UNFILTERED: Courageous Conversations about... Imposter Syndrome

Welcome to our podcast series Unfiltered. This

is where we have Corageous Conversations about topics that

are not always discussed in the mainstream or in the workplace.

Here we strip away the polished surface and

dive into the raw, messy and deeply human topics that we

don't think it talked about often enough.

We are your unfiltered hosts. I'm Amy from

the Courage of a Leader podcast,

and I'm Daphna from Leadership Live podcast

with two coaches from two sides of the world who believe that

real growth happens in the uncomfortable, unspoken moments from

Workplace trauma to dealing with major life changes

and taboo topics like grief, imposter syndrome and menopause,

this is the space where nothing is off limits.

So if you're ready for honest, bold and

sometimes messy conversations, let's get into it. So welcome to

unfiltered, courageous conversations about imposter

syndrome. Today, we're diving into a topic that so many of us

experience, but maybe sometimes find it hard to admit imposter

syndrome. It's that nagging feeling that you don't belong,

that you're a fraud, that any moment now, someone will realize

you have no idea what you're doing. Yes,

yes. Daphna, we both felt it, and I know that we are

not alone. We both hear it from the leaders that we work with,

and research shows that up to 70% of people experience

imposter syndrome at some point in their lives. So today, we

want to have an unfiltered conversation and unpack what is

it really? Why does it happen, and how can we move through it?

How can we deal with it when it shows up?

Right? Oh, I'm excited about this one. Yeah, I

know you've done some research on what is imposter

syndrome, so why don't you kick us off?

Okay, cool. I know that I did do a bit of

reading, and I wanted to know where it started. And apparently

this phrase and term was coined by two psychologists in 1978

Would you believe that? Because I thought it was a much more

recent development or concept, then, you know, going back as

far as that, and in fact, it was based on research done with high

achieving women that what has been found since then is that it

actually applies to gender, different genders, ethnic

backgrounds, whatever it is, it applies to everyone, and About

70% of people experience it. So I think that's, yeah, something

that, as you said, we both felt we know we've seen in others, in

the work that we do. And yeah, what is your take on it? Yeah, I

definitely think it is a human condition. And I

would venture to guess that it's been around forever, and we

exactly named it in 1978 and when you said that, that you

know that description of it's formal initiation, I just

thought, Gosh, it probably has a lot to do with how our brains

work, how our brains are designed to help us survive, and

has that mechanism to identify threats, and we feel that

threat, we feel that threat, and do we know how to deal with it?

Do we know how to deal with it? We're in a new situation. Maybe

we've done this kind of work before, but not at this level,

or not with these people, or not in this particular set of

circumstances. So I think it has a lot to do with the natural

survival mechanism of our brain telling us we better be equipped

for this situation in front of

us exactly. I think it goes right down to

survival. And in fact, the way that I often like to look at it

is actually, you know, as I said, I thought it was a more

recent thing, but you're right, it's been around forever,

because for me, it really is about self doubt. It's a label

that we've given to self doubt, which is, whenever we feel we're

on shaky ground. And then, you know, in this particular

instance around work, we've called it imposter syndrome, we

feel like we're a fraud. We feel like we haven't done the

distance. You know completely, you know, believe in ourselves,

and all those little doubts creep out, and those doubts are

linked to survival. It's the fight or flight response that we

have that are that is wired into our physiology, in our brain.

Yes, yes. I think that's a great way to define it,

Daphna self doubt, right? And that that self doubt mounting in

such a way where somebody sees it and might actually say to a

coach or someone else I know you and I have heard it from the

leaders that we work with, I've got. Imposter syndrome, right?

So I'm glad that more people are able to admit

Yeah. And I think there's something powerful

about being able to name it as well, to call it imposter

syndrome, I think naming something makes it easier to

then deal with it, manage it, talk about it, not feel so alone

in the experience. And I actually think it's a powerful

way to begin the process of what I do with this thing that makes

me feel like a fraud.

Yes, yes. So I think that's probably step one in our

how do we deal with

this? We haven't even got there yet, but

yeah, yeah,

is to name it. But let's share some more examples

of how this can how this can show up.

So I actually that's a really great segue,

because I did do a little bit of reading. Also on the parity,

there are different types of imposter syndrome. Yeah, I think

the overall umbrella is the I feel like, abroad, I'm going to

be found out I'm not good enough, and all that voice in

our head that speaks to us, but there's a few reasons that can

lead to it. Okay? So we'll look at five. And the first one is

the perfectionist. It's like, if it's not perfect, then I'm a

failure. Yeah. The second is the expert. I need to know

everything and be absolutely sure of everything before I can

speak up, or before I can give my contribution the soloist,

which is, if I ask for help, then they'll know I don't

belong. They'll know I don't know. So that's the scare, you

know, the scared part of actually reaching out and

saying, I need some more help, support, whatever it is, and

then the natural genius, if I struggle, it means I'm not truly

talented, which is also interesting, interesting. And

then the superhero, I have to work harder than everyone else

to prove that I'm worthy so

and I can save the day. Well, I want to repeat

those back and invite our listeners, Daphna, to identify

for themselves, which ones are most likely to to rise up and

cause imposter syndrome for them, reflectionist, expert,

soloist, natural genius and superhero, right? Yeah,

those are powerful ways to look at it,

because to me, it speaks to the expectations, perhaps societal

expectations, of how we need to be or how we need to show up. We

need to know everything. It needs to be perfect. We can't

ask for help. Surely we should know this without, you know,

needing to learn more, and surely I can have all the

answers and come and save the day if I'm if I know what I'm

doing. So to me, it really speaks to the pressure and

societal expectations.

Yes, we've got the societal expectations, and then

we've got the marketplace variables. There's quite a lot

of competition right now. There's lean organizations. I

know so many organizations that are really moving at a fast pace

right now to try to take advantage of an opportunity or

to create or sustain their competitive advantage or grow to

a certain size so that they can be purchased or merge, or

whatever it is, so that is creating a need to move quickly,

right inside of having high expectations for perfectionism,

having everything 100% thought of, taken care of. And we

probably really need to be moving forward with the 8020

rule. So there's like some competing pressures there that

make it impossible for employees in the workplace,

exactly. And I'm going to add another layer

to that, and I think that it relates to women and minorities.

Yeah, I think that imposter syndrome tends to show up more

quickly with with women and minorities, because although I

have even working in my practice, which is pretty much

equal men and women, sometimes more men. I've seen this come up

with men as well, for sure. But for women, we almost start and

and other minorities, we start on the back foot, almost. We

start almost with this experience of, do I have what it

takes? Am I good enough that it kind of puts us into that self

doubt and imposter syndrome even more, even more quickly or even

more,

yeah, yeah, that's a good point. I do hear it

slightly more from women, from minorities than other groups.

We're starting on that back foot. We we might not see the

role. Models that look like us, right? Which does create a do I?

Do I belong here? Can I handle this kind of question?

Yeah, for sure, for sure. But I want to throw in

something else, because this is has also always been my approach

with imposter syndrome, and maybe, like, a bit of a positive

spin. Okay, yes. And that is that, for me, if you've hit

imposter syndrome, if you're starting to feel like a fraud or

like maybe you're going to be found out and you don't have

what it takes, maybe that's an indicator that you've hit the

next level, that you are ready for the next level expectations

are now higher. You've been given the promotion. You are

taking on something bigger, and that doubt creeps up, which is

really an indicator of, hey, something big is on the other

side. Yes, stretching you, challenging you and encouraging

you to go even further.

Yes, I like this. Jaffna, there's a part of you

that has said, Yes, I'm ready for this next stretch. Me, I'm

ready for this next challenge. And so there's that part of you

that rears up and goes, Wait. Are you sure we have to survive

this? This is your brain talking. But I love that framing

of it, right? That means that you're stretching, you're

growing, you are about to learn a whole

bunch of stuff about yourself and about your

circumstances. Yeah,

and that could be scary. I mean, as coaches, we

know that we want to encourage and support people to dream big

and achieve big goals, and whenever they do? It always does

come with a little bit of fear. Yes, because we say, if the goal

is big enough, you are going to be fearful about it, you know,

you are going to get a little scared. It should scare you a

little bit. You know, in a good way,

we both talk about courage, right? That doesn't

mean the lack of fear. That means moving forward and taking

on the challenge in spite of the fear, and I would add something

else to the staff now that when doubts creep up, it also shows

that we care. We care about doing a good job. We care about

doing right by our teams and the business and our clients, or

whatever is at stake in the situation,

that it's important, that it's important

enough to us. I love that angle as well. We really do care. I

think sometimes I'm gonna what come what's coming up for me now

is that we also probably care about what people think and what

how people see us, and that is also part of it, and sometimes

we want to let that go a little bit. Just take the risk. Take

this step. Don't worry if you think you're gonna sound stupid

or silly, or whatever it is, but that creeps in as well.

No abs, no, absolutely. Let's, let's be real

about this, right? We care about how we are going to come across.

And I have to tell you, another human phenomenon in this is that

comparison Gremlin and Daphne. We do a very nasty thing to

ourselves when we're comparing ourselves to others, right? We

will look at somebody else's business development or

marketing, know how, and we pick the best person we know that is

most expert in business development, and then I compare

my business development self to that person. And then I pick the

person that's best in whatever other trait and compare myself

to right we compare the best out there to ourselves. We are not

fair to ourselves. We are

definitely not fair to ourselves. And again,

I'm going to add a layer to that, because what we are

comparing is what we're seeing on the outside right. We are

seeing what's on the outside right, that person's output is.

We have no idea what went into getting that output and what the

other person's thinking is, but we're comparing their outside,

what we can see to our inside, yes, our feelings of self doubt

and uncertainty and not knowing what we're doing and not knowing

what the what the next step is, and feeling scared. We comparing

our inner feelings to the person's outside. Look, you

know, success

or Instagram after the whole journey,

right, right? So that's an another unfair

thing we do to ourselves, and I think that that all adds to that

feeling of imposter syndrome. And I think it's real. It's very

real, you know. And I think something about, I want to say

here, when you've hit that space, maybe give yourself a pat

on the back and say maybe you've earned it. I don't know. How

does that sound.

Yeah, no, I love that, right? You're taking

yourself to another level. You're stretching yourself,

you're setting yourself up for development and. Is but, you

know, can be breakdowns along the way, but it sets us up for a

break through.

Yeah, and that it's completely normal. I think

you said it earlier. It's part of the human experience. We

don't grow without feeling a little bit uncertain, without

feeling a little bit of the fear of, what if it doesn't work out?

Or what will people think we don't grow without that. So to

also give it its right place, you know, in in the whole frame

and the whole picture,

yes, yes. And why we're talking about it today,

Daphna, right? Because we want it to be more of a mainstream,

normalized conversation that this is a human phenomenon. It

happens in our journey of growth. Yeah, we're if, if we're

taking on new challenges, if we're evolving, then there are

going to be times that imposter syndrome, right? Yeah, it comes

up for us.

And I think the more we try to hide it and

pretend that it's not there, the more of a disservice we're doing

to ourselves, and the more it even comes up, even more, I

think, yeah, the more we try to hide it, the more it's kind of

in that dark corner of our brain wanting to get some attention

and get some comfort or safety, so it will be even more present

with us in our inner conversation.

Yeah, so I think we're coming back to naming it,

recognizing it, and when we name it, it can pull some of the

power away from it exactly. It's not secretly running the show in

the background without being checked by us right to be able

to say, Oh, you're here. You're exactly your thing.

I see you, I see you, and I You're here, and that means I

care, and that exactly I'm taking on something, something

new, something bigger.

And I wonder if it's worth just thinking of a

few examples of maybe people that we've worked with, or even

from our own lives, or if we know of some celebrity examples.

But what came up for me is this client that I work with, and she

is fabulous at what she does. She works at a great company.

She's got a senior position. She's constantly getting

feedback that she's appreciated and she's good at it. And yet,

in every session where she told me that she was called in by her

manager to have a conversation, she always fears that this is

going to be the conversation where she eventually gets fired,

or where she eventually gets found out that she's really not

that good, or she really doesn't know what she's doing, which is

contrary to all the evidence. Yeah, that was really thinking

about her, because she comes and says, You won't believe my

manager called me to have a conversation, and immediately my

heart started beating fast, and I thought for sure, this is the

day that I'm going to get found out. And I always just smile,

because I know that's not where it's going. You know,

where do you think that comes from? Daphna. I mean,

do you I think, I think it goes back to I mean, sometimes we

create those emotional triggers for ourselves. Something

happened in our background. We were called in, and it was a

time we were in trouble. I mean, it could go back to the

principal's office, I don't know, or earlier in our career,

right? And now our brain says, Oh, you got in trouble that one

time,

right? And here it is again memory, you know,

and you're actually reminding me with that particular client that

I'm thinking of, there was, you know, first job ever. She was

pulled out of the blue, and she was fired on the spot, and that

has stayed with her forever, forever, and that keeps it's the

recycled memory that keeps cropping up with that trigger of

managers saying, I want to speak to you because she was also, she

was ambushed in those it was done really horribly and very

young. So, yeah, yeah,

it's so it can be looking at like, what are those

triggers for me? And what is this week, or one piece, or

whatever, it could be valid evidence from the past, right?

And we let that outweigh all the evidence

progress, contrary,

yes, because when you brought up about examples, and

that's, that's, that's a great one, right? Where we would all

look at this individual and be like, Why? Why do you have

imposter syndrome? I've recently worked with a fairly newly

promoted young lady, and she got promoted above some of her

peers, and now there's some people on her team that are

older than her, have more years of experience. And it's, it's

very. Easy for her to look at that set of circumstances and

say, Why me? How can I be the leader of this group? And having

some folks on the team question that, right? Because they think

that they should have been the one that was promoted to the

leader. So she's getting some feedback, right? That could, she

could use that as evidence that I shouldn't be here. And we've

had to have a number of conversations around, why are

so, why are you here, right? What did your leadership? Yeah,

see in you, why are you the one that's leading? What value do

you bring, even if you don't know person A's job inside and

out, what value do you bring?

Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I'm wondering, does

she feel like she needs to constantly prove her case? Yeah,

yeah, because it throws you into that kind of thinking, because

everybody is watching you now. Your team is also, as you said,

asking those same questions. So you can throw yourself into this

loop of, I need to prove myself all the time, because I'm not

sure that I'm really good enough,

right? And that is an unrealistic pressure, right?

Because, yeah, she's starting to feel like, every time I interact

with the team member, every time I bring the team together,

right? I better show some brilliance or some over the top

value to to why it's me here, and then, like, sometimes that's

not appropriate for every for every interaction. And how do we

ground ourselves in? Here's the value that I bring with my

leadership, with my skills. And so I think that's that is

definitely been some of the how with this individual, who are

you? What are you grounded in? What do you stand for? What are

you bringing to the team and the team's work, you know? And how

do you promote them, advocate the work of the team, up and out

in the organization, and just be really grounded in that value,

right? And know that you're providing that right? And then

you can find your moments, I call them PR, right like then

you can't find your moments for PR to let the team know, hey, we

got this question came that came in, and I was able to let them

know about the the unique and distinct value that our team

provides,

right, right, exactly. I love that. I love how

you frame that, because you've really gone into the different

levels. Where do you bring value? How do you promote your

team? How do you promote yourself? I think that PR piece

is really important is to also be able to talk about your

accomplishments together with the team's accomplishments, but

remind yourself and others that you have value, and what is your

specific value, and how do you make sure that it's known? I

think that is definitely something that's worth working

on. I think it's a journey. I think it's something that also

comes in waves. So it's practicing your own awareness

around it and being able to talk about it, and being able to find

ways to remind yourself of your value, you know, of what you are

proud of, what you've been successful in, what value you

bring, what's your unique value, what makes you special, what

makes you good at what you do? And keep reminding yourself

about that, I think, yeah, working with a coach you can

help to remind you is very, very helpful. But even for yourself,

make a list of the things that you've done your successes over

the I say to my clients, make a list of depends on the client.

But I go at least 50, at least 50 things that you're proud of

over the last year. And you've got to look for the small things

and the big things and remind yourself that you actually have

a lot to bring a lot of value.

Yes, I want to piggyback on the last two things

that you said, Daphna, you said, remind remind yourself of your

value, but remind yourself of what makes you special, what's

that unique value? Cuz I think sometimes we can get into the

phonetic energy of trying to provide different kinds of value

in all the different kinds of situations, I think leaders that

are really grounded in. Here's my zone of genius, right? Here's

the unique thing that I provide, and not trying to provide 27

different things, right at all times. But what's like? The one

to three things that you always are bringing because it's

natural to you, it's ingrained in you, and you've been building

those muscles throughout your lifetime. Because I think that

imposter syndrome can can you. Uh, get stronger if we're trying

to do different things in different situations. So what's

that special value? And then get your list of mounting evidence I

have. I have, uh, that you bring that value. I have a folder in

my email. I'm going to admit. Daphna, I call it the feel good

folder. And when I get some kudos, or there's some strong

results or something shows up in a written format, right? I take

that and I put that in the feel good folder. I

love that. Amy, I think everybody should have a

feel good folder. It's fantastic.

I should also probably visit it more often.

But what a beautiful idea, because I think

that we are so quick to overlook or discard or get through

quickly when we receive a compliment or when our value has

been highlighted, we, you know, we give ourselves a pat on the

back. We celebrate it, but then we move on to the next thing

very quickly. And it's so important to pause for a moment.

I love it. Put it in the feel good folder so that you can

revisit it. You know, remind yourself. Excellent, excellent

suggestion there. Really, really good.

So if I were to recap some of our how tos, acknowledge

it, when imposter syndrome creeps up, starts to show itself

in some way, acknowledge it. Name it. Normalize. Talk

about it. Talk about it. Share, share with

others how you're feeling. Don't pretend that everything's okay

and you're feeling like on you're on top of the world,

because then you're increasing that gap. So yeah, the talk

about it,

and that's so useful to you to know that you're not

alone. And that's so useful to your team, to those around you,

right, for them to feel like they're not alone, to support

them in not having imposter syndrome exactly running that

way, you're actually role modeling as well.

That you're normalizing your role modeling. You're saying,

okay, we can talk about it. I love that. Yeah, collecting the

evidence, doing our personal PR exercise,

yep, yep, and grounding yourself in your value

and knowing that you bring that

and the feel good folder, yeah. And there was

something that we haven't discussed that that actually

would like to just bring in kind of on the on the tip of the

fork, so to speak. But okay, there's something about

understanding that it is really just in our thinking that when

we think we have imposter syndrome, we really are, it's us

we are responding to our force. We are experiencing, yeah, our

thinking, rather than experiencing the actual reality

of the situation. There is not real factual circumstance that

will say you're an imposter unless, of course, we're talking

about somebody like somebody that forged a university

certificate and claims to have a degree when they don't have a

degree. Okay? But in general, the imposter syndrome you're

talking about is self doubt. It's in our heads and it's our

response to our thinking. And if we can just, you know, even look

at it, play with it a little bit, and say, that's just a

thought, yeah. And I heard something recently that thought

was so good, and that, instead of saying I have imposter

syndrome, yes, say I think I have imposter syndrome, or I'm

having the thought that I have imposter syndrome, yes. And then

you're actually creating a little bit of distance, because

you're not saying this is a fact, right? I am having that

thought. It's coming up in my thinking, thinking

exactly, is it a and then, even though, is it a

true reflection of reality? Yes, not necessarily,

because when you create that bit of distance,

then you can look at it more objectively, right? The

questions that you were just saying. Daphna, yeah, is this

true? What is it? Warren, what? What do I want to do about it?

Sometimes these thoughts and feelings come up as as

information, right? That there's something in our being is

wanting us to do something about it, and it might just be that

regrounding exactly the value bring, yeah,

so recognizing it as a thought, and then

questioning, what is this thought here to do? Ah, I need

to get grounded. I need to understand I'm going to the next

level, or maybe at some times, our saboteurs at play, saying,

Be careful. Be careful. So we want to each one would have a

different response, right? Each one would have a different

strategy to deal with it. Yeah. So, so if you really were.

If you're out there experiencing imposter syndrome,

please know you are not alone. You are in very good company.

Yes, and reach out. Talk about it, make it part

of the conversation. And yes, there's work to be done. And

yeah, let's do the work.

Yeah. Let us know your thoughts, your feelings,

your reactions to this episode. Reach out to either one of us or

put some notes in the comments below,

yes, and if it resonated with with you, if this

topic resonates with you, please do share it and pass it on to

others as well.

All right. Thank you for listening to unfiltered,

courageous conversations about imposter

syndrome. That's a wrap on this episode of unfiltered, where we

have courageous conversations about topics that are not often

discussed in depth. We hope this conversation sparked something

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