182: Culture, Retention, and Smarter Hiring with Fixed Fee Legal Recruiter Erin Andersen

What are some of the principles of writing a great job description?

I like to first think about it as basically flipping the typical job description. So if you read one out there, it's always we need this, and from the firm's perspective, almost like if you were reading an essay and it was II. And I like to rather say, here's what we can offer you right up front. So most small law firms have a differentiating factor. Sometimes it takes me about an hour to get it out of them, but I know there's something, and we have to find what that is so that we can advertise it up top. So there's this summary that I always include that's about the firm, but then also something a little bit lighter than a bullet point, that's saying this is actually who's a good fit, not that they, of course, they need to have a JD, but it's someone with an entrepreneurial mind, because maybe there's a partnership track and making that very clear. And then from there, we can say, here's what responsibilities are, and here's the requirements of the role. I also list benefits and perks upfront versus at the end as well, because every job description typically looks the same where all of this is at the bottom, so we need to sell it up front.

Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, whatever time this podcast finds you, welcome to the 10 golden rules of internet marketing for law firms podcast. Great guest. Today, you're going to meet Erin Andersen in about 30 seconds. I always start with a short commercial, and today I want to talk about annual planning. Do you have an annual plan? If not, we work with all of our clients, and we do an annual planning session, and we have a unique approach to this, where we go through all your numbers, and everybody gets on the same page with how the business is performing. And then we do a brainstorming that's comprised of strengths, weaknesses, trends and projects, and we come up with all the projects that are going to emphasize the firm's strengths, compensate for weaknesses, or fix an area of weakness and capitalize on trends, like, everybody's working from home, or people are getting hit by Ubers, people are getting divorced because of the holidays, or whatever the trend is in your practice area, and we develop a plan to take care of those projects. Like, who's going to take the lead on those projects? We develop milestones and timelines, SMART goals for those projects, and we facilitate this for you. So if this is something that you'd be interested in, get in touch with me at 10 Golden rules.com or Jay Berkowitz on LinkedIn, or any of the social medias, and we'll talk about how we could help facilitate an annual planning session for your firm. And with that, Erin Andersen, welcome to the 10 golden rules podcast. Thanks for having me here today. And Erin and I have become friends through a number of things. We were introduced through our networking group that we have that's private invite only group that's only for people who work exclusively with lawyers. And Erin is a recommended rock star, and she is absolutely awesome. Her company is called your brand networker, and she's a highly regarded recruiter for law firms. And

I've recommended to her to at least a half dozen clients, because one thing is a little different is she doesn't take a huge percentage of the person. She does fixed rate recruiting. She's also does career transition, but I don't want to steal her thunder. Erin welcome to 10 golden rules. Yeah. Thank you. So tell us a little bit about your journey and how you got to where you are today.

Sure, absolutely. So prior to being in the legal industry, I was in the banking industry. I went to business school and thought that is the career that I wanted to pursue at the time. And still now I really do enjoy numbers and accounting, so I thought that was the path that I was going to go down. And honestly, at that point, I'm a really loyal person, so never thought that I'd be leaving companies within two years as the person that now, you know, I get a lot of questions around that, which we can get to later, but I was in banking for about three in finance for about three years, and I was in a bad culture at one point, and I just started realizing that I also am somebody that really enjoys to be on the relationship side, to be client facing, To be speaking to people, and I was in a very independent job where I mostly worked by myself. And after leaving a few different companies, I decided, right in the middle of covid, to pursue what I do now. So I started off more in the career transition side, and then I moved into the workplace culture LinkedIn side, which is then how I kind of pivoted a little bit more into the legal space. Initially, I found that with law firms, the LinkedIn marketing piece was definitely advantageous to them, but that got me in the legal rooms, and I was hearing how it was a constant struggle for. Law firm to be able to scale if they were paying that 20 to 30% recruiter fee, so they'd hire their office manager, and then they weren't able to be able to afford their associate, for example. And then when it came to strategy planning, like you were speaking about at the end of the year, they didn't even know how they were possibly going to budget, not just for the recruiter fee, but also salary and how many hires they could plan for the next year because of that fee that they were going to pay. And then, of course, I did my research, and I also realized that there was really nobody doing this in the legal field

yet. And I got started, and I've had my company for about five and a half years at this point, full time. Congratulations.

That's awesome. Thank you. So what's the first thing people should know about the job market these days? And you do attorneys, and you do things like the office manager, right?

Yeah. So I pretty much cover all positions in a law firm, from support staff, so anywhere from your receptionist, you're paralegal, your legal assistant office manager, then to specialists, which I like to refer to as like a marketing director and a PI firm, a controller. Is a recent request. I received those types of roles, and then also associates, so usually Junior and mid level, I don't cover partners. At the moment, it's something that I may eventually begin to cover that's really my focus at the moment.

Okay, great. Well, we have someone who covers partners in our joint networking group. So yes, we can always refer those folks. I think that's actually who introduced us, yes. And some of the principles of your business is you save a lot of money, obviously, on a hire, because it's a fixed fee. It's not 20 30% and that could be huge if you're hiring an attorney and you save a lot of time. So what are some of the things you do to save a firm time in the hiring process?

Yeah, great question. Typically, most recruiters will just basically send resumes over. They've probably maybe reviewed them, looked at them for five seconds. It's usually an industry standard, and then just and then just sent it to a law firm. I like to think of a recruiter as having, like, a big whiteboard and just throwing every single firm up there that contacts them, where I'm extremely careful with who I choose to hire for. And from a time perspective, it's a retained search, which means it's very dedicated to that client, which is why it's a faster turnaround in most cases versus a regular recruiter. So when I am beginning to hire for a firm, I also rewrite their job description. So usually it's not the way it should be, to market standard, but also to really attract the right candidate and promote their firm in a way that separates them from the other PI firm down the street. That's always my goal. The second thing is, I conduct first round interviews. So often, when recruiters are sending a resume somebody's way, the firm has to conduct the first round interview. And you'd be surprised how many people don't show up to an interview. It gets rescheduled.

I wouldn't be surprised at all. Right. In fact, I find it completely fascinating that people apply for a job and don't show up. I give them four or five criteria, yeah, and a Calendly link, and they book the calendar, they get a reminder from the software, and they don't show up on the Zoom, or they show up and they're in their car, or they're late, right? You better have a phenomenal resume if you're a minute late.

100% Yeah, and that's time consuming. So if an attorney was had trial that day and was trying to squeeze this in, or maybe they do show up on time, but it's also just not a right fit. So I further vet to make sure that whoever I'm sending to that law firm is a great potential fit for who we're going to hire in that stage, before the first round interview, when I'm sending them their resume, I also send an outline. So firms are busy. If I'm sending over 10 candidates, I have an outline of every single candidate so they can just breeze through it really quickly and tell me who their top three to five are. And then I conduct that first round. I also manage the scheduling coordination moving forward. So if I say this candidate's awesome. I think you should interview them, second, third, fourth, however many interviews there are. I manage all of the scheduling of that, and then I also conduct reference checks so that they don't have to go ahead and take the time to do that that's really time consuming, sometimes, not actually getting the reference, but finding other attorneys who you know, especially this time of year, writes the holidays, and they're in trial, and so being able to get a time on the calendar where they can speak, even if just for five minutes, and then I will either write the offer letter or advise on it. If a firm is I'd say five plus, then usually I don't write it because I suggest that they follow a consistent process that they've been following for their employees, but I'll still consult on it, but otherwise I would write that offer letter, and then I have my guarantee as well.

And here's some behind the scenes information. By the way, is a lot of times when I do these podcasts, I'm going to ask questions that I want to know the answers to. And one of the best things about doing a podcast, if you've been thinking of doing a podcast. Asked is you're going to interview super smart people and get smarter, and it's great. So here's some questions I have from what you just explained. What are some of the principles of writing a great job description?

I like to first think about it as basically flipping the typical job description. So if you read one out there, it's always we need this. And from the firm's perspective, almost like if you were reading an essay and it was II, and I like to rather say, here's what we can offer you right up front. So most small law firms have a differentiating factor. Sometimes it takes me about an hour to get it out of them, but I know there's something, and we have to find what that is so that we can advertise it up top. So there's this summary that I always include that's about the firm, but then also something a little bit lighter than a bullet point, that's saying this is actually who's a good fit, not that they, of course, they need to have a JD, but it's someone with an entrepreneurial mind, because maybe there's a partnership track and making that very clear. And then from there, we can say, here's what responsibilities are and here's the requirements of the role. I also list benefits and perks upfront versus at the end as well, because every job description typically looks the same where all of this is at the bottom. So we need to sell it up front. I would also say format. I can't tell you how many firms will send me a job description that's three to five pages. Nobody's ever going to look at that or read through. So you're either going to have somebody not apply or the wrong person apply because they didn't take the time to fully read it. So it needs to be readable and always a page.

Max, yeah, it's like the resumes themselves, right? Like, I always have this three page resume, and people said, no one has the time to read that. And I'm like, I couldn't understand, like, they wouldn't take the time to read my resume. And then you become a hiring manager, and the biggest problem when you're hiring is often that you're down a person. So guess what? You're doing two jobs. And so you're doing two jobs, you're trying to keep your finger in the holes in the dike, yep. And now you've got to go through 100 resumes, right? 15 interviews, second interviews. Good luck with finding the time to do all of that, exactly. So that's really, really great advice on the job description. Similarly, what is a great way to do?

Reference, checks. Oh, good question. So I have a form that I will send out just to get approval for it, number one, and then they can tell me, like, who they'd want depending every state's different with laws based on employment law. So New York is very different than Washington state, for example. So you have to be just cognizant of that. But I usually ask for references that are related to the job, or at least the industry. I don't want someone from a prior career that's not relevant to what it is that they're doing. Two to three is key. Many firms tell me that they do not want to conduct a reference check. I always suggest doing it. Their reason is that they say, well, you'll never get a bad reference. I can tell by somebody's tone of voice very clearly, even if they're not breaking employment law of, Wow, I need to hire this person versus, well, you know, they're all right. So you want to make sure to just keep it very short and sweet, depending on your state laws and what you can ask. But one of the questions that I ask at the end of every reference check, and this is really the tone that I was talking about, is, if given the opportunity, and you were in the position to, would you rehire? And typically it's either 100% Absolutely, or it's Yeah, and I know right then and there. And then I'm going to maybe ask for another reference to if maybe I got too amazing in one of those and looking at the timeline, but you can find a lot through a reference check, so I always suggest it. But of course, they it's firm's final decision.

Have you ever heard of the swanborough reference check? No, I've not. I knew you didn't, because I used to work for a great guy named Robert Swan bro. I'm going to send you this link to give him credit and his strategy that he taught me. These were even the days before LinkedIn. You'd look at resumes, and you'd look at other people who work at places where this person had previously worked, and he would always try and call someone at those places. Now in LinkedIn, it's super easy, because you can look at the previous job, look at your connections. Oh, I know. So and so he used to work there. He used to work with the law firm, or whatever, sure. So he would always try and call a couple people who weren't given by the candidate. What do you think about the swan bro method?

So depending on employment law, now, it can be illegal depending on where you're located. So you have to take

because obviously, if someone's employed, you can't go letting people know that they're looking for a job. Or, yeah, yeah.

And I usually get permission from the candidate, just like, letting them know also, I mean, just from a timing and strategy perspective, it's already very difficult to track these people down. So by telling the candidate, it's also saying, Hey, make sure, like, basically, follow up with this person you know, like they've already been in touch with them, to let them know I'm calling and. Then I can get them on the phone faster. But a lot of firms are like, you know, they're like, why isn't the reference check done? It usually takes about three days to get all of them. It just does, yeah.

And equally tough, a lot of our prospective clients want to speak to our existing clients for a reference check, and by the time two lawyers get together, my Forget it generally, that deal's gone cool. What we do is we'll get videos. So we have some great testimonial videos from our clients. I'll send over three or four of those videos, and we actually have one hour case study videos on our YouTube. The clients talked about how effective everything's working. And I'm happy to make introductions to those attorneys if the short testimony on the long video doesn't work right, I'm getting sidetracked, as usual. So we did job description, we did references. I want to touch on culture, because you mentioned you're certified in workplace culture. First of all, what is a certification in workplace culture? Sure. So let's talk about that little devil called culture,

yeah, so there's an organization called culture talk, and I've been certified with them. And so it's learning, obviously, about all the aspects of culture, some of the psychology behind it, archetype. So thinking about not just a DISC assessment and personality, but questions, situational questions, and pertaining to personality, but how you know, how would they handle different situations? And what are they looking for, too? Because somebody could have an amazing personality, and we think they're going to fit, but they could go into a law firm, and maybe that's not what they were looking for. And it really takes one person to kill the culture there, right? Or it could take one to make it amazing. And so I went through this certification, and then, in addition to that, they also have surveys. So if I were to go on site to a law firm, we could do like, a half of a day, or we could analyze their culture. This is a great thing to do the beginning of the year, because as most of the firms that I work with, I work to hire on many different roles, support staff and Associates. So like, I have one firm where we've hired maybe three or four people this year, and that means the culture has shifted. It could be for the positive, but it has changed. So can we assess it? They're going to continue to grow? How can we figure out exactly what they're looking for? And then, as we continue to hire, we can issue culture surveys, the final round of candidates, and determine if we have, you know, this happens all the time, and there's two people who is amazing, and they're like, we'll we don't. Well, we don't know who to pick. That's a great time to insert that culture survey into the process and then determine who would be a better culture fit if they both have the great qualifications.

So what is this little devil called culture? Like, how do you describe it? You use personal injury as great example. We have a lot of pi folks. Listen to this. What is the typical culture of a personal injury firm? Or what are two or three different cultural arc types? And what are good fits for those Sure?

So when we think about every area of different law, the culture is so different. Think pi tends to be a little bit more fast moving of a culture, and I don't think there's consistency before I come in necessarily, on retention at a PI firm, but there's roles that maybe don't exist, like an intake coordinator, right? Family Law, same thing. So thinking about most of the people that are working there, especially if they're on the plaintiff side, like they have to be extremely empathetic, right? And so how can we make sure that we're hiring the right people that can be empathetic towards the clients, but also be efficient, so that they're not staying on the calls too long, and then thinking about, okay, who are the attorneys in the office? What is their story, about how they got into pi and how can we find somebody that's going to care enough? I have a firm like this now where culture is everything, because the owner of the firm has a very strong passion behind pi based on how he grew up and how his family was treated by other attorneys. And so when we're looking for that culture fit, yes, it's personality and it's what that person's looking for in a culture, but also, why is it that they want to do this or stay in pi? That's what you kind of have to determine. Then, how are they going to interact with others? I suggest, for a lot of law firms, especially if, before I come in, they've had issues with hiring, a great way to assess it is, besides the culture surveys, is at that final stage, have them come in for like, an on site lunch interview, or it could be in a restaurant, but invite the entire team and see how everybody blends together. That's one of the best things that can be done. How are they interacting outside of an office culture within the office with every single person? Are they respecting the receptionist as much as they are a partner in the firm? And is that indicative of how they're going to be treating clients in the future? So I

like to, unfortunately, I can't be in all these places to be at all these lunch interviews, but that's something I highly suggest, if it's not a remote role, and the people are local enough to do that.

Yeah, interesting. We're remote, and we recently had two great candidates for an account manager job, and someone in my mastermind suggested we do a group interview. And so literally, we had everyone, almost everyone in the company, Assistant Manager and above, with the two candidates back to back, and we just looked for culture fit. And we run Eos, so we know our core values and our culture. And sure, it was unanimous, and we were lucky enough to hire the lucky candidate who was a really good fit and has a great culture fit with our group, but you mentioned bad culture too, and you mentioned getting out of a job with the bad culture, you know, on a scale of one to 10, the number one job just dissatisfaction is people don't like their boss. But in addition to that, what's the difference between, you know, really bad culture, 789, out of 10, and some Millennials don't understand it actually is work. You're actually supposed to show up and do your job and actually work eight hours a day. And I know that's a challenging concept, at least from the manager's perspective, right, thinking about these employees, but you know, all kidding aside, what is really bad culture, and when do you need to get out? And how do you get out?

Yeah, great question. So I think at the extreme end, I mean, I also work in the career transition space, so I've heard everything and alone, what I have gone through and why I chose to leave the corporate world as well. I think on, you know, the extreme right side of that set, maybe between eight and 10, you have harassment, so sexual, verbal, death threats. I've heard everything at this point, and so yeah, this is, yeah, the extreme right, and it's honestly happening way more than people think, but at different degrees. So I'd say that's the eight to 10. The five to seven is a lot of a passive aggressiveness, low retention. It's usually the people that are very straightforward and not thinking how their actions are going to impact their employees. They probably have an evaluated candidates from a culture perspective either. So they may have hired more highly sensitive people that aren't as direct, and maybe that is who's needed in the role so they're it's almost like this unawareness of what it's not that they're necessarily doing on purpose, right? Like they're not purposely harassing somebody. They're more just like being passively rude, which is leading for people to say, I could go to this other firm that's like, going to respect me. This five to seven could also be not rewarding your employees, so not recognizing all their achievements, four to five, I would say, is mostly just the the retention issue, high turnover, yeah,

and clearly culture, when there's retention, yeah issues and a lot of turnover, yeah, it's hard on the company. It's hard on the owners, of course, managers, and it's hard on the employees, because you're filling in for someone. And I feel like we've gone through spurts of growth, uh huh, and your short jobs. And also, like you said, the culture changes a little bit, like when we hit the next level. And the next level, the business, the way we do business changes, Oh sure, yeah. And that's, that's culture, right?

Yeah. And that's why, like, this four to five category, I would just say, is, like, when I interview people, a lot of the times will say, Well, I'm leaving because there's a retention problem. And then if I ask them about it, they don't necessarily always have a negative thing to say about the firm. They're just like, well, there's a retention issue, so I'm worried about my job. So that's, again, lack of awareness. And then one to three, I would say not has some work to do. How could we make it better? How, you know, think about a firm that's fully in person with zero flexibility or doesn't have benefits yet, and they have just work to do. And they often add the 401, k, right. How are we going to keep people but people are fairly happy, like they like the personality of everybody there. But now it's more of a let's just add one more thing, or maybe let's take the firm out for a holiday dinner, or give them a big thing. Now, I see is switching from annual to quarterly bonuses. That's going very well for small firms. And let's give them their birthday off. Like these little things they add up.

That's a good one. So what's the difference like? What do you see between cities and more rural? A lot of law firms are like, Oh, my God, we just cannot find lawyers. And I immediately put them in touch with Erin . But what are you seeing like in different geographies in the country? And is there a rural versus urban or what trends?

Sure, that's a good question. Everyone asked that. Think first is I always evaluate the firm is if it's in a super rural area, depending on the role, I won't always hire for it. So I find that some small law firms don't necessarily think about where they're opening their firm and how they're going to get talent. This is something I see a lot, and so it's not that hard to get the receptionist or the paralegal, but if we want a junior associate that's two years out of college, it's going to be sometime, and I won't always commit to it, it can be very difficult. So there's flexibility there. That's when we can start to look into remote options so that we're not limited to younger people not living in the area. And then they almost have to be like, alright, well, guess. I'll take them, and I have a firm actually, I'm working with right now, and this is the second time I worked with a firm like this, where they came to me like we literally have tried everything. We don't know what to do. And in that case, if you live in an area where we can really sell what it is that that area has to offer, and it's unique enough, we can provide a relocation stipend for somebody to go there. And I love these job posts because I get to learn about the area and really sell. You know what it is about that area? And there's always something attractive, right? Whether it's like the outdoors or I'm thinking of another for my hired for skiing in the winter. And it's interesting through the interviews, like, why people want to come here, and often there is that strong connection. What I would say is, if you are going to go that route, that person's reasoning for wanting to move there has to be so strong. And then I always suggest an on site interview, where they would come for a few days and almost kind of like work there, and get to know everybody. So you know, if you're in a rural area, that's always my suggestion. Other than that, the northeast, I probably

see the fastest hiring process out of anywhere else in the country. And from a remote perspective, I'm seeing a lot of firms that are not in the Northeast starting to go a little bit more remote, depending for well, Ace they can afford talent. Like even some firms in the Northeast are like, great, if I can get some. Can get someone in Nebraska, if they don't need to be licensed in your state. I am seeing that more and more, but I tend to see that a little bit more with firms out west and down south,

great, and you're based in the city, in New York City. Yeah, you hire all across the country, right?

Yes, I hire all around the country. I mean, I've hired in Wyoming and, you know, like really specific little cities out west as well. I live down south for 14 years, so I'm very familiar with the culture down there, and I started my company in Atlanta, so familiar with the firms down there, too. Awesome.

This has been fascinating, and we could probably do another hour, and I'll come up with some more challenging questions. But the good news is, we're at the quick one liners, and I've been doing these for over 10 years with some amazing people. And so the first question I always ask is, what apps or techniques do you use? Do you use for personal productivity?

Good question. I'm a little bit less of an app person. I love writing things down, and I feel like I process them better, but I put all my notes at the top of my digital calendar every day, and then I delete them as I get them accomplished, because then I can also move them. If that's not something that needs to be done. I usually am really good at prioritizing things and that I do like to actually do with a pen versus an app, and what actually has to absolutely get that done that day versus what can be moved. So I'd say that's the number one thing I do every day. And switching from my physical to my digital calendar, I used to have Calendly, and I don't like people having control my schedule anymore, so I've eliminated

that at this point. I love Calendly, but, you

know, I do love it. It just got a little crazy. Yeah, yeah, it.

And in addition to Irish dancing, do you have a personal wellness and fitness routine? And the reason, the reason I know that is because Erin was at tgr live growth strategies for law firms are our great annual conference last year. And we were both so disappointed when I figured out, I didn't realize. I guess I should have figured it out. The event's March 16 and 17th, and Erin is an Irish dancer. So tell us about that, and tell us about your personal wellness and fitness routine. Sure, I know I

was able to squeeze the conference like just in last year. Unfortunately, the 16th and 17th are going to be my busiest days. Yes, I grew up a competitive Irish dancer, and then now I did some competitions and I was younger, and then later on, I just kind of practiced and performed, and then I taught it for a little while in high school, and then post college got back, post covid got back into it and said, there's a school in the city that I'm a part of, and we perform for concerts and various events. But St Patrick's Day, of course, is about 10 days performances. So January through March, that's the Super Bowl of Irish dancing, literally, right? So January through March is really my core time for that, but I do a program in the city. It's a workout called Dance body, and I've been doing that for about four years now, and I do it five to six days a week, so it's variations of weight training and sculpt and dance. And the most important thing to me when I work out is not, oh, I have to go to the gym. It's, I'm like, it's a hobby for me. It's like, I love going there and it'll make it fun and make it fun, right? It shouldn't have to be like, throw the gym. It's an exciting time, and I really feed off others energy.

It's the same for me. I play tennis three or four days a week, and I love the tennis days and I begrudge the gym days. But you know what? Once you get it done, it's always great, sure. What do you recommend as the best business books. I'd say

it might be a little less businessy, but I'm looking at my bookshelf, because I have them all here. The ones that I like a lot, I really like, Think and Grow Rich, just from a mindset perspective,

right on top of the list. Yeah, it's a reread for me. Yeah.

And I think that I hear a lot of people say that they can't. Get through it. And I usually suggest, like, then go to an audio and, like, someone's voice that resonates with you. Yeah, that'd probably be my top blogs.

Podcasts, YouTube's What do you subscribe to? And when it hits your feed, you're like, Oh, I gotta stop everything and listen to,

yeah, podcasts, there's one by God rose called how I built this. And I love that, because I like hearing the history behind something that I use every day. So I don't listen to every episode, but when I'm familiar with the product, I love it. I eat it up. I like the Airbnb one product. It's probably my favorite one. There's someone out there that focuses on financial mindset. Her name's Amanda Francis, and she's based in California, and she releases a lot of I've also done her paid content, but she releases a lot of free content, and it's, I'm just amazed how she's like, gotten to where she is. And then the last one, I would say, is Lydia finett has a podcast called claim your confidence, and she's based in New York City, and it's not products and services, but it's individuals, and so often, those that have created a product or service. And same thing, there are a lot of them are based in New York, and I always find it fascinating of what they're doing and what their life is, of how they got to where they are now, great.

How is the city these days? I feel like I used to be up there every couple months, and now it's like once a year or so. Yeah, I love New York. It's the best for me, but I don't have a feel. What's it like today to live there and do business.

It's packed. Think we're at over capacity, like after. I feel like, you know, I remember so many people in covid saying the city is never going to come back. And I never listened to that, because it's the capital of the world, right? So first it's going to come back. And it's definitely, I think, more packed than it was pre covid. But the energy is good. I thought,

I thought everyone in New York moved to Florida, because every house that's for sale for a minute, someone buys it. Well, a lot of

companies required them to come back. So that was one thing. And then, yeah, I think there's a certain energy here. And, like, I know that I need it, right? So I think depending on your needs and where you are in your career, a lot of people do come back for that.

Yeah, yeah, who's your NFL or sports team?

I'm not the biggest sports person, but I am a Giants and a Yankee fan.

And what's a great introduction for you? I'm sure everyone's listening and thinking, oh my goodness, I gotta call Erin . But in our networking group, like, what's a great introduction? Where do we see that opportunity?

Sure, so they're usually small firms. My sweet spot is about five to 30. That just because I see that most often, but I work with about five to 400 so really small and a mid size, they have a focus on culture. They either have good retention or they can't figure out why they don't, and they're really focused on it, so as long as they have the intention behind it, and firms that are scaling and growing. I always think it's best that it's a firm that works with somebody like you, you know, a business coach. They're open to outside service providers that are giving them the strategy and direction. I think that's always the best. And they want to figure out how they can afford to scale and grow. They're excited about it, and they're looking to hire a long term right? That's really important. But I'd say culture and probably financial aspect are the biggest thing. So if you're used to paying that really expensive recruiter rate, I do flat rate, so it makes it much more affordable, and you can plan,

and we didn't talk about the career retention piece, if someone's in that toxic environment or just thinking about moving on to another niche or something. Sure. Tell us about how you help with that role. Sure.

Yeah, so do some career transition work. And actually, a lot of lawyers do come through with that. It could be other areas, but sometimes it's somebody in big law that has maybe worked there for five years. They're paid wonderfully, but in exchange they have no life. And so they come to me in a great financial spot, and they're like, I don't even care about the money. And then they'll underestimate themselves and be like, I'm fine with x. And you're like, No, you're not like, you're used to this lifestyle. Let's figure out how we can kind of meet in the middle, identify the area of where they should transition, then I brand them for that job search. So an example would be a big law attorney switching to small law, or maybe even going in house, kind of related to the podcast, for a product or service that they really like. But I also interview a lot of people that are in big law coming to small law. And what I would advise small firms, because I hear this a lot, is, why would this person ever want to come to my firm? And it's really the same, it's the same reason they left right, like they want a partnership track, they want the culture aspect, and at the end of the day, they want a life outside of working 100 hours, because maybe they're growing their family at that point, or for whatever reason. But know that big law candidates do want to come to small law firms. Awesome.

And last question, Where can people get in touch with you?

Yeah, so on LinkedIn is like, one of my main platforms. It's Erin Andersen. My last name is Sen at the end, so I always suggest Ian, right, yes, Sen, just being careful of that. I'm on Instagram at your brand networker, and then my email is pretty easy. It's just info at your brand networker, making sure there's an ER at the end.com. Are always happy to offer free consultations, and we always provide salary data and comps before anyone commits Erin

This was a lot of fun. I learned a lot, and I'm sure everybody else did. Thank you so much.

Thank you appreciate having me.