Why Your Team Isn't Accountable

Welcome, dear listeners, to the Speak and Flow podcast, where we dive into unique stories and experiences to help you and your team achieve maximum potential and flow, even when the stakes are high.

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Melinda Lee: Today, I have a leader. She's in the eligibility… she's a senior manager for eligibility enrollment experiences at Cover California, where she solves complex problems, delivers results through compelling user experience, design, and accessibility.

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Melinda Lee: Marjan Zamanian.

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Marjan Zamanian: Thank you. Thank you, Melinda. Thanks a lot.

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Melinda Lee: Oh my god.

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Marjan Zamanian: me.

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Melinda Lee: I'm so glad you're here, thank you so much for being here. So what is exciting in the world of user experience design and accessibility?

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Marjan Zamanian: Gosh, a lot going on in this area. There are different tools. The AI is competing with everybody, looks like it's hard to catch up.

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Marjan Zamanian: You know, what's new every day, but I think at the end of the day, you know, still, we need to be empowered that we can use, our humanity and being able to, build, build a different experience that is more human.

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Marjan Zamanian: For people who are using different softwares, different platforms, in order to kind of, you know, do the thing that they want to do on, in digital environment.

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Marjan Zamanian: So, that has been my goal for many years, and I also love the fact that, you know, I've learned so much in leadership and being able to, kind of implement different tools, that I'm excited about to talk about today.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, because you're right, it's so exciting to have all these tools, all these things that can really speed up our productivity and innovation, and it's remembering to set that intention.

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Melinda Lee: An intent to be human, right? And to humanize it, and not, like, lose ourselves.

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Marjan Zamanian: Yep.

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Melinda Lee: Which we can. And going back into… you've been in this space for a very long time, you're a senior manager now, and when have you experienced leaders who have lost some of humanity, where they were not empathetic? Can you share a specific moment?

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Marjan Zamanian: Yeah, I think kind of, you know, I'm sure it happens to all of us at some point, but, I remember, as a manager, as a designer, I used to go to, design reviews, to kind of showcase my work.

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Marjan Zamanian: and, get feedback, from different leaders in the team, and also different managers, that they would kind of give me the feedback, so I could work on, iterations of the design.

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Marjan Zamanian: And also get, kind of, like, the final, alignment and agreement, kind of approval, so we could basically build

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Marjan Zamanian: that system or the experience, with development team and engineers and my product teams, we were cross-functional.

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Marjan Zamanian: And, you know, being able to kind of, put that out there so people can use and can get benefit out of and iterate as we kind of go through different phases.

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Marjan Zamanian: And, at that time, I, I was reporting to a director, and he was also in that meeting for the presentation.

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Marjan Zamanian: That I had, and he said… and I said, wow, so this is maybe the last session that, you know, I'm coming here to kind of present this experience, and I would love to

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Marjan Zamanian: Get, like, the final approval for this, and so exciting that we are so close.

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Marjan Zamanian: And he said, you know, I just wanted to let you know that this is not perfect yet.

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Marjan Zamanian: Or, you know, this is not perfect. I don't remember exactly what he said. And then, it was the moment that, you know, he didn't see the hard work behind the scene.

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Marjan Zamanian: And, I thought maybe he just wanted to kind of push me a little bit, kind of challenge me towards, you know, you need to do better, this is not enough.

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Marjan Zamanian: But in my mind, I was like, this is so wrong. You can't… you kind of…

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Marjan Zamanian: can see the way that people behave sometimes, that…

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Marjan Zamanian: Oops, you know, this is wrong.

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Marjan Zamanian: He shouldn't have said that.

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Marjan Zamanian: Or, so I thought, okay, this is… this is maybe a challenge also for him.

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Marjan Zamanian: That, he needs to work on this, you know, as far as, like, communication, because he was the leader, you know, he was leading different managers at that time, and, also he was, he had a direct report,

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Marjan Zamanian: he was kind of, he had a VP,

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Marjan Zamanian: Of design that, he wanted to kind of report to, basically. So I thought, okay, maybe this person, it has more, you know, he is more towards, like, leading, towards, like, the

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Marjan Zamanian: hire managers, or, leading upper managers, or, you know, supporting them instead of kind of leading us and empowering us, because in my mind, I was thinking, you know, this type of leader, he doesn't know how to lift up.

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Marjan Zamanian: Compared to, you know, maybe he never actually learned. Right. So, yeah.

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Melinda Lee: the fact that he said this is almost not even perfect, like, who's… how can we get anything perfect nowadays? I mean, even if he didn't use those words, but the feeling that you got was, like, it's not perfect, it's not good enough.

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Marjan Zamanian: Yeah, it's not good enough. Yeah. Right. Yeah. So, yeah, and I thought, okay, well, you know, it is what it is.

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Marjan Zamanian: I'm not here to change the way that he leads. It's gonna be very difficult for me to kind of tell him that I didn't appreciate, that approach.

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Marjan Zamanian: Because in corporations, it's very hard to kind of, talk about what is not working.

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Marjan Zamanian: Because they can just let you go the next day.

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Marjan Zamanian: So, most people, kind of stop in that area, and that's why people change, jobs so often, especially in tech companies, because they just get tired of these type of leaders.

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Melinda Lee: Most people leave because of their managers.

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Melinda Lee: and the managers have a big role and influence of their team. Right. How have you taken this situation and, into your own leadership with your team?

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Marjan Zamanian: So these are, you know, the moments that I kind of take notes, because they don't go away from my brain, or, you know, they kind of get sticky at some point. And, you know, these are the moments that I say… I tell myself that I should never do this myself.

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Marjan Zamanian: you know, I should be able to lift up people rather than putting them down. And, empowerment, I think that's a great tool to be able to, I have been actually using empowerment for many, many years in my teams.

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Marjan Zamanian: And being able to, kind of, and make sure that they feel the ownership of, you know, a specific project that they're working on, and…

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Marjan Zamanian: I see them to be more engaged when they feel empowered, because, you know, they're not waiting for my approval. They're trying to kind of solve the problem based on all the tools and techniques that I can mentor them with.

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Marjan Zamanian: Or, you know,

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Marjan Zamanian: And then they can kind of make a decision on how they want to implement that, you know, solution for that specific problem they're trying to solve.

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Marjan Zamanian: And in design, specifically, we have different tools, although my new role at Covert California, it's a little bit different, because in government, you might have folks in your team that they are not specifically

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Marjan Zamanian: designers or researchers, so then I still have to kind of be mindful of, you know, what they know, based on what we want to kind of,

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Marjan Zamanian: implement and have that experience available for people in California to be able to use that experience and get healthcare, for instance.

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Marjan Zamanian: So those are the things that I kind of need to be, mindful of.

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Melinda Lee: How do you balance the, the flow between the upper management to… for you, and then to the lower? And then how do you hold people accountable, by empowering them? Like, if you have to give really tough feedback, how do you do that?

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Marjan Zamanian: Sure, so, so yes, that is very true. Sometimes I see myself that, you know, those, extension wire.

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Marjan Zamanian: That you kind of, you know, connected to the bulb, and then also it's connected to the team, and especially with middle managers, you know, sometimes we also have to be hands-on, and we have projects to work on, but still, we need to kind of be able to see

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Marjan Zamanian: the bigger picture that, or the vision from the leadership, from the organization, and then, translate that to what the outcome or what we need to kind of build together in order for people to use.

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Marjan Zamanian: So, I… I try to connect that based on, you know, different, tools, and also I kind of see that as a recipe, like, what is… how can I build a strategy, for instance?

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Marjan Zamanian: from, that bigger picture of the mission or the vision of that organization, like, currently, it's, COVID California. How can I deliver a high-quality healthcare that is also accessible and affordable for people in California?

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Marjan Zamanian: So in order to do that, well, it means that we need to kind of be mindful of all the changes that recently is happening also, or happening. So this is something that is going to be a little bit of a challenge. But, but I… what I would say is,

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Marjan Zamanian: Based on all of these challenges, I also see, the creativity that can build, to empower everyone to overcome these type of challenges, right?

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Marjan Zamanian: So… so those are the things that, for instance, I have in mind, but as far as, like, how I can empower my team.

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Marjan Zamanian: is to show them the bigger picture, what is the North Star that we want to, kind of envision, that this is how we see the whole world can be, and then, how can I,

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Marjan Zamanian: kind of build… actually, how can I build these steps?

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Marjan Zamanian: And all the milestones with my team, and so we can kind of co-create that… those milestones in order to reach to that, North Star.

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Melinda Lee: Hmm, I don't.

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Marjan Zamanian: So, yeah, I think that's super important, and sometimes people don't even do it, don't even think about it, because they feel like they are alone, and I think as a manager, you do not want to be alone either. You have a team, right?

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Marjan Zamanian: So you can bring in your team, co-create together, use different techniques or workshops, and also, you know, when you have a team, sometimes you have extroverts, and sometimes you have introverts in your team.

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Marjan Zamanian: Some people who are introverts, they speak less during the meetings, or during that,

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Marjan Zamanian: Session, or within the whole conversation about how we can envision and build those milestones.

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Marjan Zamanian: So it's kind of nice to use different tools, like workshops, for instance, because they don't need to speak, they can write down all the things that they have in their mind that would benefit, and how we want to kind of build this powerful

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Marjan Zamanian: product that people can use and get their healthcare, for instance, and

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Marjan Zamanian: By empowering them this way, it means that they are also involved, they are part of the process.

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Marjan Zamanian: The same way that the users are part of the process, because still in design, we do a lot of research, we collect data, we understand how the product works today, and then how we want the product to be shaped in the future.

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Marjan Zamanian: take, right?

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Melinda Lee: So.

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Marjan Zamanian: So yeah, and then I also think that accountability comes with, it's… it's very connected to empowerment.

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Marjan Zamanian: So, if the team is not empowered, they're not going to be engaged, therefore they're not going to feel accountable, and they start kind of thinking about, okay, so, you know, nobody wants my…

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Marjan Zamanian: nobody thinks… nobody wants my, thoughts, or nobody want… want to know what I think.

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Marjan Zamanian: Or, They, they need to be seen, right?

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Marjan Zamanian: And we want different, diverse,

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Marjan Zamanian: kind of ideas, when we are building products, so I think it's very important to, have different viewpoints, and

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Marjan Zamanian: Create this thing together, rather than, build this in silo.

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Melinda Lee: Have you needed to build your own voice? Like, in terms of your confident voice, and how do you share that with your team?

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Marjan Zamanian: Building my voice. So, I had so many challenges building my voice, honestly, Melinda. I can write a book for you.

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Melinda Lee: Okay, let's do it!

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Marjan Zamanian: Well, because you…

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Melinda Lee: Because you mentioned some of the introverts, right? Like, how do you bring everybody and the whole team along, even when they're introverts and they're shy?

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Marjan Zamanian: Yeah, they're shy. Yeah, exactly. So, I was… actually, I was never shy, and I always, kind of pushed back on, if somebody would say, you shouldn't do this, I would go and definitely do it.

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Marjan Zamanian: One, funny story that, when I was, you know, back home, home is Iran.

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Marjan Zamanian: And, back home, you know, people, when they want to go to high school from middle school, they have two options. They can either, you know, study math, or they can,

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Melinda Lee: Doctor.

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Marjan Zamanian: Yeah, exactly. So it's like, you have two options. And I was like, okay, but I see other people, you know, other students, they're kind of deciding to go to a technical school.

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Marjan Zamanian: And then, like, graphic design, or, you know, and my dad was an architect, too, and, so it was kind of close.

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Marjan Zamanian: And my mom said, no, the girls who go to the technical school, they're, like, bad girls. You do not go to those schools. And I was like, oh my gosh.

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Marjan Zamanian: That's why I have to go to the technical school!

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Melinda Lee: Oh my gosh, oh, your mom, poor mom!

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Marjan Zamanian: Nope.

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Melinda Lee: Do it! You made the right choice!

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Marjan Zamanian: Oh, yeah.

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Marjan Zamanian: So, I was forced to, go to, like, a regular school.

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Marjan Zamanian: high school, and then I spent, like, one year over there, and all the grades were so low, and they gave up, finally. And, I think one thing that actually I have that I feel like, you know, if I was able to do this.

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Marjan Zamanian: Then other people can also do it, is to not giving up on what you really want to do.

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Marjan Zamanian: And, because you… you will get there. Yeah. So, then I went to the technical school, it was really fun.

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Marjan Zamanian: Until it wasn't, because they called us out and said, you know, we see some students that they go on top of the, on the third floor, and they start smoking.

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Melinda Lee: Oh.

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Marjan Zamanian: So, and then they called our parents, and, so we couldn't go to school for, like, one week,

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Marjan Zamanian: So it was kind of one of those things. Yes, you learn all the bad stuff, but you also learn the good stuff that you are passionate about. So I think those are the things that I, I thrived on, and I brought it to,

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Marjan Zamanian: you know, who I am today, pretty much. And, sometimes there were challenges, and sometimes, you know, I learned those, you know, I…

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Marjan Zamanian: I just went through it, and.

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Melinda Lee: That's how you made… that's how you got stronger, and that's how you build your confidence.

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Marjan Zamanian: Yeah, that's how I build my confidence, but again, you know, working in corporations, it's a different story. So, I used to, you know, think, like, for instance.

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Marjan Zamanian: why some people are very quiet. I was also… sometimes I was quiet, and I felt like I'm not being seen.

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Marjan Zamanian: I'm not being heard, so how can I, kind of,

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Marjan Zamanian: how can I overcome this issue, right?

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Marjan Zamanian: So…

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Marjan Zamanian: And I think it was kind of the time that I was going to yoga classes, and kind of exploring different yoga techniques.

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Marjan Zamanian: One thing that they mentioned that, you know, yoga helps people to… because you're stretching your body, you're kind of expanding and getting taller, you're… you can actually get about 2 inches taller when you practice yoga after, like, a year.

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Marjan Zamanian: So, because, you know, those are the muscles that you haven't used, you haven't stretched, so when you do it, then you kind of, you know, feel tired. I mean, feel, taller, and people see you taller. Although I'm, like, 5'2", but I've seen people telling me that

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Marjan Zamanian: wow, you look so tall today, or you're so tall. I'm like, no, I'm just 5'2".

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Marjan Zamanian: And, so I think these are the techniques that I use in,

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Marjan Zamanian: kind of stretch yourself, you know, feel, take more space. It's okay to take more space. I feel like, you know, in my team, in my current team, something that I want to implement

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Marjan Zamanian: Is to, you know, make sure that they can… we can actually stretch together. Like, let's do a yoga pose together before we start any meeting, to kind of clear our mind, right?

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Melinda Lee: Oh, yeah, I mean, I think that that pause is so important, that's… you're gonna… can I be on your team?

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Marjan Zamanian: Good!

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Marjan Zamanian: Don't join us.

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Melinda Lee: I mean, this is where companies need to really adopt these type of practices, because we're constantly going, AI's here, technology's here, and using techniques like this to bring the human back to connection as we implement these tools, as we go forward, but to pause.

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Melinda Lee: And be expansive.

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Melinda Lee: and allow for creativity, because otherwise we're constantly working, working, and then we're not… the creativity, I think, gets dimmed, and it gets shut down, because…

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Melinda Lee: There's no room, there's no… because creativity comes when you're expansive, and taking that pause.

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Marjan Zamanian: Yeah, taking the pause, exactly. That's super important.

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Melinda Lee: Going into yoga poses like that, like, to help stretch…

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Marjan Zamanian: Yeah.

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Marjan Zamanian: Exactly, then you… you're not gonna sit like this all the time, right? So you kind of… Punched over, yeah.

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Marjan Zamanian: Yeah, exactly.

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Marjan Zamanian: And, and also, people see you that way, that you're, you know, you… you seem more confident that way, rather than, you know, sitting a little bit, kind of.

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Marjan Zamanian: you don't want to be small, right? You want to kind of… even if, I've seen many leaders that they're very…

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Marjan Zamanian: confident, they're very quiet, they speak less, they listen more often, and, but, you know, they're still kind of, you know, they're very… they have strong posture, so I think that… that part is important.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, I agree. So, reminding ourselves to keep the posture to include our body as we communicate will help you to feel more confident.

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Marjan Zamanian: Absolutely. Get more confident, and the other thing that it was kind of an interesting in yoga that I've learned is to, you go to yoga because you want to kind of feel centered, you want to, stay in that, present moment, right?

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Marjan Zamanian: So, they would say, okay, when you come to the class, your brain has a lot of stuff, because you wake up in the morning, you feel like, okay, I need to go to Costco today, I didn't, you know, put together my shopping list.

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Melinda Lee: Then, you know, what do I want to buy, whatever.

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Marjan Zamanian: Or if you had a fight with someone in your family, then they say, okay, put those thoughts at the end of your yoga mat.

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Marjan Zamanian: And then you can take it whenever, you know, your yoga is done.

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Marjan Zamanian: But during that session, just stay focused and present.

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Melinda Lee: Great.

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Marjan Zamanian: I think that was kind of, like, an interesting…

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Marjan Zamanian: Yeah, interesting things that I've learned.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, because it's not going to help you in the class, it's not going to help you when there's a high-stakes moment, and that's what I tell people, too, when there's something that's really important, or something that… there's an emergency, a lot of our times, our brain is thinking about all the different things that are gonna happen, and spiral into somewhere else.

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Melinda Lee: The best thing is just practice on being present.

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Marjan Zamanian: Yep, in prison.

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Melinda Lee: Right now, yeah.

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Marjan Zamanian: Amazing.

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Melinda Lee: your breath.

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Marjan Zamanian: Exactly, yeah.

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Melinda Lee: Right.

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Marjan Zamanian: No, I was gonna say that you prioritize too, right? Because even, especially, you know, like, you mentioned emergency, so, yeah, I think it's important to kind of prioritize

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Marjan Zamanian: the short… in this short moment, what do you need to do to forget about the long-term

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Marjan Zamanian: Thing that is going to happen later on.

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Marjan Zamanian: So, yeah, I think it's important. I wish, you know, these were the things that we could kind of learn at school.

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Marjan Zamanian: But we learn in life.

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Melinda Lee: In real life. Marjan, thank you so much, that was so fun, and what is that one leadership golden takeaway that you want people to remember?

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Marjan Zamanian: Yeah, so thank you, actually, for having me. It's very exciting, for everybody to kind of have their voice heard, so I appreciate,

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Marjan Zamanian: you giving me decision to kind of… so I can speak my mind and, be present. One thing that I've learned, and I would like, you know, others to kind of think about.

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Marjan Zamanian: Is to, you know, we live, inside our own story, and while others only see the cover.

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Marjan Zamanian: So I think it's important to kind of think about, you know, the way that we believe ourselves, and people see us differently, doesn't matter. We just have to keep going.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, like, we know ourselves, like, keep on honing in on ourselves.

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Marjan Zamanian: Yep.

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Melinda Lee: And it doesn't matter what other people are thinking.

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Marjan Zamanian: No, doesn't matter at all.

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Melinda Lee: Well, I really admire you because you're in this industry that's predominantly male, usually, and you broke out of your own tradition and culture to be in the tech industry as a male, as a female, and you're not bad, like your mom said.

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Marjan Zamanian: Thank you. Yeah, it was hard work.

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Melinda Lee: Breaking the mold, breaking the mold, and doing what you love, and doing what you're really great at.

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Marjan Zamanian: Yeah, yeah, I was also fortunate, but, you know, there were many, many steps that, it… they were hard work, but it's worth it.

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Melinda Lee: Right, and your team is very lucky to have you.

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Marjan Zamanian: Thank you, that's very sweet.

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Melinda Lee: The companies are very lucky. So thank you so much, Marjan, and thank you, audience, for being here. I trust that you got your golden takeaway for the day, and remember, implement them, make a bigger impact, and anytime you have a conversation, you're also connecting and inspiring.

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Melinda Lee: I am your sister in flow. Until next time, take care. May prosperity flow to you and through you.

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Melinda Lee: Love you. Bye-bye.

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Melinda Lee: Bye-bye!

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Marjan Zamanian: Bye.