more Jesus focused than it's ever been.

01:13:22.777 --> 01:13:23.337

What are you going to do

01:13:23.357 --> 01:13:25.018

with that teaching of demonic possession?

01:13:25.038 --> 01:13:25.819

You're stuck with it.

01:13:27.146 --> 01:13:28.146

So, yeah,

01:13:28.206 --> 01:13:29.027

I think it's one of the most

01:13:29.067 --> 01:13:29.888

harmful teachings.

01:13:29.908 --> 01:13:33.090

And of course, whether it's Tim Ballard,

01:13:33.891 --> 01:13:37.154

Ruby Frankie, Jody Hildebrand, Lori,

01:13:37.614 --> 01:13:41.657

you know, Lori and, and, you know, Chad,

01:13:42.057 --> 01:13:43.879

it's just how much havoc

01:13:43.899 --> 01:13:45.320

does that teaching need to wreak?

01:13:46.561 --> 01:13:48.783

Visions of Glory, Tom Harrison, like,

01:13:48.843 --> 01:13:50.884

it's just, it's everywhere.

01:13:52.205 --> 01:13:52.366

Yeah.

01:13:52.406 --> 01:13:53.747

We need to like, like,

01:13:54.688 --> 01:13:55.149

Okay,

01:13:55.169 --> 01:13:56.069

if the church wants to fight

01:13:56.110 --> 01:13:59.233

transgender people or feminists or,

01:13:59.473 --> 01:14:01.795

you know, people who love history,

01:14:02.056 --> 01:14:02.556

go for it.

01:14:02.616 --> 01:14:03.657

But while you're at it,

01:14:04.098 --> 01:14:05.039

fight people that believe

01:14:05.119 --> 01:14:06.240

in demonic possession

01:14:06.260 --> 01:14:07.641

because it's literally

01:14:07.701 --> 01:14:09.023

killing way too many

01:14:09.083 --> 01:14:10.644

dentists and orthodontist

01:14:10.704 --> 01:14:14.348

wives in Mormon land, you know?

01:14:14.824 --> 01:14:15.584

Yeah, yeah.

01:14:15.644 --> 01:14:16.725

Somebody was asking me the

01:14:16.765 --> 01:14:17.785

other day if there's an

01:14:17.885 --> 01:14:20.467

uptick in Mormon crime or

01:14:20.527 --> 01:14:22.428

if it's just an uptick in

01:14:23.208 --> 01:14:24.709

society recognizing it.

01:14:25.329 --> 01:14:28.590

And I do think things like

01:14:28.630 --> 01:14:31.092

the Mark Hoffman documentary on Netflix

01:14:32.152 --> 01:14:35.055

and the secret lives of

01:14:35.095 --> 01:14:36.216

mormon wives you know

01:14:36.617 --> 01:14:38.538

making mormonism more

01:14:38.619 --> 01:14:40.701

culturally interesting i

01:14:40.741 --> 01:14:42.022

think certainly that calls

01:14:42.062 --> 01:14:44.064

attention to the crimes

01:14:44.124 --> 01:14:45.385

maybe perhaps more than

01:14:45.705 --> 01:14:47.047

than others they would not

01:14:47.087 --> 01:14:48.128

point out the religion of

01:14:48.188 --> 01:14:49.529

someone else for example

01:14:49.569 --> 01:14:51.091

but i don't i don't know if

01:14:51.132 --> 01:14:53.354

there's a an increase in the

01:14:54.442 --> 01:14:55.603

commonality of mormons

01:14:55.643 --> 01:14:57.284

committing crimes or if

01:14:57.664 --> 01:14:58.705

it's just that we're you

01:14:58.725 --> 01:14:59.826

know calling more attention

01:14:59.866 --> 01:15:01.947

to it but there definitely

01:15:02.027 --> 01:15:03.829

seems to be behind each one

01:15:03.869 --> 01:15:06.070

of these crimes some

01:15:06.291 --> 01:15:08.012

distorted thinking that has

01:15:08.052 --> 01:15:09.353

to that can be drawn

01:15:09.393 --> 01:15:11.634

directly back to if not the

01:15:11.654 --> 01:15:14.997

doctrine itself a a

01:15:15.037 --> 01:15:16.418

distortion of the doctrine

01:15:16.558 --> 01:15:17.919

an expansion of the doctrine

01:15:19.386 --> 01:15:21.727

And to me, this is where the church,

01:15:21.827 --> 01:15:22.127

I think,

01:15:22.207 --> 01:15:25.809

actually is complicit in crimes

01:15:26.509 --> 01:15:27.870

because we talk about these

01:15:27.910 --> 01:15:31.051

traits of narcissism like grandiosity,

01:15:31.391 --> 01:15:32.731

right?

01:15:32.932 --> 01:15:35.533

And if you think about it,

01:15:36.453 --> 01:15:37.553

once you're taught that

01:15:37.593 --> 01:15:40.635

your feelings are God

01:15:41.215 --> 01:15:42.415

communicating to you

01:15:42.435 --> 01:15:43.516

through the Holy Ghost,

01:15:43.576 --> 01:15:44.816

and that's literally every

01:15:44.876 --> 01:15:46.517

Mormon from the time

01:15:46.537 --> 01:15:48.318

they're zero years old,

01:15:49.140 --> 01:15:50.421

They're taught that God

01:15:50.461 --> 01:15:53.242

communicates to you through

01:15:53.262 --> 01:15:55.903

your feelings via the Holy Ghost.

01:15:56.603 --> 01:15:58.644

And they're taught the story of Nephi,

01:15:59.244 --> 01:16:01.145

that God, you know,

01:16:01.185 --> 01:16:02.546

communicated with Nephi

01:16:02.606 --> 01:16:04.227

through his feelings and

01:16:04.267 --> 01:16:06.207

told him to chop off the head of,

01:16:07.028 --> 01:16:10.029

you know, his drunk, passed out adversary,

01:16:10.109 --> 01:16:10.549

Laban.

01:16:11.350 --> 01:16:13.811

Like once those stories sink in,

01:16:15.492 --> 01:16:18.273

and once that theology sinks in,

01:16:19.243 --> 01:16:25.365

then you don't have to be a

01:16:25.425 --> 01:16:27.445

narcissist to start

01:16:27.985 --> 01:16:29.986

believing and acting like a narcissist.

01:16:30.026 --> 01:16:31.827

Because once you believe

01:16:32.287 --> 01:16:33.467

that your feelings and

01:16:33.507 --> 01:16:36.468

thoughts come from God, then...

01:16:38.621 --> 01:16:39.782

you've got license.

01:16:40.402 --> 01:16:41.622

You've got license to

01:16:41.722 --> 01:16:42.983

literally do whatever you

01:16:43.023 --> 01:16:45.643

want because God is

01:16:46.164 --> 01:16:48.364

commanding you through the

01:16:48.404 --> 01:16:50.185

Holy Ghost to your feelings.

01:16:51.085 --> 01:16:53.846

And I am very convinced that

01:16:53.886 --> 01:16:55.667

if the church stopped

01:16:55.707 --> 01:16:57.527

teaching that we could

01:16:57.567 --> 01:17:01.789

discern God's will by what we feel.

01:17:02.249 --> 01:17:06.190

But we even talk about like,

01:17:07.559 --> 01:17:09.500

talk about audaciousness or

01:17:09.560 --> 01:17:11.441

grandiosity to think that

01:17:11.561 --> 01:17:14.523

any mortal human could know

01:17:14.563 --> 01:17:16.905

the mind and will of God at any moment,

01:17:17.725 --> 01:17:18.505

at any moment.

01:17:18.966 --> 01:17:21.968

That in and of itself is grandiosity.

01:17:23.108 --> 01:17:25.870

But once you've absorbed that,

01:17:27.451 --> 01:17:29.612

then anything goes and God

01:17:29.672 --> 01:17:31.553

approves it and God likes

01:17:31.633 --> 01:17:33.414

it and God wants it.

01:17:34.055 --> 01:17:35.776

And so I really can see...

01:17:37.232 --> 01:17:37.852

You know,

01:17:37.872 --> 01:17:39.173

that's why I wonder whether it

01:17:39.213 --> 01:17:42.415

takes harmful religious

01:17:42.475 --> 01:17:44.916

theology or doctrine to

01:17:44.996 --> 01:17:46.817

create a Lori Vallow.

01:17:47.578 --> 01:17:49.619

Because if she really

01:17:49.719 --> 01:17:51.220

started believing that her

01:17:51.260 --> 01:17:53.401

thoughts and feelings were from God,

01:17:53.441 --> 01:17:54.741

it's almost like creating

01:17:55.262 --> 01:17:57.003

schizophrenia where you

01:17:57.023 --> 01:17:59.344

believe in the delusions.

01:17:59.784 --> 01:18:01.465

And if she believes that God

01:18:01.505 --> 01:18:03.306

wanted—that God declared

01:18:03.366 --> 01:18:04.467

her kids zombies—

01:18:05.267 --> 01:18:08.191

or that God declared Tammy a zombie,

01:18:08.592 --> 01:18:10.495

or that God needed her

01:18:10.575 --> 01:18:13.239

children or Tammy on the other side,

01:18:14.501 --> 01:18:16.043

then she's just obeying God.

01:18:16.083 --> 01:18:17.285

She's not a murderer.

01:18:18.086 --> 01:18:19.868

She's an obedient, righteous woman.

01:18:20.799 --> 01:18:23.200

daughter of of god how dark

01:18:23.220 --> 01:18:25.361

is that yeah super super

01:18:25.401 --> 01:18:28.041

dark and i mean you know so

01:18:28.482 --> 01:18:30.042

follow me down this this

01:18:30.082 --> 01:18:31.222

line of thinking right

01:18:31.903 --> 01:18:33.223

narcissistic traits are

01:18:33.263 --> 01:18:35.184

developed by an individual

01:18:36.402 --> 01:18:38.563

as a mask for shame and insecurity,

01:18:39.023 --> 01:18:41.324

as an avoidance of shame and insecurity.

01:18:41.985 --> 01:18:43.505

And if all the church does

01:18:43.705 --> 01:18:45.486

is shame us for who we

01:18:45.546 --> 01:18:47.307

naturally are as human beings,

01:18:47.767 --> 01:18:49.328

for having sexual thoughts

01:18:49.348 --> 01:18:51.789

and feelings prior to marriage, you know,

01:18:52.750 --> 01:18:54.270

just for being a human being.

01:18:54.591 --> 01:18:57.792

Getting divorced, being a single mom,

01:18:58.032 --> 01:19:00.954

having multiple divorces, right?

01:19:01.554 --> 01:19:01.834

Right.

01:19:02.214 --> 01:19:03.495

Never feeling good enough.

01:19:03.555 --> 01:19:03.655

Right.

01:19:04.374 --> 01:19:07.818

right sexual shame we can

01:19:07.878 --> 01:19:09.299

never check all of the

01:19:09.339 --> 01:19:10.801

boxes we never can because

01:19:10.961 --> 01:19:12.162

the list is too long and

01:19:12.202 --> 01:19:14.004

we're too human to be able

01:19:14.024 --> 01:19:15.285

to do it so the church

01:19:15.305 --> 01:19:17.147

fills us with shame and

01:19:17.187 --> 01:19:18.729

then some people who don't

01:19:18.769 --> 01:19:20.090

know how to process or deal

01:19:20.130 --> 01:19:22.012

with that shame will

01:19:22.052 --> 01:19:24.054

develop these types of

01:19:24.695 --> 01:19:26.337

shame avoidance techniques

01:19:27.411 --> 01:19:29.152

in order to avoid feeling

01:19:29.192 --> 01:19:30.412

that pain all the time.

01:19:31.033 --> 01:19:32.133

So for example,

01:19:32.333 --> 01:19:33.634

the only reason that people

01:19:33.674 --> 01:19:34.514

are not the only reason,

01:19:34.534 --> 01:19:35.355

but one of the reasons

01:19:35.415 --> 01:19:38.876

people manipulate others is

01:19:38.956 --> 01:19:40.117

because they don't believe

01:19:40.157 --> 01:19:41.738

that they really could get

01:19:41.778 --> 01:19:43.358

what they want or meet their own needs,

01:19:43.518 --> 01:19:43.779

right?

01:19:44.339 --> 01:19:46.760

And so if I'm somebody who's

01:19:46.840 --> 01:19:47.900

coming up in the church,

01:19:48.081 --> 01:19:49.441

I've been filled with shame

01:19:49.541 --> 01:19:50.342

and I don't know how to

01:19:50.382 --> 01:19:52.903

process my emotions or how

01:19:52.943 --> 01:19:55.564

to self-validate or how to self-soothe,

01:19:56.857 --> 01:19:57.758

because I've been taught

01:19:57.778 --> 01:19:58.778

that the church is the only

01:19:58.898 --> 01:20:00.660

one that can provide that for me.

01:20:01.420 --> 01:20:04.763

I have to look to Jesus to heal my wounds.

01:20:05.363 --> 01:20:06.884

I have to give my burdens to him.

01:20:07.144 --> 01:20:08.766

There's nothing I can do on my own.

01:20:09.486 --> 01:20:10.507

And so, you know,

01:20:10.587 --> 01:20:11.468

it's reasonable to

01:20:11.528 --> 01:20:13.009

understand how lots of

01:20:13.069 --> 01:20:14.430

people develop these types

01:20:14.530 --> 01:20:16.498

of tactics and traits for

01:20:16.558 --> 01:20:18.940

shame avoidance in high demand religion.

01:20:20.580 --> 01:20:21.480

Yeah,

01:20:21.580 --> 01:20:22.921

and of course I'm hearing the

01:20:23.061 --> 01:20:24.361

apologists scream and say

01:20:24.401 --> 01:20:25.601

you can't blame the church

01:20:26.201 --> 01:20:27.522

for creating murders.

01:20:27.542 --> 01:20:29.902

There's X million Mormons

01:20:29.942 --> 01:20:31.322

that don't murder their kids,

01:20:31.362 --> 01:20:32.223

and that's all true.

01:20:34.283 --> 01:20:36.944

I'm not saying that the

01:20:36.984 --> 01:20:38.184

Mormon church is to blame

01:20:38.204 --> 01:20:40.944

for Laurie and Chad's murders per se,

01:20:41.845 --> 01:20:42.525

but I think there's an

01:20:42.605 --> 01:20:43.625

argument to say that Mormon

01:20:43.645 --> 01:20:45.325

doctrine and theology are

01:20:45.365 --> 01:20:47.846

complicit in contributing to

01:20:48.887 --> 01:20:50.834

Those murders and to Ruby.

01:20:51.794 --> 01:20:52.995

and Jody's behavior.

01:20:53.075 --> 01:20:54.956

Because if we want to switch

01:20:54.976 --> 01:20:57.837

it to Jody and Ruby, again, sexual shame,

01:20:57.897 --> 01:20:58.618

inadequacy,

01:20:59.078 --> 01:21:01.059

two women beat down and

01:21:01.099 --> 01:21:02.820

devalued by a patriarchy,

01:21:03.480 --> 01:21:05.261

just groveling for some

01:21:05.321 --> 01:21:07.362

type of status or legitimacy.

01:21:08.203 --> 01:21:09.263

And then they find this

01:21:09.303 --> 01:21:11.504

vulnerability of male sexual shame,

01:21:12.305 --> 01:21:13.826

and they're able to gain

01:21:13.866 --> 01:21:16.287

power by developing this

01:21:16.807 --> 01:21:18.208

horrific business model,

01:21:18.668 --> 01:21:19.709

almost as sort of a

01:21:20.904 --> 01:21:22.045

as sort of a Mormon

01:21:23.286 --> 01:21:25.908

quasi-feminist retribution

01:21:26.529 --> 01:21:27.950

where they can gain their power,

01:21:28.350 --> 01:21:30.952

punish men, up-power themselves,

01:21:31.012 --> 01:21:32.073

down-power the men,

01:21:32.854 --> 01:21:33.895

and do it all in the name

01:21:33.935 --> 01:21:39.719

of God and Jesus and moral purity, right?

01:21:40.860 --> 01:21:42.342

I'm very convinced that Jodi

01:21:42.382 --> 01:21:43.482

and Ruby believed

01:21:44.260 --> 01:21:45.461

that they were the only ones

01:21:45.481 --> 01:21:47.542

that could cure the sins of

01:21:47.602 --> 01:21:49.404

masturbation or pornography

01:21:49.484 --> 01:21:51.445

or infidelity or whatever.

01:21:51.485 --> 01:21:51.565

Yeah.

01:21:52.766 --> 01:21:54.807

But that it took the type of

01:21:54.867 --> 01:21:58.189

tough love that Nephi, you know,

01:21:58.230 --> 01:22:01.111

wielded upon Laban or that the Israelites,

01:22:01.151 --> 01:22:01.872

that God told the

01:22:01.932 --> 01:22:04.234

Israelites to wield upon

01:22:04.294 --> 01:22:05.575

the Canaanites or whoever

01:22:05.595 --> 01:22:07.336

they committed genocide

01:22:07.376 --> 01:22:08.697

upon in the Old Testament.

01:22:08.737 --> 01:22:12.139

Like, harsh sins require harsh measures.

01:22:12.940 --> 01:22:13.240

And if...

01:22:14.126 --> 01:22:14.446

You know,

01:22:14.507 --> 01:22:17.830

if Ruby's kids just failed to

01:22:18.371 --> 01:22:20.894

where much was given, much was required,

01:22:21.355 --> 01:22:23.157

and if they failed to comply,

01:22:23.758 --> 01:22:25.460

then you just ratchet up

01:22:25.520 --> 01:22:29.965

the punishment because God, you know,

01:22:29.985 --> 01:22:31.967

was communicating to Jody and Ruby,

01:22:32.835 --> 01:22:36.397

what the pure form of child discipline was,

01:22:36.477 --> 01:22:36.698

right?

01:22:36.738 --> 01:22:37.958

Yes, exactly.

01:22:38.319 --> 01:22:38.819

Exactly.

01:22:38.899 --> 01:22:40.120

And that brings us to this

01:22:40.180 --> 01:22:41.861

lawsuit that was recently

01:22:41.921 --> 01:22:43.622

filed against Ruby, or sorry,

01:22:43.642 --> 01:22:44.943

against Jody and Ruby

01:22:45.043 --> 01:22:45.804

against Connections.

01:22:45.824 --> 01:22:46.624

There are several people

01:22:46.664 --> 01:22:48.265

named as defendants.

01:22:48.806 --> 01:22:50.367

But one of the things that

01:22:50.447 --> 01:22:51.768

is listed in the lawsuit

01:22:51.928 --> 01:22:53.109

are a couple of excerpts

01:22:53.149 --> 01:22:54.289

from Ruby's journals.

01:22:54.329 --> 01:22:55.990

And I know those exist in other places,

01:22:56.011 --> 01:22:56.651

but it's just kind of

01:22:56.691 --> 01:22:57.672

convenient to have it all

01:22:57.692 --> 01:22:58.532

here in the lawsuit.

01:22:59.093 --> 01:23:00.013

So I want to share this

01:23:00.053 --> 01:23:01.294

really quick as well.

01:23:01.674 --> 01:23:02.580

This is from

01:23:03.119 --> 01:23:05.120

page twenty five of the

01:23:05.140 --> 01:23:07.001

lawsuit number one hundred and seven.

01:23:07.561 --> 01:23:08.682

It says Frankie's journal

01:23:08.762 --> 01:23:09.982

entries reveal that this

01:23:10.022 --> 01:23:10.823

horrendous criminal

01:23:10.863 --> 01:23:12.163

behavior was not separated

01:23:12.183 --> 01:23:12.864

from Hildebrandt's

01:23:12.904 --> 01:23:14.444

teachings and the enterprise.

01:23:14.484 --> 01:23:15.245

But in reality,

01:23:15.285 --> 01:23:16.645

Hildebrandt's methodology

01:23:17.166 --> 01:23:18.306

implemented to the highest

01:23:18.346 --> 01:23:19.307

degree possible.

01:23:20.107 --> 01:23:21.188

And so it says, hey,

01:23:21.228 --> 01:23:23.329

these are Ruby's journal entries.

01:23:23.469 --> 01:23:25.990

If victim one was to emulate the savior,

01:23:26.090 --> 01:23:27.010

he needs to be one hundred

01:23:27.030 --> 01:23:28.851

percent obedient with exactness.

01:23:29.011 --> 01:23:30.632

No wavering, no hiding.

01:23:31.107 --> 01:23:33.129

B, I told victim one he needs God.

01:23:33.249 --> 01:23:34.830

I invited him to fast and pray.

01:23:35.150 --> 01:23:35.430

01:23:35.490 --> 01:23:37.332

the devil doesn't like when you get your

01:23:37.392 --> 01:23:38.933

subject to agree to truth,

01:23:39.293 --> 01:23:40.895

which was their version of reality.

01:23:41.615 --> 01:23:44.437

Truth is their word for reality,

01:23:44.597 --> 01:23:45.138

basically.

01:23:45.508 --> 01:23:46.709

And then I just want to skip

01:23:46.749 --> 01:23:47.930

down here a little bit to

01:23:47.970 --> 01:23:49.411

the part that is relevant

01:23:49.431 --> 01:23:50.231

to our discussion.

01:23:50.271 --> 01:23:50.872

Letter F,

01:23:51.292 --> 01:23:53.494

boundaries will show you how much

01:23:53.554 --> 01:23:55.535

demonic possession a soul has.

01:23:55.716 --> 01:23:56.736

The more boundaries,

01:23:56.876 --> 01:23:58.818

the more the soul will reveal itself.

01:23:59.391 --> 01:24:01.152

So they believed in, you know,

01:24:01.212 --> 01:24:01.813

putting all these

01:24:01.833 --> 01:24:03.514

boundaries up for their kids,

01:24:04.434 --> 01:24:06.976

knowing that the stricter they were,

01:24:07.796 --> 01:24:08.837

the more the kids would

01:24:08.877 --> 01:24:10.218

reveal how much demonic

01:24:10.258 --> 01:24:11.179

possession they had.

01:24:11.979 --> 01:24:13.180

And then if we want to skip

01:24:13.220 --> 01:24:17.222

down to letter P it says

01:24:17.282 --> 01:24:18.463

the world we live in today

01:24:18.483 --> 01:24:19.844

does not support children

01:24:19.884 --> 01:24:21.565

being uncomfortable, for example,

01:24:21.645 --> 01:24:22.266

in pain.

01:24:22.746 --> 01:24:24.907

And so children are comforted, entertained,

01:24:25.047 --> 01:24:26.528

distracted from the need to

01:24:26.568 --> 01:24:27.589

confess and change.

01:24:28.284 --> 01:24:29.945

stripping down a child's

01:24:29.985 --> 01:24:31.186

world to the basics of

01:24:31.246 --> 01:24:32.927

beans and rice and hard

01:24:32.967 --> 01:24:34.007

work would be considered

01:24:34.127 --> 01:24:38.210

abuse but and yet that's

01:24:38.270 --> 01:24:39.671

exactly what she was doing

01:24:39.891 --> 01:24:41.132

and so the next one says

01:24:42.172 --> 01:24:43.053

it's been three months of

01:24:43.093 --> 01:24:44.554

consistent boundaries and

01:24:44.594 --> 01:24:45.334

putting up with his

01:24:45.374 --> 01:24:46.715

terrorizing she's talking

01:24:46.755 --> 01:24:48.016

about the child terrorizing

01:24:48.116 --> 01:24:51.358

her to get victim one's confessions out

01:24:52.320 --> 01:24:53.961

Who would do this in a real world?

01:24:54.101 --> 01:24:55.202

I don't know of anyone who

01:24:55.222 --> 01:24:57.303

would feed their kid in America, beans,

01:24:57.423 --> 01:24:58.304

lentils, rice,

01:24:58.464 --> 01:24:59.324

and chicken for three

01:24:59.345 --> 01:25:00.525

months straight and refuse

01:25:00.605 --> 01:25:01.586

all distractions.

01:25:02.006 --> 01:25:03.107

And this is why Americans

01:25:03.127 --> 01:25:04.928

are so full of sin and are

01:25:04.968 --> 01:25:06.169

ready for destruction.

01:25:06.629 --> 01:25:07.750

So she's basically

01:25:07.870 --> 01:25:09.371

intimating here that only

01:25:09.431 --> 01:25:12.033

she and Jodi have the

01:25:12.073 --> 01:25:13.754

solution for how to

01:25:13.814 --> 01:25:15.615

properly discipline a child.

01:25:16.711 --> 01:25:18.534

And that it's necessary for

01:25:18.554 --> 01:25:19.936

them to go through this

01:25:20.216 --> 01:25:21.899

painful process and

01:25:21.939 --> 01:25:23.581

basically torture and abuse

01:25:24.142 --> 01:25:25.364

in order for the child to

01:25:25.424 --> 01:25:27.828

confess their sins.

01:25:29.226 --> 01:25:30.327

we're talking about minor

01:25:30.347 --> 01:25:31.368

children here we're not

01:25:31.408 --> 01:25:33.949

talking about teenagers you

01:25:33.969 --> 01:25:35.591

know even there were you

01:25:35.611 --> 01:25:36.691

know ten and eight i

01:25:36.731 --> 01:25:38.493

believe at the time they

01:25:38.513 --> 01:25:41.735

finally escaped um yeah so

01:25:42.556 --> 01:25:43.356

you know back to that

01:25:43.396 --> 01:25:44.977

demonic possession piece

01:25:45.518 --> 01:25:49.841

you know back to the the idea that um

01:25:51.415 --> 01:25:51.635

you know,

01:25:52.015 --> 01:25:53.816

that there's some unseen force

01:25:53.896 --> 01:25:55.277

affecting the children and

01:25:55.317 --> 01:25:56.537

that this harsh treatment

01:25:56.557 --> 01:25:58.438

of them is the only way to

01:25:58.478 --> 01:26:00.739

get them away from that unseen force.

01:26:01.699 --> 01:26:03.120

And that brings us all the

01:26:03.160 --> 01:26:06.359

way around to Visions of Glory.

01:26:06.359 --> 01:26:07.365

me pull it out.

01:26:07.425 --> 01:26:08.166

There it is.

01:26:09.006 --> 01:26:11.127

Visions of Glory by Tom Harrison,

01:26:11.707 --> 01:26:13.368

otherwise known as John Pontius.

01:26:14.780 --> 01:26:17.022

Yeah, so John Pontius was the author,

01:26:17.062 --> 01:26:18.883

but he was the as told to

01:26:19.023 --> 01:26:20.744

and Spencer in Visions of Glory,

01:26:20.764 --> 01:26:22.045

we know as Tom Harrison,

01:26:22.625 --> 01:26:24.126

who we know worked with

01:26:24.186 --> 01:26:27.449

Jodi in coming up with the

01:26:27.529 --> 01:26:28.849

Eternal Core Conference,

01:26:28.869 --> 01:26:30.370

which was a way of marrying

01:26:30.431 --> 01:26:32.192

therapy and religion.

01:26:32.972 --> 01:26:34.733

And we know how harmful Tom

01:26:34.773 --> 01:26:38.656

Harrison's influence was on Chad Daybell.

01:26:39.597 --> 01:26:41.478

And we've been down that

01:26:41.518 --> 01:26:44.040

rabbit hole a couple of times for hours.

01:26:45.129 --> 01:26:47.712

But it keeps coming up over and over.

01:26:48.072 --> 01:26:48.873

And it's mentioned in

01:26:48.913 --> 01:26:53.458

Sherry's book that Jodi and

01:26:53.479 --> 01:26:54.900

Ruby absolutely believed

01:26:54.940 --> 01:26:56.922

what was being taught in

01:26:56.962 --> 01:26:57.944

Visions of Glory.

01:26:58.825 --> 01:26:59.826

And it was sort of this

01:26:59.926 --> 01:27:02.268

hyper focus on the end times,

01:27:02.309 --> 01:27:05.913

on doomsday prepping that made me wonder.

01:27:07.385 --> 01:27:11.148

whether or not Ruby and Lori

01:27:11.248 --> 01:27:12.429

to some degree might have

01:27:12.789 --> 01:27:13.890

suffered from religious

01:27:13.930 --> 01:27:15.912

scrupulosity because that

01:27:15.992 --> 01:27:17.653

hyper-focus tended to take

01:27:17.693 --> 01:27:19.755

them in a dark direction.

01:27:19.835 --> 01:27:20.976

So I'm curious about your

01:27:20.996 --> 01:27:22.577

thoughts since you're an

01:27:22.737 --> 01:27:24.218

expert on scrupulosity,

01:27:25.199 --> 01:27:27.561

can you speak to what

01:27:28.362 --> 01:27:31.364

behaviors that we saw in

01:27:31.424 --> 01:27:32.865

Ruby and Lori that would

01:27:33.226 --> 01:27:34.727

exhibit that or exemplify that?

01:27:35.360 --> 01:27:40.449

Yeah, I was really, really encouraged.

01:27:41.130 --> 01:27:42.612

I don't know.

01:27:42.652 --> 01:27:42.833

Like,

01:27:42.953 --> 01:27:45.097

I feel like I introduced the term

01:27:45.577 --> 01:27:46.479

scrupulosity

01:27:47.564 --> 01:27:49.766

within a Mormon context to the world.

01:27:49.866 --> 01:27:51.287

And it was kind of by accident.

01:27:52.008 --> 01:27:53.009

In two thousand eight,

01:27:53.529 --> 01:27:56.392

when I was applying to Ph.D.

01:27:56.432 --> 01:27:58.313

programs in psychology,

01:27:59.774 --> 01:28:02.417

one of my colleagues, Andrew Armstrong,

01:28:03.177 --> 01:28:03.818

just said, John,

01:28:03.838 --> 01:28:05.439

have you heard of the term scrupulosity?

01:28:05.479 --> 01:28:06.760

And I'd never heard of it before.

01:28:07.741 --> 01:28:08.282

And, you know,

01:28:08.322 --> 01:28:09.883

he was in this research lab

01:28:10.563 --> 01:28:11.764

at Utah State University

01:28:11.804 --> 01:28:15.466

studying obsessive compulsive disorder.

01:28:15.566 --> 01:28:17.388

And, of course, scrupulosity is one of the,

01:28:18.288 --> 01:28:18.508

you know,

01:28:18.789 --> 01:28:21.711

main flavors of obsessive

01:28:21.731 --> 01:28:22.551

compulsive disorder.

01:28:23.252 --> 01:28:24.192

And I'd never heard of it.

01:28:24.272 --> 01:28:24.893

So when I...

01:28:26.086 --> 01:28:28.267

got accepted into the Utah

01:28:28.307 --> 01:28:31.109

State psychology program in

01:28:31.149 --> 01:28:31.909

two thousand nine.

01:28:33.630 --> 01:28:35.331

I decided to develop a

01:28:35.391 --> 01:28:38.593

treatment for scrupulosity because,

01:28:38.753 --> 01:28:39.153

you know,

01:28:39.674 --> 01:28:40.774

I had this long standing

01:28:40.814 --> 01:28:42.595

interest in religion and Mormonism,

01:28:43.396 --> 01:28:44.636

but I had to do something

01:28:44.676 --> 01:28:46.837

around OCD because that was

01:28:46.877 --> 01:28:49.219

the clinical interests of my advisor.

01:28:49.919 --> 01:28:51.200

So I developed a treatment

01:28:51.240 --> 01:28:53.160

for scrupulosity between

01:28:53.200 --> 01:28:54.341

two thousand nine and two

01:28:54.361 --> 01:28:57.382

thousand and eleven with my professor,

01:28:57.422 --> 01:28:58.062

Michael Tuig.

01:28:58.883 --> 01:29:00.103

And that was my master's

01:29:00.123 --> 01:29:01.604

thesis and acceptance

01:29:01.624 --> 01:29:02.504

commitment therapy as a

01:29:02.544 --> 01:29:06.406

treatment for religious OCD

01:29:06.486 --> 01:29:07.286

or scrupulosity.

01:29:07.826 --> 01:29:09.027

And we published the results

01:29:09.067 --> 01:29:10.748

of that study and

01:29:12.132 --> 01:29:12.492

You know,

01:29:12.673 --> 01:29:14.194

it's a really important thing for

01:29:14.234 --> 01:29:15.335

people to understand.

01:29:16.176 --> 01:29:18.538

Scrupulosity is sort of this

01:29:18.618 --> 01:29:21.320

obsession with religious purity,

01:29:21.380 --> 01:29:23.762

of religious cleanliness.

01:29:25.003 --> 01:29:25.844

It's also,

01:29:26.505 --> 01:29:27.786

you could think of it as

01:29:28.266 --> 01:29:29.707

heightened guilt or

01:29:29.747 --> 01:29:33.771

heightened shame that goes

01:29:34.372 --> 01:29:37.154

far beyond any norm into the level of

01:29:38.208 --> 01:29:41.849

of, uh, of clinically, um, you know,

01:29:41.909 --> 01:29:42.569

significant.

01:29:42.629 --> 01:29:46.650

So feeling so much guilt and

01:29:46.690 --> 01:29:48.150

shame all the time about

01:29:48.210 --> 01:29:49.750

relatively benign things

01:29:50.430 --> 01:29:53.291

that you're praying constantly, uh,

01:29:53.311 --> 01:29:54.211

that you're praying for

01:29:54.311 --> 01:29:57.432

hours at a time that you're, uh,

01:29:57.712 --> 01:29:58.732

calling your Bishop to

01:29:58.792 --> 01:30:00.252

confess multiple times a

01:30:00.312 --> 01:30:02.293

week that you're ruminating

01:30:02.353 --> 01:30:04.053

constantly about your worthiness.

01:30:06.025 --> 01:30:07.285

Would attending the temple

01:30:07.405 --> 01:30:09.546

every single day fall into that category?

01:30:09.746 --> 01:30:10.427

Yep, yep.

01:30:10.867 --> 01:30:12.107

Yeah, absolutely.

01:30:12.228 --> 01:30:13.308

And that's Lori, right?

01:30:13.588 --> 01:30:13.964

Yeah,

01:30:14.176 --> 01:30:14.576

Yeah.

01:30:15.156 --> 01:30:16.697

Taking these way too literally,

01:30:16.757 --> 01:30:19.018

becoming obsessed with

01:30:19.058 --> 01:30:20.119

hyper-righteousness.

01:30:20.919 --> 01:30:22.119

Uh, you know,

01:30:22.219 --> 01:30:24.000

all of that type of stuff would, would,

01:30:24.140 --> 01:30:25.360

uh, would be traits.

01:30:25.761 --> 01:30:26.641

I was really encouraged to

01:30:26.661 --> 01:30:29.042

see that Sherry was aware

01:30:29.662 --> 01:30:31.202

of the term scrupulosity

01:30:31.682 --> 01:30:33.063

that she mentioned her own.

01:30:33.403 --> 01:30:34.523

I don't have to diagnose her.

01:30:35.023 --> 01:30:36.024

She mentioned her own

01:30:36.524 --> 01:30:38.224

diagnosis in her book.

01:30:39.245 --> 01:30:41.485

Um, and, uh, you know, that's that,

01:30:41.566 --> 01:30:42.586

that was the beginning of.

01:30:43.286 --> 01:30:44.887

That felt really good to see

01:30:44.927 --> 01:30:46.168

that the term has

01:30:46.388 --> 01:30:48.069

penetrated Mormon

01:30:48.129 --> 01:30:49.970

consciousness to the point where Sherry,

01:30:50.350 --> 01:30:52.651

in her own Orthodox Mormon bubble,

01:30:53.312 --> 01:30:54.893

would be aware of that term

01:30:55.413 --> 01:30:56.274

to the point where she

01:30:56.294 --> 01:30:59.335

would not only know that she met criteria,

01:30:59.375 --> 01:31:00.176

but that she would talk

01:31:00.216 --> 01:31:02.417

about it in her very successful memoir.

01:31:03.878 --> 01:31:05.779

Yeah, I think, I don't know,

01:31:05.899 --> 01:31:06.800

I wouldn't guess...

01:31:07.600 --> 01:31:09.583

that Lori exhibited signs of

01:31:09.623 --> 01:31:12.266

scrupulosity as a teen and

01:31:12.306 --> 01:31:14.169

as a young adult based on

01:31:14.890 --> 01:31:15.951

what you've told me.

01:31:15.971 --> 01:31:16.632

Right.

01:31:17.233 --> 01:31:19.176

So I wonder if it was for

01:31:19.256 --> 01:31:21.599

her later onset scrupulosity,

01:31:22.260 --> 01:31:24.903

which actually isn't probably normal

01:31:25.942 --> 01:31:28.223

Normally, OCD really,

01:31:28.564 --> 01:31:32.646

it emerges in early teens.

01:31:33.346 --> 01:31:35.187

It flares up in the late

01:31:35.227 --> 01:31:36.828

teens and early twenties,

01:31:37.369 --> 01:31:38.189

and then it starts

01:31:38.229 --> 01:31:40.270

dissipating by the early thirties.

01:31:41.111 --> 01:31:43.472

So if we were to theorize

01:31:43.492 --> 01:31:44.633

that Lori may have met

01:31:44.693 --> 01:31:47.514

criteria for scrupulosity, well,

01:31:47.554 --> 01:31:49.876

number one, it would mean that she felt

01:31:50.614 --> 01:31:52.195

potentially extreme feelings

01:31:52.235 --> 01:31:53.136

of guilt and shame.

01:31:53.837 --> 01:31:55.178

And that doesn't totally

01:31:55.218 --> 01:32:00.242

align with this idea of lack of empathy,

01:32:00.302 --> 01:32:02.844

lack of compassion, lack of insight.

01:32:04.165 --> 01:32:06.827

I'd be curious to hear your

01:32:06.847 --> 01:32:07.608

thoughts on that.

01:32:08.208 --> 01:32:10.330

Did she have a conscience at

01:32:10.450 --> 01:32:13.553

all to then experience scrupulosity?

01:32:13.848 --> 01:32:15.769

yeah give me one second i'm

01:32:15.789 --> 01:32:16.989

gonna let my dogs out

01:32:17.009 --> 01:32:18.050

because they're obviously

01:32:18.090 --> 01:32:19.310

making noise over here give

01:32:19.330 --> 01:32:20.171

me one sec sorry okay

01:32:20.496 --> 01:32:21.897

That was a great question.

01:32:22.297 --> 01:32:23.958

And it's one that I've

01:32:23.998 --> 01:32:25.299

thought about a lot because people,

01:32:25.439 --> 01:32:27.121

when I first started talking about Lori,

01:32:27.141 --> 01:32:28.121

people would ask me, you know,

01:32:28.181 --> 01:32:30.944

has she always been religious?

01:32:30.984 --> 01:32:32.044

And I would always laugh.

01:32:32.064 --> 01:32:34.887

I'm like, no, she wasn't.

01:32:35.167 --> 01:32:36.228

I noticed a significant

01:32:36.248 --> 01:32:39.330

change in Lori in the early

01:32:39.370 --> 01:32:41.872

two thousands when she was

01:32:42.092 --> 01:32:43.293

divorcing Joe Ryan.

01:32:44.034 --> 01:32:46.556

That's when I noticed, you know, hindsight,

01:32:46.596 --> 01:32:47.676

of course, at the time,

01:32:47.897 --> 01:32:49.678

I didn't know how to frame it this way.

01:32:50.680 --> 01:32:52.504

But hindsight, looking back on it,

01:32:52.564 --> 01:32:54.248

I noticed an uptick in her

01:32:54.508 --> 01:32:55.591

manipulative behavior.

01:32:56.624 --> 01:32:57.464

I noticed that she was

01:32:57.504 --> 01:32:59.906

trying really hard to put

01:32:59.986 --> 01:33:01.446

her narrative of the

01:33:01.466 --> 01:33:02.967

divorce out there and to

01:33:02.987 --> 01:33:04.748

get nobody to talk to Joe

01:33:04.808 --> 01:33:07.709

and to get everybody to be against Joe.

01:33:08.790 --> 01:33:09.870

And this is one of those

01:33:10.451 --> 01:33:11.671

tactics of manipulative

01:33:11.711 --> 01:33:13.452

people is that they try to

01:33:13.632 --> 01:33:15.093

isolate and triangulate.

01:33:15.273 --> 01:33:17.934

So the person who is the

01:33:18.375 --> 01:33:20.576

subject of reputation destruction

01:33:21.556 --> 01:33:21.796

you know,

01:33:21.836 --> 01:33:23.037

the manipulative person doesn't

01:33:23.077 --> 01:33:24.197

want anyone talking to them

01:33:24.237 --> 01:33:24.977

because they don't want

01:33:25.017 --> 01:33:26.338

their side of the story to get out.

01:33:27.098 --> 01:33:28.979

So that's kind of when I

01:33:29.039 --> 01:33:31.140

noticed an uptick in her manipulation.

01:33:31.736 --> 01:33:32.817

And then the next thing that

01:33:32.857 --> 01:33:34.817

we sort of hear from Laurie

01:33:35.158 --> 01:33:36.378

is that she's going to her

01:33:36.418 --> 01:33:39.399

bishop post-divorce and saying, you know,

01:33:39.719 --> 01:33:41.320

I'm either going to turn my

01:33:41.360 --> 01:33:42.781

life to the temple or I'm

01:33:42.801 --> 01:33:44.641

going to murder my ex-husband, you know,

01:33:44.761 --> 01:33:46.422

and I'm sure he thought she was kidding,

01:33:47.202 --> 01:33:48.723

you know, sort of tongue in cheek.

01:33:49.054 --> 01:33:50.194

But that was right around

01:33:50.234 --> 01:33:51.695

the time that she started

01:33:51.735 --> 01:33:52.535

getting interested in

01:33:52.596 --> 01:33:55.117

near-death experiences and

01:33:55.286 --> 01:33:56.667

probably when she started

01:33:56.807 --> 01:33:58.508

upping her temple attendance as well.

01:33:58.588 --> 01:34:01.470

So I think the combination

01:34:02.170 --> 01:34:05.112

of her sort of turning up

01:34:05.152 --> 01:34:05.912

the knob on her

01:34:05.953 --> 01:34:07.353

manipulation and control

01:34:07.954 --> 01:34:10.095

along with the near-death experiences,

01:34:10.135 --> 01:34:11.376

which maybe did make her

01:34:11.436 --> 01:34:13.637

feel some sense of

01:34:15.328 --> 01:34:16.329

I don't know if it was guilt

01:34:16.389 --> 01:34:18.229

or shame or if it was maybe

01:34:18.269 --> 01:34:19.250

just a fear that she was

01:34:19.290 --> 01:34:21.251

going to miss out on the

01:34:21.291 --> 01:34:23.352

celestial kingdom if she

01:34:23.392 --> 01:34:25.473

didn't turn up her religion

01:34:26.173 --> 01:34:27.774

and do better as a Mormon.

01:34:28.734 --> 01:34:29.655

So I think that's kind of

01:34:29.755 --> 01:34:31.456

when she strayed into that

01:34:31.556 --> 01:34:32.816

area of starting to go to

01:34:32.836 --> 01:34:34.017

the temple every single day,

01:34:34.377 --> 01:34:35.718

listening to podcasts,

01:34:35.778 --> 01:34:37.819

going to all of these outside conferences,

01:34:38.339 --> 01:34:40.860

trying to, as they put it in the temple,

01:34:40.920 --> 01:34:42.341

seek further light and knowledge.

01:34:43.281 --> 01:34:44.462

and you know that's the

01:34:44.482 --> 01:34:45.602

other part of this that i

01:34:45.662 --> 01:34:47.163

think i i want to explore

01:34:47.203 --> 01:34:48.243

just a little bit is like

01:34:48.623 --> 01:34:49.624

the the mormon church

01:34:49.684 --> 01:34:52.045

encourages us to go out and

01:34:52.065 --> 01:34:53.605

get our own personal

01:34:53.625 --> 01:34:55.266

revelation about things for

01:34:55.326 --> 01:34:57.167

our lives right and they

01:34:57.227 --> 01:34:59.487

encourage us to read all of

01:34:59.507 --> 01:35:01.748

the deseret books and you

01:35:01.768 --> 01:35:02.849

know to look at other

01:35:03.009 --> 01:35:04.489

faithful sources for for

01:35:04.529 --> 01:35:05.390

light and knowledge so

01:35:06.150 --> 01:35:07.211

I'm sure that a lot of these

01:35:07.251 --> 01:35:08.331

people who were attending

01:35:08.351 --> 01:35:09.412

these conferences were

01:35:09.472 --> 01:35:10.273

thinking that that's what

01:35:10.313 --> 01:35:10.893

they were doing.

01:35:10.933 --> 01:35:12.514

They were just going the extra mile.

01:35:12.534 --> 01:35:15.976

What are your thoughts on that?

01:35:16.016 --> 01:35:17.437

You may find this interesting,

01:35:17.557 --> 01:35:20.419

and I hope this fits with

01:35:21.400 --> 01:35:23.221

the redirection you just made to me.

01:35:23.361 --> 01:35:25.723

I went to chat GPT because I was curious.

01:35:26.617 --> 01:35:28.139

what Chad GPT would say about this.

01:35:28.199 --> 01:35:29.119

And I basically said,

01:35:29.760 --> 01:35:30.821

by your best analysis,

01:35:30.841 --> 01:35:31.642

would you theorize that

01:35:31.682 --> 01:35:33.564

Lori Vallow exhibited

01:35:33.604 --> 01:35:35.746

traits of religious OCD or scrupulosity?

01:35:36.647 --> 01:35:38.909

And it's really interesting

01:35:38.929 --> 01:35:39.870

the response it gave.

01:35:40.531 --> 01:35:41.291

So it said,

01:35:42.112 --> 01:35:43.994

some of the signs of

01:35:44.054 --> 01:35:46.496

scrupulosity that are

01:35:46.977 --> 01:35:48.699

connected to Lori could include,

01:35:48.759 --> 01:35:50.901

number one, excessive religious fixation.

01:35:52.363 --> 01:35:52.983

Um, so,

01:35:53.283 --> 01:35:56.425

so Lori's fixation on apocalyptic

01:35:56.465 --> 01:35:58.966

prophecies, visions, um,

01:35:59.006 --> 01:35:59.906

rigid frameworks of

01:35:59.966 --> 01:36:01.406

righteousness versus evil,

01:36:01.767 --> 01:36:02.647

believing she was part of

01:36:02.667 --> 01:36:03.447

the hundred and forty four

01:36:03.487 --> 01:36:05.408

thousand that fits with

01:36:05.468 --> 01:36:07.089

excessive religious fixation.

01:36:07.929 --> 01:36:08.889

The second would be moral

01:36:08.929 --> 01:36:10.330

and religious perfectionism.

01:36:11.290 --> 01:36:12.030

You know, uh,

01:36:12.090 --> 01:36:13.811

people's scrupulosity usually

01:36:13.831 --> 01:36:15.992

have a fear of being impure or unworthy.

01:36:18.034 --> 01:36:20.417

And so it mentions her fear

01:36:20.457 --> 01:36:21.378

that her children were

01:36:21.418 --> 01:36:22.819

possessed by dark spirits,

01:36:23.460 --> 01:36:24.220

which I don't know if that

01:36:24.240 --> 01:36:25.542

was a fear or a cover,

01:36:26.042 --> 01:36:27.484

but it gets more interesting.

01:36:28.164 --> 01:36:29.946

Religious rituals and compulsions.

01:36:30.587 --> 01:36:32.389

So, you know,

01:36:32.429 --> 01:36:34.591

scrupulosity involves

01:36:34.691 --> 01:36:36.773

compulsive religious behaviors, right?

01:36:37.770 --> 01:36:39.692

such as repeated praying or

01:36:39.812 --> 01:36:40.853

seeking reassurance.

01:36:41.493 --> 01:36:41.773

It says,

01:36:41.813 --> 01:36:43.194

while Vala did not demonstrate

01:36:43.254 --> 01:36:45.396

classic OCD rituals like

01:36:45.456 --> 01:36:47.037

excessive prayer or confession,

01:36:47.678 --> 01:36:48.819

her constant seeking of

01:36:48.839 --> 01:36:49.880

validation from Chad

01:36:49.940 --> 01:36:51.641

Daybell and others may

01:36:51.681 --> 01:36:53.002

indicate a compulsive need

01:36:53.022 --> 01:36:54.103

for religious certainty.

01:36:55.146 --> 01:36:55.966

That's what it says.

01:36:55.986 --> 01:36:56.466

Yeah.

01:36:56.726 --> 01:36:57.967

And it's got delusional

01:36:58.007 --> 01:36:59.467

versus obsessive thinking.

01:36:59.947 --> 01:37:00.747

This is interesting.

01:37:01.187 --> 01:37:01.808

There's the term

01:37:01.988 --> 01:37:04.668

egocentronic and ego dystonic.

01:37:04.688 --> 01:37:06.509

Have you heard those two terms before?

01:37:06.869 --> 01:37:07.489

Yeah.

01:37:07.589 --> 01:37:07.849

Okay.

01:37:07.869 --> 01:37:09.629

So if it's ego dystonic,

01:37:10.390 --> 01:37:12.230

it means that you've got

01:37:12.270 --> 01:37:13.610

these intrusive thoughts,

01:37:14.050 --> 01:37:15.071

but you don't want them and

01:37:15.111 --> 01:37:16.331

you don't think they're real.

01:37:16.851 --> 01:37:17.111

Right.

01:37:17.151 --> 01:37:20.372

And somebody with scrupulosity, you know,

01:37:22.100 --> 01:37:23.341

An example would be a woman

01:37:23.381 --> 01:37:24.682

who thinks she molests

01:37:24.842 --> 01:37:26.143

children even though she

01:37:26.163 --> 01:37:26.923

knows she doesn't,

01:37:27.464 --> 01:37:28.684

but her brain keeps telling

01:37:28.725 --> 01:37:30.406

her that she is molesting

01:37:30.446 --> 01:37:33.328

children or that she's not gay,

01:37:33.828 --> 01:37:35.329

but because she has OCD,

01:37:35.849 --> 01:37:36.990

she has thoughts that she

01:37:37.050 --> 01:37:38.951

might be gay and she

01:37:38.971 --> 01:37:40.172

doesn't want those thoughts

01:37:40.212 --> 01:37:41.313

or she doesn't want to

01:37:41.353 --> 01:37:42.514

think that she molests children.

01:37:43.074 --> 01:37:44.895

Those would be ego-dystonic

01:37:44.935 --> 01:37:46.757

thoughts consistent with

01:37:46.777 --> 01:37:49.338

the scrupulosity diagnosis.

01:37:49.759 --> 01:37:51.039

It says Valo's beliefs

01:37:51.079 --> 01:37:52.520

appeared ego-syntonic.

01:37:52.881 --> 01:37:55.142

Ego-syntonic is when you want,

01:37:55.622 --> 01:37:58.144

you like the delusions or

01:37:58.184 --> 01:37:59.945

the disturbing thoughts.

01:38:00.666 --> 01:38:03.027

And Chad GBT says that Valo,

01:38:04.388 --> 01:38:06.690

her beliefs were ego-syntonic.

01:38:07.527 --> 01:38:09.867

making her case more aligned

01:38:09.907 --> 01:38:11.408

with delusional disorder,

01:38:11.908 --> 01:38:13.248

religious fanaticism,

01:38:13.748 --> 01:38:15.869

or narcissistic traits

01:38:16.489 --> 01:38:18.689

rather than pure OCD.

01:38:19.489 --> 01:38:21.030

So it basically summarizes,

01:38:21.410 --> 01:38:22.710

while scrupulosity has some

01:38:22.770 --> 01:38:24.070

overlap with Vala's behavior,

01:38:24.470 --> 01:38:25.651

her case appears more

01:38:25.691 --> 01:38:28.131

consistent with delusional disorder,

01:38:28.591 --> 01:38:29.851

narcissistic traits,

01:38:30.352 --> 01:38:31.832

and religious extremism.

01:38:32.672 --> 01:38:35.233

rather than classic OCD.

01:38:35.973 --> 01:38:37.293

Scrupulosity sufferers

01:38:37.333 --> 01:38:38.614

typically feel guilt and

01:38:38.654 --> 01:38:40.334

distress over their

01:38:40.374 --> 01:38:41.995

obsessive religious thoughts,

01:38:43.335 --> 01:38:44.656

whereas Valo seemed

01:38:44.756 --> 01:38:47.796

confident and unshaken in

01:38:47.876 --> 01:38:49.577

her apocalyptic thoughts.

01:38:49.699 --> 01:38:52.461

So I think that's kind of interesting.

01:38:52.862 --> 01:38:54.003

It is really interesting.

01:38:54.463 --> 01:38:56.585

So Chad GPT says no on the

01:38:56.625 --> 01:38:58.466

scrupulosity for Lori Vallow.

01:38:59.047 --> 01:39:00.068

No on the scrupulosity.

01:39:00.108 --> 01:39:00.849

That's interesting.

01:39:00.929 --> 01:39:03.090

And I think Chad GPT got this right.

01:39:03.871 --> 01:39:04.392

I agree.

01:39:04.552 --> 01:39:05.012

I agree.

01:39:05.092 --> 01:39:06.013

And it also brings up

01:39:06.053 --> 01:39:06.894

another point that I was

01:39:06.934 --> 01:39:08.775

thinking of earlier is that

01:39:10.317 --> 01:39:15.161

I have yet to find a difference between

01:39:17.459 --> 01:39:19.220

holy ghost and confirmation

01:39:19.240 --> 01:39:22.001

bias and the thing the

01:39:22.041 --> 01:39:23.121

other thing that i think is

01:39:23.221 --> 01:39:24.442

difficult problematic

01:39:24.482 --> 01:39:25.902

troubling about the mormon

01:39:25.942 --> 01:39:27.283

church's teachings about

01:39:27.323 --> 01:39:28.923

personal revelation and the

01:39:28.963 --> 01:39:31.064

holy ghost are that if you

01:39:31.144 --> 01:39:32.985

have a mentally ill person

01:39:33.245 --> 01:39:34.405

who wants to believe that

01:39:34.425 --> 01:39:35.666

they're a god for example

01:39:35.706 --> 01:39:38.727

lori vallow then of course their

01:39:39.893 --> 01:39:41.554

feelings of the holy ghost

01:39:41.594 --> 01:39:42.454

are going to confirm to

01:39:42.494 --> 01:39:43.935

them that that's true so

01:39:43.955 --> 01:39:44.755

it's like you're saying

01:39:44.795 --> 01:39:46.035

with you know that that

01:39:46.396 --> 01:39:47.976

syntonic thought of lori's

01:39:47.996 --> 01:39:48.936

that she wants to be

01:39:48.976 --> 01:39:50.117

special and important and a

01:39:50.177 --> 01:39:52.518

goddess and so she thinks

01:39:52.558 --> 01:39:53.738

she is and so then she

01:39:53.778 --> 01:39:55.139

prays to god and says am i

01:39:55.159 --> 01:39:56.299

a goddess and she feels

01:39:56.319 --> 01:39:58.040

good about it so that she

01:39:58.060 --> 01:39:58.820

believes that's the holy

01:39:58.860 --> 01:40:00.801

ghost telling her so that's

01:40:00.841 --> 01:40:02.342

just my point is just that

01:40:02.922 --> 01:40:05.363

if you have individuals who

01:40:05.543 --> 01:40:08.304

already have a tendency towards

01:40:09.148 --> 01:40:10.508

mental illness or who

01:40:10.669 --> 01:40:12.329

already have a tendency

01:40:12.369 --> 01:40:13.950

towards grandiose thoughts

01:40:15.150 --> 01:40:16.650

the idea that god is

01:40:16.690 --> 01:40:18.611

confirming that to them is

01:40:18.811 --> 01:40:20.212

really harmful you know

01:40:20.272 --> 01:40:21.452

it's it's almost like

01:40:22.132 --> 01:40:23.453

making their mental illness

01:40:23.533 --> 01:40:26.594

worse rather than you know

01:40:26.614 --> 01:40:28.014

giving them opportunities

01:40:28.074 --> 01:40:30.515

to think in healthier ways

01:40:30.555 --> 01:40:33.516

yeah absolutely

01:40:35.018 --> 01:40:35.358

Yeah,

01:40:35.378 --> 01:40:37.820

so as far as Ruby's concerned with

01:40:37.880 --> 01:40:39.661

her religious scrupulosity,

01:40:41.202 --> 01:40:43.423

did you ask ChatTPT about Ruby as well?

01:40:44.484 --> 01:40:48.866

No, but actually, I think Ruby potentially,

01:40:49.787 --> 01:40:51.508

you know, she seemed to have,

01:40:52.589 --> 01:40:53.889

I definitely think she

01:40:54.270 --> 01:40:57.732

exhibits some narcissistic

01:40:58.692 --> 01:41:01.214

traits from an early age.

01:41:03.580 --> 01:41:07.342

But I could envision some of

01:41:07.442 --> 01:41:10.384

her behaviors as

01:41:10.445 --> 01:41:13.026

explainable as sort of

01:41:13.226 --> 01:41:16.168

neurotic perfectionism.

01:41:17.419 --> 01:41:19.460

and uh and even religiously

01:41:19.540 --> 01:41:21.440

motivated neurotic

01:41:21.480 --> 01:41:23.981

perfectionism i uh i could

01:41:24.181 --> 01:41:25.361

i could see that a bit more

01:41:25.901 --> 01:41:26.962

what do you think i'll ask

01:41:27.022 --> 01:41:28.222

chat gbt now and see okay

01:41:28.242 --> 01:41:30.843

well while while you're you

01:41:30.863 --> 01:41:31.663

know while you're asking

01:41:31.703 --> 01:41:33.864

chat gbt i will mention

01:41:33.904 --> 01:41:36.384

that i um when the when

01:41:36.424 --> 01:41:38.045

jody's lawsuit came out i

01:41:38.105 --> 01:41:39.525

started doing some research

01:41:39.725 --> 01:41:41.686

and i came across the

01:41:41.726 --> 01:41:43.346

connections podcast still

01:41:43.406 --> 01:41:44.787

available on spotify

01:41:45.807 --> 01:41:46.847

um although i could get it

01:41:46.887 --> 01:41:47.848

on my phone but not on my

01:41:47.888 --> 01:41:49.128

computer for some reason so

01:41:49.188 --> 01:41:50.288

i went and downloaded a few

01:41:50.308 --> 01:41:52.248

of the episodes and one of

01:41:52.268 --> 01:41:53.489

the ones that really stood

01:41:53.549 --> 01:41:55.929

out to me because i was i

01:41:55.949 --> 01:41:57.630

was curious about what was

01:41:57.670 --> 01:41:59.210

going on with the podcast

01:41:59.250 --> 01:42:00.450

while these children were

01:42:00.470 --> 01:42:01.790

being tortured in jody's

01:42:01.831 --> 01:42:04.251

house and the timeline is

01:42:04.311 --> 01:42:06.031

that in may of twenty

01:42:06.071 --> 01:42:08.572

twenty three is when

01:42:10.262 --> 01:42:12.044

Jodi and Ruby moved with

01:42:12.084 --> 01:42:14.467

these two younger children down to Ivins,

01:42:14.587 --> 01:42:17.069

Utah, to live in Jodi's mansion.

01:42:18.130 --> 01:42:20.052

And they did lots of

01:42:20.092 --> 01:42:21.794

podcasts during that time period,

01:42:21.814 --> 01:42:23.876

but there were just a few

01:42:23.936 --> 01:42:25.157

right there at the very end.

01:42:25.737 --> 01:42:26.879

And podcast number two

01:42:26.919 --> 01:42:28.160

thirty five is called The

01:42:28.200 --> 01:42:29.481

Parable of the Pineapple.

01:42:29.541 --> 01:42:31.183

And it was recorded on July

01:42:31.243 --> 01:42:32.524

twenty second of twenty three,

01:42:32.544 --> 01:42:34.286

which is just one month before the

01:42:35.047 --> 01:42:35.988

They were arrested.

01:42:36.068 --> 01:42:37.268

So you know that those kids

01:42:37.308 --> 01:42:39.710

were already in quite a bit

01:42:39.730 --> 01:42:41.251

of distress when this was going on.

01:42:41.851 --> 01:42:43.532

But the podcast talks about

01:42:43.632 --> 01:42:45.413

a past episode with her

01:42:45.453 --> 01:42:47.394

children where she put her

01:42:47.454 --> 01:42:48.975

four-year-old son and her

01:42:49.035 --> 01:42:50.076

six-year-old daughter on

01:42:50.116 --> 01:42:51.296

the couch to watch a movie

01:42:51.316 --> 01:42:52.737

while she went to take a

01:42:52.757 --> 01:42:54.358

nap because she was nine

01:42:54.398 --> 01:42:55.839

months pregnant and she needed a nap.

01:42:56.499 --> 01:42:57.900

So she was expecting the

01:42:57.920 --> 01:42:59.001

children to stay on the

01:42:59.021 --> 01:43:00.702

couch and not move for a whole hour.

01:43:02.055 --> 01:43:03.716

And she told him, don't go in the kitchen.

01:43:04.457 --> 01:43:05.798

So she goes up to take the nap.

01:43:05.838 --> 01:43:06.758

She comes back down.

01:43:06.999 --> 01:43:07.839

The movie's still playing.

01:43:07.859 --> 01:43:08.740

They're sitting on the sofa.

01:43:08.760 --> 01:43:10.621

She's like, oh, I'm so relieved.

01:43:10.681 --> 01:43:12.222

You did what I told you to do.

01:43:12.863 --> 01:43:13.963

And then she relates going

01:43:14.004 --> 01:43:15.364

into the kitchen and her

01:43:15.425 --> 01:43:16.825

feet were sticking to the floor.

01:43:16.886 --> 01:43:18.267

And she goes into great

01:43:18.307 --> 01:43:20.128

detail about how sticky the floor was.

01:43:20.648 --> 01:43:21.349

And she says,

01:43:22.209 --> 01:43:24.211

so I did what any mother would do.

01:43:25.613 --> 01:43:27.394

Which I'm thinking to myself,

01:43:27.654 --> 01:43:29.095

I would probably just get a

01:43:29.155 --> 01:43:30.476

cloth and clean it up and

01:43:30.716 --> 01:43:31.797

maybe ask the kids if they

01:43:31.817 --> 01:43:32.517

know what happened.

01:43:32.858 --> 01:43:34.859

But no, Ruby gets down on the floor.

01:43:35.699 --> 01:43:37.661

She smells the sticky spot

01:43:38.021 --> 01:43:39.422

to see if she can tell what it is.

01:43:39.562 --> 01:43:41.263

And because she can't discern the smell,

01:43:41.303 --> 01:43:42.744

she literally licks the floor.

01:43:43.812 --> 01:43:44.912

Wow.

01:43:44.952 --> 01:43:46.633

And she figures out that

01:43:46.673 --> 01:43:48.213

it's pineapple juice on the floor.

01:43:49.033 --> 01:43:50.733

And so she confronts her kids.

01:43:51.234 --> 01:43:52.614

Neither one of them say anything.

01:43:53.274 --> 01:43:54.234

And she said, all right, fine.

01:43:54.294 --> 01:43:55.094

I'm going to stand right

01:43:55.154 --> 01:43:57.035

here until you tell me what happened.

01:43:57.055 --> 01:43:57.915

Because I know the two of

01:43:57.935 --> 01:43:58.975

you were down here and it

01:43:59.075 --> 01:44:00.335

couldn't have happened any other way.

01:44:00.355 --> 01:44:01.456

So I'm just going to stand right here.

01:44:01.476 --> 01:44:02.396

And she said, finally,

01:44:02.876 --> 01:44:03.896

her four-year-old son

01:44:03.936 --> 01:44:05.637

confessed to her that he

01:44:05.677 --> 01:44:06.797

had gotten some pineapple

01:44:06.837 --> 01:44:08.097

from the fridge and spilled

01:44:08.457 --> 01:44:11.018

pineapple juice on the floor.

01:44:11.118 --> 01:44:11.978

And so she...

01:44:13.864 --> 01:44:16.106

says that she brings the kid

01:44:16.126 --> 01:44:16.986

into the kitchen,

01:44:17.647 --> 01:44:19.528

they get some hot soapy water.

01:44:20.249 --> 01:44:21.430

She makes sure that he

01:44:21.530 --> 01:44:22.951

understands how big of a

01:44:22.991 --> 01:44:25.032

mess this is and what he's done.

01:44:25.573 --> 01:44:26.854

And they get on the floor

01:44:26.914 --> 01:44:28.235

and they scrub and they clean.

01:44:28.935 --> 01:44:29.896

and she said not only did

01:44:29.916 --> 01:44:31.097

they do the floor but then

01:44:31.117 --> 01:44:32.258

they went under the

01:44:32.278 --> 01:44:33.740

cabinets and on the

01:44:33.760 --> 01:44:34.701

baseboard and she was

01:44:34.721 --> 01:44:35.562

showing him the little

01:44:35.622 --> 01:44:36.903

spots of pineapple juice on

01:44:36.923 --> 01:44:37.964

the baseboard and how they

01:44:37.984 --> 01:44:39.666

had to scrub those off and

01:44:39.686 --> 01:44:40.607

then they went to the bar

01:44:40.647 --> 01:44:41.488

stool and they looked at

01:44:41.508 --> 01:44:42.629

the legs of the bar stool

01:44:42.709 --> 01:44:43.390

and saw that there were

01:44:43.410 --> 01:44:44.631

pineapple splatters there

01:44:44.651 --> 01:44:45.632

and then then made him

01:44:45.692 --> 01:44:47.374

scrub those off and i was

01:44:47.394 --> 01:44:48.435

thinking man this is kind

01:44:48.475 --> 01:44:50.437

of reminding me a little bit of ocd

01:44:51.157 --> 01:44:51.438

you know,

01:44:52.058 --> 01:44:53.740

where you have this fixation

01:44:53.860 --> 01:44:55.461

about removing every single

01:44:55.501 --> 01:44:57.884

spot of pineapple juice from everywhere.

01:44:58.705 --> 01:44:59.305

And, you know,

01:44:59.345 --> 01:45:01.667

she engages in quite a lot of, you know,

01:45:01.748 --> 01:45:03.289

really harmful talk during this.

01:45:03.309 --> 01:45:04.810

So I'm going to do another

01:45:04.891 --> 01:45:05.892

episode where I can

01:45:06.532 --> 01:45:08.314

detail it and play it for

01:45:08.334 --> 01:45:10.536

for everybody but to me you

01:45:10.556 --> 01:45:12.218

know i was thinking this

01:45:12.318 --> 01:45:13.840

idea and and what keeps

01:45:13.860 --> 01:45:14.921

coming up in the lawsuit

01:45:14.961 --> 01:45:16.443

too is like this perfect

01:45:16.503 --> 01:45:18.104

obedience this exactness

01:45:18.164 --> 01:45:19.866

about everything those were

01:45:19.886 --> 01:45:21.027

kind of some of my thoughts

01:45:21.067 --> 01:45:22.809

around why i think she

01:45:22.869 --> 01:45:23.770

might have some of those

01:45:23.810 --> 01:45:26.613

traits so i'll give you the

01:45:26.633 --> 01:45:27.054

verdict um okay

01:45:29.455 --> 01:45:32.658

so regarding uh i'll just

01:45:32.698 --> 01:45:34.480

cut to the to the summary

01:45:35.181 --> 01:45:36.842

ruby frankie showed some

01:45:36.882 --> 01:45:38.124

traits of scrupulosity

01:45:38.184 --> 01:45:39.485

according to chad gbt

01:45:40.166 --> 01:45:41.907

especially rigid morality

01:45:42.668 --> 01:45:44.070

and fear of divine

01:45:44.170 --> 01:45:47.433

punishment um i was just

01:45:47.453 --> 01:45:49.675

gonna say i don't think she

01:45:49.715 --> 01:45:52.037

showed rigid morality she showed

01:45:52.948 --> 01:45:54.349

The enforcement of rigid

01:45:54.389 --> 01:45:55.910

morality on her children.

01:45:55.991 --> 01:45:56.491

But anyway.

01:45:56.591 --> 01:45:57.151

Yes.

01:45:57.952 --> 01:45:58.973

There's a big difference

01:45:59.013 --> 01:45:59.834

between those two things.

01:45:59.854 --> 01:46:00.194

Yeah.

01:46:00.554 --> 01:46:03.597

Rules for me, but, you know, whatever.

01:46:04.122 --> 01:46:06.064

But it says, however, her certainty,

01:46:06.604 --> 01:46:08.346

lack of visible distress,

01:46:08.847 --> 01:46:10.348

and authoritarian parenting

01:46:10.949 --> 01:46:12.110

suggests that extreme

01:46:12.130 --> 01:46:15.153

religious fundamentalism, narcissism,

01:46:15.734 --> 01:46:18.036

and abusive control played

01:46:18.076 --> 01:46:20.058

a larger role than OCD.

01:46:20.458 --> 01:46:21.079

So that's interesting.

01:46:21.159 --> 01:46:24.102

I didn't prompt Chad GPT to

01:46:24.642 --> 01:46:26.644

even think about narcissism.

01:46:27.345 --> 01:46:27.745

And yet...

01:46:28.406 --> 01:46:30.108

it basically says not really

01:46:30.168 --> 01:46:32.810

scrupulosity but definitely

01:46:32.990 --> 01:46:35.452

narcissism i i and i had to

01:46:35.532 --> 01:46:36.813

ask about jody hildebrand

01:46:36.873 --> 01:46:41.157

as well um and uh yeah it

01:46:41.217 --> 01:46:43.058

basically says her extreme

01:46:43.098 --> 01:46:44.479

focus on morality and sin

01:46:44.559 --> 01:46:45.841

aligns with scrupulosity

01:46:46.241 --> 01:46:48.182

but she lacks the doubt anxiety

01:46:49.023 --> 01:46:50.644

or self-punishment typically

01:46:50.704 --> 01:46:52.104

seen in religious OCD.

01:46:52.725 --> 01:46:53.925

So for ChadGBT,

01:46:54.346 --> 01:46:59.028

Jodi's just a clear no on scrupulosity.

01:46:59.468 --> 01:47:00.268

What it says is she

01:47:00.308 --> 01:47:01.889

exhibited authoritarian and

01:47:01.949 --> 01:47:03.630

cult-like behaviors.

01:47:04.396 --> 01:47:06.077

emphasizing absolute control

01:47:06.137 --> 01:47:08.878

over her followers, forcing individuals,

01:47:08.938 --> 01:47:10.358

including Ruby's children,

01:47:10.818 --> 01:47:12.439

to confess sins and undergo

01:47:12.519 --> 01:47:13.760

psychological torment,

01:47:14.500 --> 01:47:16.160

using her authority to

01:47:16.200 --> 01:47:18.001

manipulate others rather

01:47:18.041 --> 01:47:20.282

than seeking reassurances for herself.

01:47:21.102 --> 01:47:21.623

Her rigid,

01:47:21.663 --> 01:47:23.203

high-control mindset suggests

01:47:23.243 --> 01:47:26.484

cult psychology rather than OCD.

01:47:26.985 --> 01:47:29.085

She positioned herself as infallible,

01:47:30.986 --> 01:47:32.827

and she lacked, again, excessive guilt.

01:47:33.964 --> 01:47:36.425

um and uh she was more about

01:47:36.505 --> 01:47:37.985

enforcing purity on others

01:47:38.325 --> 01:47:39.205

and clearly she had the

01:47:39.225 --> 01:47:42.806

double standard of the i

01:47:42.846 --> 01:47:44.427

don't know homoerotic

01:47:44.507 --> 01:47:46.127

massages with other women

01:47:47.047 --> 01:47:49.268

in sherry's bedroom yeah

01:47:49.288 --> 01:47:50.768

you know but then if a

01:47:51.508 --> 01:47:52.208

fifteen-year-old boy

01:47:52.268 --> 01:47:54.929

touches himself or a

01:47:54.949 --> 01:47:56.029

thirty-year-old man touches

01:47:56.069 --> 01:47:57.430

himself he's a pedophile

01:47:57.450 --> 01:47:58.430

that needs to go to prison

01:47:58.530 --> 01:47:58.950

you know what i mean

01:47:59.444 --> 01:47:59.664

Right.

01:47:59.785 --> 01:48:00.786

And while while we're on the

01:48:00.826 --> 01:48:01.727

subject of Jodi,

01:48:01.827 --> 01:48:03.029

let's just go ahead and

01:48:03.049 --> 01:48:05.171

mention the fact of this

01:48:05.372 --> 01:48:07.154

false morality that she had,

01:48:07.214 --> 01:48:08.676

this inflated sense of her

01:48:08.856 --> 01:48:11.039

own worthiness and righteousness,

01:48:11.059 --> 01:48:12.681

because we know that her

01:48:12.721 --> 01:48:14.023

license was revoked.

01:48:14.343 --> 01:48:15.344

Her therapy license was

01:48:15.385 --> 01:48:17.207

revoked in twenty twelve.

01:48:17.766 --> 01:48:19.467

when she reported Adam Paul

01:48:19.507 --> 01:48:21.609

Steed to the BYU Honor Code office,

01:48:22.150 --> 01:48:23.771

breaching client

01:48:24.111 --> 01:48:25.612

confidentiality and HIPAA

01:48:25.632 --> 01:48:26.593

laws and all of that.

01:48:27.094 --> 01:48:29.355

So her license was suspended.

01:48:29.996 --> 01:48:31.257

And then she went on to

01:48:31.297 --> 01:48:32.838

practice the same principles,

01:48:33.138 --> 01:48:35.200

but just called it life coaching instead.

01:48:35.921 --> 01:48:36.661

Not only that,

01:48:36.701 --> 01:48:38.383

but she also moved in with

01:48:38.483 --> 01:48:39.984

more than one of her

01:48:40.244 --> 01:48:42.306

patients slash clients

01:48:42.826 --> 01:48:45.948

which is hugely unethical as far as,

01:48:46.068 --> 01:48:47.389

you know, therapists are concerned.

01:48:47.409 --> 01:48:49.591

That's definitely not something that,

01:48:49.851 --> 01:48:50.091

you know,

01:48:51.212 --> 01:48:52.653

there's a lot of ethics training

01:48:53.113 --> 01:48:54.674

around treating individuals

01:48:54.714 --> 01:48:55.855

for their mental health.

01:48:55.895 --> 01:48:56.655

And that definitely goes

01:48:56.695 --> 01:48:58.056

against all the ethics training.

01:48:58.817 --> 01:48:59.797

So, you know,

01:48:59.857 --> 01:49:02.739

this idea that she's above the rules,

01:49:02.759 --> 01:49:03.760

she gets to pick and choose

01:49:03.780 --> 01:49:05.101

which rules she's going to follow,

01:49:05.221 --> 01:49:06.101

which ones are going to be

01:49:06.141 --> 01:49:06.962

important to her.

01:49:07.963 --> 01:49:08.803

And, you know,

01:49:08.843 --> 01:49:11.285

that's just another one of those markers.

01:49:11.365 --> 01:49:11.485

Yeah.

01:49:12.845 --> 01:49:13.265

Yeah,

01:49:13.285 --> 01:49:14.426

I wanted to mention while we're on

01:49:14.466 --> 01:49:15.967

this subject too, though,

01:49:16.407 --> 01:49:17.628

there's another cluster B

01:49:17.668 --> 01:49:19.750

personality disorder that

01:49:19.850 --> 01:49:20.930

sort of overlaps.

01:49:20.950 --> 01:49:21.631

There's a little bit of a

01:49:21.711 --> 01:49:23.352

Venn diagram overlap with

01:49:23.472 --> 01:49:25.954

OCD and narcissism and it's

01:49:26.054 --> 01:49:27.215

obsessive compulsive

01:49:27.275 --> 01:49:28.476

personality disorder.

01:49:29.296 --> 01:49:30.657

which I've dealt with people

01:49:30.697 --> 01:49:32.038

with this disorder as well.

01:49:32.138 --> 01:49:32.778

And it was, it can,

01:49:33.239 --> 01:49:34.480

it was so enlightening to

01:49:34.540 --> 01:49:36.141

finally have this as a

01:49:36.201 --> 01:49:38.322

marker because it's like, well,

01:49:38.462 --> 01:49:39.343

this doesn't fit.

01:49:39.383 --> 01:49:40.183

This does fit.

01:49:40.243 --> 01:49:42.265

Like, how do I understand this person?

01:49:42.865 --> 01:49:44.526

And I think that probably

01:49:44.586 --> 01:49:46.748

Ruby had some of these OCPD

01:49:47.388 --> 01:49:48.309

traits as well.

01:49:48.429 --> 01:49:52.772

So for, for OCPD, the personality disorder,

01:49:53.152 --> 01:49:54.393

there's perfectionism,

01:49:54.493 --> 01:49:56.414

there's preoccupation with detail and,

01:49:56.933 --> 01:49:58.795

Excessive work and productivity.

01:49:58.935 --> 01:50:01.138

I think that fits for Ruby.

01:50:02.199 --> 01:50:03.520

Order and organization.

01:50:03.601 --> 01:50:05.663

Reluctance to delegate due

01:50:05.703 --> 01:50:06.704

to the beliefs that others

01:50:06.744 --> 01:50:08.005

won't meet their standards.

01:50:08.686 --> 01:50:12.219

Miserliness, or I also call this,

01:50:12.219 --> 01:50:13.674

uh what do you call it uh

01:50:13.774 --> 01:50:16.875

parsimonious that's the

01:50:16.915 --> 01:50:19.256

word um just not wanting to

01:50:19.276 --> 01:50:20.656

save money because focusing

01:50:20.716 --> 01:50:21.916

on future catastrophes

01:50:21.936 --> 01:50:23.056

rather than enjoying life

01:50:23.577 --> 01:50:24.217

stubbornness and

01:50:24.237 --> 01:50:25.597

inflexibility like that

01:50:25.637 --> 01:50:27.218

black and white feelings uh

01:50:27.358 --> 01:50:28.378

black and white thinking

01:50:28.478 --> 01:50:30.818

the inability to you know

01:50:31.679 --> 01:50:33.259

make different plans when

01:50:33.319 --> 01:50:34.519

something happens or to

01:50:34.579 --> 01:50:36.820

change ideas or anything like that

01:50:37.872 --> 01:50:39.113

And then their relationships

01:50:39.654 --> 01:50:41.456

suffer because they're so controlling.

01:50:41.876 --> 01:50:42.577

So I think there's some

01:50:42.697 --> 01:50:44.699

aspects of that to what

01:50:44.779 --> 01:50:46.481

Ruby does as well.

01:50:47.277 --> 01:50:47.557

Yeah.

01:50:48.046 --> 01:50:50.507

Yeah, OCPD is, you know,

01:50:50.627 --> 01:50:54.249

one thing that people often do is they,

01:50:55.329 --> 01:50:55.749

you know,

01:50:55.909 --> 01:50:58.790

if somebody is neurotic or super

01:50:58.970 --> 01:51:03.372

organized or super clean or

01:51:03.452 --> 01:51:04.913

high attention to detail,

01:51:05.473 --> 01:51:06.834

they'll call them OCD.

01:51:07.374 --> 01:51:08.054

And that's fine.

01:51:08.154 --> 01:51:09.695

You know, it's normal that we're going to.

01:51:10.688 --> 01:51:11.549

You know, if somebody's sad,

01:51:11.569 --> 01:51:12.791

they're going to say I'm depressed,

01:51:12.851 --> 01:51:14.313

even if they don't meet criteria.

01:51:14.754 --> 01:51:15.274

So I'm not, like,

01:51:15.495 --> 01:51:16.937

going to make a big deal about that.

01:51:17.478 --> 01:51:19.841

But if we are talking about being precise,

01:51:22.104 --> 01:51:23.085

you know, so...

01:51:24.240 --> 01:51:25.882

Lots of people are going to

01:51:25.922 --> 01:51:26.843

be neat and tidy and

01:51:26.883 --> 01:51:28.945

organized and care about

01:51:28.985 --> 01:51:31.829

what they do and try to do

01:51:31.849 --> 01:51:32.910

the best that they can.

01:51:33.611 --> 01:51:34.812

That doesn't necessarily

01:51:35.453 --> 01:51:39.457

meet criteria for OCD or OCPD, right?

01:51:39.858 --> 01:51:40.158

Right.

01:51:40.238 --> 01:51:42.541

That could just be a high-achieving person,

01:51:42.781 --> 01:51:44.783

right, who's conscientious.

01:51:45.794 --> 01:51:48.576

Um, OCD is when,

01:51:48.976 --> 01:51:51.638

is when you have intrusive

01:51:51.718 --> 01:51:55.621

thoughts that are highly distressing.

01:51:55.701 --> 01:51:57.942

Like I'm going to get sick and die.

01:51:58.183 --> 01:52:00.264

Uh, someone's going to murder me.

01:52:00.824 --> 01:52:01.845

I'm a pervert.

01:52:01.905 --> 01:52:02.345

Uh,

01:52:02.906 --> 01:52:05.668

I'm a sexual deviant when those things

01:52:05.748 --> 01:52:07.669

aren't really true or realistic.

01:52:08.210 --> 01:52:10.231

It's just stuff your brain is telling you.

01:52:10.911 --> 01:52:13.273

And it's so distressing, uh,

01:52:13.393 --> 01:52:15.896

that you develop compulsive

01:52:15.936 --> 01:52:18.459

behaviors to neutralize the

01:52:18.519 --> 01:52:21.001

anxiety of the intrusive

01:52:21.021 --> 01:52:22.683

thoughts that are coming in your brain.

01:52:23.324 --> 01:52:25.106

So whether it's flipping light switches,

01:52:25.566 --> 01:52:27.448

checking the stove to make

01:52:27.468 --> 01:52:28.549

sure you turned it off,

01:52:29.570 --> 01:52:31.312

obsessively washing your hands,

01:52:33.414 --> 01:52:35.315

you know, counting things,

01:52:35.876 --> 01:52:37.317

confessing to the bishop.

01:52:37.637 --> 01:52:39.958

These are all compulsive

01:52:39.998 --> 01:52:42.180

behaviors that both seek to

01:52:42.220 --> 01:52:44.461

neutralize the stress and

01:52:44.501 --> 01:52:46.142

anxiety of your intrusive thoughts,

01:52:46.743 --> 01:52:49.345

but they also get in the

01:52:49.365 --> 01:52:50.205

way of your life.

01:52:50.665 --> 01:52:52.407

Like you can't get an OCD

01:52:52.447 --> 01:52:55.389

diagnosis unless it's

01:52:55.489 --> 01:52:57.310

impacting significantly

01:52:57.670 --> 01:52:59.211

your work or your school or

01:52:59.231 --> 01:53:01.633

your relationships or your mental health.

01:53:02.193 --> 01:53:03.574

So that's category one.

01:53:03.674 --> 01:53:04.595

That's OCD.

01:53:05.696 --> 01:53:07.977

Category two is OCPD.

01:53:08.678 --> 01:53:12.460

And OCPD is quite different than OCD.

01:53:13.021 --> 01:53:14.542

And if you'll put that list

01:53:14.582 --> 01:53:16.223

back up for just a second,

01:53:16.904 --> 01:53:18.265

I think it's really important,

01:53:19.045 --> 01:53:21.327

maybe go up just a little bit to the

01:53:22.969 --> 01:53:24.110

Up to the top.

01:53:24.190 --> 01:53:24.971

Yeah, yeah.

01:53:25.351 --> 01:53:28.574

Like, okay, you're a perfectionist, right?

01:53:29.054 --> 01:53:29.975

But oftentimes you're a

01:53:30.015 --> 01:53:31.656

perfectionist for other people.

01:53:32.597 --> 01:53:35.720

And this excessive work and productivity,

01:53:36.200 --> 01:53:37.561

that's not OCD.

01:53:37.981 --> 01:53:40.343

Like OCD people are so

01:53:40.383 --> 01:53:43.106

dominated by their disease

01:53:43.446 --> 01:53:45.347

that they're not productive at work.

01:53:45.788 --> 01:53:47.229

They're not getting things

01:53:47.289 --> 01:53:50.351

done because their life is in shambles.

01:53:51.192 --> 01:53:54.516

And, and, you know, order an organization.

01:53:54.957 --> 01:53:56.418

It turns out that hoarding

01:53:56.799 --> 01:53:59.522

is a subtype of OCD and

01:53:59.602 --> 01:54:00.403

there's going to be a lot

01:54:00.443 --> 01:54:02.786

of people with OCD that can't,

01:54:03.794 --> 01:54:05.115

do basic hygiene,

01:54:05.975 --> 01:54:07.536

let alone maintain a

01:54:07.576 --> 01:54:09.697

meticulous house because

01:54:09.757 --> 01:54:14.840

their OCD is so pervasive

01:54:15.080 --> 01:54:16.041

and suffocating.

01:54:16.661 --> 01:54:19.763

Does it take them away from

01:54:19.823 --> 01:54:20.904

being able to complete

01:54:20.984 --> 01:54:22.845

other tasks because the OCD

01:54:22.885 --> 01:54:23.685

is what they have to pay

01:54:23.725 --> 01:54:24.686

attention to first?

01:54:24.926 --> 01:54:25.106

Yeah.

01:54:25.146 --> 01:54:27.206

That's literally why you

01:54:27.226 --> 01:54:28.587

would ever achieve, uh,

01:54:28.927 --> 01:54:30.987

obtain a diagnosis is it's

01:54:31.047 --> 01:54:32.367

just destroying your life.

01:54:32.387 --> 01:54:33.347

Right.

01:54:33.487 --> 01:54:35.848

There's no such thing as like, I mean,

01:54:36.248 --> 01:54:38.168

you could say high functioning OCD,

01:54:38.648 --> 01:54:40.229

but no, not really.

01:54:40.309 --> 01:54:41.589

Like it's,

01:54:41.829 --> 01:54:43.889

you wouldn't meet criteria if it

01:54:43.929 --> 01:54:44.969

weren't causing you

01:54:45.530 --> 01:54:46.810

significant distress where

01:54:46.830 --> 01:54:47.770

it was getting in the way

01:54:48.210 --> 01:54:50.470

of basic life functioning.

01:54:50.490 --> 01:54:51.811

So yeah,

01:54:51.851 --> 01:54:53.551

if you're super ordered and organized,

01:54:53.571 --> 01:54:53.611

uh,

01:54:54.863 --> 01:54:55.764

You're either

01:54:55.824 --> 01:54:56.684

high-functioning

01:54:58.045 --> 01:55:00.646

conscientious or you're OCPD, right?

01:55:01.127 --> 01:55:01.947

But I think it's really

01:55:01.967 --> 01:55:04.368

interesting that it lists

01:55:05.109 --> 01:55:06.650

interpersonal relationships,

01:55:07.230 --> 01:55:08.351

relationships suffer

01:55:08.391 --> 01:55:09.971

because of their controlling behaviors,

01:55:10.672 --> 01:55:13.854

lack of empathy, inability to compromise.

01:55:14.354 --> 01:55:18.596

That absolutely sounds like, you know,

01:55:18.636 --> 01:55:20.457

consistent with Ruby and

01:55:20.517 --> 01:55:23.499

potentially Jodi as well.

01:55:24.561 --> 01:55:25.916

And I don't know about

01:55:26.348 --> 01:55:28.009

I don't know about Lori and Chad.

01:55:28.670 --> 01:55:33.213

I'm not sure about OCPD with Lori and Chad,

01:55:33.233 --> 01:55:33.773

honestly.

01:55:33.853 --> 01:55:34.273

Yeah,

01:55:34.293 --> 01:55:36.094

I don't think that I got that vibe

01:55:36.135 --> 01:55:37.315

from anything that Lori and

01:55:37.335 --> 01:55:38.196

Chad were doing.

01:55:39.157 --> 01:55:41.138

I think they definitely fall

01:55:41.258 --> 01:55:42.099

much more under the

01:55:42.139 --> 01:55:44.620

category of that grandiosity.

01:55:45.681 --> 01:55:46.742

Sort of the classic

01:55:46.802 --> 01:55:48.022

narcissist that we all

01:55:48.062 --> 01:55:51.485

think of is the one who is very boastful,

01:55:51.745 --> 01:55:52.966

just inflated with their

01:55:53.046 --> 01:55:54.227

own self-importance,

01:55:54.267 --> 01:55:55.968

doesn't really care about other people,

01:55:56.668 --> 01:55:58.710

you know, those kind of traits.

01:55:59.430 --> 01:56:01.232

And I'm glad that there is a

01:56:01.392 --> 01:56:02.673

more comprehensive

01:56:02.713 --> 01:56:05.775

conversation about narcissism going on in,

01:56:05.795 --> 01:56:06.936

you know, in the world today.

01:56:06.976 --> 01:56:07.196

You know,

01:56:07.256 --> 01:56:10.358

Dr. Ramani Dervasula just

01:56:10.899 --> 01:56:12.800

published a book called It's Not You.

01:56:13.701 --> 01:56:14.601

She's got a hugely

01:56:14.661 --> 01:56:16.463

successful YouTube channel where she

01:56:17.063 --> 01:56:18.124

talks about all things

01:56:18.184 --> 01:56:19.745

narcissism and and honestly

01:56:19.765 --> 01:56:21.005

that's where I first

01:56:21.185 --> 01:56:22.486

started learning about

01:56:22.566 --> 01:56:23.907

narcissism and narcissistic

01:56:23.947 --> 01:56:25.628

traits so for those of you

01:56:25.668 --> 01:56:27.469

who have people in your

01:56:27.509 --> 01:56:28.830

life that exhibit some of

01:56:28.850 --> 01:56:31.251

these traits her channel is

01:56:31.271 --> 01:56:32.932

a great resource to go to

01:56:33.432 --> 01:56:35.373

to find out how to deal

01:56:35.393 --> 01:56:36.614

with these types of people

01:56:37.094 --> 01:56:38.195

in your life and then also

01:56:38.255 --> 01:56:39.216

I have my bully proof

01:56:39.236 --> 01:56:41.257

course which we can talk about later but

01:56:41.783 --> 01:56:42.843

I really appreciate your

01:56:42.883 --> 01:56:44.825

perspective on this, John, because,

01:56:45.405 --> 01:56:45.725

you know,

01:56:46.045 --> 01:56:48.747

understanding the inner workings of this,

01:56:49.608 --> 01:56:50.969

I think really helps people

01:56:51.029 --> 01:56:53.090

to identify these behaviors,

01:56:53.130 --> 01:56:54.431

not only in other people,

01:56:54.451 --> 01:56:56.813

but in themselves, too.

01:56:56.933 --> 01:56:58.334

Yeah.

01:56:58.434 --> 01:56:58.774

Yeah.

01:56:58.874 --> 01:56:59.174

Yeah.

01:56:59.234 --> 01:56:59.555

I mean,

01:57:00.815 --> 01:57:03.057

we don't have good understandings

01:57:03.117 --> 01:57:04.258

of mental health.

01:57:05.080 --> 01:57:06.541

and of treatment for mental health.

01:57:07.041 --> 01:57:07.601

And that's part of the

01:57:07.621 --> 01:57:09.382

reason I never actually

01:57:09.402 --> 01:57:12.303

intended to practice as a psychologist.

01:57:13.163 --> 01:57:15.484

I wanted it as I wanted the education.

01:57:15.544 --> 01:57:16.424

I wanted the training.

01:57:16.844 --> 01:57:18.625

I wanted the scholarship, the research,

01:57:19.225 --> 01:57:20.185

the experience,

01:57:20.926 --> 01:57:22.166

but it was only a backup

01:57:22.186 --> 01:57:23.146

for actual career.

01:57:23.186 --> 01:57:24.387

But I felt like I'd be a

01:57:24.467 --> 01:57:26.647

more effective podcast host

01:57:27.048 --> 01:57:28.308

if I got the training and

01:57:28.328 --> 01:57:29.949

the education and it's been

01:57:29.969 --> 01:57:30.589

really useful.

01:57:31.604 --> 01:57:32.945

And I'm grateful when

01:57:33.005 --> 01:57:34.546

anybody is trying to talk

01:57:34.586 --> 01:57:35.567

about mental health because

01:57:35.607 --> 01:57:38.649

we would all do better to

01:57:38.709 --> 01:57:39.869

increase our understanding.

01:57:40.170 --> 01:57:40.290

Yeah.

01:57:40.330 --> 01:57:43.332

And speaking from experience

01:57:43.392 --> 01:57:44.653

as someone who has been

01:57:44.733 --> 01:57:46.554

interviewed by you multiple times,

01:57:47.595 --> 01:57:48.935

I really think that you do

01:57:48.975 --> 01:57:50.316

bring a level of compassion

01:57:50.336 --> 01:57:52.558

and understanding to your work.

01:57:53.131 --> 01:57:57.133

that a lot of other people

01:57:57.173 --> 01:57:58.753

in this space don't really have.

01:57:59.394 --> 01:58:01.114

It's one thing to interview someone.

01:58:01.174 --> 01:58:02.775

It's another thing to

01:58:02.895 --> 01:58:04.356

understand their experience

01:58:04.396 --> 01:58:06.717

and to be able to ask those deeper,

01:58:06.757 --> 01:58:07.937

Unmasking the Shadow: Comparing Lori Daybell and Ruby Franke’s Narcissistic Traits with John Dehlin (MSP)

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