Stop Pushing Change and Start Leading It

Yeah, you got it.

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Melinda Lee: Welcome, dear listeners, to the Speak and Flow podcast, where we dive into unique strategies and stories to help you and your team achieve maximum potential and flow, even when the stakes are high. I have an amazing leader, she's a trailblazer in the change area, helping leaders and their teams navigate change in companies.

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Melinda Lee: She is an executive coach, and her name is Julia Vonar, and she's the founder of Corp Leadership.

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Melinda Lee: Hi, Julia.

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Julia Wojnar: Hi, Melinda, thanks so much for having me.

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Melinda Lee: I'm so excited to dive into our conversation. I think it's top of mind for a lot of people. And before we get into it, can you share with us some context about what you're doing? What are you excited about when you see and you're working with these organizations?

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Julia Wojnar: Absolutely. Well, one thing I'm really excited about these days, Melinda, is

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Julia Wojnar: the work that I'm doing with corporate leaders in large organizations that are going through

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Julia Wojnar: lots of change. I'm sure it's no surprise to anyone these days that the whole economy, business, place, the world is just going through a lot of transition, it seems, a lot of change and upheaval. I know I personally

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Julia Wojnar: really love to focus in on that area, because I, as well, have gone through lots of change and transition in my own career, in my life.

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Julia Wojnar: And so I really feel resonance in working with leaders navigating those kinds of issues. And one thing I'm really excited about, in particular, and happy to share with your listeners, is

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Julia Wojnar: the importance of figuring out, I think, what your own style is as a leader, and how to best use that to capitalize on your strengths, and also

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Julia Wojnar: fill in for some of those weaknesses. So, I actually put together a little quiz, that anyone can take. It's available…

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Melinda Lee: Cool.

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Julia Wojnar: At corpleadership.com slash style quiz.

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Julia Wojnar: And in there, you have a really…

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Julia Wojnar: Just fun, quick, easy quiz that'll tell you what your natural leadership style is, and how best to utilize that in achieving your goals.

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Melinda Lee: I love that. Thank you so much for sharing that. So, I think you're right, especially through all this change and upheaval, we really need to know and own our strengths to move forward.

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Melinda Lee: Taking that leadership assessment or that strength assessment sounds like this is the perfect tool to gain more insight.

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Julia Wojnar: Yes, and I think that's also something that, as we talked about these changes happening, and as companies evolve, and things change over time, that also changes

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Julia Wojnar: within us as individuals, and so as we change and we get involved, then kind of knowing and having that self-awareness, I think, is so important for leaders to know, when they're faced with something

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Julia Wojnar: new, or maybe have uncertainties about what's gonna happen next, that can give you a real sense of grounding into how best to move forward.

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Melinda Lee: Right, right. And so… Like we mentioned, change is happening, upheaval.

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Melinda Lee: Organizations are getting bought out, there's mergers, acquisitions…

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Melinda Lee: There might be new work that, a leader has been asked to do that is new, or unexpected, or maybe something that they don't even want, and it doesn't go as they think, or as planned. So if a situation happens like this.

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Melinda Lee: In your experience, what generally happens to that leader? What is going on, both mentally, physically? What are some of the things that you experience and see?

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Julia Wojnar: Absolutely. So, one thing that I see quite a bit, Melinda, is with a lot of these changes and new challenges that are being thrown at leaders all the time, there's uncertainty, and usually when we find uncertainty, there's often fear that comes along with that.

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Julia Wojnar: And so… One thing I've seen when these organizations are trying to roll out new changes.

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Julia Wojnar: Or help their leaders to bring their teams, into what needs to happen next.

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Julia Wojnar: That, you know, that's tough, and so one of the things that

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Julia Wojnar: I often see is that if that leader is fearful about what's going to happen next, or they're just really not sure how that's going to impact them, or their team, or their company, then there is often just this really human tendency to want to kind of

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Julia Wojnar: Stick with that status quo and to push away the change, because it's hard sometimes to embrace change.

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Julia Wojnar: But yet we know that that's…

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Julia Wojnar: some of that is natural, and it's going to happen, and so what I try to do is get

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Julia Wojnar: beneath that fear, or whatever other emotions are coming up for that leader, and help them first recognize, really, what they're feeling, as you said, in their body first. Some leaders are not always even connected to that.

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Julia Wojnar: To recognize what's really going on for them internally, and how is that then

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Julia Wojnar: Showing up in their day-to-day and in the decisions that they're making.

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Melinda Lee: And a lot of…

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, and I really appreciate what you do, because sometimes what we think is holding us back is not really what might be what is true. Meaning, they might think it's somebody else's issue, or there's not enough time.

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Melinda Lee: But under, you know, that whole thought process of there's not enough time to do these changes, or they might put other resistance points up.

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Melinda Lee: But then, having someone like you to go down and dive deeper into, really, what's underneath all that, it could be something else that might be pulling them back from the change, or the fear, right? What's underneath that fear?

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Melinda Lee: I'm curious, like, what other emotions? There's fear, are there other emotions that generally come up when there's a big change that happens?

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Julia Wojnar: Yeah, I can… Often there's… there's fears, there's, there's anxieties.

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Julia Wojnar: And one of what I see as some… what often happens with a lot of these large companies, going through the changes, Melinda, is just that

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Julia Wojnar: The top leaders or the ones in charge of rolling out this change are often so focused on the finances, or the numbers, or the logistics.

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Julia Wojnar: That's what needs to be done.

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Julia Wojnar: That they can sometimes ignore the people side of it, and realize that…

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Melinda Lee: Totally.

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Julia Wojnar: in any workplace that, you know, people are people, and we have emotions, and that always, even what… what may be happening for us personally does show up to some degree in… in our work, and so when someone is faced with

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Julia Wojnar: or ask to make radical shifts in some cases, or completely shift the way that they tend to normally go about things. It's not as easy as just presenting a new strategy and

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Julia Wojnar: everyone adopting that, but really first facing the emotional aspect of it. And, you know, are people even in a place where they're able to accept that change at the moment? And if they're not, then how can we as leaders

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Julia Wojnar: help to… Bring, you know, team members along and help

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Julia Wojnar: Teams to really be aligned in moving forward through the changes, rather than being afraid or anxious or any of these other emotions that keep them from wanting to embrace it, but to almost stay in their status quo.

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Melinda Lee: So, by identifying the emotion that is tied to the change, what happens after that?

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Julia Wojnar: Yeah, so the first thing is, I think in that identification, and I know we were discussing before how that

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Julia Wojnar: First, having that awareness of how that shows up in someone's body, and then really being able to

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Julia Wojnar: then, with that awareness, move into shifting that. And one thing I always… a question I might like to ask a client is, rather than just focusing on how do they feel

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Julia Wojnar: right then in that moment is thinking future-focused to how would they like to feel? Or with any challenge that they may be going through is, you know, if this were…

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Julia Wojnar: if that weren't an issue anymore, if we were 6 months ahead of… ahead of now, and that was solved, you know, what would be different? And that can actually shift someone's perspective a little bit, to instead of getting stuck in

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Julia Wojnar: Not seeing a path forward, to almost envisioning what could be possible, and then we can kind of backtrack to what would then need to happen to create that.

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Melinda Lee: Mmm, I love that. So having them to… rather than staying stuck, like, this is not possible, I'm not sure, and the fear of it, then future focusing and imagining what could be possible, and having them actually see,

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Melinda Lee: That, you know, seeing a reframe, seeing that perspective of what could be possible.

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Melinda Lee: And just even calling it out, and I think even when they say it out loud to you, I think that could be so powerful.

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Julia Wojnar: Absolutely, yeah, and because sometimes some of those, almost like the negative self-talk that people can go through is… is in itself a kind of a habit of just…

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Julia Wojnar: almost getting caught on a loop, so to speak. But if that's actually drawn out and you say that out loud, sometimes it really brings an epiphany to someone to realize, oh, that's not true, that's just a story that I've been telling myself.

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Melinda Lee: Awesome.

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Julia Wojnar: And then we can look at what new possibilities exist, and what other stories could then be possible.

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Melinda Lee: And is there… so, I love that. So, when… as soon as we identify the feeling, the fear, or whatever emotion, maybe fear, anxiety that is holding us back, and also thinking about the negative self-talk, or identifying the negative self-talk.

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Melinda Lee: Is it those two combinations? Is there anything else that we need to… I know that sometimes people will talk about removing physical clutter.

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Julia Wojnar: It sounded like…

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Melinda Lee: Physical clutter to help us, like, move forward. What do you think?

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Julia Wojnar: Absolutely, yeah, that could… that could definitely be part of it. I think part of the… the power of coaching and what I love so much about this work is…

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Melinda Lee: Hmm.

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Julia Wojnar: In really, eliminating Yeah. The… what those barriers are to… to…

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Julia Wojnar: getting to our goals. So, often I, you know, as we were saying, it's not so much a matter of not always knowing the path forward, sometimes

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Julia Wojnar: leaders actually do know on some level what they need to do, but yet there's… there's still something nagging at them internally at…

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Julia Wojnar: causing resistance, where they're kind of saying, on one hand, well, this is what I want, but yet they're not always acting in accordance with that, because that resistance shows up. So, I think…

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Julia Wojnar: the powerful thing is realizing, you know, calling out that resistance and realizing that that's… that's actually just a natural part of growth and change, but if we're aware of it, and we can do things like decluttering, or, you know, another example I know I love for

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Julia Wojnar: The fitness spaces, people always talk about.

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Julia Wojnar: You know, set out your clothes the night before, so you have one less barrier to getting to the gym, or to actually sustaining those new habits.

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Melinda Lee: Right, right, right. And I love what you said about having it be just natural. It is a natural part of what is happening, with change.

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Melinda Lee: So it doesn't feel like, oh, I am less than, or I can't do it, and stay stuck there.

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Julia Wojnar: Yeah, because I think it's almost unrealistic to think that, you know, as humans, we have a wide range of experiences, and so if you're doing something you may never have done before, or facing.

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Melinda Lee: Right.

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Julia Wojnar: brand new situations, you're probably gonna feel some sort of…

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Julia Wojnar: it's not always anxiety, but, you know, that could very easily shift into excitement, even. And how much more feeling those emotions can propel someone to step into those changes, or

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Julia Wojnar: as I know sometimes the famous quote goes, feel the fear and do it anyway, not…

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Julia Wojnar: guilting ourselves or feeling bad about feeling that fear at times, but acknowledging that it's… it's almost there…

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Julia Wojnar: As a natural part of life, and help us realize something, but if we're able to work with it rather than fighting it, then…

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Julia Wojnar: It can really serve us much better.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, so, can you share an example of how you worked with a client through this?

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Julia Wojnar: Yeah, absolutely. So there is one example that I was just thinking about the other day, Melinda, which was a client that I was working with in a previous role I had. I was working internally as a coach for a company, and I had a client who was assigned to me who had actually been

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Julia Wojnar: had prior experience working with our company, before my time there. So, I went in to work with this client, and didn't receive any background

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Julia Wojnar: As to his prior experience with our company, didn't know about that, and… and walked into the engagement with him, and right off the bat.

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Julia Wojnar: This… this individual seemed to be getting very visibly angry, with me, it seems, in our first meeting, because he felt that there was a misalignment in what he was expecting and what

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Julia Wojnar: was what I was there to do and to deliver. And essentially it came down to what he felt was a miscommunication on being sold a done-for-you solution, when really we were coaching in a done-with-you manner, and…

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Julia Wojnar: Didn't really want to… Be accountable or to accept responsibility for

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Julia Wojnar: Taking part in the process of what would need to happen to help him get those results.

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Julia Wojnar: So we, we did have really a tough first meeting, and…

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Julia Wojnar: Honestly, Melinda, when I… I think about it.

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Julia Wojnar: I reacted as well in that moment, because I felt my own emotions almost getting triggered within me.

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Melinda Lee: Oh my gosh! I mean, this is your new, like, you're just starting off here, right? So I can imagine you're normal, you're human, just getting triggered, right?

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Julia Wojnar: Yeah, and it… because I… I could see… I felt that the anger that I perceived as being pointed towards me was.

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Julia Wojnar: of it misdirected, because I had never worked with this individual before, like, we… this is a brand new relationship, for us.

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Julia Wojnar: And so I… I felt it was misguided, and my… my reaction felt… I felt that I was disrespected in that moment.

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Julia Wojnar: I felt myself kind of getting triggered and… and feeling like I was not being listened to when I was just there trying to do my job, and so…

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Melinda Lee: I…

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Julia Wojnar: I sort of said in that moment, look, you know, you can… you can either listen and try to…

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Julia Wojnar: Get what you came here for, and what you've paid for, or we can just get off this call now, because.

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Julia Wojnar: If you don't want to do that, then…

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Julia Wojnar: we'd just be wasting our time. And…

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Julia Wojnar: with that, I think he kind of took a breath and took a step back and realized that

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Julia Wojnar: staying angry, in that moment wasn't allowing him to… to really hear or receive anything that I had to say, or could have been, I think, anyone else in that moment. Just in that state, he was not able to hear, what

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Julia Wojnar: what needed to be done, in order to move forward. So we need to really just kind of take a step back and assess

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Julia Wojnar: What, you know, what had happened before, and what we were going to do differently moving forward.

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Julia Wojnar: In order to help him get that new result. And, it really took everything I had in that moment, just.

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Melinda Lee: to try to maintain my composure, but…

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Julia Wojnar: it's… it's a lesson that I use all the time in working with clients, is as a leader, we… we have to

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Julia Wojnar: Recognize and also self-regulate ourselves, because if we are…

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Julia Wojnar: Expected to, you know, if we have team members and others looking to us to guide them, and yet

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Julia Wojnar: We don't, you know, we're being very reactive and not creating a culture of

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Julia Wojnar: Safety for the people that we work with, then that's where a lot of, you know, conflict and misalignment can come through.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, no, I so appreciate that story, because…

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Melinda Lee: we are going through a lot. I think everybody's going through so much, and so many different changes, and things that are unexpected, and so for that gentleman.

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Melinda Lee: he thought something, he got sold something, and he expected one thing, but it really wasn't. And so at that point, he had a choice, like, to lash out, to get angry. You know, he had a couple different choices, like, how is he going to react?

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Melinda Lee: And behave in that moment. And he chose to get angry, or maybe he couldn't help it, because he was so disappointed because of the… but the previous… it was the previous interaction.

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Melinda Lee: And so that's quite interesting. How many times are we coming into a situation that isn't what we expected, and we're taking it out on the current situation because of the past situation?

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Julia Wojnar: Right. And of course, you know, for myself in that moment, I… Yeah.

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Julia Wojnar: I could only control myself and what I Right.

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Julia Wojnar: You know, whatever had been done before with others whom

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Julia Wojnar: I didn't even know about, or had prior experience working with. Unfortunately, that, you know, did show up for that individual in that moment, but, just like I say to my clients all the time, no matter what

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Julia Wojnar: may be going on externally in our environment. The only people we can ultimately really control is ourselves, and so…

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Melinda Lee: Right.

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Julia Wojnar: I just try to always come back to what… what can I change within myself, or in how I'm showing up right now, in order to try to get the best result that we can?

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah, like, you… and just for you, from your perspective, you came into it, yes, it didn't go what you thought, it didn't go like what you thought was going to happen, and so, like, how did you… you know, you took the high road, you stayed grounded, you didn't go down there with him and got angry with him.

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Melinda Lee: You, you, you maintain composure.

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Julia Wojnar: Yes, and believe me, I recognize that it's not always that easy, it's really…

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Julia Wojnar: a lot for me as well, but there was that, you know, internal self-talk that I was… had going on for myself, even despite feeling, you know, possibly disrespected or not.

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Melinda Lee: Oh, yeah.

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Julia Wojnar: moment, I just had to tell myself, you know, how… how do I want this to end up? And…

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Melinda Lee: Right. Yay.

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Julia Wojnar: what?

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Julia Wojnar: what would I want this… this client to say about me and about how I showed up?

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Melinda Lee: Right.

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Julia Wojnar: In that moment, despite what… whatever had happened in the past.

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Melinda Lee: That's good,

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Melinda Lee: So when you think about that, it sounds like you learned a lot. I mean, it was a difficult situation, and you did… you asked the right questions to yourself, and so you're able to navigate that. And so what would be…

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Melinda Lee: one advice that you would give leaders today if they are… one… what is that one golden takeaway? I think I want to ask? That if they are going into any situation that is a change, that is unexpected.

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Melinda Lee: And it might be really uncomfortable. What is that one leadership advice that you would give them?

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Julia Wojnar: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think the thing that I really took away from that, and I know we started off today talking about those different styles of leadership that people can have, and so, depending on how you naturally operate, different people are more or less comfortable with

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Julia Wojnar: Really facing their emotions, the emotions that come up with their teams, and in having

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Julia Wojnar: open and honest discussions about that, but I think that's… that's so important to realize that in any work we do, again, we… we bring our whole selves to that, and so we can't ignore emotions, when we go through a change, because they… they do play a role,

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Julia Wojnar: And instead, just kind of recognizing that, and as leaders, helping everyone to

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Julia Wojnar: work with those, rather than trying to push them down. And, I think that also helps us to

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Julia Wojnar: Really attempt to keep our organizations, as feeling like a place where people can come and have that sense of trust and belonging, which, unfortunately, these days is

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Julia Wojnar: can be really hard to find, and I think that's where having someone like a trusted coach, really helps to have that outside perspective, because when you're in the internal workings of going through the teams or going through a company, you can't always see what

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Julia Wojnar: the, you know, the forest from the trees, what's going on.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, I really see that so true. I mean, it's time to reflect and go inward, and be in the trees in silence. Because, like you said, you can't see the forest through the trees, there's so much change, and so taking that time to go into silence

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Melinda Lee: Amongst the trees, how powerful is that? And by having an executive coach or someone to really be still with and taking that moment, I think can really help people propel themselves forward in making clear decisions when they just take that one time, that moment with you.

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Julia Wojnar: Absolutely, and I know for a lot of folks, who may feel like they're experiencing some symptoms of burnout, which…

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Julia Wojnar: Altogether so… unfortunately, so common for so many professionals now, is… is starting to recognize that and… and not, to really take care of them themselves, in order to

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Julia Wojnar: Of course, heal from that, but also be there in their best capacity for their Yeah. Because they're not…

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Julia Wojnar: gets ignored, then that, unfortunately, does… does have consequences for…

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Melinda Lee: It does.

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Julia Wojnar: As well as emotionally and mentally for everyone.

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Melinda Lee: Exactly. Exactly. It's like, give yourself the oxygen first.

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Julia Wojnar: God.

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Melinda Lee: When the plane goes down, give yourself the oxygen first, because otherwise, yes, the kids, nobody's gonna survive. So, if you're in that organization, constantly going, going, going, and then not really listening to all the internal signals to just pause, then sustainability is hard to sustain.

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Melinda Lee: So…

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Julia Wojnar: And I love what you said there, Melinda, about that pause, because I think that's really powerful. Sometimes if we just take a moment to… to breathe, and to gather our thoughts.

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Julia Wojnar: Then that truly helps just change our whole physiology to get us back connected with ourselves and think from a clearer place.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, and I think we work faster that way. If the goal is to work faster, smarter.

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Melinda Lee: and have faster change, I think the pause will actually support that, versus not… I think… I know the pause supports that, versus constantly going and not pausing.

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Melinda Lee: Is my…

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Julia Wojnar: wouldn't.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Melinda Lee: Awesome, Julia! Thank you so much for your time. I had a really great, time talking to you and learning about and just diving into all that is happening right now in our world. No wonder why there's so many emotions.

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Melinda Lee: Of all sorts that are happening, because there is so much change.

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Melinda Lee: And so, just now… yeah, just having that discussion around that was really helpful and inspiring. And so, how could people get ahold of you?

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Julia Wojnar: For sure, well, I know we mentioned, at the start of the episode today, the leadership style quiz for anybody who wants to, find out more about their own style and how they can best capitalize on that. That's at corpleadership.com slash style quiz.

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Julia Wojnar: And, as well, I'm also best, reached on LinkedIn if anybody wants to connect with me there and shoot me a message. It's just linkedin.com slash julia Wonar, my first and last name, and I know we'll have that in the show notes as well.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, great! So if you are navigating change, and really need some support, a time to pause, reach out to Julia, or take that assessment, learn your strengths.

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Melinda Lee: Thank you so much, Julia, for your time. Again, it was super fun.

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Julia Wojnar: Thank you so much, Melinda, I appreciate it.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, and thank you, audience, for being here. I trust that you got your golden takeaway. Implement them right away, and remember, anytime you have a conversation, you're also having a chance to connect.

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Melinda Lee: to inspire and to make a positive difference in the world. Until next time, I am your sister in flow. May prosperity flow to you and through you onto others. Thank you!

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Melinda Lee: Bye-bye. Bye, Julia!

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Julia Wojnar: Hi, Melinda.