My Faith Deconstruction Journey Made Me Question EVERYTHING!

WEBVTT

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hello beautiful humans

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welcome to the midlife

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revolution i'm your host

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megan connor and today i am

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joined by the lovely lila tuller

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Hi, Lila.

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Hello, Megan.

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I'm so happy to have you here today.

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I've really been looking forward to this.

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I've been really excited about it, too.

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Thank you for having me on.

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Yeah, of course.

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So I first came across Lila

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during my faith

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deconstruction when I was

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going methodically through

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every single episode of the

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LDS discussion series on

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Mormon Stories podcast.

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And I wanted to know more

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about the second anointing.

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And Lila's interview came up in my search.

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And so I listened to your

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Mormon Stories interview.

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I really resonated with so

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much of what you said.

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I think our stories are very

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similar in a lot of ways.

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And then I was delighted to

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see you pop up on a Latter

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Daily Digest panel the other night.

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And so we decided to do this interview.

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So I'm so glad to be

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connected with you now.

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And I want to talk about the

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book that you're working on,

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but can you just tell

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people a little bit about

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yourself and how you got to

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where you are right now?

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Okay.

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Well, you know,

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I was born and raised in the church.

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I lived on the East Coast

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until I was about eight.

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And then my dad got called

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when he was seven,

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got called to be a general authority.

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And so we moved to Salt Lake

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City at that point.

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And, you know,

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I had the typical Mormon upbringing,

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except for that, that my dad was kind of,

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you know,

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he was a well-loved speaker in

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the Brethren.

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You know,

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he was a little bit more fun to

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listen to.

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Because he wasn't typical

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and he was a convert.

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So do you mind telling us

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your dad's name and what

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position he held?

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Yes, his name was Hartman Rector Jr.

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And he was just in the seventies,

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first quorum of the seventies.

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He never ascended any higher than that.

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it's pretty high up in

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mormon leadership sitting

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on the stand during general

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conference right and

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getting to give conference

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talks and what years did he

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serve as a general

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authority well he was

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called in nineteen sixty

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eight i believe i hope i'm

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getting that right nineteen

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sixty eight or nine

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he was made

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emeritus when he turned seventy two

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which was in oh gosh now

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you're asking me to do math

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and stuff sorry about that

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Much later,

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he was made emeritus when he

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was seventy two.

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So he served for probably

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twenty five years or so.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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OK.

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And emeritus, for those who don't know,

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is just basically like it's

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like retirement for general

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authorities where they

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still go around and speak sometimes,

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but they don't have

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official duties for the

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church in general.

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That's right.

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Exactly.

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He still spoke quite a bit,

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but it wasn't official church.

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And do you know if your dad

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ever came to San Antonio by any chance?

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Very possibly.

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He traveled a lot.

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He was always gone.

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That's how I remember my

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childhood with him was that

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he just wasn't around, you know, serving.

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Yeah.

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He was he was speaking all

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over the place and traveling.

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He and my mom traveled a lot

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more than they do now

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because now they have the

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temporary seventies that

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are only called for a short

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period of time and a lot of

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that traveling.

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But then they're done.

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My parents did it for years

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and years and years.

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So they'd be gone for

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usually their trips were about a month,

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a month to six weeks long.

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Yeah,

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I remember you saying that in your

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Mormon Stories interview,

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and I'm just blown away by that.

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So you kiddos,

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while they were gone for a

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month at a time,

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who was taking care of you?

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What was happening?

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Well,

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it started out where my mom would

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kind of have us go to

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different homes in the

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neighborhood and in the ward for a month.

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Like that's a lot to ask someone, Hey,

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will you take my kid for a month?

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You know, it's a lot.

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Um, and I felt like I was a burden.

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I really did.

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Like I got the vibe from the parents.

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So it's like, girl, you know,

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we're going to try to be nice about this,

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but this is really an imposition.

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So that and then I think

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they finally got to the

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point where that was too hard.

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And so they started bringing

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in young married couples

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that would stay and kind of, you know,

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house sit, babysit.

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They do all the things, you know,

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they cook and do all the

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things that my mom, you know,

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should have been there doing.

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But and my dad.

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so they would bring in

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young couples from your

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ward or or people they knew

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in the neighborhood or it

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wasn't usually from our

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ward okay it was usually

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people that I didn't even

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know I got to know them

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because they were there for

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a month but it was

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different like they didn't

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want to burn anyone out so

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they'd have to swap it out

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and go to different and um

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you know I just felt like

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they were always desperately

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trying to find someone they

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could ask to come and do that.

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It was a lot to ask.

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It's a big family.

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Um,

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and just to walk in into a middle of a

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family system and try to

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handle the schedule and just all of it,

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you know?

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Yeah.

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And I'm thinking young couples too.

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So how many siblings did you have?

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So my mom and dad had eight

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children and they adopted one more.

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So, um, nine total.

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And where are you in that group?

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I'm number six.

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So yeah, there were three younger than me.

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Actually, yeah, that's right.

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One of them was the adopted one.

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Yeah.

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So I'm just imagining a

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young couple who doesn't

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have any children,

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who probably doesn't have a

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lot of experience dealing

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with a range of ages,

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which I'm sure that you

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were at whatever time they

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came in and having to

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like you said,

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come into a family system to

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understand all of the

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relational dynamics between the siblings,

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get kids everywhere they had to go,

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and not only that,

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but to care for your

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emotional needs and getting

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you food and clothing and all.

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It just seems I'm feeling

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overwhelmed by that,

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thinking of myself as a

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young person with no

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children coming into that

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dynamic and being expected

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to know how to handle all

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of those things with the parents absent.

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I can't imagine.

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that was i'm sure it was

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really difficult for them

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and of course i'm thinking

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more about myself like this

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sucks but um you know i

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mean they tried to make it

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fun it depended on the

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couple there was always a

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different dynamic with them

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but you know that was just

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something that i don't

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think other people realize

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goes on or went on at the time

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When they would be called on these trips,

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you know, what happened to the kids?

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Yeah,

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so this wasn't vacation at the time

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for your parents.

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They were called on an

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assignment to be gone for a month,

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to go speak in different

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areas and also to see how

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the church was running, right?

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It was your dad's

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responsibility to check up on the leaders,

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to see how things are being done.

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Right.

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And so...

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this was the church taking

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your parents away from your

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family for a month at a

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time and then how long

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would they be home between

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the visits they usually

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went would come back and be

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home for like three months

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and then go again

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OK, so it was a month on,

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three months off.

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And, you know, I'm thinking about you, too,

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you know,

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thinking about my own kids and

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how I was as a kid also

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wanting to have mom and dad

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at home to have conversations,

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to help solve problems,

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to be involved in your

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achievements and your, you know,

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your growing up.

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And that must have been so

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incredibly difficult.

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Yeah.

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I mean, I just, I didn't,

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my dad didn't baptize me.

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Some random guy baptized me.

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Um, you know,

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things like I never with my

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dad was never with me on

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those daddy daughter dates

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back in the day.

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Like, um,

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I got used to keeping my feelings

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and thoughts to myself.

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Like I wasn't going to tell

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this random couple what

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happened at school today.

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Yeah.

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My feelings of it was bad.

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I would just keep it all inside.

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Um,

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I did journal a lot back then.

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Um, but yeah, I mean, it was just,

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it was a sacrifice and, and, you know,

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we thought, well,

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this is what people do for the church.

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You know, this is the sacrifice you make.

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And I think my parents

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looked at it that way.

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You know,

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they were making sacrifice for

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the church.

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They were called to do it and,

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and they probably thought

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that's what they should do.

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And I just, there's a lot,

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there's a lot to ask.

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Yeah.

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So what age were you when he

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became emeritus?

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I was, let's see,

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I was married and had

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several children by then.

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So, yeah.

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So it was your entire growing up and,

00:09:33.014 --> 00:09:33.915

and some of your young

00:09:33.955 --> 00:09:34.975

married life as well that

00:09:35.015 --> 00:09:36.396

your parents were absent.

00:09:36.917 --> 00:09:37.597

Right.

00:09:37.637 --> 00:09:38.518

For a lot of that time.

00:09:38.538 --> 00:09:38.698

Wow.

00:09:39.799 --> 00:09:41.080

And he served as a mission

00:09:41.140 --> 00:09:43.181

president several times.

00:09:43.241 --> 00:09:45.343

He did it three times while I was young.

00:09:45.903 --> 00:09:47.044

So we would move and,

00:09:47.554 --> 00:09:50.236

to that place for like two years,

00:09:50.356 --> 00:09:51.256

two or three years,

00:09:51.296 --> 00:09:52.417

depending on things they

00:09:52.457 --> 00:09:54.479

pull them back out after two years.

00:09:55.299 --> 00:09:56.220

But, um, you know,

00:09:56.240 --> 00:09:57.901

so it was very back and forth,

00:09:57.941 --> 00:09:58.441

back and forth.

00:09:58.481 --> 00:09:59.922

We always came back to Utah,

00:09:59.962 --> 00:10:00.903

back to salt Lake,

00:10:01.723 --> 00:10:03.324

but not always to the same house.

00:10:03.805 --> 00:10:03.905

Um,

00:10:03.945 --> 00:10:05.125

sometimes a completely different

00:10:05.145 --> 00:10:07.587

neighborhood, different schools, um,

00:10:07.647 --> 00:10:09.488

in and out of schools a lot.

00:10:10.289 --> 00:10:10.429

Um,

00:10:10.989 --> 00:10:14.712

I had very weird friendships where it

00:10:14.732 --> 00:10:15.232

was like,

00:10:16.268 --> 00:10:16.969

I'll be your friend,

00:10:16.989 --> 00:10:18.670

but I'm going to be moving in a year.

00:10:19.131 --> 00:10:21.493

I, you know, I was going to be moving.

00:10:22.114 --> 00:10:25.697

And so, yeah, I mean, it was just, I,

00:10:26.058 --> 00:10:27.219

there are much worse.

00:10:27.859 --> 00:10:27.939

I'm,

00:10:27.959 --> 00:10:29.481

I'm complaining about something that I

00:10:29.521 --> 00:10:31.763

know is like mild compared

00:10:31.803 --> 00:10:33.265

to what a lot of people

00:10:33.325 --> 00:10:35.126

have experienced in their childhood.

00:10:35.587 --> 00:10:38.710

I didn't have, um, I wasn't,

00:10:39.370 --> 00:10:40.892

I don't know if I can say essayed.

00:10:41.690 --> 00:10:43.291

Um, or anything like that.

00:10:43.471 --> 00:10:45.112

I think I did experience

00:10:45.332 --> 00:10:47.014

other things that were hard.

00:10:47.854 --> 00:10:50.296

Um, but you know, I know I,

00:10:50.856 --> 00:10:52.397

I escaped a lot of heart,

00:10:52.437 --> 00:10:54.358

really awful things in my childhood.

00:10:54.418 --> 00:10:55.499

So I do too.

00:10:56.436 --> 00:10:57.897

too sad about it, you know?

00:10:57.938 --> 00:10:58.778

Well, yes.

00:10:58.999 --> 00:11:00.880

And I just want to validate

00:11:00.900 --> 00:11:02.122

the fact that having

00:11:02.262 --> 00:11:03.623

parents who are absent from

00:11:03.663 --> 00:11:07.347

your life creates a giant hole, you know,

00:11:07.487 --> 00:11:08.949

and that's no different

00:11:09.549 --> 00:11:11.731

than being betrayed in the

00:11:11.751 --> 00:11:13.894

way of having SA or some

00:11:13.954 --> 00:11:15.115

other type of thing.

00:11:15.155 --> 00:11:17.337

So what you went through is

00:11:17.997 --> 00:11:19.798

was absolutely as traumatic

00:11:19.858 --> 00:11:20.838

as some of the things that

00:11:20.918 --> 00:11:21.618

I went through in my

00:11:21.658 --> 00:11:23.458

childhood because it was an

00:11:23.498 --> 00:11:25.059

abandonment and a betrayal

00:11:25.499 --> 00:11:26.659

by the people who were

00:11:26.699 --> 00:11:28.680

supposed to love and care

00:11:28.720 --> 00:11:29.700

for you and they just

00:11:29.740 --> 00:11:32.561

weren't there yeah I mean

00:11:32.621 --> 00:11:34.041

if when you put it that way

00:11:34.241 --> 00:11:36.122

I can see um I mean we

00:11:36.162 --> 00:11:38.142

can't compare of course

00:11:38.442 --> 00:11:41.443

right yeah trauma is trauma

00:11:41.603 --> 00:11:45.344

but um I do think there is

00:11:45.584 --> 00:11:46.444

there are some that are

00:11:46.851 --> 00:11:47.771

horrific.

00:11:47.791 --> 00:11:48.071

Sure.

00:11:48.371 --> 00:11:48.631

Sure.

00:11:49.392 --> 00:11:51.372

Have you ever come across

00:11:51.452 --> 00:11:53.193

the concept of childhood

00:11:53.233 --> 00:11:55.333

emotional neglect?

00:11:55.393 --> 00:11:55.673

Sure.

00:11:56.154 --> 00:11:56.774

Yeah.

00:11:56.834 --> 00:11:57.034

Yeah.

00:11:57.094 --> 00:11:58.494

So it's kind of, you know, it's,

00:11:58.914 --> 00:12:00.775

it's the concept that like, okay,

00:12:00.795 --> 00:12:02.435

it's easy for me to say if

00:12:02.535 --> 00:12:03.756

I was physically abused,

00:12:03.816 --> 00:12:04.996

it's easy for me to point

00:12:05.016 --> 00:12:06.696

to that and say that was abuse,

00:12:07.357 --> 00:12:08.677

but childhood emotional

00:12:08.717 --> 00:12:10.657

neglect is abusive.

00:12:10.797 --> 00:12:12.558

It's just the absence of a

00:12:12.638 --> 00:12:13.638

something rather than the

00:12:13.698 --> 00:12:15.639

presence of a something, you know?

00:12:15.899 --> 00:12:15.999

Yeah.

00:12:16.079 --> 00:12:16.259

Yeah.

00:12:17.192 --> 00:12:18.393

I get that.

00:12:18.513 --> 00:12:19.553

Yeah.

00:12:19.593 --> 00:12:22.055

So just moving on from your

00:12:22.115 --> 00:12:24.916

growing up parenting experience,

00:12:25.776 --> 00:12:28.298

did you go to college and

00:12:28.458 --> 00:12:29.158

when did you meet your

00:12:29.198 --> 00:12:30.919

husband and take us through

00:12:30.939 --> 00:12:31.940

that time in your life?

00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:33.901

I went to college,

00:12:33.941 --> 00:12:36.642

went to BYU because we had

00:12:36.902 --> 00:12:38.023

free tuition there.

00:12:38.843 --> 00:12:40.825

So when I did that,

00:12:42.766 --> 00:12:44.868

I met the summer prior to

00:12:44.968 --> 00:12:47.070

my first semester at BYU.

00:12:48.211 --> 00:12:50.413

We were moving home from San Diego.

00:12:50.493 --> 00:12:52.174

My dad is the mission president there.

00:12:52.614 --> 00:12:55.437

And we went to Concord,

00:12:55.457 --> 00:12:57.338

California to hang out with

00:12:57.378 --> 00:12:58.699

my sister for a few days.

00:12:59.220 --> 00:13:01.601

And she introduced me to

00:13:01.642 --> 00:13:03.283

this boy in her ward.

00:13:04.539 --> 00:13:06.819

And that's where I met my husband.

00:13:06.859 --> 00:13:08.080

So that was, you know,

00:13:08.160 --> 00:13:09.560

we had this brief little

00:13:09.600 --> 00:13:12.000

whirlwind thing for like nine days.

00:13:12.660 --> 00:13:14.461

And then I went back to salt

00:13:14.501 --> 00:13:16.081

Lake and he stayed in

00:13:16.121 --> 00:13:17.101

California and then we went

00:13:17.161 --> 00:13:18.501

to BYU that fall.

00:13:18.662 --> 00:13:20.122

And that's where we started

00:13:20.182 --> 00:13:22.342

dating in earnest.

00:13:22.602 --> 00:13:27.243

And, um, we kind of, we dated, let's see,

00:13:27.303 --> 00:13:29.103

we got married the following April.

00:13:29.303 --> 00:13:30.364

This was September.

00:13:30.604 --> 00:13:32.464

So, you know, it was pretty quick.

00:13:33.908 --> 00:13:36.029

I was still eighteen when we got married.

00:13:38.269 --> 00:13:39.009

Oops, you're muted.

00:13:39.990 --> 00:13:41.530

Was he a freshman also or

00:13:41.730 --> 00:13:42.691

had he already been?

00:13:44.031 --> 00:13:45.671

He'd been and he had served

00:13:45.711 --> 00:13:47.652

a mission and was back and

00:13:47.692 --> 00:13:49.012

had been back for a year.

00:13:49.613 --> 00:13:50.093

OK.

00:13:50.133 --> 00:13:51.113

He was twenty two.

00:13:51.773 --> 00:13:52.553

I was eighteen,

00:13:52.793 --> 00:13:54.714

almost nineteen when we got married.

00:13:55.645 --> 00:13:55.845

Yeah.

00:13:56.385 --> 00:13:58.767

So that's kind of typical of

00:13:59.207 --> 00:14:00.667

a missionary coming back

00:14:00.687 --> 00:14:01.828

from a mission to be

00:14:01.868 --> 00:14:03.309

married within a year of

00:14:03.369 --> 00:14:04.329

coming back from your mission.

00:14:04.349 --> 00:14:05.810

That's sort of the expectation,

00:14:05.830 --> 00:14:06.410

would you say?

00:14:07.231 --> 00:14:07.971

It was then.

00:14:08.291 --> 00:14:10.272

I think maybe it still is.

00:14:10.952 --> 00:14:14.814

But definitely, yeah, they were told, okay,

00:14:14.834 --> 00:14:15.955

guys, you've done your mission.

00:14:15.975 --> 00:14:16.835

Now you're supposed to go

00:14:16.855 --> 00:14:17.576

home and get married.

00:14:18.116 --> 00:14:18.576

Yeah.

00:14:18.616 --> 00:14:19.677

Waste any time.

00:14:19.717 --> 00:14:19.957

Yeah.

00:14:20.517 --> 00:14:22.438

So what were you studying at BYU?

00:14:23.466 --> 00:14:25.867

I really all I did was GE

00:14:25.927 --> 00:14:27.348

like just I didn't really

00:14:27.408 --> 00:14:28.669

have a major picked or

00:14:28.769 --> 00:14:31.230

anything and and then so I

00:14:31.270 --> 00:14:32.731

only attended for three

00:14:32.791 --> 00:14:34.832

semesters and then I

00:14:34.872 --> 00:14:36.333

dropped out because I had

00:14:36.373 --> 00:14:39.254

my first child and I was I

00:14:39.294 --> 00:14:40.655

was really sick during that

00:14:40.695 --> 00:14:43.076

pregnancy I get my head up

00:14:43.116 --> 00:14:44.657

off the pillow so I didn't

00:14:46.015 --> 00:14:48.476

I quit my job and school.

00:14:48.817 --> 00:14:50.498

I just was sick as a dog.

00:14:51.158 --> 00:14:52.619

So yeah,

00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:55.581

that just began the whole next phase,

00:14:55.601 --> 00:14:56.981

which was many years of

00:14:57.021 --> 00:14:57.902

just raising kids.

00:14:58.262 --> 00:14:58.662

Yeah.

00:14:58.722 --> 00:14:58.962

Yeah.

00:14:59.043 --> 00:15:00.223

So what,

00:15:00.343 --> 00:15:02.044

what job did you have at the time

00:15:02.064 --> 00:15:02.605

before you?

00:15:02.945 --> 00:15:04.666

I worked at the little

00:15:04.706 --> 00:15:07.227

grocery store on ninth East.

00:15:07.247 --> 00:15:09.148

I don't know if you went to BYU.

00:15:09.589 --> 00:15:11.330

I didn't, but my sister lives in the area.

00:15:11.370 --> 00:15:12.430

So I know exactly which

00:15:12.490 --> 00:15:13.371

store you're talking about.

00:15:13.411 --> 00:15:13.611

Yeah.

00:15:13.973 --> 00:15:15.714

It was Carter's, I think,

00:15:15.774 --> 00:15:17.415

market or something back then.

00:15:17.975 --> 00:15:18.616

Carson's.

00:15:18.876 --> 00:15:20.157

Carson's market, I think.

00:15:20.617 --> 00:15:22.838

Anyway, I had a job there as a checker.

00:15:23.719 --> 00:15:26.561

I mean, that's the kind of stuff I was...

00:15:27.434 --> 00:15:29.135

you know, capable of doing back then.

00:15:29.536 --> 00:15:31.437

I was also after I got married,

00:15:31.597 --> 00:15:35.060

I was a secretary to one of

00:15:35.100 --> 00:15:37.321

the professors at BYU for a short time.

00:15:37.341 --> 00:15:38.222

Okay.

00:15:38.622 --> 00:15:40.604

So yeah, I mean, those kind of jobs.

00:15:40.924 --> 00:15:42.685

So before going to BYU,

00:15:42.845 --> 00:15:44.166

did you have some goals and

00:15:44.206 --> 00:15:45.367

dreams and aspirations

00:15:45.407 --> 00:15:46.688

about what you might want

00:15:46.708 --> 00:15:47.829

to do career wise?

00:15:47.849 --> 00:15:49.230

Or was that off the table

00:15:49.270 --> 00:15:50.851

because of the expectation

00:15:50.891 --> 00:15:52.152

to get married and be a mom

00:15:52.192 --> 00:15:53.093

and have kids?

00:15:54.570 --> 00:15:55.530

I would say it was pretty

00:15:55.550 --> 00:15:56.591

much off the table.

00:15:56.911 --> 00:15:57.911

I think, you know,

00:15:58.071 --> 00:15:59.452

I have to give my mom credit.

00:15:59.852 --> 00:15:59.992

Sorry.

00:16:00.052 --> 00:16:04.494

I feel a little drink.

00:16:04.514 --> 00:16:10.477

She tried to convince me to get a degree.

00:16:10.617 --> 00:16:12.117

And I was like, no mom,

00:16:12.317 --> 00:16:13.238

I just want to get married

00:16:13.258 --> 00:16:14.078

and have babies.

00:16:14.438 --> 00:16:15.359

That's what I want to do.

00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:17.159

Just like my older sisters had done.

00:16:17.840 --> 00:16:19.460

Some of them had gotten degrees,

00:16:19.540 --> 00:16:21.681

but they didn't use them.

00:16:21.821 --> 00:16:22.682

They just got married and

00:16:22.722 --> 00:16:23.682

had kids and didn't work.

00:16:24.542 --> 00:16:29.726

So that was, you know, that sounded fun.

00:16:29.766 --> 00:16:31.588

Now I look back and think I

00:16:31.608 --> 00:16:34.450

should have listened to my mom really,

00:16:34.690 --> 00:16:35.891

really helped me later.

00:16:36.412 --> 00:16:37.232

If I would have done that,

00:16:37.713 --> 00:16:39.974

I was interested in science and art.

00:16:41.235 --> 00:16:42.216

Those are my two.

00:16:42.256 --> 00:16:42.937

And I still am.

00:16:43.257 --> 00:16:46.179

Those are my two favorite topics.

00:16:46.380 --> 00:16:48.221

I'm very interested.

00:16:48.321 --> 00:16:52.905

I was really into biology, microbiology.

00:16:53.765 --> 00:16:57.327

anything having to do with, um, geology.

00:16:59.087 --> 00:17:03.389

I loved my, um, um, sorry,

00:17:03.409 --> 00:17:04.270

I'm drawing a blank.

00:17:04.570 --> 00:17:08.532

Um, my class on, um, not astrology,

00:17:08.652 --> 00:17:10.492

astronomy, my astronomy class.

00:17:10.633 --> 00:17:13.794

I was absolutely mesmerized by that.

00:17:14.394 --> 00:17:15.055

I really,

00:17:15.095 --> 00:17:17.896

really liked that whole science topic.

00:17:18.316 --> 00:17:20.657

Um, if I could go back and get a degree,

00:17:20.697 --> 00:17:21.858

it would probably be in that.

00:17:22.498 --> 00:17:22.558

Hmm.

00:17:23.080 --> 00:17:23.700

That's so cool.

00:17:24.181 --> 00:17:25.241

And what are you doing now?

00:17:26.402 --> 00:17:30.363

Now at the moment, um, I am focusing on,

00:17:30.803 --> 00:17:34.105

um, self-publishing, but prior to that,

00:17:34.165 --> 00:17:35.866

you know, I have, I,

00:17:36.006 --> 00:17:38.887

I have done a lot with design and art.

00:17:39.427 --> 00:17:41.728

I have kind of a flair for that.

00:17:42.189 --> 00:17:43.149

So I've been designing

00:17:43.209 --> 00:17:45.650

fabric for several years now,

00:17:45.710 --> 00:17:47.531

since twenty ten, twenty,

00:17:47.711 --> 00:17:48.832

two thousand eight,

00:17:48.872 --> 00:17:49.712

two thousand eight is when

00:17:49.772 --> 00:17:51.753

I first started my first collection.

00:17:52.711 --> 00:17:53.972

Um, and I love,

00:17:54.112 --> 00:17:55.593

I love doing my fabric design.

00:17:55.634 --> 00:17:57.295

That's like a whole side of

00:17:57.375 --> 00:17:59.837

me that a creative thing

00:17:59.857 --> 00:18:02.039

that I just have to have.

00:18:02.639 --> 00:18:02.919

I don't,

00:18:03.140 --> 00:18:04.501

I'm just not happy unless I'm

00:18:04.521 --> 00:18:05.541

creating something.

00:18:06.522 --> 00:18:07.111

Yeah.

00:18:07.669 --> 00:18:09.671

So, um, where do you, where,

00:18:09.771 --> 00:18:11.632

where can your fabrics be found?

00:18:12.974 --> 00:18:13.474

Um, they're,

00:18:13.734 --> 00:18:14.975

they're sold by a company

00:18:15.015 --> 00:18:16.977

called Riley Blake designs.

00:18:17.057 --> 00:18:18.378

That's the manufacturer.

00:18:18.888 --> 00:18:20.429

They're located in Salt Lake,

00:18:22.170 --> 00:18:23.851

but they're sold worldwide.

00:18:23.871 --> 00:18:25.952

So it's kind of online stores.

00:18:26.032 --> 00:18:27.172

Mostly there are some brick

00:18:27.192 --> 00:18:28.233

and mortar stores,

00:18:28.853 --> 00:18:30.794

but like it's everywhere.

00:18:30.874 --> 00:18:33.696

It's in lots of different countries.

00:18:35.657 --> 00:18:36.817

You can't just get it at

00:18:36.837 --> 00:18:38.158

like a Joanne's fabric.

00:18:38.178 --> 00:18:39.319

Okay.

00:18:39.359 --> 00:18:41.840

Like quilting quality fabrics.

00:18:41.880 --> 00:18:43.401

So there, and it's a little more,

00:18:44.412 --> 00:18:44.852

I don't know.

00:18:45.013 --> 00:18:47.515

It's a higher quality and designer.

00:18:47.635 --> 00:18:49.657

So, you know, the price tag's higher.

00:18:49.677 --> 00:18:49.777

Yeah.

00:18:52.539 --> 00:18:54.121

Do they market it under your name?

00:18:54.161 --> 00:18:55.062

Like would somebody know

00:18:55.082 --> 00:18:56.583

that it's a Lila Tuller pattern?

00:18:57.344 --> 00:18:59.085

Yeah, they'll, they market,

00:18:59.385 --> 00:19:01.607

use my name on the selvedge, you know,

00:19:01.627 --> 00:19:02.328

and they'll say,

00:19:02.588 --> 00:19:04.650

this is her collection for, you know,

00:19:04.710 --> 00:19:06.372

the spring or I usually do

00:19:06.412 --> 00:19:08.874

two collections a year with Riley Blake.

00:19:10.215 --> 00:19:11.356

I'm trying to bump that up.

00:19:11.906 --> 00:19:13.627

But that's, yeah,

00:19:13.647 --> 00:19:15.688

I've been doing that for quite a while.

00:19:15.768 --> 00:19:17.669

And my designs are usually

00:19:19.030 --> 00:19:20.811

floral inspired.

00:19:21.652 --> 00:19:22.532

I love flowers.

00:19:23.633 --> 00:19:24.834

And I've been doing flowers

00:19:24.854 --> 00:19:25.474

for a long time.

00:19:25.854 --> 00:19:28.236

I tried to move out of it for a while.

00:19:28.256 --> 00:19:29.496

And they're like, no, no, no, no,

00:19:29.696 --> 00:19:30.577

you stay right there.

00:19:31.477 --> 00:19:32.578

No, you're not going anywhere.

00:19:32.638 --> 00:19:33.459

You don't understand.

00:19:34.559 --> 00:19:35.640

It's sort of like, you know,

00:19:35.680 --> 00:19:36.680

Barnes and Noble building

00:19:36.700 --> 00:19:37.821

their business model around

00:19:38.041 --> 00:19:39.182

selling the Harry Potter books.

00:19:39.202 --> 00:19:39.602

They're like, no,

00:19:39.622 --> 00:19:40.643

you're going to continue to...

00:19:43.143 --> 00:19:43.383

Yeah,

00:19:43.423 --> 00:19:45.446

don't think about retiring anytime soon.

00:19:45.846 --> 00:19:46.026

Well,

00:19:46.086 --> 00:19:47.968

I would be willing to bet that my

00:19:48.029 --> 00:19:50.071

mother and probably also my

00:19:50.171 --> 00:19:52.734

oldest daughter has your

00:19:52.774 --> 00:19:54.696

fabric in her collection.

00:19:54.857 --> 00:19:56.699

My mom was a huge, huge quilter.

00:19:57.419 --> 00:19:58.660

She goes to Houston to the

00:19:58.680 --> 00:20:01.462

quilt show with her sisters every year.

00:20:01.702 --> 00:20:07.767

And she worked at a quilting

00:20:07.827 --> 00:20:10.208

store in the San Antonio area.

00:20:10.228 --> 00:20:13.090

It's actually, I want to say in Kerrville.

00:20:14.251 --> 00:20:18.113

um texas and so she knew all

00:20:18.173 --> 00:20:19.374

of the designer names and

00:20:19.394 --> 00:20:20.414

she was always talking

00:20:20.454 --> 00:20:21.875

about different designers i

00:20:21.915 --> 00:20:23.275

think i heard the name kay

00:20:23.375 --> 00:20:25.957

facet more more times

00:20:25.997 --> 00:20:27.017

growing up than i heard my

00:20:27.097 --> 00:20:28.458

own name um i'm

00:20:28.518 --> 00:20:29.858

exaggerating but you know

00:20:29.918 --> 00:20:31.519

just the fact that i have a

00:20:31.559 --> 00:20:32.620

fabric designer's name in

00:20:32.660 --> 00:20:33.840

my head at all tells you

00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:35.501

how much of a quilter my

00:20:35.541 --> 00:20:38.923

mom is yep i yeah kay facet

00:20:38.983 --> 00:20:41.004

is a famous british

00:20:41.824 --> 00:20:43.552

designer and his fabrics are

00:20:43.652 --> 00:20:46.926

amazing yeah no i i get it beautiful

00:20:47.842 --> 00:20:48.042

Yeah,

00:20:48.122 --> 00:20:51.905

so I actually had a very brief stint

00:20:52.105 --> 00:20:54.406

with quilting.

00:20:54.467 --> 00:20:56.588

My mom enrolled me in IV-H

00:20:56.608 --> 00:20:57.549

when I was a little girl

00:20:58.069 --> 00:20:59.230

and immediately wanted me

00:20:59.290 --> 00:21:00.631

to make my own clothes.

00:21:00.751 --> 00:21:02.012

And she would make dresses

00:21:02.052 --> 00:21:02.912

for my sister and I,

00:21:02.952 --> 00:21:04.253

so she really wanted me to

00:21:04.293 --> 00:21:05.354

be a seamstress.

00:21:05.954 --> 00:21:08.256

And I think because of the

00:21:08.336 --> 00:21:09.717

fact that our relationship

00:21:09.757 --> 00:21:12.259

was very problematic all my

00:21:12.279 --> 00:21:13.119

growing up years,

00:21:13.279 --> 00:21:15.281

I developed a distaste for sewing.

00:21:15.301 --> 00:21:15.401

Yeah.

00:21:16.021 --> 00:21:18.703

Of course, I can see that.

00:21:18.743 --> 00:21:18.823

Yeah.

00:21:18.843 --> 00:21:19.003

Yeah.

00:21:19.263 --> 00:21:21.004

And my my young womanhood

00:21:21.204 --> 00:21:22.525

medallion project,

00:21:22.745 --> 00:21:24.646

my last one was to make a

00:21:24.706 --> 00:21:26.127

quilt because I think I

00:21:26.167 --> 00:21:27.887

chose that because I knew if I did that,

00:21:27.948 --> 00:21:29.168

my mom would like me better.

00:21:31.449 --> 00:21:32.750

I just remember being in the

00:21:32.790 --> 00:21:34.991

middle of that project and thinking,

00:21:35.272 --> 00:21:36.012

this is nuts.

00:21:36.372 --> 00:21:37.613

I just took all this fabric

00:21:37.653 --> 00:21:38.734

and I cut it up into little

00:21:38.754 --> 00:21:39.554

pieces and now I'm going to

00:21:39.614 --> 00:21:40.535

sew it all back together.

00:21:40.575 --> 00:21:41.295

This is insane.

00:21:41.375 --> 00:21:42.196

Why am I doing this?

00:21:43.157 --> 00:21:44.177

I wasn't enjoying it.

00:21:44.297 --> 00:21:45.338

So I never finished it.

00:21:45.398 --> 00:21:46.759

That's kind of a rabbit hole

00:21:46.779 --> 00:21:47.339

for another time.

00:21:47.379 --> 00:21:49.021

I've still told that story other places.

00:21:49.481 --> 00:21:50.602

But the good thing is that

00:21:50.642 --> 00:21:52.963

my oldest daughter has a

00:21:53.003 --> 00:21:54.044

good relationship with my

00:21:54.084 --> 00:21:55.625

mom and she picked up sewing.

00:21:55.645 --> 00:21:56.466

She's actually quite a

00:21:56.506 --> 00:21:57.886

talented seamstress.

00:21:58.327 --> 00:21:59.768

She makes a lot of her own clothes.

00:21:59.788 --> 00:22:01.189

She's made clothes for me before.

00:22:01.809 --> 00:22:02.830

And she kind of has

00:22:02.910 --> 00:22:04.932

aspirations to open a

00:22:05.432 --> 00:22:07.114

fabric shop at some point.

00:22:08.095 --> 00:22:09.296

So we'll have to I'll have

00:22:09.316 --> 00:22:10.657

to introduce the two of you.

00:22:10.797 --> 00:22:14.861

I'm sure you could geek out about fabric.

00:22:14.901 --> 00:22:15.582

Probably.

00:22:15.762 --> 00:22:16.983

Yeah, that's funny.

00:22:17.523 --> 00:22:19.665

I did a lot of sewing and all of that my,

00:22:19.705 --> 00:22:21.727

you know, my whole life.

00:22:22.028 --> 00:22:24.009

I've kind of backed off of it lately.

00:22:25.195 --> 00:22:26.155

Just because I'm interested

00:22:26.195 --> 00:22:27.476

in doing some other things now.

00:22:27.916 --> 00:22:28.976

Yeah, yeah.

00:22:29.036 --> 00:22:30.037

Through stages.

00:22:30.137 --> 00:22:31.677

But I still love to design.

00:22:32.358 --> 00:22:33.858

So I just finished a collection,

00:22:33.898 --> 00:22:35.659

just barely turned it in yesterday.

00:22:36.239 --> 00:22:38.279

So it's an ongoing thing for me.

00:22:38.299 --> 00:22:39.280

That's super exciting.

00:22:39.740 --> 00:22:40.680

Have you ever done any

00:22:40.720 --> 00:22:42.401

designs with ranunculus flowers?

00:22:42.921 --> 00:22:44.161

Oh, I love ranunculus.

00:22:44.201 --> 00:22:44.882

They're my favorite.

00:22:44.902 --> 00:22:45.642

All the time.

00:22:45.922 --> 00:22:47.183

i love them yeah they're my

00:22:47.223 --> 00:22:48.183

favorite too they're just

00:22:48.203 --> 00:22:49.544

the cutest little bundle of

00:22:50.064 --> 00:22:52.065

petals yeah they're just

00:22:52.105 --> 00:22:53.726

cute yeah it seems like

00:22:53.766 --> 00:22:54.947

they never stop blooming

00:22:54.987 --> 00:22:55.887

they just keep blooming and

00:22:55.927 --> 00:22:57.648

blooming and blooming yeah

00:22:57.969 --> 00:23:02.111

it will have such dense heads with petals

00:23:02.631 --> 00:23:03.712

Yeah.

00:23:03.732 --> 00:23:03.912

Well,

00:23:03.952 --> 00:23:05.893

we kind of skipped over all of your

00:23:05.933 --> 00:23:07.874

marriage and child rearing

00:23:07.955 --> 00:23:08.815

years and everything.

00:23:08.855 --> 00:23:09.796

Is there anything that you

00:23:09.816 --> 00:23:11.016

want to go back and revisit

00:23:11.177 --> 00:23:12.958

about that or just

00:23:13.438 --> 00:23:15.399

particular aspects of your

00:23:15.459 --> 00:23:17.581

journey from where you are,

00:23:17.641 --> 00:23:19.102

how you ended up where you

00:23:19.162 --> 00:23:20.342

are and what you're doing now?

00:23:20.643 --> 00:23:21.863

Anything you want to go back over?

00:23:24.065 --> 00:23:27.567

I would just say that my

00:23:27.627 --> 00:23:29.148

experience with the church

00:23:30.429 --> 00:23:31.750

was very fraught.

00:23:32.930 --> 00:23:35.232

I had, I had a firm,

00:23:35.272 --> 00:23:36.734

what I thought was a firm

00:23:36.774 --> 00:23:38.636

testimony that it was true.

00:23:39.236 --> 00:23:41.498

I believed all of the things

00:23:41.659 --> 00:23:42.660

that we were taught,

00:23:43.320 --> 00:23:45.282

but I had a lot of questions.

00:23:45.803 --> 00:23:47.985

And so I'm kind of a, um,

00:23:48.005 --> 00:23:49.206

what do you call it?

00:23:49.386 --> 00:23:51.048

A inquisitive person.

00:23:51.788 --> 00:23:54.091

I had a lot of things on my shelf.

00:23:54.131 --> 00:23:54.391

You know,

00:23:54.411 --> 00:23:56.333

we talk about the proverbial shelf.

00:23:57.091 --> 00:23:58.271

mine was really heavy

00:23:58.792 --> 00:23:59.892

because I would keep saying,

00:23:59.992 --> 00:24:01.012

this doesn't make sense.

00:24:01.752 --> 00:24:02.973

I can't deal with this right now.

00:24:04.513 --> 00:24:05.814

I got to raise my kids and I

00:24:05.834 --> 00:24:06.334

got to do this,

00:24:06.394 --> 00:24:08.635

but this doesn't make sense.

00:24:08.675 --> 00:24:09.615

And I don't like it.

00:24:10.435 --> 00:24:12.156

I didn't like the way women were treated.

00:24:12.316 --> 00:24:14.116

I didn't like that.

00:24:14.676 --> 00:24:14.817

We,

00:24:15.097 --> 00:24:17.637

the temple ceremony where we promised

00:24:17.657 --> 00:24:19.118

to obey because I had to do

00:24:19.158 --> 00:24:22.339

the obey part and I had to do, you know,

00:24:22.359 --> 00:24:22.639

with the,

00:24:23.416 --> 00:24:24.737

penalties and everything.

00:24:24.797 --> 00:24:25.837

And I didn't like that.

00:24:25.857 --> 00:24:27.998

I didn't like any of it, that stuff.

00:24:28.579 --> 00:24:29.039

And I thought,

00:24:29.159 --> 00:24:30.720

I'm going to talk to God someday.

00:24:30.780 --> 00:24:31.560

We're going to have a sit

00:24:31.600 --> 00:24:32.781

down chat and say,

00:24:33.021 --> 00:24:36.223

why did you set it up like this?

00:24:36.263 --> 00:24:37.724

This just, this is horrible.

00:24:38.764 --> 00:24:40.465

But I still wasn't making

00:24:40.565 --> 00:24:43.006

room for maybe it's not true.

00:24:43.787 --> 00:24:44.987

You know, it was like,

00:24:45.468 --> 00:24:46.588

I had to believe that it

00:24:46.628 --> 00:24:47.849

was true of my parents.

00:24:48.968 --> 00:24:50.449

believed it so heartily.

00:24:50.549 --> 00:24:53.210

My dad, you know, he was a convert.

00:24:53.250 --> 00:24:54.130

My mom was too.

00:24:54.711 --> 00:24:57.392

And they were so such

00:24:57.612 --> 00:24:59.993

missionaries in their, their soul.

00:25:00.413 --> 00:25:01.934

They just felt so strongly

00:25:01.954 --> 00:25:02.774

that they had found the

00:25:02.814 --> 00:25:06.156

truth that I just believed them.

00:25:07.779 --> 00:25:09.440

but there were things that I did not,

00:25:10.060 --> 00:25:11.000

that didn't sit well.

00:25:11.760 --> 00:25:14.361

So I fought against a lot of it.

00:25:14.601 --> 00:25:14.781

Um,

00:25:15.041 --> 00:25:17.422

I had a hard time being submissive to

00:25:17.442 --> 00:25:18.082

my husband.

00:25:18.102 --> 00:25:19.863

I'll just put it that way.

00:25:21.723 --> 00:25:23.464

You know, we just didn't, we,

00:25:23.704 --> 00:25:26.125

it was Rocky because he was

00:25:26.185 --> 00:25:28.165

raised both sides of his

00:25:28.205 --> 00:25:29.626

family were died in the

00:25:29.646 --> 00:25:31.186

wool Mormons and very

00:25:31.506 --> 00:25:34.467

traditional trad wives on all sides.

00:25:34.647 --> 00:25:36.388

And his mother was very traditional.

00:25:36.628 --> 00:25:36.748

Um,

00:25:37.088 --> 00:25:39.352

And so she didn't put on a

00:25:39.392 --> 00:25:41.935

pair of pants until like,

00:25:43.758 --> 00:25:46.261

or something like that.

00:25:46.301 --> 00:25:47.283

Wow.

00:25:47.443 --> 00:25:50.107

And little slippers all day long.

00:25:50.588 --> 00:25:50.908

Wow.

00:25:51.168 --> 00:25:52.090

She was Betty Crocker.

00:25:53.175 --> 00:25:54.055

A lovely woman.

00:25:54.115 --> 00:25:54.976

Please don't get me wrong.

00:25:55.176 --> 00:25:58.099

A beautiful woman and a wonderful person.

00:25:58.739 --> 00:26:00.541

I adored her in so many ways.

00:26:01.081 --> 00:26:04.905

But she was so undaunted.

00:26:05.145 --> 00:26:07.107

And so they had her speak

00:26:07.207 --> 00:26:08.148

all the time to the young

00:26:08.188 --> 00:26:10.149

women and to the Relief Society.

00:26:10.169 --> 00:26:12.091

She was just a stalwart.

00:26:12.651 --> 00:26:14.193

And even more than my mother.

00:26:14.213 --> 00:26:15.614

Because my mom was a little bit...

00:26:17.267 --> 00:26:17.867

She was like me.

00:26:17.887 --> 00:26:19.308

She would push back on things and say, no,

00:26:19.328 --> 00:26:19.529

leave that.

00:26:19.549 --> 00:26:23.431

No, I won't.

00:26:23.451 --> 00:26:24.532

So I think there is that

00:26:24.652 --> 00:26:26.954

aspect of when you're

00:26:27.014 --> 00:26:28.595

raised by your parents to

00:26:28.635 --> 00:26:29.816

believe a certain way,

00:26:29.976 --> 00:26:31.597

there is that aspect of like, well,

00:26:31.617 --> 00:26:32.537

these are my parents.

00:26:32.597 --> 00:26:33.558

They know everything.

00:26:33.938 --> 00:26:35.760

Until you reach a certain age,

00:26:36.380 --> 00:26:37.281

you know until you get to be

00:26:37.301 --> 00:26:38.742

a teenager you go along

00:26:38.782 --> 00:26:39.702

with a lot of what they

00:26:40.003 --> 00:26:41.604

teach you because of that

00:26:41.644 --> 00:26:42.725

dynamic of like well my

00:26:42.765 --> 00:26:43.525

parents have been around

00:26:43.565 --> 00:26:44.526

longer than me they know

00:26:44.686 --> 00:26:46.207

they know things they've

00:26:46.247 --> 00:26:48.729

chosen this life over other

00:26:48.809 --> 00:26:50.951

possibilities so this must

00:26:50.991 --> 00:26:51.891

be the right way to do

00:26:51.931 --> 00:26:54.273

things yeah you trust them

00:26:54.853 --> 00:26:56.635

yeah plus that they know better than you

00:26:57.395 --> 00:26:58.795

right there's sort of this

00:26:58.835 --> 00:27:00.216

tacit understanding that

00:27:00.256 --> 00:27:01.676

like if there was a better

00:27:01.716 --> 00:27:03.016

way to do things my parents

00:27:03.056 --> 00:27:05.037

surely would know right

00:27:05.617 --> 00:27:07.957

yeah i know so we didn't

00:27:07.997 --> 00:27:10.258

realize that they could

00:27:10.378 --> 00:27:12.618

possibly just be a victim

00:27:12.918 --> 00:27:15.779

of um brainwashing or any

00:27:15.979 --> 00:27:17.159

you know messaging or

00:27:17.199 --> 00:27:19.899

conditioning so we ended up

00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:21.600

all of us that are you know

00:27:21.620 --> 00:27:22.740

on the other side now

00:27:23.706 --> 00:27:25.767

We were all conditioned to go along,

00:27:26.227 --> 00:27:28.087

even if it didn't feel right.

00:27:28.868 --> 00:27:31.328

There was no room for boundary drawing.

00:27:31.748 --> 00:27:34.189

I was never taught about boundaries.

00:27:34.249 --> 00:27:34.609

Were you?

00:27:35.209 --> 00:27:37.470

Nope, absolutely not.

00:27:37.490 --> 00:27:38.670

That wasn't even a word.

00:27:38.991 --> 00:27:40.431

That wasn't a concept.

00:27:41.496 --> 00:27:44.119

And nor was consent really, right?

00:27:44.159 --> 00:27:46.042

Because there was just the

00:27:46.142 --> 00:27:47.744

expectation of the things

00:27:47.804 --> 00:27:48.985

that the boxes that you

00:27:49.005 --> 00:27:50.607

check along the Mormon path,

00:27:51.468 --> 00:27:52.529

the expectation is that

00:27:52.549 --> 00:27:53.430

you're going to be on this

00:27:53.470 --> 00:27:54.372

path and you're going to do

00:27:54.412 --> 00:27:55.173

all of those things.

00:27:55.193 --> 00:27:57.676

So there was never a conversation about,

00:27:58.156 --> 00:27:59.518

do you want to do this?

00:27:59.858 --> 00:28:01.819

no and even now that they've

00:28:01.859 --> 00:28:02.760

sort of changed the

00:28:02.800 --> 00:28:04.140

language around baptisms i

00:28:04.180 --> 00:28:05.181

thought it was so hilarious

00:28:05.201 --> 00:28:07.002

when they started saying my

00:28:07.042 --> 00:28:08.082

child is choosing to be

00:28:08.122 --> 00:28:09.543

baptized rather than my

00:28:09.583 --> 00:28:10.904

child is getting baptized

00:28:11.324 --> 00:28:12.405

and i was like you know

00:28:12.545 --> 00:28:13.965

eight-year-old kid doesn't

00:28:14.005 --> 00:28:17.347

have the capacity to make a

00:28:17.387 --> 00:28:18.808

choice that differentiates

00:28:18.828 --> 00:28:19.949

them so much from their

00:28:19.989 --> 00:28:21.790

family so it's still not

00:28:21.850 --> 00:28:23.350

really a choice even at the

00:28:23.410 --> 00:28:24.131

age of eight no they're

00:28:24.631 --> 00:28:25.772

still conditioned to make

00:28:25.812 --> 00:28:28.173

that choice exactly yeah

00:28:28.613 --> 00:28:30.215

So you're right about that.

00:28:30.415 --> 00:28:33.017

There really isn't consent for minors.

00:28:33.377 --> 00:28:34.779

That's not a real thing.

00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:35.940

Right.

00:28:35.960 --> 00:28:38.282

So even though I have a

00:28:38.322 --> 00:28:40.163

nephew who absolutely would

00:28:40.203 --> 00:28:40.964

not be baptized,

00:28:40.984 --> 00:28:42.385

which I'm really proud of him for that.

00:28:42.465 --> 00:28:43.646

But, you know, for him,

00:28:43.986 --> 00:28:45.508

most kids are going to go

00:28:45.548 --> 00:28:46.829

along with what they're

00:28:46.849 --> 00:28:48.130

told and what their friends

00:28:48.170 --> 00:28:49.771

are doing and what their

00:28:49.832 --> 00:28:51.193

parents tell them is right.

00:28:51.293 --> 00:28:51.493

Right.

00:28:52.091 --> 00:28:53.934

So yeah, we,

00:28:54.114 --> 00:28:56.137

I was a victim of all of that.

00:28:56.377 --> 00:28:57.178

The conditioning,

00:28:57.298 --> 00:28:58.700

my parents bought the whole

00:28:58.740 --> 00:29:03.807

thing pretty much, um, without con well,

00:29:04.579 --> 00:29:06.259

My dad would push back on some things,

00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:08.380

but really he just would do

00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:09.580

it his own way.

00:29:10.060 --> 00:29:12.481

He still believed a hundred percent.

00:29:13.201 --> 00:29:14.941

Um, he was a true believer.

00:29:15.522 --> 00:29:17.262

This is before the internet, you know,

00:29:17.562 --> 00:29:18.222

this is my,

00:29:18.402 --> 00:29:19.542

my parents joined back in the

00:29:19.582 --> 00:29:21.883

fifties at one, I believe.

00:29:23.723 --> 00:29:25.244

So they, uh,

00:29:25.304 --> 00:29:26.424

my mom was pregnant with her

00:29:26.524 --> 00:29:27.644

third baby and the

00:29:27.944 --> 00:29:29.265

missionaries attracted them out.

00:29:30.145 --> 00:29:30.665

Um, but.

00:29:31.874 --> 00:29:32.894

They, you know,

00:29:32.914 --> 00:29:34.615

they didn't know about polygamy.

00:29:34.695 --> 00:29:36.355

They didn't know all the problems.

00:29:36.375 --> 00:29:36.955

Oh, wow.

00:29:36.995 --> 00:29:39.135

And they couldn't find out for many,

00:29:39.175 --> 00:29:41.676

many years, any of that.

00:29:41.716 --> 00:29:42.976

So your parents were young

00:29:43.016 --> 00:29:44.136

married people with their

00:29:44.176 --> 00:29:47.957

first child when, or did you say third?

00:29:48.157 --> 00:29:48.857

Third, yeah.

00:29:48.997 --> 00:29:49.777

Yeah.

00:29:50.117 --> 00:29:51.038

So they had three young

00:29:51.098 --> 00:29:52.358

children and the

00:29:52.398 --> 00:29:53.758

missionaries tracked them out.

00:29:54.398 --> 00:29:55.158

And I'm sure the

00:29:55.198 --> 00:29:56.599

missionaries didn't teach

00:29:56.619 --> 00:29:58.659

them about polygamy or polygamy.

00:29:59.079 --> 00:30:00.580

about any of the problematic

00:30:00.620 --> 00:30:02.202

things that even back in

00:30:02.222 --> 00:30:03.723

the fifties that people

00:30:03.763 --> 00:30:05.504

knew were somewhat problematic.

00:30:06.385 --> 00:30:07.386

And, you know,

00:30:07.506 --> 00:30:08.727

I can identify with that

00:30:08.767 --> 00:30:10.348

somewhat because my grandmother,

00:30:10.388 --> 00:30:11.149

my dad's mom,

00:30:11.269 --> 00:30:13.211

was tracted out here in San Antonio

00:30:15.152 --> 00:30:16.734

Probably it was more like

00:30:17.314 --> 00:30:18.956

the sixties ish or so.

00:30:20.497 --> 00:30:21.077

But again,

00:30:21.918 --> 00:30:23.900

not the internet wasn't available.

00:30:24.040 --> 00:30:24.861

There wasn't, you know,

00:30:24.901 --> 00:30:27.343

there weren't anti-Mormon literature.

00:30:27.423 --> 00:30:28.344

There wasn't anti-Mormon

00:30:28.384 --> 00:30:29.645

literature out there for

00:30:29.685 --> 00:30:31.647

people to read any opposing view.

00:30:32.407 --> 00:30:35.468

So what the missionaries did

00:30:35.508 --> 00:30:37.449

was they came in and shared

00:30:37.489 --> 00:30:38.749

this faithful experience

00:30:38.789 --> 00:30:40.290

and probably told an

00:30:40.330 --> 00:30:42.490

emotional story or their testimony.

00:30:43.271 --> 00:30:44.251

And I think back then

00:30:44.371 --> 00:30:45.912

probably people were a lot

00:30:46.012 --> 00:30:48.292

more trusting of those

00:30:48.332 --> 00:30:50.553

types of experiences,

00:30:50.793 --> 00:30:52.654

that someone is being genuine with you,

00:30:52.974 --> 00:30:54.454

they feel this very deeply.

00:30:55.035 --> 00:30:56.695

So I can't imagine there

00:30:56.715 --> 00:30:58.436

being a lot of pushback

00:30:59.276 --> 00:31:00.277

unless you were raised in

00:31:00.317 --> 00:31:02.099

another tradition or you

00:31:02.119 --> 00:31:03.260

know taught that mormonism

00:31:03.280 --> 00:31:04.421

was false or something like

00:31:04.441 --> 00:31:06.923

that right right and i

00:31:06.943 --> 00:31:09.185

think back then i mean we

00:31:09.245 --> 00:31:10.706

didn't have brene brown we

00:31:10.726 --> 00:31:12.127

didn't have we didn't have

00:31:12.568 --> 00:31:15.170

you know uh the people that

00:31:15.210 --> 00:31:18.373

are speaking out about um

00:31:20.054 --> 00:31:22.016

systems that control and

00:31:22.036 --> 00:31:23.137

they weren't talking about

00:31:23.537 --> 00:31:25.759

um being self-aware they weren't

00:31:26.004 --> 00:31:27.605

talking about how emotion

00:31:27.665 --> 00:31:29.867

can affect your judgment

00:31:30.868 --> 00:31:32.329

none of these ideas if they

00:31:32.369 --> 00:31:33.670

were out there they weren't

00:31:34.311 --> 00:31:35.512

there was no internet so

00:31:35.552 --> 00:31:37.313

you had to go out and buy a

00:31:37.373 --> 00:31:39.275

book somewhere about it

00:31:39.775 --> 00:31:43.058

right why a library it just

00:31:43.098 --> 00:31:45.780

wasn't widely um accepted

00:31:45.920 --> 00:31:48.782

or taught at all there so

00:31:49.023 --> 00:31:50.544

what you had were like

00:31:51.701 --> 00:31:53.942

Oral Roberts televangelists

00:31:54.102 --> 00:31:56.203

out there that were using

00:31:56.924 --> 00:31:58.825

emotion to get back,

00:31:59.305 --> 00:32:00.725

get people to join their church.

00:32:00.805 --> 00:32:02.546

And so the church did the same thing.

00:32:02.927 --> 00:32:05.228

They said, are you feeling something?

00:32:05.388 --> 00:32:07.049

You know, they tell this emotional story.

00:32:07.089 --> 00:32:08.189

If you feel something,

00:32:08.249 --> 00:32:10.390

that's the spirit telling you it's true.

00:32:11.151 --> 00:32:12.791

Well, people just would buy that.

00:32:12.831 --> 00:32:14.152

They didn't even question it.

00:32:14.824 --> 00:32:16.187

Now people will go, wait a minute.

00:32:16.267 --> 00:32:17.690

Are you trying to control me?

00:32:18.111 --> 00:32:19.715

Is this some, you know, because we're,

00:32:19.755 --> 00:32:21.378

we're taught at least I

00:32:21.418 --> 00:32:23.864

feel like there it's more available now.

00:32:24.702 --> 00:32:26.383

yeah and back then people

00:32:26.423 --> 00:32:27.503

weren't talking about their

00:32:27.543 --> 00:32:30.304

emotions and so for someone

00:32:30.324 --> 00:32:32.105

to to call attention to a

00:32:32.205 --> 00:32:33.226

feeling that you were

00:32:33.266 --> 00:32:35.446

having during a missionary

00:32:35.507 --> 00:32:36.767

lesson that was that was a

00:32:36.867 --> 00:32:39.328

new thing yeah yeah i think

00:32:39.368 --> 00:32:40.429

people would resonate and

00:32:40.469 --> 00:32:41.889

go oh my gosh i am feeling

00:32:41.949 --> 00:32:43.490

something you know it's

00:32:43.570 --> 00:32:44.730

probably just told me a

00:32:44.750 --> 00:32:45.971

really heartwarming story

00:32:47.970 --> 00:32:48.731

And the music,

00:32:48.771 --> 00:32:51.332

like when I watch something now, I'm like,

00:32:51.352 --> 00:32:52.673

this is so manipulative.

00:32:52.693 --> 00:32:55.954

They've got this swelling music playing.

00:32:56.354 --> 00:32:58.776

There's this, you know, the, the voice,

00:32:59.016 --> 00:33:00.316

the way that it it's,

00:33:00.376 --> 00:33:02.037

there's just so much now

00:33:02.057 --> 00:33:03.318

that I'm more aware of.

00:33:03.358 --> 00:33:05.619

Whereas back then, I think this was,

00:33:06.299 --> 00:33:07.080

you know, there,

00:33:07.100 --> 00:33:09.621

this is when all the cults were thriving,

00:33:10.081 --> 00:33:15.484

like the Mooneys and all these cults were,

00:33:15.544 --> 00:33:15.744

were,

00:33:16.329 --> 00:33:17.910

really thriving people were

00:33:17.950 --> 00:33:20.592

joining right and left um

00:33:20.892 --> 00:33:23.674

it was kind of a time where

00:33:23.835 --> 00:33:26.396

mormonism was just it was

00:33:26.436 --> 00:33:28.958

growing by leaps and bounds

00:33:29.018 --> 00:33:32.000

yeah joining um yeah and

00:33:32.040 --> 00:33:33.301

people didn't know the cult

00:33:33.341 --> 00:33:34.782

word back then really they

00:33:34.802 --> 00:33:35.483

didn't really know what a

00:33:35.543 --> 00:33:36.824

cult was or that it was

00:33:36.884 --> 00:33:39.946

harmful right no yeah it

00:33:39.986 --> 00:33:40.947

wasn't even really talked

00:33:40.987 --> 00:33:43.088

about um there wasn't the

00:33:43.609 --> 00:33:45.030

the app you know the after

00:33:45.535 --> 00:33:47.697

what happened after, you know,

00:33:47.777 --> 00:33:48.858

and all these people died,

00:33:49.278 --> 00:33:50.499

that's when people were like,

00:33:50.599 --> 00:33:51.680

hold on a sec,

00:33:51.700 --> 00:33:53.341

maybe we need to take a look at this.

00:33:54.202 --> 00:33:55.984

But up until then, you know,

00:33:56.999 --> 00:33:58.259

people just lived in kind of

00:33:58.299 --> 00:34:00.120

rose colored glass world, you know?

00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:03.081

And so, um, I think my parents got,

00:34:03.281 --> 00:34:05.282

my dad was always seeking for truth.

00:34:05.582 --> 00:34:06.742

That was his mantra.

00:34:07.182 --> 00:34:08.543

He wanted to find the truth.

00:34:09.323 --> 00:34:09.643

Um,

00:34:09.723 --> 00:34:11.804

and so when the missionaries came and

00:34:11.824 --> 00:34:12.824

they gave him the book of

00:34:12.884 --> 00:34:15.485

Mormon and they told him their stories,

00:34:15.505 --> 00:34:15.705

um,

00:34:16.448 --> 00:34:18.310

He just bought it.

00:34:18.851 --> 00:34:21.514

And so we, as his kids,

00:34:22.315 --> 00:34:23.377

we're not allowed to

00:34:23.497 --> 00:34:26.040

question it because he paid the price.

00:34:26.100 --> 00:34:27.342

He had found it for us.

00:34:27.682 --> 00:34:27.882

Right.

00:34:27.902 --> 00:34:29.124

So we were just to go along.

00:34:30.405 --> 00:34:32.508

And I believe that I believed him.

00:34:34.716 --> 00:34:36.217

That makes a lot of sense, actually,

00:34:36.257 --> 00:34:38.338

to have, you know, at that time,

00:34:38.778 --> 00:34:40.058

the patriarch of the home

00:34:40.579 --> 00:34:42.259

has found the truth that he

00:34:42.299 --> 00:34:43.600

searched for his whole life.

00:34:44.060 --> 00:34:46.121

He made this life altering

00:34:46.161 --> 00:34:47.801

decision and expected his

00:34:47.841 --> 00:34:49.102

kids to go along with it.

00:34:49.902 --> 00:34:51.564

And it actually it really

00:34:51.624 --> 00:34:52.705

resonates with me, too,

00:34:52.745 --> 00:34:53.966

because that's how my

00:34:54.046 --> 00:34:55.848

ancestors joined the church as well.

00:34:55.888 --> 00:34:57.310

And that's how it got passed

00:34:57.330 --> 00:34:58.451

down through generations.

00:34:58.991 --> 00:35:00.733

My fifth great grandfather

00:35:00.793 --> 00:35:01.774

joined the church in

00:35:01.794 --> 00:35:03.036

Missouri in eighteen thirty.

00:35:03.056 --> 00:35:03.796

He was one of the first

00:35:03.836 --> 00:35:05.538

people to be baptized in Missouri.

00:35:06.339 --> 00:35:06.559

And.

00:35:07.580 --> 00:35:09.242

He experienced the hardship

00:35:09.422 --> 00:35:11.865

of leaving his home,

00:35:12.746 --> 00:35:14.668

selling his farm at a loss

00:35:14.888 --> 00:35:16.470

or at less than market

00:35:16.510 --> 00:35:18.071

value because he had to do

00:35:18.111 --> 00:35:20.454

it quickly to then give the

00:35:20.474 --> 00:35:21.275

money to the church,

00:35:21.395 --> 00:35:22.396

move with the saints to

00:35:22.416 --> 00:35:23.377

their next location.

00:35:24.478 --> 00:35:26.680

And that happened several

00:35:26.740 --> 00:35:27.820

times over the course of

00:35:27.880 --> 00:35:29.161

just a few years.

00:35:29.782 --> 00:35:30.822

And then finally,

00:35:30.862 --> 00:35:32.143

when the extermination

00:35:32.203 --> 00:35:33.965

order was put out in Missouri,

00:35:34.565 --> 00:35:35.806

where all the Mormons had

00:35:35.846 --> 00:35:38.648

to leave the state, he went with them,

00:35:38.768 --> 00:35:40.469

him and his small family.

00:35:41.089 --> 00:35:42.090

And because of their

00:35:42.170 --> 00:35:44.391

trudging around in the snow and the cold,

00:35:44.552 --> 00:35:45.612

trying to find a place to

00:35:45.652 --> 00:35:46.853

live or a place to stay,

00:35:47.393 --> 00:35:48.554

he got sick and died of

00:35:48.614 --> 00:35:49.875

exposure eventually.

00:35:51.116 --> 00:35:52.357

And on his deathbed,

00:35:52.417 --> 00:35:53.718

he said to his children,

00:35:54.398 --> 00:35:56.141

promise me that you will

00:35:56.181 --> 00:35:58.303

stay faithful and that you

00:35:58.323 --> 00:35:59.645

will marry someone in the

00:35:59.685 --> 00:36:02.248

faith and so they took up

00:36:02.289 --> 00:36:03.871

that legacy and carried it

00:36:03.911 --> 00:36:05.312

with them and then when his

00:36:05.373 --> 00:36:07.816

son died on his deathbed he

00:36:07.856 --> 00:36:09.578

said tell my children that

00:36:09.618 --> 00:36:10.459

if they don't pay their

00:36:10.499 --> 00:36:12.502

tithing they cannot come where I'm going

00:36:13.968 --> 00:36:15.169

And that's the legacy that

00:36:15.189 --> 00:36:15.989

got passed down.

00:36:16.229 --> 00:36:18.231

And so this is how it, this is how it.

00:36:18.251 --> 00:36:19.071

Yeah, exactly.

00:36:19.411 --> 00:36:22.293

Yeah.

00:36:23.254 --> 00:36:23.674

Yeah.

00:36:23.714 --> 00:36:24.855

So that's how it happens.

00:36:24.895 --> 00:36:25.335

You're right.

00:36:25.535 --> 00:36:27.236

It just perpetuates itself

00:36:27.676 --> 00:36:28.857

through the generations.

00:36:29.037 --> 00:36:30.538

And the less somebody is

00:36:30.678 --> 00:36:33.660

really gutsy to step away

00:36:33.700 --> 00:36:35.921

from that and break that chain.

00:36:37.282 --> 00:36:39.644

And that person will be loved and hated,

00:36:40.244 --> 00:36:41.285

you know, problem.

00:36:42.405 --> 00:36:43.426

My oldest brother,

00:36:44.193 --> 00:36:46.714

left the church first and he

00:36:46.754 --> 00:36:50.235

had been all in i mean it

00:36:50.275 --> 00:36:54.076

was a such a shock when

00:36:54.096 --> 00:36:57.637

that happened i was married

00:36:57.937 --> 00:37:00.337

i had i think one or two

00:37:00.377 --> 00:37:02.718

kids no maybe three kids by

00:37:02.758 --> 00:37:04.459

that time so in your

00:37:04.499 --> 00:37:06.219

twenties late twenties

00:37:06.259 --> 00:37:08.059

maybe yeah yeah it would

00:37:08.079 --> 00:37:09.640

have been late twenties um

00:37:10.899 --> 00:37:11.299

He,

00:37:12.340 --> 00:37:15.742

he and his wife first moved to Hawaii

00:37:15.842 --> 00:37:17.483

and kind of stopped going to church.

00:37:18.043 --> 00:37:19.784

And then he completely went

00:37:19.884 --> 00:37:21.685

off the rails and he moved away,

00:37:21.825 --> 00:37:22.746

left his family.

00:37:23.186 --> 00:37:25.287

He moved to Russia.

00:37:25.928 --> 00:37:26.328

Wow.

00:37:26.488 --> 00:37:28.889

Started a whole new life and

00:37:29.410 --> 00:37:30.871

basically married a girl

00:37:30.891 --> 00:37:32.572

that was the same age as his daughter.

00:37:33.392 --> 00:37:33.772

Wow.

00:37:34.393 --> 00:37:35.893

Lived a open marriage.

00:37:36.674 --> 00:37:38.375

And now he's seventy five.

00:37:38.880 --> 00:37:40.001

And she's moved on to a

00:37:40.041 --> 00:37:42.343

younger guy because she's so young.

00:37:42.363 --> 00:37:43.324

Yeah.

00:37:43.384 --> 00:37:44.625

He's by himself now.

00:37:45.425 --> 00:37:47.307

So, you know, do you look at that and go,

00:37:47.467 --> 00:37:49.308

Hmm, that didn't work out so well for you,

00:37:49.849 --> 00:37:50.790

but you know,

00:37:50.870 --> 00:37:52.791

he was the first one to break away.

00:37:52.971 --> 00:37:55.253

And then, you know, one by one,

00:37:56.094 --> 00:37:58.035

we still have out of all those kids,

00:37:58.095 --> 00:37:58.676

nine kids,

00:37:58.696 --> 00:38:01.238

there's still three sisters

00:38:01.298 --> 00:38:03.019

that are in the church.

00:38:04.681 --> 00:38:05.101

Okay.

00:38:05.341 --> 00:38:07.203

Is I would say,

00:38:07.992 --> 00:38:09.813

allegedly in the church i'm

00:38:09.853 --> 00:38:10.913

not even sure she's a

00:38:10.973 --> 00:38:16.115

prepper but i don't know so

00:38:16.776 --> 00:38:17.736

when your brother left the

00:38:17.776 --> 00:38:18.996

church did you initially

00:38:19.056 --> 00:38:20.897

see it as a cautionary tale

00:38:21.137 --> 00:38:22.158

of like look like life is

00:38:22.178 --> 00:38:24.759

falling apart oh yes we all

00:38:24.799 --> 00:38:26.299

thought of it that way yeah

00:38:27.320 --> 00:38:28.700

yeah and it did fall apart

00:38:28.900 --> 00:38:30.181

and he just went off on his

00:38:30.301 --> 00:38:31.501

own and you know really

00:38:31.622 --> 00:38:32.682

like we were all like don't

00:38:33.186 --> 00:38:34.187

ever do that.

00:38:34.327 --> 00:38:36.168

You know, that's a horrible thing to do.

00:38:36.728 --> 00:38:38.129

And I do think he probably

00:38:38.169 --> 00:38:39.209

could have handled it better.

00:38:39.409 --> 00:38:40.870

Like don't just up and leave

00:38:40.890 --> 00:38:41.730

your whole family.

00:38:41.870 --> 00:38:43.671

They did four children

00:38:43.791 --> 00:38:45.152

because he was sterile.

00:38:45.472 --> 00:38:47.833

They were adopted and he

00:38:47.893 --> 00:38:49.354

left in the middle of the

00:38:49.434 --> 00:38:51.015

last one coming over from

00:38:51.644 --> 00:38:52.705

Czechoslovakia.

00:38:52.865 --> 00:38:54.828

He hadn't even met the kid and he left.

00:38:54.888 --> 00:38:58.352

And you don't have to answer

00:38:58.372 --> 00:38:59.413

this if it's too personal,

00:38:59.453 --> 00:39:01.355

but was it sort of a faith

00:39:01.395 --> 00:39:02.577

crisis that caused him to

00:39:02.617 --> 00:39:03.578

leave his family or were

00:39:03.598 --> 00:39:05.200

there other problems that were going on?

00:39:06.413 --> 00:39:08.514

I think it was definitely a faith crisis.

00:39:08.894 --> 00:39:09.175

Okay.

00:39:09.595 --> 00:39:10.816

And so his wife wanted to

00:39:10.856 --> 00:39:12.357

stay in the church and

00:39:12.397 --> 00:39:14.798

maybe that's the reason they split up.

00:39:14.858 --> 00:39:15.238

Yeah.

00:39:15.438 --> 00:39:16.339

She just didn't want,

00:39:16.439 --> 00:39:17.460

he wanted to have an open

00:39:17.500 --> 00:39:19.621

marriage and she was going to go down,

00:39:19.641 --> 00:39:20.441

be down for that.

00:39:20.722 --> 00:39:21.662

That's what happened.

00:39:22.022 --> 00:39:23.003

They had already kind of

00:39:23.083 --> 00:39:24.484

moved away from the church,

00:39:24.904 --> 00:39:26.025

but then she came back.

00:39:27.946 --> 00:39:29.127

She is a full believer,

00:39:29.187 --> 00:39:31.228

but she feels that it's better than,

00:39:31.828 --> 00:39:33.029

you know, the alternatives.

00:39:33.527 --> 00:39:35.228

yeah so it sounds like they

00:39:35.268 --> 00:39:36.468

moved to hawaii sort of

00:39:36.508 --> 00:39:38.368

became inactive you know

00:39:38.408 --> 00:39:39.669

maybe stopped living it for

00:39:39.709 --> 00:39:41.189

a while he has a faith

00:39:41.249 --> 00:39:43.450

crisis and wants an open

00:39:43.490 --> 00:39:45.430

marriage because now he

00:39:45.450 --> 00:39:46.511

doesn't believe in all of

00:39:46.551 --> 00:39:48.431

these restrictions right

00:39:48.791 --> 00:39:51.312

right and she doesn't want

00:39:51.352 --> 00:39:53.293

an open marriage and so

00:39:54.153 --> 00:39:55.793

once he leaves her she kind

00:39:55.833 --> 00:39:57.014

of goes back to the church

00:39:57.114 --> 00:39:58.454

as comfort solace

00:39:58.494 --> 00:40:01.375

protection kind of thing all that okay

00:40:01.755 --> 00:40:03.738

and remarry a guy you know a

00:40:03.778 --> 00:40:06.122

member and you know she

00:40:06.162 --> 00:40:08.405

seems to be doing well now

00:40:09.066 --> 00:40:11.831

but that was a rough go for her um yeah

00:40:13.456 --> 00:40:15.457

it sort of has echoes to me

00:40:15.717 --> 00:40:16.997

of Joseph Smith, you know,

00:40:17.037 --> 00:40:18.317

coming to Emma and saying,

00:40:21.058 --> 00:40:21.738

but just for me.

00:40:23.479 --> 00:40:23.579

Yeah.

00:40:23.599 --> 00:40:23.959

Not you.

00:40:24.359 --> 00:40:24.739

And you,

00:40:24.899 --> 00:40:26.680

you will be destroyed if you don't agree.

00:40:27.260 --> 00:40:27.500

Right.

00:40:27.640 --> 00:40:27.900

Right.

00:40:28.200 --> 00:40:28.701

Oh goodness.

00:40:28.721 --> 00:40:30.101

Well, we could go down that rabbit hole,

00:40:30.121 --> 00:40:31.201

but I think we will not.

00:40:31.621 --> 00:40:33.502

So I just, what,

00:40:34.222 --> 00:40:35.743

what made you so gutsy then?

00:40:35.903 --> 00:40:37.263

Cause you said, you know,

00:40:37.423 --> 00:40:38.343

it's kind of gutsy to,

00:40:38.463 --> 00:40:39.684

to break that cycle.

00:40:39.704 --> 00:40:40.104

Yeah.

00:40:40.424 --> 00:40:41.544

And you saw your brother as

00:40:41.564 --> 00:40:43.385

a cautionary tale leaving the church.

00:40:43.925 --> 00:40:45.225

So you can share as much or

00:40:45.265 --> 00:40:46.845

as little about that as you

00:40:47.005 --> 00:40:49.126

as you would like to.

00:40:49.146 --> 00:40:50.266

Well, I think, you know,

00:40:50.286 --> 00:40:51.526

that was the first thing.

00:40:51.646 --> 00:40:54.347

And then we saw it as a cautionary tale.

00:40:54.747 --> 00:40:56.287

Then I had another brother

00:40:56.327 --> 00:40:58.328

who was he was involved

00:40:58.348 --> 00:41:00.528

with Sunstone and he was a

00:41:00.808 --> 00:41:02.348

editor of Sunstone and was

00:41:02.788 --> 00:41:05.129

involved in the September six event.

00:41:05.953 --> 00:41:07.094

all his friends were

00:41:07.194 --> 00:41:09.157

excommunicated okay so for

00:41:09.217 --> 00:41:10.758

my sorry for my listeners a

00:41:10.798 --> 00:41:12.060

lot of my mission listeners

00:41:12.100 --> 00:41:13.041

are not mormon have never

00:41:13.081 --> 00:41:14.562

been mormon so can you

00:41:14.602 --> 00:41:15.623

explain a little bit about

00:41:15.663 --> 00:41:16.785

what sunstone is and a

00:41:16.825 --> 00:41:17.686

little bit about the

00:41:17.746 --> 00:41:20.188

september six yeah so

00:41:20.208 --> 00:41:21.930

sunstone was at the time a

00:41:22.050 --> 00:41:24.833

magazine that was um

00:41:26.087 --> 00:41:28.528

a controversial Mormon magazine.

00:41:28.608 --> 00:41:30.569

They would talk about, um,

00:41:30.629 --> 00:41:32.090

historical issues.

00:41:32.170 --> 00:41:33.911

This is prior to the internet.

00:41:34.091 --> 00:41:34.411

Okay.

00:41:34.851 --> 00:41:36.232

They would talk about, you know, they,

00:41:36.252 --> 00:41:36.952

they had access.

00:41:36.992 --> 00:41:40.494

They had a lot of, um, uh, apologists,

00:41:40.534 --> 00:41:42.955

no historians that were

00:41:43.775 --> 00:41:47.357

professors were very, very intellectual.

00:41:48.132 --> 00:41:49.053

And these people would get

00:41:49.093 --> 00:41:50.073

together and have

00:41:50.133 --> 00:41:51.774

symposiums and they would

00:41:51.875 --> 00:41:53.976

write and put articles in

00:41:54.096 --> 00:41:55.317

the Sunstone magazine.

00:41:55.457 --> 00:41:57.118

None of this was church approved.

00:41:57.618 --> 00:41:59.340

In fact, the church didn't like it.

00:41:59.860 --> 00:42:02.362

The church was very worried

00:42:02.402 --> 00:42:04.103

about this whole Sunstone

00:42:04.143 --> 00:42:05.223

movement because they were

00:42:05.243 --> 00:42:07.845

bringing up issues that

00:42:07.925 --> 00:42:09.646

they really wanted to keep quiet.

00:42:10.227 --> 00:42:13.089

So he was the editor.

00:42:13.129 --> 00:42:15.010

He was finding out all kinds of things.

00:42:15.070 --> 00:42:17.912

And I would listen to him talk to my dad.

00:42:18.558 --> 00:42:20.960

And my older brother, before he left,

00:42:21.501 --> 00:42:22.201

they would have these

00:42:22.542 --> 00:42:24.924

all-nighters at the house,

00:42:24.944 --> 00:42:25.865

at my parents' house.

00:42:25.885 --> 00:42:28.567

And Paul Toscano was there all the time.

00:42:28.747 --> 00:42:31.810

And they were talking about, you know,

00:42:32.230 --> 00:42:32.751

polygamy.

00:42:32.971 --> 00:42:35.353

They were talking about Joseph's polygamy.

00:42:35.413 --> 00:42:37.015

They were talking about scandals.

00:42:38.013 --> 00:42:39.094

Um,

00:42:39.194 --> 00:42:41.976

all kinds of the white salamander scandal,

00:42:42.076 --> 00:42:43.417

all of that was,

00:42:44.317 --> 00:42:46.319

they were topics that I was listening to,

00:42:46.599 --> 00:42:48.760

um, kind of sneakily.

00:42:49.241 --> 00:42:50.662

Like I was just there

00:42:50.942 --> 00:42:52.723

listening and absorbing all

00:42:52.763 --> 00:42:55.945

of it and thinking, what is going on?

00:42:56.085 --> 00:42:57.266

What are we talking about?

00:42:57.386 --> 00:42:58.387

Getting really nervous

00:42:58.647 --> 00:43:01.789

inside thinking the things

00:43:01.829 --> 00:43:03.430

they were talking about were,

00:43:03.890 --> 00:43:05.391

were controversial and kind

00:43:05.411 --> 00:43:07.353

of scary for me, for my testimony.

00:43:08.445 --> 00:43:10.185

So when my brother, so,

00:43:10.225 --> 00:43:13.626

so that group of intellectuals, um,

00:43:13.646 --> 00:43:14.687

that were involved in

00:43:14.787 --> 00:43:16.647

Sunstone and the symposiums

00:43:16.687 --> 00:43:18.988

that they would hold came

00:43:19.168 --> 00:43:22.349

under fire by the brethren, the leaders,

00:43:22.389 --> 00:43:23.929

the top leaders, the top.

00:43:25.529 --> 00:43:28.210

And they systematically

00:43:28.730 --> 00:43:29.951

within a very short period

00:43:29.971 --> 00:43:31.651

of time in the month of September,

00:43:32.310 --> 00:43:33.590

of nineteen ninety three

00:43:34.310 --> 00:43:36.651

excommunicated six of them

00:43:37.411 --> 00:43:38.531

like all at once.

00:43:39.232 --> 00:43:40.412

But they didn't do it as

00:43:41.312 --> 00:43:42.292

coming down from the top.

00:43:42.312 --> 00:43:43.533

They just had the stake,

00:43:43.913 --> 00:43:46.693

the individual stake

00:43:46.733 --> 00:43:48.554

leadership do this so that

00:43:48.594 --> 00:43:49.354

it couldn't really be

00:43:49.414 --> 00:43:51.614

traced back to leadership.

00:43:51.654 --> 00:43:54.475

But it was very much a kind

00:43:54.515 --> 00:43:56.876

of a smackdown on intellectual

00:44:00.604 --> 00:44:01.865

Yeah.

00:44:01.905 --> 00:44:03.326

So and this is this is so

00:44:03.366 --> 00:44:04.887

typical of the way that the

00:44:04.927 --> 00:44:07.188

church operates for my listeners,

00:44:07.288 --> 00:44:11.771

viewers who don't know that the brethren,

00:44:12.051 --> 00:44:13.312

the fifteen who control the

00:44:13.352 --> 00:44:15.473

church will hear of a movement like this.

00:44:15.854 --> 00:44:16.974

They will not like it.

00:44:17.535 --> 00:44:18.935

And so they will direct the

00:44:18.975 --> 00:44:23.438

local leaders to conduct an investigation,

00:44:23.999 --> 00:44:25.299

a disciplinary council and

00:44:25.339 --> 00:44:26.180

excommunication.

00:44:26.240 --> 00:44:27.561

So they're getting pressure

00:44:27.941 --> 00:44:28.842

from Salt Lake.

00:44:31.014 --> 00:44:32.234

to excommunicate someone.

00:44:32.374 --> 00:44:34.395

And I saw this just recently

00:44:34.515 --> 00:44:35.915

with Nemo the Mormon.

00:44:36.896 --> 00:44:38.557

Nemo had a good relationship

00:44:38.577 --> 00:44:39.697

with his state president

00:44:40.037 --> 00:44:40.937

and with his Bishop.

00:44:41.478 --> 00:44:43.178

They both knew what he was

00:44:43.218 --> 00:44:45.199

talking about online and

00:44:45.219 --> 00:44:46.340

that he was critical of the

00:44:46.380 --> 00:44:47.600

church and they were okay

00:44:47.620 --> 00:44:48.841

with it for the most part.

00:44:49.341 --> 00:44:51.822

And then the idea is there

00:44:51.842 --> 00:44:53.002

was some pressure from Salt

00:44:53.022 --> 00:44:54.243

Lake to silence him.

00:44:55.103 --> 00:44:56.464

And so they gave him this ultimatum,

00:44:56.484 --> 00:44:57.405

but they never really told

00:44:57.425 --> 00:44:58.466

him what he was doing wrong.

00:44:58.546 --> 00:45:00.187

So the local leadership, I don't think,

00:45:00.227 --> 00:45:01.969

really wanted to excommunicate him,

00:45:02.529 --> 00:45:03.110

but they were getting

00:45:03.150 --> 00:45:04.711

pressure from from above.

00:45:04.751 --> 00:45:05.852

So it sounds like that's

00:45:05.892 --> 00:45:06.713

what happened with the

00:45:06.753 --> 00:45:07.814

September six as well.

00:45:08.074 --> 00:45:08.654

Very much.

00:45:08.915 --> 00:45:09.555

Yeah.

00:45:09.635 --> 00:45:12.278

And these were really highly

00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:14.800

intelligent people.

00:45:14.860 --> 00:45:16.081

They were they were

00:45:16.581 --> 00:45:18.042

everything they were saying

00:45:18.523 --> 00:45:19.624

was documented.

00:45:19.784 --> 00:45:21.125

It wasn't they were they

00:45:21.165 --> 00:45:23.487

weren't making up anything.

00:45:24.059 --> 00:45:24.260

Right.

00:45:24.501 --> 00:45:25.484

Which is stuff that church

00:45:25.524 --> 00:45:27.972

did not want known.

00:45:28.032 --> 00:45:28.213

Right.

00:45:28.518 --> 00:45:30.218

They had been hiding it for a reason.

00:45:30.599 --> 00:45:31.579

They did not want the

00:45:31.719 --> 00:45:34.020

archives to be unfolded in

00:45:34.080 --> 00:45:35.600

front of the eyes of all of

00:45:35.700 --> 00:45:36.840

the membership.

00:45:37.460 --> 00:45:38.221

Right.

00:45:38.241 --> 00:45:39.501

So they were causing a

00:45:39.521 --> 00:45:41.021

little bit of a rift there.

00:45:41.161 --> 00:45:42.202

So that they,

00:45:42.382 --> 00:45:45.443

they really did just shut down.

00:45:45.883 --> 00:45:46.163

In fact,

00:45:46.183 --> 00:45:48.183

they were talks in conference

00:45:48.323 --> 00:45:49.724

afterwards saying that

00:45:49.844 --> 00:45:50.764

intellectuals

00:45:51.344 --> 00:45:57.006

intellectualism was like a bad thing.

00:45:57.066 --> 00:45:57.326

Right.

00:45:59.198 --> 00:46:00.779

I remember my parents when

00:46:00.819 --> 00:46:02.821

we moved from South Dakota

00:46:02.881 --> 00:46:05.042

to Connecticut and my

00:46:05.422 --> 00:46:06.943

parents were trying to find

00:46:06.963 --> 00:46:07.944

a place to live.

00:46:08.484 --> 00:46:10.685

I remember them specifically

00:46:10.745 --> 00:46:11.626

saying that they had

00:46:11.666 --> 00:46:13.147

visited a couple of wards

00:46:14.127 --> 00:46:15.788

and they consciously made a

00:46:15.828 --> 00:46:17.409

decision not to buy a house

00:46:17.510 --> 00:46:19.110

in this ward's boundaries

00:46:19.150 --> 00:46:20.852

because it was an intellectual ward.

00:46:20.912 --> 00:46:22.673

And I remember my parents saying, no,

00:46:22.713 --> 00:46:23.233

thank you.

00:46:24.073 --> 00:46:27.676

And that was nineteen eighty six.

00:46:27.696 --> 00:46:27.776

Yeah.

00:46:27.796 --> 00:46:27.916

Yeah.

00:46:28.641 --> 00:46:31.422

So that is actually all

00:46:31.482 --> 00:46:33.443

those years building up to

00:46:33.623 --> 00:46:36.244

the September six when they

00:46:36.264 --> 00:46:37.425

were all excommunicated,

00:46:38.205 --> 00:46:40.726

those were the years where, you know,

00:46:40.886 --> 00:46:43.267

Sunstone was rolling on and

00:46:43.387 --> 00:46:44.547

things were there,

00:46:44.587 --> 00:46:46.608

there was dialogue magazine that,

00:46:46.828 --> 00:46:47.709

that brought up some

00:46:47.769 --> 00:46:48.749

controversial things.

00:46:49.549 --> 00:46:52.310

And between those two, um,

00:46:52.691 --> 00:46:55.712

it was causing a lot of people to doubt,

00:46:56.889 --> 00:46:57.589

Um, you know,

00:46:57.629 --> 00:47:01.591

and just to kind of push back on, on the,

00:47:01.831 --> 00:47:04.312

uh, the correlated material and say,

00:47:04.792 --> 00:47:05.332

you know, you're,

00:47:05.692 --> 00:47:07.953

this isn't really right.

00:47:08.033 --> 00:47:10.354

What you're teaching isn't really, uh,

00:47:10.894 --> 00:47:12.074

substantiated by,

00:47:12.274 --> 00:47:14.455

by what we're seeing in the archives.

00:47:15.055 --> 00:47:15.636

So yeah,

00:47:15.736 --> 00:47:17.216

it was causing a little bit of a problem.

00:47:17.656 --> 00:47:18.977

So it's just like anything

00:47:19.057 --> 00:47:20.977

else you've heard of where, you know,

00:47:21.037 --> 00:47:22.518

somebody starts to tell the truth.

00:47:23.672 --> 00:47:25.092

And the people that are in

00:47:25.132 --> 00:47:26.673

charge want to shut that up.

00:47:26.713 --> 00:47:27.613

And that's what happened.

00:47:27.973 --> 00:47:29.493

Because it threatens their position,

00:47:29.773 --> 00:47:30.033

right?

00:47:30.153 --> 00:47:31.753

And it sounds like what

00:47:31.813 --> 00:47:33.434

started to happen is that

00:47:34.154 --> 00:47:35.794

some of the scholars and

00:47:35.834 --> 00:47:37.594

historians were uncovering

00:47:37.634 --> 00:47:38.855

information that was

00:47:38.895 --> 00:47:39.995

harmful to the church's

00:47:40.035 --> 00:47:41.795

truth claims and the church's narrative.

00:47:41.875 --> 00:47:42.935

And they all started to kind

00:47:42.955 --> 00:47:44.836

of get together and share information.

00:47:45.276 --> 00:47:47.556

And that's kind of what Sunstone was.

00:47:47.596 --> 00:47:47.996

It was like,

00:47:48.156 --> 00:47:49.617

I know this thing about polygamy.

00:47:49.677 --> 00:47:49.857

Well,

00:47:49.977 --> 00:47:51.097

I know this thing about Joseph

00:47:51.117 --> 00:47:51.797

Smith's past.

00:47:52.717 --> 00:47:54.298

And so they were getting together,

00:47:54.338 --> 00:47:55.218

sharing information.

00:47:55.398 --> 00:47:56.518

I'm sure that felt really

00:47:56.538 --> 00:47:57.519

threatening to the church

00:47:57.539 --> 00:47:58.219

because it's like, well,

00:47:58.259 --> 00:47:58.879

we don't want this.

00:47:58.999 --> 00:47:59.840

We don't want the general

00:47:59.880 --> 00:48:01.060

membership to know all of

00:48:01.080 --> 00:48:03.961

these things because it's threatening to,

00:48:04.241 --> 00:48:06.142

you know, to their official narrative.

00:48:06.302 --> 00:48:07.602

And so they try to silence

00:48:07.682 --> 00:48:08.623

all of these people.

00:48:09.503 --> 00:48:10.283

And then what ends up

00:48:10.343 --> 00:48:12.004

happening is that the truth

00:48:12.044 --> 00:48:12.944

gets out anyway.

00:48:13.344 --> 00:48:14.925

And now it's published on

00:48:14.965 --> 00:48:16.045

the church website as the

00:48:16.065 --> 00:48:17.186

gospel topic essay.

00:48:17.466 --> 00:48:17.706

Right.

00:48:18.246 --> 00:48:19.688

So can you maybe say and I

00:48:19.708 --> 00:48:20.929

don't the reason I don't

00:48:20.969 --> 00:48:22.130

know is because in nineteen

00:48:22.170 --> 00:48:25.153

ninety three I was in the

00:48:25.193 --> 00:48:27.595

middle of a ridiculously

00:48:27.615 --> 00:48:29.236

crazy time leaving home for

00:48:29.256 --> 00:48:30.497

the first time and I had

00:48:30.537 --> 00:48:31.298

stepped away from the

00:48:31.338 --> 00:48:32.759

church for a couple of

00:48:32.800 --> 00:48:33.820

years during that time.

00:48:34.401 --> 00:48:35.762

So I didn't really know any

00:48:35.802 --> 00:48:36.803

of this stuff was going on.

00:48:36.843 --> 00:48:37.844

Not that I would have anyway,

00:48:37.864 --> 00:48:39.646

because I was in Texas and

00:48:42.928 --> 00:48:44.048

I didn't even know what

00:48:44.369 --> 00:48:46.850

Sunstone was until maybe

00:48:46.890 --> 00:48:49.511

ten years ago or so.

00:48:49.591 --> 00:48:50.872

When you're growing up

00:48:50.972 --> 00:48:52.072

outside of Utah and when

00:48:52.092 --> 00:48:53.833

you're in the church outside of Utah,

00:48:54.353 --> 00:48:55.314

we don't always get the

00:48:55.374 --> 00:48:57.015

same experience and we

00:48:57.035 --> 00:48:58.375

don't get the same information.

00:48:59.776 --> 00:49:00.377

Everything that was

00:49:00.417 --> 00:49:01.418

controversial about what

00:49:01.438 --> 00:49:02.679

was coming out at that time,

00:49:03.380 --> 00:49:04.862

if I had wanted to know about that,

00:49:04.942 --> 00:49:06.083

I would have had to go to

00:49:06.143 --> 00:49:07.204

Salt Lake and talk to some

00:49:07.244 --> 00:49:07.885

of these people.

00:49:08.105 --> 00:49:11.249

It wouldn't have even entered my mind

00:49:12.344 --> 00:49:13.365

that there was a group of

00:49:13.405 --> 00:49:14.546

people talking about

00:49:14.766 --> 00:49:15.907

historical things in the

00:49:15.987 --> 00:49:16.867

archives or whatever,

00:49:16.947 --> 00:49:18.509

because we didn't get any

00:49:18.549 --> 00:49:20.150

of that news or information.

00:49:20.170 --> 00:49:21.311

There's no Deseret News,

00:49:21.331 --> 00:49:22.812

there's no Salt Lake

00:49:22.832 --> 00:49:25.974

Tribune in Texas or anywhere else.

00:49:27.475 --> 00:49:28.736

We wouldn't have known that

00:49:28.856 --> 00:49:30.177

stuff was going on unless

00:49:30.217 --> 00:49:31.238

it was part of the rumor

00:49:31.258 --> 00:49:31.938

mill kind of thing.

00:49:32.819 --> 00:49:35.000

yeah and and i mean it was

00:49:35.060 --> 00:49:36.841

gaining momentum the the

00:49:36.881 --> 00:49:39.122

subscribership for sunstone

00:49:39.663 --> 00:49:40.523

you know they it was a

00:49:40.643 --> 00:49:42.684

struggling magazine they

00:49:42.724 --> 00:49:45.466

were not doing super well

00:49:45.666 --> 00:49:47.067

as far as financially go

00:49:47.327 --> 00:49:48.928

financial finances goes

00:49:49.348 --> 00:49:52.609

yeah but um they you know

00:49:52.629 --> 00:49:54.090

there was this sort of

00:49:54.851 --> 00:49:57.992

undercurrent of interest in

00:49:58.232 --> 00:50:00.894

the population especially in salt lake

00:50:01.474 --> 00:50:03.014

and maybe surrounding you

00:50:03.034 --> 00:50:06.095

know areas where the word

00:50:06.115 --> 00:50:07.615

was getting out and people

00:50:07.655 --> 00:50:09.496

were curious they wanted to

00:50:09.516 --> 00:50:11.456

know what because one of

00:50:11.496 --> 00:50:12.716

the things that was getting

00:50:12.876 --> 00:50:14.737

out was the book of abraham

00:50:15.097 --> 00:50:17.217

issues yeah so that's what

00:50:17.237 --> 00:50:18.198

i was going to ask you is

00:50:18.218 --> 00:50:19.278

kind of what were the main

00:50:19.338 --> 00:50:20.538

things that got the

00:50:20.598 --> 00:50:21.338

september six

00:50:21.478 --> 00:50:22.539

excommunicated what were the

00:50:22.599 --> 00:50:23.359

main things they were

00:50:23.379 --> 00:50:25.559

saying well the women most

00:50:25.599 --> 00:50:26.419

of the women got

00:50:26.479 --> 00:50:28.000

excommunicated before

00:50:28.040 --> 00:50:29.100

talking about heavenly mother

00:50:30.464 --> 00:50:32.926

Um, the divine feminine fat.

00:50:32.986 --> 00:50:33.407

No, no,

00:50:33.707 --> 00:50:35.629

we don't talk about heavenly mother.

00:50:36.249 --> 00:50:37.991

We only talk about the father.

00:50:38.171 --> 00:50:38.491

Right.

00:50:38.551 --> 00:50:41.354

So they got in trouble for that.

00:50:41.634 --> 00:50:43.756

Um, Maxine, uh, Maxine Hanks.

00:50:45.998 --> 00:50:48.780

Um, sorry, I'm blanking out right now.

00:50:48.820 --> 00:50:50.502

Margaret, Margaret Toscano.

00:50:51.443 --> 00:50:51.563

Um,

00:50:54.323 --> 00:50:55.944

And Kate Kelly wasn't part of this yet,

00:50:56.004 --> 00:50:56.264

right?

00:50:56.544 --> 00:50:56.824

No.

00:50:56.884 --> 00:50:57.565

That came later.

00:50:57.725 --> 00:50:57.965

Okay.

00:50:58.565 --> 00:50:59.065

Much later.

00:50:59.126 --> 00:50:59.346

Yeah.

00:50:59.406 --> 00:51:00.426

Yeah.

00:51:00.666 --> 00:51:02.267

There was, there was this,

00:51:02.307 --> 00:51:03.568

these were professors.

00:51:03.628 --> 00:51:06.729

These were not well-known

00:51:07.570 --> 00:51:10.632

outside of the BYU, you know.

00:51:10.712 --> 00:51:11.772

Outside of academia.

00:51:12.072 --> 00:51:12.412

Yeah.

00:51:12.593 --> 00:51:14.474

They just weren't, but,

00:51:14.614 --> 00:51:16.274

but they were brilliant and,

00:51:16.515 --> 00:51:18.996

and outspoken and, and, you know,

00:51:19.016 --> 00:51:19.916

they were thinkers.

00:51:20.156 --> 00:51:20.557

So yeah.

00:51:21.511 --> 00:51:22.491

I'm going to look up their

00:51:22.511 --> 00:51:24.392

names because I think it's

00:51:24.592 --> 00:51:25.472

important to say their names,

00:51:25.492 --> 00:51:26.652

and I don't know them either.

00:51:28.773 --> 00:51:29.973

I've talked about them enough.

00:51:29.993 --> 00:51:33.334

I ought to know all of them.

00:51:33.894 --> 00:51:34.914

So basically,

00:51:35.794 --> 00:51:36.895

it was all the things that

00:51:36.915 --> 00:51:40.075

are now in the Gospel Topics Essays.

00:51:40.895 --> 00:51:41.776

Those were the things they

00:51:41.816 --> 00:51:42.596

were talking about.

00:51:43.933 --> 00:51:45.094

And the church is now,

00:51:45.214 --> 00:51:46.917

it's part of their doctrine,

00:51:46.977 --> 00:51:47.979

although they still want to

00:51:48.019 --> 00:51:49.781

keep it on the down low.

00:51:50.142 --> 00:51:51.484

They really don't want it taught.

00:51:52.054 --> 00:51:52.214

Yeah,

00:51:52.234 --> 00:51:53.794

they still want to control the way

00:51:53.814 --> 00:51:55.395

that information gets out.

00:51:55.835 --> 00:51:57.975

And I would say that the

00:51:57.995 --> 00:51:59.675

gospel topics essays were

00:51:59.715 --> 00:52:02.056

that effort that they, you know,

00:52:02.096 --> 00:52:03.236

they sort of put a faithful

00:52:03.276 --> 00:52:04.236

spin on things.

00:52:04.796 --> 00:52:05.816

They buried a lot of things

00:52:05.836 --> 00:52:07.797

in the footnotes and they

00:52:08.077 --> 00:52:09.537

published them very quietly

00:52:09.577 --> 00:52:10.937

without really announcing it.

00:52:11.217 --> 00:52:13.678

And then they did a bunch of surveys.

00:52:13.738 --> 00:52:14.758

I just found this out

00:52:14.838 --> 00:52:15.718

actually interviewing

00:52:15.758 --> 00:52:17.158

Nathan Hinckley of the

00:52:17.198 --> 00:52:18.599

bishop's interview the other night.

00:52:19.039 --> 00:52:20.199

He was a sitting bishop.

00:52:21.380 --> 00:52:23.061

the church sent him a survey and said,

00:52:23.081 --> 00:52:24.462

you've been chosen among

00:52:24.502 --> 00:52:26.244

bishops to complete this survey.

00:52:26.965 --> 00:52:27.946

And they started asking a

00:52:27.986 --> 00:52:28.847

bunch of questions about

00:52:28.867 --> 00:52:30.088

the gospel topics essays,

00:52:30.108 --> 00:52:31.689

which he didn't know existed yet.

00:52:32.350 --> 00:52:33.451

Oh, my goodness.

00:52:33.711 --> 00:52:36.734

As a sitting bishop.

00:52:36.834 --> 00:52:38.055

What I'm talking about,

00:52:38.095 --> 00:52:39.637

like they really wanted to

00:52:39.657 --> 00:52:41.098

keep it undercover.

00:52:41.118 --> 00:52:41.959

Yeah.

00:52:42.435 --> 00:52:44.475

possible it's like oh we're

00:52:44.976 --> 00:52:46.776

if anyone ever asks we can

00:52:46.816 --> 00:52:48.736

say oh no we have this it's

00:52:48.796 --> 00:52:50.097

all written right here on

00:52:50.157 --> 00:52:52.537

our website but it's buried

00:52:53.137 --> 00:52:55.158

like five clips clicks deep

00:52:55.318 --> 00:52:56.298

and then you have to know

00:52:56.318 --> 00:52:57.338

what you're looking for to

00:52:57.378 --> 00:52:59.439

find it yep once again if

00:52:59.459 --> 00:53:00.459

you're not taught how do

00:53:00.479 --> 00:53:01.679

you know what to look for

00:53:01.699 --> 00:53:04.180

yeah exactly so I'm gonna

00:53:04.200 --> 00:53:05.560

share I'm gonna share this

00:53:05.600 --> 00:53:07.861

screen just because I want people to see

00:53:09.438 --> 00:53:10.939

Um, you know, these are real people.

00:53:11.659 --> 00:53:12.979

can't go to fair LDS,

00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:18.221

can't go to wheatandtears.org.

00:53:18.341 --> 00:53:20.026

But I just wanted like a concise.

00:53:20.026 --> 00:53:20.166

Okay.

00:53:20.606 --> 00:53:23.208

Well, anyway, I'll just say, so, um,

00:53:23.929 --> 00:53:27.072

Lynn Whitesides, Mormon feminist, um,

00:53:27.372 --> 00:53:29.074

noted for speaking on mother in heaven,

00:53:29.814 --> 00:53:34.118

Avraham Gileady, a Hebrew scholar, um,

00:53:34.999 --> 00:53:35.679

published a new

00:53:35.780 --> 00:53:36.961

interpretive translation of

00:53:36.981 --> 00:53:39.543

the book of Isaiah, um,

00:53:41.393 --> 00:53:42.554

he talked about the Davidic

00:53:42.594 --> 00:53:44.076

king or the Davidic servant,

00:53:44.276 --> 00:53:46.239

which has ties to my crazy

00:53:46.519 --> 00:53:47.540

Lori Vallow case.

00:53:47.560 --> 00:53:50.724

So his teachings were really problematic.

00:53:52.286 --> 00:53:53.807

So it's kind of interesting

00:53:53.827 --> 00:53:56.110

because I would say that

00:53:56.130 --> 00:53:57.572

there are some people who

00:53:57.632 --> 00:53:58.673

are excommunicated

00:53:59.413 --> 00:54:01.254

for telling the truth about

00:54:01.334 --> 00:54:02.934

stuff that the church

00:54:02.954 --> 00:54:03.695

didn't want to get out.

00:54:03.735 --> 00:54:04.575

But then there were also

00:54:04.615 --> 00:54:05.135

people who are

00:54:05.195 --> 00:54:06.316

excommunicated who are kind

00:54:06.356 --> 00:54:07.296

of coming up with their own

00:54:07.356 --> 00:54:08.236

stuff and riffing.

00:54:09.196 --> 00:54:12.698

And that actually is harmful

00:54:12.738 --> 00:54:13.478

and problematic.

00:54:13.558 --> 00:54:15.399

So sometimes I think of

00:54:15.459 --> 00:54:17.119

excommunicated people as heroes,

00:54:17.219 --> 00:54:19.120

but there are some that are not heroes.

00:54:19.140 --> 00:54:21.100

So I just want to be clear about that,

00:54:21.701 --> 00:54:23.261

right?

00:54:23.381 --> 00:54:24.202

Yeah.

00:54:24.262 --> 00:54:25.362

So, and then...

00:54:27.222 --> 00:54:29.404

Uh, Paul Toscano was kind of the leader,

00:54:29.464 --> 00:54:29.764

right?

00:54:29.905 --> 00:54:31.966

Of, of Sunstone a little bit.

00:54:32.347 --> 00:54:34.008

Um, I wouldn't say he was a leader,

00:54:34.028 --> 00:54:35.709

but he was definitely influential.

00:54:35.810 --> 00:54:37.591

He was right there in the trenches.

00:54:37.611 --> 00:54:37.691

Yeah.

00:54:37.731 --> 00:54:37.851

Yeah.

00:54:39.413 --> 00:54:42.695

Seeing, uh, she's back a full member now.

00:54:43.356 --> 00:54:44.036

Levina.

00:54:44.217 --> 00:54:45.958

That's the one I was trying to remember.

00:54:45.978 --> 00:54:46.258

Okay.

00:54:47.119 --> 00:54:48.160

So I just want to talk about

00:54:48.200 --> 00:54:51.403

Paul Toscano for a second because, um,

00:54:52.431 --> 00:54:53.492

According to Tostano,

00:54:53.532 --> 00:54:55.054

the actual reason for his

00:54:55.114 --> 00:54:56.076

excommunication was

00:54:56.216 --> 00:54:57.257

insubordination and

00:54:57.297 --> 00:54:58.699

refusing to curb his sharp

00:54:58.719 --> 00:54:59.820

criticism of the church

00:54:59.860 --> 00:55:01.562

leader's preference for legalism,

00:55:02.243 --> 00:55:03.825

ecclesiastical tyranny,

00:55:04.526 --> 00:55:05.948

whitewashed Mormon history,

00:55:06.428 --> 00:55:09.332

and hierarchical authoritarianism,

00:55:10.233 --> 00:55:11.834

which privilege the image of

00:55:11.874 --> 00:55:13.075

the corporate church above

00:55:13.135 --> 00:55:14.416

its commitment to its

00:55:14.477 --> 00:55:16.478

members to the teaching and

00:55:16.498 --> 00:55:17.579

the revelations of founder

00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:18.800

joseph smith and the gospel

00:55:18.840 --> 00:55:19.981

of jesus christ so i would

00:55:20.021 --> 00:55:22.163

say paul toscano and i

00:55:22.543 --> 00:55:25.405

agree heartily on those on

00:55:25.445 --> 00:55:27.327

those ideas because i talk

00:55:27.367 --> 00:55:29.329

a lot about institutional

00:55:29.389 --> 00:55:31.210

narcissism and the fact

00:55:31.250 --> 00:55:32.911

that the lds operates in

00:55:32.931 --> 00:55:35.393

society as a narcissistic entity

00:55:36.254 --> 00:55:38.074

And I agree with you on that.

00:55:38.094 --> 00:55:41.875

Paul was saying that in nineteen.

00:55:43.015 --> 00:55:43.316

Right.

00:55:44.216 --> 00:55:45.956

And now we just we we have I

00:55:46.156 --> 00:55:47.156

just have a different lens

00:55:47.196 --> 00:55:48.097

of seeing it because I grew

00:55:48.157 --> 00:55:49.137

up around narcissists.

00:55:49.377 --> 00:55:50.437

I suffered narcissistic

00:55:50.477 --> 00:55:52.197

abuse and I've studied a

00:55:52.237 --> 00:55:53.318

lot about narcissism.

00:55:53.498 --> 00:55:54.598

And so that's the lens that

00:55:54.718 --> 00:55:55.478

I see it through.

00:55:55.878 --> 00:55:56.758

So it sounds like he was

00:55:56.798 --> 00:55:57.779

calling it basically the

00:55:57.839 --> 00:55:59.519

same thing back then.

00:55:59.599 --> 00:56:00.959

And he still feels that way.

00:56:01.459 --> 00:56:03.940

Paul is a believer in Joseph Smith.

00:56:04.943 --> 00:56:05.383

Okay.

00:56:05.403 --> 00:56:06.924

Believer in the book of Mormon.

00:56:07.744 --> 00:56:10.045

He's a believer in the temple ceremony.

00:56:11.006 --> 00:56:11.806

He does.

00:56:11.926 --> 00:56:12.866

He thinks that the

00:56:12.926 --> 00:56:15.267

leadership is corrupt and

00:56:15.287 --> 00:56:17.548

that the way that they run things,

00:56:17.588 --> 00:56:20.190

the legalism, all of that, the narcissism,

00:56:20.730 --> 00:56:21.810

all of that, he he's,

00:56:22.310 --> 00:56:23.971

he was very critical of

00:56:24.011 --> 00:56:25.472

them and very loud and

00:56:25.552 --> 00:56:28.033

vocal about it back then.

00:56:28.073 --> 00:56:30.174

I get why they excommunicated him.

00:56:30.254 --> 00:56:31.635

Cause he did not mince words.

00:56:31.695 --> 00:56:32.615

He was, he was,

00:56:33.247 --> 00:56:35.529

he would call them out by

00:56:35.669 --> 00:56:38.190

name and tell them, you know,

00:56:38.210 --> 00:56:40.352

that what they were doing was bullshit,

00:56:40.632 --> 00:56:42.553

you know, so they weren't having that.

00:56:42.593 --> 00:56:42.693

Yeah.

00:56:43.574 --> 00:56:46.376

Still holds that Joseph

00:56:46.396 --> 00:56:47.356

Smith was a prophet.

00:56:48.117 --> 00:56:49.898

So we don't, I'm a good friend.

00:56:49.998 --> 00:56:50.759

We talk a lot.

00:56:50.779 --> 00:56:51.279

Um,

00:56:52.696 --> 00:56:53.877

i don't agree with all the

00:56:53.917 --> 00:56:55.038

things that the way that

00:56:55.098 --> 00:56:56.239

he's come down the way i've

00:56:56.280 --> 00:56:57.160

come down on different

00:56:57.220 --> 00:56:59.563

sides but we do align like

00:56:59.603 --> 00:57:02.245

you said on those top on

00:57:02.265 --> 00:57:03.887

those specific elements

00:57:04.307 --> 00:57:05.388

where i agree with them a

00:57:05.428 --> 00:57:06.990

hundred percent and he said

00:57:07.230 --> 00:57:09.072

he was the one that said to

00:57:09.112 --> 00:57:11.734

me Lila i was there in your

00:57:11.774 --> 00:57:14.297

home he said you and all of

00:57:14.317 --> 00:57:17.680

your siblings experience spiritual abuse

00:57:19.069 --> 00:57:20.650

And I, it really took me back.

00:57:20.810 --> 00:57:21.891

And I said, what do you,

00:57:21.911 --> 00:57:23.792

I didn't even know the term at the time.

00:57:24.112 --> 00:57:24.693

Yeah.

00:57:24.753 --> 00:57:25.493

Read this book,

00:57:25.533 --> 00:57:27.194

which I read this book on

00:57:27.234 --> 00:57:28.855

spiritual abuse that someone had written.

00:57:30.116 --> 00:57:31.397

And I didn't agree with the

00:57:31.497 --> 00:57:32.938

author a hundred percent on

00:57:32.958 --> 00:57:34.399

the way that they came down, but,

00:57:34.880 --> 00:57:36.401

but the spiritual abuse piece.

00:57:36.501 --> 00:57:36.941

Yes.

00:57:37.541 --> 00:57:39.903

I do see that and that it has happened.

00:57:40.623 --> 00:57:42.185

And I do think that most

00:57:42.285 --> 00:57:45.667

members who have now left the,

00:57:46.780 --> 00:57:49.862

can point to some kind of spiritual abuse.

00:57:50.643 --> 00:57:53.564

The reason why they had to go.

00:57:55.746 --> 00:57:57.167

So let's just put a pin in

00:57:57.187 --> 00:57:57.807

that for a second,

00:57:57.827 --> 00:57:58.648

because that's exactly

00:57:58.688 --> 00:57:59.848

where I want to come back to.

00:57:59.868 --> 00:58:01.249

But since we started down

00:58:01.750 --> 00:58:02.990

the path of September six,

00:58:03.111 --> 00:58:04.031

I just want to finish

00:58:04.051 --> 00:58:05.312

saying the rest of the people,

00:58:05.372 --> 00:58:06.713

because I think it's important.

00:58:07.653 --> 00:58:09.475

I wasn't super well educated about this,

00:58:09.515 --> 00:58:11.256

and so I just want people to know.

00:58:11.756 --> 00:58:13.417

So then Maxine Hanks,

00:58:13.657 --> 00:58:15.739

another Mormon feminist theologian,

00:58:16.539 --> 00:58:19.381

um she she uh compiled the

00:58:19.501 --> 00:58:20.342

edit and edited the

00:58:20.402 --> 00:58:21.462

anthology women and

00:58:21.502 --> 00:58:23.063

authority re-emerging

00:58:23.224 --> 00:58:25.845

mormon feminism um and then

00:58:26.686 --> 00:58:29.348

lavina is it lavina lavina

00:58:29.848 --> 00:58:32.990

lavina anderson um she

00:58:33.090 --> 00:58:34.451

edited the book sisters in

00:58:34.531 --> 00:58:35.872

spirit mormon women in

00:58:35.952 --> 00:58:37.013

historical and cultural

00:58:37.053 --> 00:58:38.674

perspective and lucy's book

00:58:39.134 --> 00:58:40.355

an edition of the lucy mac

00:58:40.395 --> 00:58:41.896

smith narrative who was the

00:58:42.096 --> 00:58:44.918

mother of joseph smith um

00:58:45.827 --> 00:58:49.050

And then D. Michael Quinn, a historian,

00:58:50.031 --> 00:58:51.993

he documented LDS

00:58:52.054 --> 00:58:53.575

church-sanctioned polygamy.

00:58:53.715 --> 00:58:54.016

Oops.

00:58:55.343 --> 00:58:55.983

Let's go back.

00:58:56.463 --> 00:58:57.704

LDS Church sanctioned

00:58:57.744 --> 00:58:59.244

polygamy from eighteen

00:58:59.284 --> 00:59:00.644

ninety until nineteen oh

00:59:00.684 --> 00:59:02.505

four after the night.

00:59:02.845 --> 00:59:03.085

Sorry.

00:59:03.165 --> 00:59:04.625

Eighteen ninety manifesto

00:59:05.145 --> 00:59:07.226

that officially abandoned the practice.

00:59:07.246 --> 00:59:09.587

So he was calling the church

00:59:09.827 --> 00:59:12.147

out for the lie that they

00:59:12.187 --> 00:59:13.587

had stopped the practice of

00:59:13.648 --> 00:59:15.868

polygamy after the manifesto.

00:59:15.948 --> 00:59:16.728

So, of course, yeah,

00:59:16.768 --> 00:59:18.329

that would be super threatening.

00:59:18.489 --> 00:59:19.329

Yeah.

00:59:19.409 --> 00:59:19.489

Yeah.

00:59:21.208 --> 00:59:23.190

So let's go back to Paul Toscano.

00:59:23.230 --> 00:59:24.571

So he pointed out to you

00:59:24.591 --> 00:59:26.672

that you had experienced spiritual abuse.

00:59:26.913 --> 00:59:28.073

He gave you a book to read.

00:59:28.113 --> 00:59:29.655

Do you remember the name of the book?

00:59:30.240 --> 00:59:31.181

He just put out a book

00:59:31.221 --> 00:59:32.701

called Driving Jesus.

00:59:33.442 --> 00:59:35.483

And I told him I would read it,

00:59:36.223 --> 00:59:36.764

which I did.

00:59:37.484 --> 00:59:38.485

And it's beautiful.

00:59:38.685 --> 00:59:39.846

It's a beautiful story.

00:59:40.066 --> 00:59:44.949

But Paul is a,

00:59:45.249 --> 00:59:48.631

he is a sentimental guy who just loves,

00:59:48.911 --> 00:59:52.313

he loves Joseph Smith and he loves Jesus.

00:59:52.533 --> 00:59:52.633

And

00:59:53.509 --> 00:59:54.269

the good things,

00:59:54.329 --> 00:59:55.830

the good things that we were taught.

00:59:56.130 --> 00:59:58.991

He wants to hold on to that until his day.

00:59:59.918 --> 01:00:01.478

He spoke at my brother's funeral.

01:00:01.618 --> 01:00:01.998

Actually,

01:00:02.579 --> 01:00:03.819

they wouldn't let him speak at my

01:00:03.839 --> 01:00:04.659

brother's funeral because

01:00:04.699 --> 01:00:05.700

it was held in a church.

01:00:06.560 --> 01:00:07.800

So we did it at the graveside.

01:00:08.981 --> 01:00:10.401

Paul spoke there and he had

01:00:10.441 --> 01:00:12.362

written a poem.

01:00:12.682 --> 01:00:14.603

He and my brother, Dan were really,

01:00:14.663 --> 01:00:15.463

really close.

01:00:16.685 --> 01:00:19.267

And he wrote a beautiful poem and read it.

01:00:19.887 --> 01:00:21.148

And I've asked him to get me

01:00:21.188 --> 01:00:22.909

a copy and I don't know if he has it.

01:00:22.989 --> 01:00:24.910

Cause he hasn't ever responded to that.

01:00:26.311 --> 01:00:30.233

Um, they were really tight.

01:00:30.634 --> 01:00:32.575

And so I learned, um,

01:00:33.115 --> 01:00:34.636

about my brother through Paul.

01:00:35.177 --> 01:00:36.157

a lot of things that I

01:00:36.177 --> 01:00:37.638

didn't even know about my brother.

01:00:37.978 --> 01:00:41.880

He was, he was so busy and we had kind of,

01:00:42.320 --> 01:00:43.580

he's five years older than me.

01:00:43.961 --> 01:00:44.561

Um,

01:00:44.701 --> 01:00:47.862

I had gotten married so young that he

01:00:47.902 --> 01:00:49.983

was out doing Sunstone and all his stuff.

01:00:50.043 --> 01:00:53.304

And I was kind of like married, uh, mode,

01:00:54.105 --> 01:00:54.925

baby mode,

01:00:56.005 --> 01:00:57.446

paying attention to all the

01:00:57.486 --> 01:00:58.646

things that he was involved

01:00:58.726 --> 01:01:01.427

in and doing with Sunstone.

01:01:01.748 --> 01:01:02.408

But, um,

01:01:04.116 --> 01:01:05.336

What ended up happening is

01:01:05.396 --> 01:01:07.277

he was called in to be

01:01:08.317 --> 01:01:10.157

interviewed at the same

01:01:10.198 --> 01:01:13.178

time as the others, the September six, he,

01:01:13.378 --> 01:01:14.939

he would have been the number seven.

01:01:15.759 --> 01:01:18.159

Um, actually Margaret was number seven,

01:01:18.199 --> 01:01:18.980

Paul's wife.

01:01:19.140 --> 01:01:21.380

She was excommunicated a few months later,

01:01:22.180 --> 01:01:24.161

but Dan was called in at

01:01:24.181 --> 01:01:26.161

the same time and they did

01:01:26.301 --> 01:01:28.202

not excommunicate him.

01:01:28.502 --> 01:01:30.362

They disfellowshipped him,

01:01:31.343 --> 01:01:32.463

his temple recommend.

01:01:34.689 --> 01:01:35.429

He couldn't teach.

01:01:35.770 --> 01:01:37.151

He was teaching gospel doctrine.

01:01:37.171 --> 01:01:38.091

They took that away.

01:01:40.153 --> 01:01:42.855

So they punished him for being involved.

01:01:43.515 --> 01:01:45.696

And then he got a phone call

01:01:45.817 --> 01:01:48.999

from Boyd K. Packer where

01:01:51.260 --> 01:01:56.404

Boyd Packer issued an apostolic curse.

01:01:57.453 --> 01:01:59.095

I remember this story.

01:01:59.275 --> 01:02:00.716

Yes, I remember you telling this.

01:02:00.896 --> 01:02:01.196

Yes,

01:02:01.236 --> 01:02:02.758

please tell us about this because this

01:02:02.798 --> 01:02:04.639

is wild.

01:02:04.699 --> 01:02:05.440

It's just so...

01:02:08.415 --> 01:02:10.016

I'm just so appalled.

01:02:10.036 --> 01:02:11.977

It's literally a leader of

01:02:12.017 --> 01:02:13.639

the church saying, I curse you.

01:02:13.999 --> 01:02:16.141

Yeah.

01:02:16.181 --> 01:02:17.822

Because he didn't like that

01:02:17.882 --> 01:02:20.865

Dan was going to continue with Sunstone.

01:02:21.025 --> 01:02:22.206

Even though they threatened

01:02:22.246 --> 01:02:23.747

him up and down to leave,

01:02:24.167 --> 01:02:25.869

he wasn't going to until he

01:02:25.929 --> 01:02:27.210

finally did because they

01:02:27.230 --> 01:02:28.031

weren't paying him enough.

01:02:28.391 --> 01:02:30.513

He couldn't live on it.

01:02:30.553 --> 01:02:30.733

But

01:02:32.330 --> 01:02:34.291

Boyd K. Packer calls and says,

01:02:34.891 --> 01:02:37.672

I want you to stop doing this.

01:02:37.912 --> 01:02:38.892

I want you to stop.

01:02:39.072 --> 01:02:41.853

Just make Sunstone go away.

01:02:42.173 --> 01:02:44.754

You're causing problems with your father.

01:02:45.295 --> 01:02:47.455

People are confusing the two

01:02:47.495 --> 01:02:49.416

of you because Dan's name

01:02:49.456 --> 01:02:51.077

is Daniel Hartman Rector.

01:02:52.237 --> 01:02:54.118

So they were saying, you know,

01:02:54.198 --> 01:02:55.838

it's too closely tied together.

01:02:55.858 --> 01:02:56.919

People are getting confused.

01:02:56.959 --> 01:02:58.859

Is Hartman Rector doing Sunstone?

01:02:58.899 --> 01:02:59.059

Yeah.

01:02:59.159 --> 01:02:59.440

Yeah.

01:03:01.201 --> 01:03:03.481

Anyway, Dan said, you know,

01:03:03.661 --> 01:03:06.142

as as nicely as he this is

01:03:06.342 --> 01:03:07.682

I heard this story from him.

01:03:07.742 --> 01:03:09.163

So this is his spin.

01:03:09.643 --> 01:03:11.463

He said as nicely as he could.

01:03:11.543 --> 01:03:12.023

He said,

01:03:12.303 --> 01:03:16.744

I'm I understand why you want us to stop.

01:03:17.384 --> 01:03:19.925

But I feel like we need this forum.

01:03:20.305 --> 01:03:21.965

We need this platform.

01:03:22.385 --> 01:03:23.545

There are too many people

01:03:23.585 --> 01:03:25.006

with questions and you

01:03:25.046 --> 01:03:26.266

can't just make it go away.

01:03:27.185 --> 01:03:28.325

They need to have a place to

01:03:28.365 --> 01:03:31.647

talk and openly discuss

01:03:31.667 --> 01:03:32.747

because you couldn't do

01:03:32.767 --> 01:03:33.667

that in Sunday school.

01:03:34.187 --> 01:03:34.428

Right.

01:03:34.768 --> 01:03:35.688

Do it anywhere.

01:03:36.348 --> 01:03:39.149

So Dan was just, you know,

01:03:39.169 --> 01:03:40.089

he was just sort of

01:03:40.550 --> 01:03:41.830

jockeying for that

01:03:42.450 --> 01:03:44.011

opportunity to continue

01:03:44.051 --> 01:03:45.351

with that platform for

01:03:45.391 --> 01:03:47.132

people who were interested

01:03:47.232 --> 01:03:47.992

and had questions.

01:03:48.492 --> 01:03:52.614

And he said, if you don't do it, he said,

01:03:52.634 --> 01:03:55.995

I I'm speaking as an apostle right now.

01:03:57.163 --> 01:04:01.184

And I invoke, what do you say?

01:04:01.285 --> 01:04:02.289

I'm going to,

01:04:02.429 --> 01:04:04.329

I had to get the wording from my brother,

01:04:05.010 --> 01:04:07.451

but basically he said that

01:04:07.471 --> 01:04:09.051

it was an apostolic curse

01:04:09.211 --> 01:04:10.472

and that if he did not,

01:04:10.912 --> 01:04:12.352

and he said he would reap,

01:04:14.193 --> 01:04:18.475

he would reap disappointment and, uh,

01:04:19.295 --> 01:04:22.216

adversity for the rest of his life.

01:04:22.931 --> 01:04:23.571

Did he say,

01:04:23.691 --> 01:04:26.292

I pronounce upon you an apostolic curse?

01:04:27.312 --> 01:04:28.032

I don't remember.

01:04:28.672 --> 01:04:30.952

I seem to remember as part

01:04:30.992 --> 01:04:34.153

of your Mormon stories interview,

01:04:34.193 --> 01:04:36.453

sometimes those phrases stick in my mind.

01:04:36.493 --> 01:04:37.994

So anyway, I don't know if that's correct.

01:04:39.094 --> 01:04:40.554

He definitely made it known

01:04:40.574 --> 01:04:41.534

that he was speaking as an

01:04:41.594 --> 01:04:43.975

apostle and he was bringing

01:04:44.035 --> 01:04:47.215

down a curse on him.

01:04:48.155 --> 01:04:52.076

He would reap adversity for all his days.

01:04:53.729 --> 01:04:54.569

And then he died.

01:04:54.629 --> 01:04:55.870

He died so young.

01:04:56.090 --> 01:04:57.591

It was like, what?

01:04:58.851 --> 01:04:59.831

What just happened?

01:05:00.472 --> 01:05:01.112

So, I don't know.

01:05:02.232 --> 01:05:02.672

Anyway.

01:05:03.193 --> 01:05:06.654

So this brings up so much

01:05:07.034 --> 01:05:08.715

cognitive dissonance for me

01:05:08.755 --> 01:05:11.596

because we are taught that

01:05:11.976 --> 01:05:14.337

the apostles and the Quorum

01:05:14.357 --> 01:05:15.397

of the Twelve Apostles who

01:05:15.437 --> 01:05:17.178

helped lead the church are

01:05:17.258 --> 01:05:19.118

special witnesses of Jesus Christ.

01:05:19.578 --> 01:05:20.739

We are taught that they...

01:05:21.344 --> 01:05:23.265

communicate directly with Jesus Christ,

01:05:23.305 --> 01:05:25.107

that they are representative of him,

01:05:25.147 --> 01:05:27.869

that they know him intimately,

01:05:27.929 --> 01:05:28.950

that they know him better

01:05:28.990 --> 01:05:30.271

than anyone else does.

01:05:30.991 --> 01:05:33.313

And so to have someone whose

01:05:33.393 --> 01:05:34.754

authority is being threatened,

01:05:34.794 --> 01:05:36.195

whose official narrative is

01:05:36.235 --> 01:05:37.055

being threatened,

01:05:38.557 --> 01:05:42.640

to have that person curse someone,

01:05:42.960 --> 01:05:44.501

use their priesthood power,

01:05:44.881 --> 01:05:46.823

I'm always going to say priesthood power,

01:05:47.343 --> 01:05:48.644

to curse someone,

01:05:49.416 --> 01:05:51.358

Is that what Jesus would have done?

01:05:52.480 --> 01:05:53.341

Is that what one of the

01:05:53.381 --> 01:05:54.842

twelve apostles who were on

01:05:54.862 --> 01:05:56.404

the earth when Jesus was on the earth?

01:05:56.544 --> 01:05:57.365

Is that what they would have

01:05:57.405 --> 01:05:58.767

done if somebody was?

01:05:59.367 --> 01:05:59.988

No, no.

01:06:00.068 --> 01:06:00.268

I mean,

01:06:00.529 --> 01:06:01.990

what Paul did was he wrote all the

01:06:02.050 --> 01:06:03.292

he wrote letters to people.

01:06:03.472 --> 01:06:04.553

If they were, you know,

01:06:04.713 --> 01:06:05.754

doing something bad,

01:06:06.355 --> 01:06:08.117

write him a letter and say, hey, stop it.

01:06:08.477 --> 01:06:10.279

That's not what Jesus taught, you know.

01:06:11.581 --> 01:06:12.863

Um, so I'm curious too,

01:06:12.903 --> 01:06:13.704

about one other point.

01:06:13.784 --> 01:06:14.926

Why do you think it is that

01:06:14.946 --> 01:06:15.887

your brother was not

01:06:15.987 --> 01:06:17.850

excommunicated at the time?

01:06:17.870 --> 01:06:18.711

Why was he only

01:06:18.751 --> 01:06:21.055

disfellowshipped at the time?

01:06:21.115 --> 01:06:21.355

Well,

01:06:21.655 --> 01:06:25.701

I think he went in with a really

01:06:25.741 --> 01:06:26.943

humble knowing my brother.

01:06:28.214 --> 01:06:30.697

I know that it's, it's tricky.

01:06:30.837 --> 01:06:31.498

I'm not sure.

01:06:31.938 --> 01:06:32.759

I should just say that.

01:06:32.959 --> 01:06:34.101

I don't really know why they

01:06:34.121 --> 01:06:37.965

came down on the side that they came down,

01:06:37.985 --> 01:06:39.727

but I have my suspicions.

01:06:39.767 --> 01:06:41.929

And I think Dan, Dan was just,

01:06:42.349 --> 01:06:44.151

he was such a sweet person.

01:06:44.812 --> 01:06:47.295

He never meant anyone, anything,

01:06:47.575 --> 01:06:48.436

anyone harm.

01:06:48.556 --> 01:06:49.537

Like he would take,

01:06:50.568 --> 01:06:52.590

spiders outside and let them go.

01:06:52.710 --> 01:06:55.632

He would catch a fly and set it free.

01:06:55.652 --> 01:06:58.214

Like he couldn't harm anything.

01:06:58.614 --> 01:07:03.397

And so he, I think what he said was,

01:07:04.498 --> 01:07:06.720

I'm sorry that if I feel

01:07:06.740 --> 01:07:08.661

like I've offended you guys,

01:07:08.901 --> 01:07:10.102

I'm just trying to make a

01:07:10.122 --> 01:07:12.724

space for people to,

01:07:12.904 --> 01:07:14.906

to talk about concerns.

01:07:15.026 --> 01:07:17.227

And we want to talk about, you know, we're,

01:07:17.267 --> 01:07:18.348

we love the church.

01:07:18.808 --> 01:07:19.429

We love,

01:07:19.979 --> 01:07:20.640

the doctrine.

01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:22.521

We want to talk about it more.

01:07:22.601 --> 01:07:24.162

We want more information.

01:07:24.242 --> 01:07:24.762

We, you know,

01:07:25.243 --> 01:07:26.364

it's not that we're trying to

01:07:26.384 --> 01:07:27.284

bring the church down

01:07:27.324 --> 01:07:28.405

because I don't think any

01:07:28.465 --> 01:07:29.406

of them really were.

01:07:29.546 --> 01:07:30.947

I don't think that was the goal.

01:07:31.347 --> 01:07:33.008

They just wanted to talk about things.

01:07:33.909 --> 01:07:34.850

Um, and they were, they,

01:07:35.010 --> 01:07:36.611

they knew things that

01:07:36.791 --> 01:07:37.652

weren't being taught.

01:07:38.312 --> 01:07:40.093

So they discussed that.

01:07:40.914 --> 01:07:43.036

And I think maybe because of my dad, um,

01:07:43.778 --> 01:07:45.619

I think my dad had some influence there.

01:07:46.160 --> 01:07:46.680

Okay.

01:07:46.700 --> 01:07:48.121

I think they realized that

01:07:48.201 --> 01:07:49.722

it would look really bad if

01:07:49.763 --> 01:07:50.683

Hartman Richter Jr.'

01:07:50.643 --> 01:07:52.384

's son was excommunicated.

01:07:53.485 --> 01:07:53.806

You know,

01:07:53.986 --> 01:07:55.327

I think they just put a lot of

01:07:55.367 --> 01:07:57.068

things into consideration

01:07:57.248 --> 01:07:58.809

before they made that decision.

01:07:58.909 --> 01:07:59.170

Yeah.

01:07:59.650 --> 01:08:01.031

So then how long,

01:08:01.511 --> 01:08:02.672

I know you probably said already,

01:08:02.692 --> 01:08:03.733

but how long after the

01:08:03.753 --> 01:08:05.074

disciplinary council did he

01:08:05.134 --> 01:08:06.935

receive his apostolic curse?

01:08:07.976 --> 01:08:08.937

I think it was before that.

01:08:09.610 --> 01:08:10.351

Oh, okay.

01:08:10.871 --> 01:08:11.131

Wow.

01:08:11.411 --> 01:08:11.671

Okay.

01:08:12.251 --> 01:08:12.452

So,

01:08:13.112 --> 01:08:16.274

so Boyd Packer cursed Dan and then he

01:08:16.294 --> 01:08:17.354

went into a disciplinary

01:08:17.394 --> 01:08:18.154

council and they didn't

01:08:18.215 --> 01:08:18.975

excommunicate him.

01:08:19.475 --> 01:08:20.055

Right.

01:08:20.075 --> 01:08:21.276

I find that really interesting.

01:08:22.577 --> 01:08:22.877

Yeah.

01:08:22.977 --> 01:08:24.258

And like I said,

01:08:24.438 --> 01:08:25.738

I think there were more

01:08:25.778 --> 01:08:27.919

voices involved in the,

01:08:28.520 --> 01:08:29.740

whether they excommunicated

01:08:29.800 --> 01:08:32.822

or not these guys and they,

01:08:32.842 --> 01:08:34.803

because my dad was a general authority,

01:08:34.943 --> 01:08:36.904

I think that must've played into it.

01:08:37.288 --> 01:08:37.848

Yeah.

01:08:37.888 --> 01:08:38.269

Maybe,

01:08:39.189 --> 01:08:41.531

maybe somebody at Boyd K Packers

01:08:41.651 --> 01:08:43.352

level talked him down a

01:08:43.372 --> 01:08:44.492

little bit and said, look,

01:08:44.533 --> 01:08:45.793

we can't excommunicate this

01:08:45.833 --> 01:08:47.734

guy and here are the reasons why.

01:08:47.995 --> 01:08:49.075

And that got filtered down

01:08:49.115 --> 01:08:50.196

to the stake presidency.

01:08:50.976 --> 01:08:51.477

Right.

01:08:51.537 --> 01:08:54.238

He hadn't spoken any of the commandments.

01:08:54.279 --> 01:08:56.140

Like he hadn't done anything

01:08:56.220 --> 01:08:58.441

wrong that they could really cite.

01:08:59.182 --> 01:09:01.563

Dan wasn't even speaking.

01:09:01.623 --> 01:09:02.664

He was the editor.

01:09:02.884 --> 01:09:04.665

He wasn't like, he wasn't,

01:09:06.341 --> 01:09:08.563

He wasn't doing the articles himself.

01:09:09.244 --> 01:09:10.965

He was involved in all of it,

01:09:10.985 --> 01:09:13.107

but he wasn't the one that

01:09:13.147 --> 01:09:14.569

was complaining about things.

01:09:15.169 --> 01:09:15.429

You know,

01:09:15.469 --> 01:09:17.031

he wasn't talking about mother in heaven.

01:09:17.451 --> 01:09:18.192

He wasn't talking.

01:09:18.672 --> 01:09:20.634

So, so really they couldn't,

01:09:22.376 --> 01:09:23.136

the only thing they could

01:09:23.176 --> 01:09:25.599

do is guilt by association, really.

01:09:26.539 --> 01:09:26.660

So,

01:09:27.968 --> 01:09:28.148

Yeah,

01:09:28.208 --> 01:09:29.948

so he was just creating a space for

01:09:29.988 --> 01:09:31.289

people to have the conversation.

01:09:31.389 --> 01:09:33.229

He wasn't the one having the conversation,

01:09:33.269 --> 01:09:34.790

so maybe that was a part of it as well.

01:09:35.790 --> 01:09:37.710

Okay, and so then, you know,

01:09:37.850 --> 01:09:40.071

I obviously don't, you know,

01:09:40.151 --> 01:09:41.071

talk about anything that

01:09:41.111 --> 01:09:43.271

you don't feel comfortable talking about,

01:09:43.351 --> 01:09:45.632

but you said that he died young.

01:09:47.592 --> 01:09:48.452

So I'm curious,

01:09:48.492 --> 01:09:49.473

I'm just curious about how

01:09:49.533 --> 01:09:51.913

old he was and how he died,

01:09:53.394 --> 01:09:54.674

just from the standpoint that

01:09:56.049 --> 01:09:57.650

Um, you know, that must've been really,

01:09:57.710 --> 01:09:58.791

really awful for you.

01:10:00.312 --> 01:10:02.954

Oh, it was, it was, it was, he was my,

01:10:03.594 --> 01:10:04.575

I adored my brother.

01:10:04.695 --> 01:10:04.975

He was,

01:10:05.395 --> 01:10:09.338

we were very close and I looked up

01:10:09.378 --> 01:10:09.818

to him.

01:10:10.018 --> 01:10:10.398

I just,

01:10:10.778 --> 01:10:12.099

I thought the world of my brother

01:10:12.860 --> 01:10:14.501

and he was a good brother

01:10:14.821 --> 01:10:16.982

and really good uncle to my kids.

01:10:17.703 --> 01:10:18.583

Anyway, he was.

01:10:19.384 --> 01:10:20.344

Forty six.

01:10:20.925 --> 01:10:24.067

Um, he was an avid outdoor enthusiast.

01:10:24.746 --> 01:10:27.728

And he did this morning hike every day,

01:10:28.509 --> 01:10:29.990

like before the sun came up

01:10:30.190 --> 01:10:32.012

with a headlamp and he had

01:10:32.032 --> 01:10:33.473

a that did it with them.

01:10:33.573 --> 01:10:37.816

And there was a, a peak on, uh,

01:10:37.976 --> 01:10:41.178

Mount superior up kind of near snowbird,

01:10:41.239 --> 01:10:41.619

I guess.

01:10:41.719 --> 01:10:43.320

I'm not sure exactly where it's located.

01:10:44.241 --> 01:10:45.882

He would do this hike and it

01:10:45.922 --> 01:10:47.703

was very narrow and steep.

01:10:48.664 --> 01:10:50.546

Um, literally they're, they're,

01:10:50.786 --> 01:10:52.227

they're walking up a.

01:10:53.506 --> 01:10:55.248

and what can i what can i

01:10:55.288 --> 01:10:56.830

call that it's like a point

01:10:56.950 --> 01:10:58.152

like a knife point where

01:10:58.172 --> 01:11:00.254

the rocks come like the

01:11:00.274 --> 01:11:02.236

mountain ridge yes yeah

01:11:02.276 --> 01:11:03.938

thank you that's it's a

01:11:03.998 --> 01:11:06.501

ridgeline hike yes yeah and

01:11:06.521 --> 01:11:07.582

it's very steep on both

01:11:07.623 --> 01:11:09.745

sides so and they're

01:11:10.246 --> 01:11:12.108

they're not using any um

01:11:13.582 --> 01:11:15.223

Equipment it's all just free.

01:11:15.243 --> 01:11:16.543

They're just walking with, you know,

01:11:16.643 --> 01:11:17.704

no ropes or anything.

01:11:18.344 --> 01:11:19.705

Um, it was very dangerous,

01:11:19.825 --> 01:11:21.306

but he did that every

01:11:21.386 --> 01:11:22.426

morning before work.

01:11:22.486 --> 01:11:23.427

That was his hiking.

01:11:23.447 --> 01:11:24.267

It was trying to beat his

01:11:24.327 --> 01:11:27.869

time and loved the risk.

01:11:28.089 --> 01:11:30.910

He, he loved, it was like a thrill,

01:11:31.330 --> 01:11:31.550

you know,

01:11:31.570 --> 01:11:33.051

it was one of those adrenaline

01:11:33.171 --> 01:11:34.572

junkie kind of things, I guess.

01:11:34.972 --> 01:11:37.113

And his son, whose name is Hartman Rector.

01:11:38.705 --> 01:11:40.246

It does jumps out of planes

01:11:40.326 --> 01:11:42.767

with a squirrel shoot squirrel suit.

01:11:42.987 --> 01:11:43.267

Sorry.

01:11:43.327 --> 01:11:44.707

And flies through camp.

01:11:44.747 --> 01:11:46.288

Like you can see it on YouTube.

01:11:46.328 --> 01:11:48.469

Look up Hartman Rector loves to fly.

01:11:49.609 --> 01:11:49.669

Wow.

01:11:49.689 --> 01:11:50.570

What I'm talking about.

01:11:50.750 --> 01:11:52.951

It's insane, but it's in their blood,

01:11:52.971 --> 01:11:53.331

I guess.

01:11:53.391 --> 01:11:55.232

But so Dan did that.

01:11:55.332 --> 01:11:58.373

And one morning, like any other morning,

01:11:58.533 --> 01:12:00.113

he was with his buddy and

01:12:00.554 --> 01:12:03.055

he just slipped.

01:12:03.195 --> 01:12:04.095

And he went,

01:12:04.595 --> 01:12:05.776

they said over three hundred

01:12:05.796 --> 01:12:06.536

and fifty feet.

01:12:07.166 --> 01:12:08.906

to his worry ended up

01:12:09.627 --> 01:12:12.467

stopping because it was so steep.

01:12:12.688 --> 01:12:16.989

You would just tumble, you know,

01:12:17.149 --> 01:12:20.090

and broke almost every bone in his body.

01:12:21.770 --> 01:12:22.590

So it was really,

01:12:22.770 --> 01:12:25.231

it was really sad because he was so fit.

01:12:25.291 --> 01:12:26.371

He was so happy.

01:12:26.471 --> 01:12:29.312

He was such a good, cheerful person.

01:12:30.172 --> 01:12:32.173

Um, it's just, it was just a loss.

01:12:32.273 --> 01:12:32.433

Yeah.

01:12:33.893 --> 01:12:34.774

And he had, you know,

01:12:34.794 --> 01:12:36.314

a wife and four kids and

01:12:37.792 --> 01:12:38.913

It was only forty six.

01:12:39.273 --> 01:12:40.673

You know,

01:12:40.713 --> 01:12:42.834

I've outlived him by almost

01:12:42.874 --> 01:12:43.735

twenty years now.

01:12:43.815 --> 01:12:44.035

It's just.

01:12:44.055 --> 01:12:47.957

Well, it was so sorry.

01:12:49.798 --> 01:12:50.418

Yeah, thank you.

01:12:50.618 --> 01:12:51.719

Thank you.

01:12:51.779 --> 01:12:53.019

So your relationship with

01:12:53.059 --> 01:12:55.460

him played into a little

01:12:55.480 --> 01:12:58.302

bit into your exit from the faith.

01:12:58.582 --> 01:13:00.223

I know we're sort of jumping ahead.

01:13:00.263 --> 01:13:02.584

So so after you read that book.

01:13:03.965 --> 01:13:05.026

Were you still in the church

01:13:05.086 --> 01:13:08.088

when Paul asked you to read

01:13:08.108 --> 01:13:09.409

that book about spiritual abuse?

01:13:09.750 --> 01:13:09.870

Oh,

01:13:09.950 --> 01:13:11.671

that just happened like in the last six

01:13:11.731 --> 01:13:12.051

months.

01:13:12.552 --> 01:13:13.112

Oh, wow.

01:13:13.793 --> 01:13:14.794

Yeah, that's recent.

01:13:14.834 --> 01:13:15.114

Wow.

01:13:15.374 --> 01:13:15.674

Okay.

01:13:16.475 --> 01:13:17.376

So do you want to talk a

01:13:17.396 --> 01:13:18.496

little bit about what

01:13:20.118 --> 01:13:21.259

started to lead you away?

01:13:21.299 --> 01:13:22.860

Because you had said your

01:13:22.920 --> 01:13:23.861

oldest brother left.

01:13:24.221 --> 01:13:25.542

That was a cautionary tale.

01:13:26.302 --> 01:13:26.723

And then...

01:13:28.716 --> 01:13:29.677

Dan happened.

01:13:29.917 --> 01:13:32.018

And then Dan and Sunstone, everything, he,

01:13:32.198 --> 01:13:33.659

he wasn't excommunicated.

01:13:33.679 --> 01:13:34.039

Right.

01:13:34.699 --> 01:13:35.780

And so then what happened

01:13:35.840 --> 01:13:37.080

with your faith after that?

01:13:37.841 --> 01:13:38.141

Well,

01:13:38.521 --> 01:13:40.462

I have a younger brother who had

01:13:40.902 --> 01:13:41.622

stepped away,

01:13:41.983 --> 01:13:43.643

but had been very quiet about it.

01:13:44.044 --> 01:13:45.104

And a younger sister,

01:13:45.684 --> 01:13:47.085

my baby sister had stepped

01:13:47.105 --> 01:13:48.866

away and they had done it

01:13:49.006 --> 01:13:51.187

kind of undercover without

01:13:51.207 --> 01:13:53.228

telling my parents, my dad,

01:13:53.288 --> 01:13:55.369

my mom had Alzheimer's by now.

01:13:55.609 --> 01:13:55.669

Um,

01:13:56.424 --> 01:13:57.344

So she didn't really know

01:13:57.384 --> 01:13:58.505

what anything that was happening.

01:13:58.725 --> 01:13:59.865

She kept forgetting that Dan

01:13:59.905 --> 01:14:02.246

had died and it was relive

01:14:02.266 --> 01:14:03.167

that over and over.

01:14:03.287 --> 01:14:04.888

She kept asking, where's Daniel?

01:14:05.008 --> 01:14:06.088

And we would tell her and

01:14:06.108 --> 01:14:07.389

she would just fall apart.

01:14:08.389 --> 01:14:09.870

Anyway, that's a whole other story.

01:14:09.890 --> 01:14:13.111

But so my younger brother

01:14:13.191 --> 01:14:15.092

had left and he had pointed

01:14:15.172 --> 01:14:17.273

out to me the problematic

01:14:17.293 --> 01:14:19.073

things about the book of Abraham.

01:14:20.034 --> 01:14:21.394

One day we were,

01:14:21.414 --> 01:14:22.415

we were packing up my

01:14:22.475 --> 01:14:24.195

parents things in their house.

01:14:24.556 --> 01:14:25.376

They were moving and,

01:14:26.179 --> 01:14:27.280

And there was all these

01:14:27.340 --> 01:14:30.621

pictures that my dad had of the, um,

01:14:31.582 --> 01:14:34.823

the papyrus and they had

01:14:34.843 --> 01:14:35.824

taken them off the wall.

01:14:35.924 --> 01:14:37.505

And I noticed that they

01:14:37.545 --> 01:14:39.125

hadn't been on the wall for a long time.

01:14:39.165 --> 01:14:39.546

And I said,

01:14:39.726 --> 01:14:41.286

why did you take these down dad?

01:14:42.307 --> 01:14:44.128

And John elbowed me, my brother,

01:14:44.168 --> 01:14:44.928

John elbowed me.

01:14:44.948 --> 01:14:47.369

And he said, don't, don't go there.

01:14:48.450 --> 01:14:49.590

And I was like, why, why,

01:14:49.971 --> 01:14:50.791

why can't I go there?

01:14:51.398 --> 01:14:52.979

And he goes, don't you, have you heard,

01:14:53.079 --> 01:14:54.340

do you know about the whole

01:14:54.380 --> 01:14:55.881

problem with the book of Abraham?

01:14:55.941 --> 01:15:02.244

And I said, no, what are we talking about?

01:15:02.585 --> 01:15:03.325

And he goes, well,

01:15:03.445 --> 01:15:05.006

I'll talk to him in a minute about it.

01:15:05.026 --> 01:15:06.387

You know, when dad's not around.

01:15:06.967 --> 01:15:12.070

So he took me aside a while later and said,

01:15:12.851 --> 01:15:14.312

dad took them down because

01:15:14.352 --> 01:15:16.213

he found out from somebody

01:15:17.153 --> 01:15:19.715

that there's all this, um,

01:15:21.661 --> 01:15:22.862

there's problems with the

01:15:22.882 --> 01:15:25.443

book of Abraham and that, you know,

01:15:25.583 --> 01:15:26.843

it doesn't say anything

01:15:27.003 --> 01:15:29.224

about Abraham and that it's,

01:15:29.364 --> 01:15:31.405

it's just a funerary text

01:15:31.565 --> 01:15:33.205

that they put in with all the mummies,

01:15:33.285 --> 01:15:33.586

you know?

01:15:33.606 --> 01:15:35.206

And it's like nothing,

01:15:35.246 --> 01:15:37.067

what he'd said it was.

01:15:37.167 --> 01:15:38.567

And I was stunned.

01:15:38.607 --> 01:15:41.028

You know, I said, what?

01:15:41.449 --> 01:15:43.189

I said, it's still in the scriptures,

01:15:43.569 --> 01:15:45.130

that facsimile.

01:15:46.330 --> 01:15:48.111

So like, if it's not true,

01:15:48.191 --> 01:15:49.572

why wouldn't they have taken that out?

01:15:50.052 --> 01:15:50.612

He goes, well,

01:15:51.395 --> 01:15:53.195

you know, your dad, our dad,

01:15:53.755 --> 01:15:55.716

dad wants to think that

01:15:56.256 --> 01:15:57.196

there's going to be some

01:15:57.236 --> 01:15:58.176

more evidence that's going

01:15:58.196 --> 01:15:59.077

to come out later.

01:15:59.277 --> 01:16:01.517

But right now he, he feels embarrassed.

01:16:01.537 --> 01:16:04.278

So he took them off the wall anyway.

01:16:04.498 --> 01:16:06.238

So we talked about that.

01:16:06.358 --> 01:16:08.038

And I was like, John, are you,

01:16:08.499 --> 01:16:09.659

are you going to church anymore?

01:16:09.679 --> 01:16:11.019

Cause at this time he lived

01:16:11.059 --> 01:16:13.820

in Idaho and he was a professor at BYU,

01:16:13.920 --> 01:16:14.380

Idaho.

01:16:15.200 --> 01:16:17.420

And he was like, that's on the down low.

01:16:17.460 --> 01:16:20.241

He goes, I, I go because I have to,

01:16:20.341 --> 01:16:20.681

because I'm

01:16:20.989 --> 01:16:21.589

don't go.

01:16:21.729 --> 01:16:24.791

I'll lose my, I'll lose my, um,

01:16:25.872 --> 01:16:26.912

whatever they call it.

01:16:27.773 --> 01:16:28.353

His job.

01:16:29.274 --> 01:16:29.694

Yeah.

01:16:30.714 --> 01:16:34.036

Um, so he said, so don't, you know,

01:16:34.116 --> 01:16:35.217

we can't talk about that.

01:16:36.157 --> 01:16:37.398

And I was like, okay, but are you,

01:16:37.478 --> 01:16:38.158

do you believe?

01:16:38.218 --> 01:16:38.879

And he said, no.

01:16:40.609 --> 01:16:42.171

And that kind of planted a

01:16:42.231 --> 01:16:43.813

seed because my brother,

01:16:43.933 --> 01:16:44.694

my younger brother,

01:16:44.754 --> 01:16:47.217

John is one of those intellectuals.

01:16:47.257 --> 01:16:48.339

He's super smart.

01:16:48.359 --> 01:16:49.680

He knows a lot of stuff and

01:16:49.720 --> 01:16:52.063

he was just the type that

01:16:52.103 --> 01:16:55.087

would figure it out if it wasn't true.

01:16:55.167 --> 01:16:55.928

And I knew that.

01:16:56.575 --> 01:16:56.915

Yeah.

01:16:57.376 --> 01:16:57.576

Yeah.

01:16:58.016 --> 01:16:58.897

So I just want to show

01:16:58.937 --> 01:17:00.778

people what we're talking about,

01:17:00.818 --> 01:17:02.339

because my listeners, obviously,

01:17:02.379 --> 01:17:03.620

who have never been Mormon.

01:17:04.500 --> 01:17:06.522

So the Book of Abraham came

01:17:06.562 --> 01:17:07.923

about because there was a

01:17:08.003 --> 01:17:09.424

salesman passing through town.

01:17:09.564 --> 01:17:09.764

Right.

01:17:10.084 --> 01:17:11.825

Stop me if I if I'm getting this wrong,

01:17:11.845 --> 01:17:12.926

because some of my Mormon

01:17:12.966 --> 01:17:14.847

brain cells have died,

01:17:14.867 --> 01:17:15.828

which I'm happy about.

01:17:16.068 --> 01:17:16.949

Yeah.

01:17:17.129 --> 01:17:18.610

But there were there were

01:17:18.630 --> 01:17:19.931

some people passing through town.

01:17:19.951 --> 01:17:21.292

They claimed that they had

01:17:22.053 --> 01:17:23.594

these Egyptian mummies and

01:17:23.654 --> 01:17:25.616

these what they called papyri,

01:17:25.636 --> 01:17:26.617

which is what you're seeing

01:17:26.677 --> 01:17:27.537

here on the screen.

01:17:28.278 --> 01:17:32.902

This sort of Egyptian looking hieroglyph.

01:17:33.923 --> 01:17:36.805

And Joseph Smith said, oh, my gosh,

01:17:36.845 --> 01:17:38.867

this is ancient scripture.

01:17:38.927 --> 01:17:40.848

Give it to me and I will translate it.

01:17:41.749 --> 01:17:43.770

And it became the Book of Abraham,

01:17:43.951 --> 01:17:48.093

which talks a lot about the

01:17:48.233 --> 01:17:49.494

formation of the world.

01:17:50.275 --> 01:17:51.536

Or is that, am I getting that right?

01:17:52.196 --> 01:17:52.376

Yeah.

01:17:52.396 --> 01:17:53.957

It's in the Pearl of Great Price, right?

01:17:54.197 --> 01:17:55.078

Yeah.

01:17:55.098 --> 01:17:55.458

Which is,

01:17:55.818 --> 01:17:57.960

so the Mormon canon of scripture

01:17:58.080 --> 01:17:59.841

is the Bible, the Book of Mormon,

01:18:00.361 --> 01:18:01.502

the Doctrine and Covenants,

01:18:01.542 --> 01:18:03.003

which were the revelations

01:18:03.023 --> 01:18:04.364

given to Joseph Smith while

01:18:04.404 --> 01:18:05.365

he was leading the church.

01:18:05.825 --> 01:18:07.146

And then the Pearl of Great Price,

01:18:07.166 --> 01:18:08.487

which contained the,

01:18:09.007 --> 01:18:11.008

You know, the translation, quote unquote,

01:18:11.029 --> 01:18:12.530

that Joseph made from these

01:18:13.390 --> 01:18:15.111

papyri that he bought from

01:18:15.151 --> 01:18:16.833

a traveling salesman, essentially.

01:18:18.173 --> 01:18:19.875

And so then it came out later.

01:18:20.015 --> 01:18:20.895

Now, back then,

01:18:21.156 --> 01:18:23.097

there was not a

01:18:23.157 --> 01:18:25.358

proliferation of Egyptologists around.

01:18:26.319 --> 01:18:27.681

to say whether or not what

01:18:27.721 --> 01:18:29.102

Joseph Smith translated was

01:18:29.122 --> 01:18:29.863

a translation.

01:18:30.583 --> 01:18:31.645

And so I think he probably

01:18:31.685 --> 01:18:33.326

just believed that he was

01:18:33.346 --> 01:18:35.128

going to get away with that, you know.

01:18:35.729 --> 01:18:36.610

And then later on,

01:18:36.690 --> 01:18:39.132

some Egyptologists did look at it and say,

01:18:39.853 --> 01:18:41.635

this is not a book of scripture.

01:18:41.715 --> 01:18:43.477

It has nothing to do with

01:18:43.677 --> 01:18:45.479

anything ancient scripture wise.

01:18:45.599 --> 01:18:47.861

It is just instructions on

01:18:47.941 --> 01:18:49.543

how to conduct a funeral ceremony.

01:18:51.359 --> 01:18:53.981

and an embalming and how to

01:18:54.081 --> 01:18:56.103

embalm and it's so look you

01:18:56.123 --> 01:18:57.604

know looking back at it now

01:18:57.644 --> 01:18:59.065

like that joseph smith gave

01:18:59.125 --> 01:19:00.646

us this interpretation of

01:19:00.686 --> 01:19:03.529

what this was about looking

01:19:03.569 --> 01:19:05.050

back on it now it's very

01:19:05.090 --> 01:19:07.351

clear to see the jars that

01:19:07.652 --> 01:19:09.193

you know that that they

01:19:09.213 --> 01:19:10.634

would put the organs in it

01:19:10.714 --> 01:19:11.935

totally does look like an

01:19:11.955 --> 01:19:13.556

embalming type of a you

01:19:13.576 --> 01:19:15.077

know ceremony or whatever so but

01:19:15.918 --> 01:19:16.839

you know when you when you

01:19:16.879 --> 01:19:18.000

believe joseph smith was a

01:19:18.060 --> 01:19:19.360

prophet then that means

01:19:19.561 --> 01:19:20.821

everything that he taught

01:19:20.902 --> 01:19:22.563

was from god whether or not

01:19:22.603 --> 01:19:24.824

it makes sense right so

01:19:24.864 --> 01:19:25.565

there's that thought

01:19:25.605 --> 01:19:27.066

stopping technique and then

01:19:27.326 --> 01:19:29.688

what so what year was it

01:19:29.988 --> 01:19:32.229

that this came about because i

01:19:33.398 --> 01:19:34.319

didn't even know about the

01:19:34.339 --> 01:19:35.580

book of Abraham until after

01:19:35.620 --> 01:19:36.921

I left the church two years ago.

01:19:38.782 --> 01:19:40.383

Well, that's just it, you know,

01:19:40.503 --> 01:19:42.625

it's been out there for a long time.

01:19:43.245 --> 01:19:45.687

Uh, well before the September six, I mean,

01:19:45.767 --> 01:19:46.148

wow,

01:19:46.688 --> 01:19:48.529

this is something that the church has

01:19:48.569 --> 01:19:51.912

been aware of for a long, quite a while.

01:19:51.992 --> 01:19:54.974

I don't know when the Rosetta stone, see,

01:19:55.014 --> 01:19:57.196

I wish I came with, with all my, you know,

01:19:57.216 --> 01:19:58.877

with documentation for everything,

01:19:59.418 --> 01:20:01.339

but once they were able to

01:20:01.379 --> 01:20:02.500

translate Egyptian,

01:20:03.711 --> 01:20:08.654

Even the BYU Egyptologists had to say, oh,

01:20:08.774 --> 01:20:11.356

yeah, this isn't what Joseph said it was.

01:20:11.896 --> 01:20:12.877

It's not any of it.

01:20:13.077 --> 01:20:14.017

None of it is right.

01:20:14.357 --> 01:20:16.579

Not one word of it.

01:20:16.679 --> 01:20:19.361

And he referred back to, you know,

01:20:19.401 --> 01:20:21.182

figure A or figure one or

01:20:21.242 --> 01:20:22.062

two or whatever.

01:20:22.122 --> 01:20:24.324

So it's not like and he put

01:20:24.364 --> 01:20:25.084

numbers together.

01:20:25.384 --> 01:20:27.606

And he even filled in parts

01:20:27.646 --> 01:20:30.328

that were missing and drew

01:20:30.548 --> 01:20:32.610

what he thought it was like.

01:20:32.830 --> 01:20:34.691

And it wasn't at all what it

01:20:34.711 --> 01:20:35.732

was supposed to be because

01:20:35.772 --> 01:20:38.294

they have lots and lots of these.

01:20:38.654 --> 01:20:39.475

This is something that

01:20:39.535 --> 01:20:41.156

happened almost every time

01:20:41.176 --> 01:20:42.197

they buried someone,

01:20:42.277 --> 01:20:43.698

they would put one of these in.

01:20:44.743 --> 01:20:47.127

the tomb or the whatever.

01:20:47.248 --> 01:20:48.229

And the sarcophagus.

01:20:48.690 --> 01:20:49.592

Yeah.

01:20:49.872 --> 01:20:53.078

And so it wasn't anything.

01:20:53.358 --> 01:20:53.959

I mean,

01:20:53.979 --> 01:20:55.642

they've got lots and lots of these in

01:20:56.708 --> 01:20:57.888

all kinds of museums.

01:20:58.109 --> 01:20:59.089

So they know what it was

01:20:59.109 --> 01:21:00.109

supposed to look like,

01:21:00.790 --> 01:21:02.210

and Joseph Smith drew it in,

01:21:02.350 --> 01:21:04.311

or had an artist do it or something,

01:21:04.331 --> 01:21:06.392

and it's completely wrong.

01:21:07.772 --> 01:21:09.413

So I'm just looking this up

01:21:09.473 --> 01:21:11.154

here because I was curious to know.

01:21:11.254 --> 01:21:13.415

So it says, in the year, in the year,

01:21:13.475 --> 01:21:14.555

fragments of the Joseph

01:21:14.575 --> 01:21:15.395

Smith papyri were

01:21:15.455 --> 01:21:16.496

rediscovered in the New

01:21:16.516 --> 01:21:18.957

York Metropolitan Museum of Art.

01:21:19.097 --> 01:21:20.977

In ,

01:21:20.477 --> 01:21:21.758

eleven of those fragments were

01:21:21.798 --> 01:21:22.798

returned to the Church of

01:21:22.838 --> 01:21:24.239

Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

01:21:25.139 --> 01:21:26.400

And critics concluded that

01:21:26.440 --> 01:21:27.820

Joseph Smith fabricated the

01:21:27.840 --> 01:21:28.981

Book of Abraham because the

01:21:29.001 --> 01:21:30.301

fragments did not contain

01:21:30.521 --> 01:21:32.382

any of the Book of Abraham text.

01:21:33.062 --> 01:21:34.543

And then in twenty fourteen,

01:21:34.803 --> 01:21:35.843

University of Chicago

01:21:35.923 --> 01:21:37.904

Egyptologist Robert Rittner

01:21:38.044 --> 01:21:39.805

concluded that the Book of Abraham was,

01:21:40.205 --> 01:21:40.485

quote,

01:21:40.625 --> 01:21:42.826

an erroneous invention by Joseph Smith.

01:21:43.486 --> 01:21:44.927

And then the church

01:21:44.967 --> 01:21:46.887

officially revised its

01:21:46.967 --> 01:21:50.269

explanation in twenty thirteen.

01:21:50.389 --> 01:21:52.329

OK, so back in the sixties,

01:21:52.910 --> 01:21:53.610

they they knew.

01:21:54.689 --> 01:21:55.370

Yep.

01:21:55.390 --> 01:21:56.531

Did you watch any of Robert

01:21:56.911 --> 01:21:59.734

Rittner with RFM?

01:21:59.914 --> 01:22:00.394

I did not.

01:22:00.434 --> 01:22:03.097

There's so much to dig into.

01:22:03.257 --> 01:22:04.518

And I've only been out.

01:22:04.919 --> 01:22:06.660

I only started looking at

01:22:07.060 --> 01:22:12.445

truth claims in December of

01:22:12.526 --> 01:22:13.466

twenty twenty two.

01:22:13.887 --> 01:22:14.628

Oh, goodness.

01:22:15.068 --> 01:22:15.368

Yeah.

01:22:16.129 --> 01:22:17.530

I resigned my membership in

01:22:17.730 --> 01:22:20.133

February of twenty twenty three.

01:22:21.805 --> 01:22:22.065

Yeah.

01:22:22.165 --> 01:22:23.126

So you're, yeah.

01:22:23.866 --> 01:22:25.347

I'm a baby in this space.

01:22:25.868 --> 01:22:27.169

There's a lot I still don't know.

01:22:27.569 --> 01:22:28.750

There's a lot I don't know.

01:22:28.950 --> 01:22:31.251

So yeah, I left in twenty nineteen.

01:22:31.331 --> 01:22:35.534

So yeah, you're those were really cool.

01:22:35.594 --> 01:22:38.876

Those those interviews with

01:22:39.036 --> 01:22:40.778

RFM and Robert Rittner,

01:22:40.858 --> 01:22:42.319

he ended up passing away

01:22:42.359 --> 01:22:45.601

shortly after he had cancer or something.

01:22:45.761 --> 01:22:47.282

We knew that he wasn't going to live long,

01:22:47.462 --> 01:22:48.763

but he got all of these

01:22:49.637 --> 01:22:51.818

this information out and it was brilliant.

01:22:51.998 --> 01:22:52.558

And of course,

01:22:52.738 --> 01:22:54.559

all the BYU Egyptologists

01:22:54.599 --> 01:22:56.379

were furious because he

01:22:56.519 --> 01:22:58.680

basically said that I

01:22:58.740 --> 01:23:00.401

shouldn't say Egyptologists,

01:23:00.441 --> 01:23:01.641

the apologists,

01:23:02.522 --> 01:23:03.802

the apologists who were

01:23:03.882 --> 01:23:05.363

claiming that there was

01:23:05.403 --> 01:23:07.523