UNFILTERED: Courageous Conversations about Menopause

Amy:

going. As we can always edit. So we don't have to be perfect from the beginning of the recording.

Daphna: Exactly, exactly.

Amy: Okay. Deep breath. Deep breath. Deep breath to tell the human we're not running from a tiger.

Daphna: Exactly.

Amy: So funny. Just having fun. It's you and me and still.

Daphna: Exactly. And yeah, and let's let's it's you and me. And we always have great conversations. So there's no reason that this should not be another great conversation. Yes.

Amy: Yes. All right, welcome. Thanks for joining myself and Daphna. Daphna, we said that we wanted to have some chats about real conversations that don't make it into the mainstream as often as you and I think that it should make it into the mainstream. So we're admitting that this is a bit of an experiment. We're going to chat about some topics that are important to us and that we wish were talked about more in our world, in our workplaces.

Daphna: Exactly, and I think that's the important part is that we might be reading a lot or there might be people posting some of their own videos about these topics, But how much are we bringing these topics up, whether it's in our social circles, in our families, or even at work? And that's really the emphasis that we want to have here. And I want to add that we want to have fun. We want to invite the audience to have fun with us. And we really just want to have a chat. And that's exciting for me.

Amy: Excellent. Me too. I'm glad we're doing this. Today, we are going to chat about menopause. Woo! What a topic.

Daphna: Woo!

Amy: Unfortunately, something that you and I have some experience with. Exactly. Daphna, start us off. Say, why did we choose this topic? Why are we talking about this today? Why is this important to you?

Daphna: Right. So Amy, I want to start with the fact that before we hit record, we were saying something about being two middle aged ladies and that caught both of us in like this moment. Take a breath in. Really? Is that who we are? And I guess that is who we are. And I guess it's part of our reality. And I am passionate about this topic because I had a really difficult, tough experience with menopause. I'm still in it. So still going through it and still navigating it and managing it the best way that I can. And I felt that I didn't have enough support. I think I probably I started younger and I'm probably a bit younger than my social group. So it wasn't anything that people were aware of. So there wasn't much being talked about it. Certainly not at work. Certainly not even within my family and for women who have their entire lives up to this point, whatever point we can even talk about what is this point, but we've always held it together and taken on a whole lot of responsibility and cared for others and made sure that everything was running smoothly and all of a sudden we hit this crisis or change. And we don't, I didn't know what to do with it. I did not know what was going on and I didn't have enough information. So that's my story a little bit in a nutshell. How about you, Amy? What makes it important for you? Yes.

Amy: Some similarities. I think that I started perimenopause menopause symptoms earlier than other women. And yeah, didn't find enough people to talk to it about. And yeah, unless so and I am still in it like you are still looking for answers and feel like I might be disliking the symptoms of not being able to find the word that I'm looking for in the moment. Not feeling like my brain is working at the 100% that I'm used to it working at. I'm finding those symptoms more challenging than, hey, I'm sweating at night. Although disrupted sleep is a serious thing. And I also am talking to leaders that are in our same demographic age bracket and they're talking about the effects on them, and how do I do this and how do I still feel confident as a leader, and can I talk about this with other people at work. So kind of working on those answers, those responses that I think many of us are having.

Daphna: Yes. So what I'm hearing, you're raising two really important topics that I really want to drill down into. The one is the symptoms and what are the range of symptoms and how they impact us. And the second is who is impacted. And for me, as you say, we work with leaders, women leaders who are going through this. And at the same time, we're also working with partners, partners of women who are going through menopause, who don't know what's happened, what's changed.

They know their partners are all of a sudden different, different requirements and dynamics in the relationships, and they don't know what to do with it. And I've had a lot of work with people from that angle, which I also think is important to realize. So when you say, I'm bringing up partners, but it could be families, it could be managers, it could extend to all the circles. So who's going to want to listen? No, it's not just for women who are going through menopause. It's for everybody who knows a woman. And whether it's your mother, your sister, your romantic partner, your business partner, your manager, your team member, it's relevant to everyone. And I think maybe that also touches on a point why it's so important for me to have this conversation with you today, Amy, is because it's relevant to everyone. Don't just make it a middle-aged woman problem.

Amy: Yes, that they should go and talk about in their own little bubble. Circles.

Daphna: Even though that's helpful, I'm not discounting that. I think we do need those circles to talk about it.

Amy: Yeah. I mean, that's why we have support groups for so many things in our world. right, whether you're going through grief or alcoholism in your family or aging parents, right, like whatever.

Daphna: We need support in whatever stage we're in and it's the, what do you call it, the circles around us that need to also be part of the conversation is really what I'm saying. Yeah, but maybe let's dive into the symptoms. Should we look at that? Because one thing that I find fascinating in this realm, and I think that that's something I discovered and certainly didn't know, is that almost everything is a symptom of perimenopause and menopause. Yeah, there's a wide range.

Amy: Yes.

Daphna: Exactly.

Amy: I think there's those things that, I mean, I started from a personal experience and certainly in perimenopause and maybe early menopause stages, I had things that disrupted my sleep.

Daphna: Oh yes. Oh gosh. I, yeah. Sleepless for weeks on end until I actually realized what was going on.

Amy: And of course, there are so many impacts of not getting good, regular deep sleep. And so we get those symptoms, right? Irritability, can't think straight, right? I mean, it creates so many physiological impacts.

Daphna: I think, yeah, I mean, for me, just talking about sleep is a huge one. Disturbed sleep, difficulty falling asleep, waking up early and difficulty falling back asleep. That disrupts, bad sleep disrupts everything, as you say. And I will say that I came from a place of, I used to be so proud of how I can sleep well. Nothing ever disturbed my sleep. You know, if I was worried, anxious, whatever was going on in my life, did not disrupt a good night's sleep. And it never took me a long time to fall asleep either. So this was a huge shakeup for me.

Amy: This is impact. This was the same, Daphna. So this was impacting things that we felt proud and confident about.

Daphna: Right? When everybody would complain about how they're not sleeping well or they can't sleep, not good sleepers. And I would go like, oh, that's not a problem for me. Jokes on me now.

Amy: I'm like, I can fall asleep. I can sleep in late. I can nap. I can do all the things.

Daphna: Yeah. So the knock on effects of that, I think is huge. And we can talk about that, but I actually do want to talk about some symptoms that I discovered. And certainly I was going through that that are actually directly related to menopause and perimenopause.

So, yes, we've heard about the hot flashes that I think a lot of us know about the night sweats, but things like itchy skin, joint pain, watering eyes. moods up and down, a level of anxiety that I have never felt before, and brain fog, forgetting things that you would normally easily remember. I don't know, I'm just speaking off the top of my head, but I know that there are even many more that I've even experienced that I don't know if you have anything to add to this list.

Amy: Yes, definitely the moods, the brain fog. And Daphna, I've had the experience in the last couple of years, I've had the privilege of leading some programs specifically for women. And it gave us an opportunity. And, you know, as many folks that were in that mid to upper level management, so it was women about our age, And we had some chats about menopause and yeah, what really is impacting women in the workplace from my own experience and hearing from these women is the brain fog.

Daphna: I can't think of the word. Clarity, clarity of thinking. All of a sudden you don't feel quite as sharp as you used to be. That for me was quite devastating. I'd have days where like, I know I can, I have more sharpness to my thinking or more clarity of thinking. And that's also something that I'm really proud of myself on in my work. And then some days it seems to have just disappeared.

Amy: I think it is really tough when part of our self image or part of our esteem or confidence in our work is about being quick thinking. Exactly. Exactly. Being able to think on our feet, being able to see the decisions that need to be made in the order about being able to get to the heart of the matter. What am I really seeing here? Which, of course, all leaders rely on that. Daphna, I know when I'm in front of a group, I'm relying on that. Right. Right.

Daphna: This is our zone of genius, actually. Hold on, Amy, we forgot some really important symptoms as well, which is the whole thing around weight gain. Oh my gosh. And all of a sudden all your eating patterns and what you thought you knew just doesn't work anymore. and you used to eat a certain amount, you'd know you'd lose a couple of kilos, but then that just doesn't work.

Amy: And that adds back to the irritability. Irritability, mood swings. What is this on my waistline that didn't used to be here? I know. And I like food, Daphna.

Daphna: Oh, sorry, go ahead. I like food. I don't want to come back. All of a sudden, to have to restrict yourself really, really even more than, I know for some people, you know, following a certain healthy eating plan or diet or whatever you want to call it is kind of the norm. But I know that even that changes when you hit the perimenopause and menopause, because all of a sudden, it just doesn't work anymore. Everything that's worked for you in the past doesn't and the weight piles on. And for me as well, I love food and I enjoy food. And now all of a sudden it's like, I have to watch, watch what I'm eating. And then I also wanted to relate it to energy levels, exhaustion, absolute exhaustion, tiredness. And exercise is now, for me at least, was so much harder than what it was before. I know you're a huge athlete, yeah? So I don't know if it impacted you, but for me, my running pace and distance dropped significantly.

Amy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, same, same, yeah. So I'm hoping for anyone listening to us, I mean, first of all, if you can relate to any of this, like that it's a feeling of not being alone validated and hopefully raising awareness for others about what is this experience like for those that are going through it. And we don't know when it's gonna be done. Yeah. How much do we have to gear ourselves up for? Where is this headed?

Daphna: I don't know. The uncertainty, I think you're touching on something really important here is that somehow things have changed. There are different things about us. We don't even recognize ourselves in some levels. And how long is this going to last? When am I going to just get back to my old self? Or maybe am I not? And that is something actually that is also another really good point to talk about, which is, for me, I think it's not about getting back to an old self. It's actually saying, who do I want to be in this new phase of life? And starting to look at it as, yes, there's a whole lot of physical things that are changing and have changed how we see ourselves, how we interact, how we show up in the world. But maybe that's an opportunity to redefine and redesign who we are and what we want from life and be able to back ourselves even more. Yes. Yes.

Amy: I get both inspired and a little bit overwhelmed listening to you say that, frankly, right? I get it. I get it. I do. I, you know, I, I believe what you're saying, right? That this is an opportunity to embrace and evolve and, um, Yeah, I mean, we could become even better, right? Or be able to offer something to ourselves and to those around us that we might not have previously been able to offer. I also get the overwhelmed because I'm like, okay, that sounds like some acceptance work.

Daphna: a lot of acceptance work. I don't know, Amy, I feel it's a lot of acceptance work. And it's a process. Yeah. And it is overwhelming. Thanks for bringing that up. And for owning that because it is and I'm sitting here saying this, but I know how hard I resisted and fought it. And it was like, I want my old self. I liked my old self. I like the energy levels that I had and all of that the body the moods, the whatever. I don't want anything new, but you're right, you're right. I think we have to highlight that very, very meaningfully because it's important.

Amy: Yeah, because we want to do it in an authentic way. That's what we wanted. Yeah, and I'm personally struggling with it right having known myself as someone who's fast thinking and able to think on my feet like when I'm not feeling like that in the in moments, you know, how do I still have power and presence in those moments. And maybe this is a nice segue into something else I know we want to talk about is how do we talk about it? And what are the benefits of doing so? Because I feel like in moments where I've been able to say something about what's going on with me in a way that feels comfortable and authentic, and a bit scary, you know, there's, um, I mean, I guess there's some discomfort, like, okay, I'm going to say something I've never said to a person before, but I still feel comfortable in my skin saying it about myself. And when we open up and share about something that's happening to us, you know, and share, oh, I can't, I can't think of the word that I'm trying to think of in the moment. This is a new phenomenon for me. This is something that's come on in menopause. I don't love it, but we've always, this is what I've said to some folks, but we've always said that communication is two-way responsibility. So you're going to help me think of this word I'm trying to think of in this moment.

Daphna: Nice. I like how you phrase it and I love the openness that you've adopted here, because I don't think that's easy at all. And I am thinking of, you know, how much safety is there to, you know, and I think maybe that's for everyone listening to think for a minute, how much safety is there for you in your environment to really open that up? Because if we can open it up and say, this is what I'm going through, we can get a lot of support. And at the same time, we might get some backlash as well. You know, I'm thinking to the old days of, you know, when when a woman is maybe a little bit more assertive, or loses her cool at work, the comments are immediately Oh, is it that time of the month or whatever? Yeah, emotional. And that's the last thing you want to do is open up about this difficult period in your life and not get the support. So yeah, I think, I think that's a tough one to navigate.

Amy: I really like where you went, Daphna, and inviting listeners to think about letting us all to think about how much safety do we have and where does more or less safety exist for you.

Daphna: Exactly.

Amy: Of course, there's a number of factors there. How well do you know each other? How long is the relationship? What kinds of topics or tasks have you tackled together in the past? And I would say like strategically, why not start where we feel like we have the strongest sense of safety?

Daphna: Absolutely.

Amy: Let's set ourselves up for success. Let's do everything that we can to make sure like, okay, I'm gonna breach this topic. with someone for the first time, this is where I think I will have the safest landing.

Daphna: I think that's super valuable advice, Amy. And if I just reflect on my own experience where I didn't share for a long time, as I said, I felt that my social circle wasn't really going through it. So I felt very alone. And I felt like I, something was wrong with me and I didn't know who to share it with and how to share it because I was continuing with my regular pattern of just having everything together, always being together, always being on top of it, always being the one who's looking after everybody else's needs. And I was just in that pattern. So I remember starting to share with a couple of girlfriends and even they, you know, some were. very empathetic. Yes. But I do feel it's a topic that if you haven't gone through it, it's really difficult to understand the extent of it. And there's also from my experience, there was even an element of denial or, you know, I'm not gonna have it, you clearly had it so bad.

I'm not gonna have it that way. Because I work out and I eat healthily. And I'm this and I'm that and I do yoga, whatever it is, I felt a lot of that from my environment. And even my husband who is very caring and supportive. I only let him in a little bit, you know, he knew what I was, but he didn't know the extent to how much I was really struggling. And when I started talking about it more and more, it actually became a lot more what's the word, like validating for me and I didn't feel so alone and it was important, really important for me to be able to open up to that experience. So even with my children, I remember that was quite a big moment for me when I was actually able to share with my children that this is what I'm going through and it's been really hard for me. And some of those mood swings that you've seen, it really is part of what I'm going through.

Amy: Yeah, so. Same, same. I just realized something when you were talking, Daphna, about the benefit of us speaking out loud about our experience. Of course, the idea of, you know, when we speak to others and someone's able to say, Same. I get it. Like that feeling of not being alone. But when you were talking about your experience, even if others aren't validating it for us, we're validating it for us. Exactly. You're right. Because what you just spoke to is that the more you said it, the more you were like, yeah.

Daphna: This is my experience. This is what I'm going through. This is what's happening for me right now. And it's not about what is the response I'm getting, but rather that I am able to now own this and accept it. You spoke about the journey of acceptance. I think that until I was able to speak about it, I was very much in resistance and fighting it and really wanting it all to just go away and go back to normal. And when I was able to start talking about it, regardless of what the response was, it was me validating myself, you know, and the experience that I'm going through.

Amy: Well, because otherwise it can feel like something if we're not talking about it, it can start to feel like something that we're hiding. and has a source of shame with it. And that's not what we want. This is part of a beautiful process that female bodies are able to create, right? It's all set up so that we can Yeah, bring life into the world, if that is one's desire. So maybe one's relationship with menopause also depends upon whether they have been a childbearing person.

Daphna: Now, that is interesting. That is interesting. An invitation to listeners to please share your experience if it's been different, you know, in relationship to how you wanted to approach the whole topic of parenting. So I think that is an interesting link. And I think for me as we're talking, I'm just thinking we've spoken about a lot of things and I'm certainly feeling a lot of validation and support. And I hope that people who are listening are feeling that as well. And like just taking a breath and really understanding that our experience is our experience.

And the question is, how do we want to be in that experience and what do we need? Really, what do you need in order to get through it in the best possible way to come out on the side, if there is another side I don't even know, but to get through. with um I don't know I don't know what the word I'm looking maybe you can help me but I'm looking for something like to get through it without thinking like something's wrong with you or something needs to be fixed.

Amy: Yes yeah yeah I think that is well said. And I actually really like where this conversation has gone. It's been pretty self-focused, right? Like what do we need? What's validating? What is supportive for ourselves? Often my mind goes to leadership, right? What would be the advantage and what would be the benefits of a leader talking about this in the workplace? And I think that there are many, right? When we open up about whatever's going on for us, That opens the door for other people to bring up what's going on for them, whether it's aging or an injury or bad news or whatever it is that they are dealing with. When we open up, that allows other people to do the same. But I really like. It's a tough time.

Daphna: Start with what you need. I love that. And I love where you've taken it to that place of leadership, which is really important as well. It's like, okay, if I can open up about what I'm going through, then other people are going to feel like they can open up as well. And I want to link it to the question of, you know, if you're a leader, ask yourself how open do you think your people are to bringing up such a topic? If you have got people in your team or colleagues or people at work, women that are in that life stage, do they feel comfortable to come and talk to you about it? And with that, I want to add the caveat that not everybody, not every woman goes through it in the same way. Some people experience it much more lightly. I think the statistics that I saw is that 25% of women have no symptoms whatsoever. So that's interesting. Actually, my sister is a menopause specialist. So she told me that. Why could I not be in that 25%? I want to be in that, but there are the 25% of women who feel absolutely like nothing has changed. But at the same time, there are 75% of women who are going to experience it to a lesser or greater degree. So do you create an environment where women can come and open up to you about this particular topic? And I don't know that our workplace has got to that point yet.

Amy: Yeah, that is I think that's a great question. I think it's a challenging question for most leaders, and I know that if I'm going to open up in a work setting, I need to lean into that idea that I'm creating a space for others to open up right and leaders need to go first. Because we might feel like, oh, I don't want to share my stuff or like young people or men are not going to want to hear about this. But if we can, you know, find that comfortable way to open the door. I was struggling with finding my word there earlier.

Daphna: Or I'm not thinking so clearly today, or I'm exhausted, I've had such a bad night's sleep. And yeah, just to be able to have empathy for that and say, okay, tomorrow is another day, you know, it doesn't, it's not forever. And it doesn't mean that something's wrong. Tomorrow is another day.

Amy: And that first time we step into the pool, if we act like it's okay to talk about menopause, then those around us might get the message that it's okay to talk about X, Y, Z things spinning in their head.

Daphna: And exactly. And it's not like, okay, if you talk about menopause, I'll talk about menopause. It's actually, you know, as a leader, if you're not going through menopause, bring something else that you're struggling with. Talk about that, you know? But I know that's a very difficult, as we talk about and we say, what is the ideal? That's a very difficult space for people to just jump into. So what would maybe dipping your toe look like?

Amy: Ooh. Yeah. I mean, I really liked what you just said, Daphna. Listen, team, I might not be on the top of my game today. I've had a bad night's sleep. I know we all have things that can impact our sleep. For me, some menopause symptoms last night, temperature was off. But you know, whatever's real for folks, right? I know an opening for me has been, oh, I couldn't think of the word that I wanted to in the moment. This is an unfortunate symptom of menopause. And then I go into my joke about the two-way communication.

Daphna: Yeah, I love that. And the truth is that that is something people can really relate to because it can be menopause. It can be other things as well. So yeah, we can all relate to not being able to come up with a word when we wanted. So I love that. That's a great example. Yeah.

Amy: Devna, do we leave the listeners with the challenge there? Yes. How do you authentically dip your toe into the pool and talk about a non-mainstream conversation or something real that's going on for you that might open up the door for others to share or not? but it's still validating and normalizing.

Daphna: Exactly. I think that is a great challenge and a great invitation to do it in the way that feels safe for you. As you said earlier, Amy, find the person, start with the person that feels the safest. start with your most EQ zero person that you know, go to someone that's maybe you haven't shared with before, but that still feel safe and supportive and someone that you could open up to. And I think that's a great challenge for our listeners. Excellent, Daphna. So why don't we wrap up our chat here.

Amy: Thank you for joining us for this chat and this experiment.

Daphna: Yeah, Amy, I've had fun. I don't know how you felt, but it was a great conversation and very connecting for us. So I would love to, since this was an experiment, If anybody out there has enjoyed God Value, what did it mean for them, those conversations, please do share with us. And we would like to do more of these on more topics that are perhaps not so mainstream at work or in our social circles. And yeah, keep tuned. Exactly. Thank you, Daphna. Thank you for list