My $1M Mistake and the Work Habits That Saved My Career

Welcome, dear listeners, to the Speak and Flow podcast, where we dive into unique experiences to help you and your team achieve maximum potential and flow, even when the stakes are high.

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Melinda Lee: Today, I have a leader with a proven track record of implementing technological initiatives and advancements to drive business growth. He is the Chief of staff at DDN, Ramon Lim. Hi, Ramon.

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Ramon Lim: Hi, Melinda.

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Melinda Lee: I'm so glad you're here, I'm ready to jump into this conversation, and before we do that, can you share what is exciting in the world of DDN and AI?

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Ramon Lim: Well, you said it, you know, two letters, right, one word, AI. So I feel like, you know, we're in a once-in-a-lifetime… I've worked in technology my entire career, essentially, and we're in a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity where things are moving extremely fast.

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Ramon Lim: I work for DDN, I'm the chief of staff to the CEO there. We are one of the leading data intelligence companies. Without

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Ramon Lim: data, you really cannot get intelligence from AI, so we really live in that space and add value there. So just being in this industry, where everything is moving extremely fast.

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Ramon Lim: where the potential of just discoveries, medical discoveries across the board, and all these different businesses that could just get to intelligence faster is extremely exciting to me. So that is the number one exciting thing that.

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Melinda Lee: No.

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Ramon Lim: I'm working on and I'm living in.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, I've got goosebumps. It's pretty phenomenal, it's amazing, and it's also scary at the same time.

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Ramon Lim: It is, yeah.

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Melinda Lee: so fast, and so I feel like that's probably where, hopefully, communication skills to hone them, to master them, will really help businesses.

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Melinda Lee: And so, you being in technology, in the industry for this long, and seeing so much growth, and now, working at this level as Chief of staff, you've learned a lot of lessons. I'm sure it was… did not always start this way for you to be where you're at, so can you share with us

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Melinda Lee: You know, the beginning, what happened when things didn't go very well? Take us back.

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Ramon Lim: Yeah, I mean, you know, to this day, you know, things don't go well, right? I can say that with high-level certainty, but maybe one experience that I'd like to share occurred early on in my career.

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Ramon Lim: And it was… it's something that… that sticks with me, and I still remember the lessons from that. So I remember early on in my career.

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Ramon Lim: I remember I was just starting a job. Literally, it was the first week of my… my start. I was in a function such that I had to work through influence, with a lot of different executives, meaning they weren't my directs.

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Ramon Lim: And I had to push efforts, strategic efforts and projects forward.

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Ramon Lim: So, that first week, the CEO of the company that I worked for set a directive to the entire company that operator… operating budgets needed to be slashed, cut, essentially.

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Ramon Lim: Each department got a certain reduction target, so every department was told to, you need to reduce 10%, or you need to reduce 20%. Our department got that number as well.

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Ramon Lim: So, one of my first… actually, it's probably the first responsibility of my job was for me to, get our reduction target for our department.

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Ramon Lim: work with the different executives by analyzing our system of how much is going to be projected to be spent for the rest of the year. What can we do to meet those targets, and then come up with some plans.

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Ramon Lim: Because in two weeks, it would be presented to the CEO. Each department will present to the CEO. So that was the ask, essentially.

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Ramon Lim: So, I spent some time analyzing our software systems to project what each executive should have in terms of a reduction target to meet our departmental budget.

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Ramon Lim: So, I communicated to each executive, and then that week, and then the following week, I work with all the different executives on coming up with the plan.

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Ramon Lim: Part of the plan included, we're not gonna work on this project, we're not going to buy this piece of software or hardware, and then, unfortunately, part of the plan was also, we're going to get rid of this team, we're going to reduce, you know, these people and these locations, and so forth.

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Ramon Lim: So I remember coming into the weekend, before the following week, which we were going to present to the CEO, I had all the plans in place from all the different executives. What I was doing over the weekend was

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Ramon Lim: essentially taking all these plans and then coming up with a PowerPoint presentation that we would present the following week to the CEO.

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Ramon Lim: And I remember very clearly that weekend.

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Ramon Lim: I was going through, double-checking everything, double-checking the numbers, since it's going to be presented, just to make sure that everything's correct, going back to our system and everything. To make a long story short.

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Ramon Lim: I realized that I made a fundamental error in what I understood the data to be.

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Ramon Lim: such that I gave reduction targets to the different executives that were more aggressive than it needed to be. In other words, they didn't need to slash as much as I told them that they needed to slash. And I remember I found this out, like, on a Saturday morning, and I was like.

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Ramon Lim: Oh my gosh, I can't believe that I made this mistake.

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Ramon Lim: And so… and so… It was very difficult.

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Melinda Lee: I'm just curious, like, so when you said, I felt… what did you feel in your body?

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Ramon Lim: Correct.

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Melinda Lee: Dread.

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Ramon Lim: I mean, like, literally, it was… it was dread. And I'm… I'm a very solution-oriented person, so I immediately jumped to, what am I gonna do?

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Melinda Lee: Yeah…

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Ramon Lim: That's, like, the immediate need. And so, some of the options played out in my head, because I just didn't really have a lot of time.

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Melinda Lee: Right.

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Ramon Lim: I'll say the number one option that bubbled up on my head, in my head, is like, you know what? Just…

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Ramon Lim: Just don't say anything.

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Melinda Lee: Right.

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Ramon Lim: Meaning, obviously, communicate it to my boss, right? But just don't say anything, because who doesn't want to go under budget?

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Melinda Lee: Right.

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Ramon Lim: Right? Who doesn't want to go under… now we have our… now we have a little leg room, so to speak, right? When new things come up, and then we could fund them.

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Melinda Lee: So…

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Ramon Lim: So, it'll be kind of like our little cushion.

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Melinda Lee: Yes!

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Ramon Lim: Don't say anything.

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Melinda Lee: Hooray.

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Ramon Lim: That was one option.

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Ramon Lim: And then the second option was

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Ramon Lim: You know, which really weighed heavily on me. It's like, you have to say something.

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Ramon Lim: Because this… these are mainly

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Ramon Lim: people getting laid off. That is the biggest operating cost that, that generally a company has. Yeah. And I just… that… to me, that was just… I… I…

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Ramon Lim: That was a major thing.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Ramon Lim: And the reason why the decision was so difficult was because of that, but also, literally, I just started. Like, literally, I just started, right?

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Melinda Lee: Ugh.

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Ramon Lim: I work with the different executives on coming up with these aggressive target reduction plans, and there was difficult decisions being made, because they had to work with their own managers in terms of cutting people, and I'm like, oh my god. It's like, my first two weeks here, and then I was like, oops, sorry, I messed up.

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Ramon Lim: Okay. So… But what I ultimately did was that I went with the second option, option B.

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Ramon Lim: Right, I can't I… I… I… I came clean.

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Melinda Lee: How did you… I'm so curious, like, so was it something… it was mainly the layoffs, you didn't… you knew that people's jobs were on the line. Were you thinking about it the entire day? Like, because it was Sunday, you have to present by Monday?

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Ramon Lim: Yeah, it was Saturday.

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Melinda Lee: Sad.

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Ramon Lim: I didn't… I didn't think about it the entire day to be… because… because, quite frankly, because I just did… we didn't have time.

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Melinda Lee: I am…

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Ramon Lim: Right? We didn't have time. So I literally… I sat with it for, like, 2 hours.

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Melinda Lee: Oh, okay.

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Ramon Lim: Right?

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Ramon Lim: But I think, I think it was…

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Melinda Lee: Did you hear, like, feel yourself going one way toward another, or you just kinda, like, you went for your gut?

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Ramon Lim: I think, I think, well, at least the kind of person I am, oftentimes, when we're faced with a decision.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Melinda Lee: we… I'll speak for myself. I always know what I'm going to decide.

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Melinda Lee: Right away.

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Ramon Lim: Right? There's… there's been many… I can't even think of one situation where… where you're, like, on the fan's toss, you know, oftentimes, like, you… you kind of know, but you kind of, like, needed some time for it to kind of, like, sit with you, for you to process, so…

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Melinda Lee: Right. When that happened.

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Ramon Lim: I already knew that I was gonna go with option B, the second option. I already knew that.

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Melinda Lee: Okay.

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Ramon Lim: But I needed some time to… to accept, right?

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Melinda Lee: Got it.

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Ramon Lim: You know, accept that, that this might look bad, I just started a job, I messed up, that's the difficult part.

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Melinda Lee: Right. You know, I wasn't careful enough. You know how we all beat ourselves up? Oh, yeah.

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Ramon Lim: So I think it's more… more accepting that… that I'm going to have to process this error.

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Ramon Lim: I decided within, like, like, 2 hours, like, pretty quick.

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Melinda Lee: Just because there's just not a lot of time.

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Ramon Lim: And then what I did is I, I, I…

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Ramon Lim: emailed… remember, this is the weekend, right? I emailed each executive individually, Right?

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Ramon Lim: I, let them know that I made a mistake.

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Ramon Lim: that I communicated that their target was X percent.

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Ramon Lim: reduction, but it should have been X minus 2%, for example.

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Ramon Lim: I mentioned to them that I understand this is a weekend, I'm not expecting people to, like, jump in, because there's a lot of plans, but

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Ramon Lim: because I worked with them over the week, the previous week, I had the benefit of some context. Now, remember, I'm new to the company.

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Melinda Lee: Great.

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Ramon Lim: I took a pass at what that, that,

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Ramon Lim: You know, what that new reduction target will be that's less aggressive.

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Ramon Lim: All right? Because I knew that I might not get all the information. We're still presenting next week to the CEO, no matter what. And so I did that. Some executives followed up, some didn't, right? But ultimately, you know, I put the presentation together, and then we presented. So… so that's… that was the situation, and that's what happened.

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Melinda Lee: And how did you feel afterwards?

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Ramon Lim: The presentation didn't go ideal.

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Melinda Lee: I mean, it wasn't horrible.

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Ramon Lim: Right? But it wasn't perfect, just because I didn't get all the information that I needed, understandably, because it was a weekend and, you know, people were traveling and, you know, having a life.

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Ramon Lim: Alright, but I did my best.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Ramon Lim: You know, my… I did my best, considering the circumstances, but…

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Ramon Lim: I felt like what sat with me well is that… I mean, I value integrity quite a bit, and just being honest, I think that's extremely important, because I've seen, I've seen that lacking sometimes with other people in the workforce.

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Ramon Lim: And so, for me, that's very important, beyond career progression or whatever.

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Melinda Lee: And, the fact that I just…

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Ramon Lim: you know, stuck with what I think was important, what I valued, I think that's what stayed with me to this day.

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Ramon Lim: Because I think that…

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, like what you said, like, beyond career progression.

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Melinda Lee: I think that most people, because they're such on the path toward career progression, that if they ever mess up, if they're ever wrong, it becomes so hard for them to even admit it, to acknowledge it, and then that's actually what I think damages companies, organizations.

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Ramon Lim: It does.

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Melinda Lee: I think it's just, you know, it's horrible, because then… but I don't know how people sleep at night sometimes, but I think that's just up to them. But I think what you said was so key, like you said, your integrity is that much more important to you.

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Melinda Lee: And you're able to, you know, willing to take on the responsibility of it, the repercussions of it. And what happened with the COO? What did the COO think?

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Ramon Lim: The CEO? The presentation?

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Melinda Lee: COO or CEO, or is it CEO?

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Ramon Lim: CEO, yeah.

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Melinda Lee: Oh, okay, the CEO.

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Ramon Lim: Yeah, the CEO. So, I mean, from his perspective, he's just getting data that's being presented to him.

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Ramon Lim: So he accepted it? He didn't know, no, no, and he shouldn't.

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Melinda Lee: Okay, got that.

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Ramon Lim: You shouldn't know the details, but what was difficult is that… is that I had to make certain decisions, and I think a lot of us at work.

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Ramon Lim: sometimes, you know, we have to make some decisions to move forward, and I made some decisions absent, you know, the, you know, the executive's input, just because there was no time.

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Ramon Lim: Right. So I had to do… apart from the damage control associated with… with correcting everything, I also have to do some damage control with the individual execs, and… and I said.

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Ramon Lim: I had to present something, so why don't we work together on maybe what we can change, or course correction, and so forth. So I spent some time doing that as well afterwards, right? And we did submit a revised version.

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Ramon Lim: To the CEO. So that was… that was a little difficult for me. Again, you know, it's like, oh, I messed up, you know? You know, I just started.

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Ramon Lim: But… but I think, I think for me, for me, the takeaway is that When we mess up.

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Ramon Lim: Right? We have to be realistic about it. We have to… we have to go into damage control.

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Ramon Lim: And we might not be able to, get to the ideal state.

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Melinda Lee: We could be far from it.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Ramon Lim: But we do our best to get to the ideal state, and then, very importantly, we move on. We move on from there. And then it's over, move on.

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Melinda Lee: And what about the executives? Like, what happened with you and the executives?

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Ramon Lim: So I think overall, and I say overall because there were a number of executives, there wasn't just a handful.

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Ramon Lim: overall, I think… I think this turned out to be a positive thing from, you know, because I… I stayed with that company for a while. Positive from the perspective of that some executives appreciated honesty.

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Ramon Lim: Because I think, unfortunately, sometimes in the workforce, again, that's… that's not something that you come across. And I think when people expose their own vulnerabilities, it's definitely something that, you know, messing up.

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Ramon Lim: and coming, coming, being honest about it and coming clean. I think it's something that all of us can resonate with in some way.

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Ramon Lim: And the fact…

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Ramon Lim: that I came and, you know, I just started, you know, being vulnerable about it. I think that helped

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Ramon Lim: elicit that trust. You know, I mentioned that I was in a role where it was really an influencing-type role, and it helped me with that.

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Ramon Lim: some executives, and I say for the most part, because I would say for the most part, that was… that was kind of my… the chemistry, but some executives were pissed, understandably.

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Ramon Lim: Right? And I… and I just managed through it, and I… what… what can I do at that point? Except apologize and so forth. But overall, I think it went well.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah. And I think that that's the best that you could do, is apologize, accept it, move forward…

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Ramon Lim: Move on.

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Melinda Lee: Move on, right, right. And then, so how do you think that that has helped you? Like, when things today, if there's a motion, things are not going as planned, how do you think that this lesson has impacted you today?

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Ramon Lim: So this happened early on, so I think…

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Ramon Lim: For me, the first lesson is that you… you have to stay true to yourself when you're making decisions.

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Ramon Lim: And when you're confronted or asked to do certain things.

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Ramon Lim: Because at the end of the day, you know, a job is important, but a job is just a job.

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Ramon Lim: Right? A job will not stay with you forever. You stay with yourself forever, till the end of your life. So… so you have to be comfortable with the decisions that you make.

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Ramon Lim: And being comfortable with the decisions that you make is being true to your values, because when you're not true to your values, you start to devalue yourself.

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Melinda Lee: I feel.

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Ramon Lim: And that experience has also led me to make certain decisions in my past of leaving certain companies because certain things did not resonate with what I valued to be important. So that was one big lesson for me.

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Melinda Lee: Right.

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Ramon Lim: The second big lesson was what I just mentioned about… about damage control, right? Doing everything that you can.

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Ramon Lim: But just realizing that you cannot If you messed up.

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Ramon Lim: you might not be able to reverse the whole thing, and that is okay, which is the third lesson that I take to my… to today. When I mess up, whether it be work or personal life.

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Ramon Lim: Move on.

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Ramon Lim: Right? Because what I… what I… what I experienced after that mess up early on is that you become a little fearful, right? You're like, okay, and slower, for that matter.

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Ramon Lim: you know, double-checking, triple checking, and then it becomes a little crazy. And especially me working in this AI space, where everything moves so fast.

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Melinda Lee: Yes.

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Ramon Lim: You… you have to move on. Just move on.

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Ramon Lim: And I think sometimes as individuals, you know, we beat ourselves so much up, so much. We're, like, our harshest critics. Like, we would never treat ourselves the way we treat our friends and our loved ones.

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Ramon Lim: And… and we just… we stay with it.

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Ramon Lim: So that's… that's something that I… that I took early on, and I… and I still struggle with it. I think, you know, I'm… I'm human, like everybody else, and… and messing up is part of life, and sometimes it's… it's a big whoopsie, right? And it's like, oh, right? And it sits with you, but the important thing is move on.

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Melinda Lee: Right. I think, especially in the executive level, because a mess-up can mean millions of dollars, and so then, of course, we're going to be a little bit slower, but I think if I've talked to all the… as I'm talking to CEOs, executives, I think they'd… they'd rather have you take those risks, they'd rather have you…

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Melinda Lee: Because you need to all do it as a team. The CEO can't be the only one. I mean, the CEO or the executives, none of them really know what they're… they're taking risks every day!

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Ramon Lim: Yeah, and everybody, everybody should take risks, because not taking a risk is costing money.

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Melinda Lee: Right, that's.

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Ramon Lim: Sitting on… sitting on something?

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Ramon Lim: You know?

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Melinda Lee: Costing money, too.

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Ramon Lim: And lack of decision-making.

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Melinda Lee: Right.

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Ramon Lim: Is that decision.

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Melinda Lee: Right. And it's costing money.

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Melinda Lee: Right.

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Melinda Lee: But the challenge is, when we're taking those risks.

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Melinda Lee: How do you know which ones to take, and which ones not to,

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Melinda Lee: So that you can minimize the risk as much as possible. My perspective on that, in personal life and also work… Yeah.

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Ramon Lim: is just a simple question. That's not super simple, but it's simple at least in one… it's a question. It's like, are you willing, or is the organization willing, if it's a, you know, a company thing.

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Ramon Lim: to accept the worst-case scenario. Are you willing Right? If you're…

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Melinda Lee: Is it worth it enough?

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Ramon Lim: Is it worth it enough? Exactly. And if it is, Go for it.

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Melinda Lee: Alright.

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Ramon Lim: If it's not, do a little more assessment. Get a little more data, because oftentimes.

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Ramon Lim: Decision making, which is a big piece of our everyday lives and everything, it's, you know, the key thing for decision making is informed decision making.

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Ramon Lim: How something becomes informed as you get more data.

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Ramon Lim: And sometimes, many times, actually, we don't have the luxury of time to get more data, more data points and everything, so there comes a certain point in time where you have enough data

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Ramon Lim: to make an informed decision such that, given what you're… you have in terms of knowledge and everything, you can make a decision where if it is the wrong one, you're willing to accept the worst case scenario. Right. And that's my perspective.

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Melinda Lee: No, I totally, I agree. Thousand, yeah, I agree. And I think with now, with AI,

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Melinda Lee: you can get all of that data so much faster, and even play out what are the worst-case scenarios, and, you know, and just play all of that out, and put that in, and get the data to make more of an informed decision. The challenge is all the other companies are doing the same.

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Ramon Lim: Yeah, that's why, I mean, that's why… that's why it's like, like, you know, that's why it's so exciting.

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Melinda Lee: It is exciting.

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Ramon Lim: Right? It's exciting, because… Because, you know, we talk about… Democratizing data, which means

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Ramon Lim: having… having access, giving access to everybody, you know, maybe disadvantaged people don't have access to the internet, for example.

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Ramon Lim: But now we talk about… what I like to talk about is democratizing intelligence. So, for example, you know, a lot of us probably, you know, all of us probably use ChatGPT or some AI tool in some way.

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Melinda Lee: Great.

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Ramon Lim: And if we're going through a situation that maybe requires legal help, for example, not all of us have the luxury of financial resources to engage a lawyer.

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Ramon Lim: And I'm not saying that these AI tools, you know, a lawyer will probably shoot me for saying that. I'm not saying that these AI tools should give you legal advice, and neither should people rely on this.

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Ramon Lim: But the point is that there's now some technology, some tool, where you can get a little closer, a little insight.

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Ramon Lim: Where, in the past, you wouldn't be able to. So that's why AI is so exciting, in terms of leveling the playing field, so to speak, and giving people access to intelligence across the board. That's what makes it so exciting, one of the many things.

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Melinda Lee: Right. It's not just data, it's intelligence.

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Ramon Lim: It is all about intelligence, because, you know, like, like, you know, somebody can give me, like, even before AI, somebody can give me access to a database with gazillion data. It's like, so what? That's data, so what? Right? But giving me a report, or giving me, this is my analysis, that's the intelligence part.

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Melinda Lee: And now with AI.

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Ramon Lim: You could just go much quicker now.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Melinda Lee: It's fun! I actually enjoy what I do as an entrepreneur, a small business owner. It's so fun, and I'm so glad you're doing what you're doing, and we have, you know, leaders with integrity, because I'd imagine everyone at DDN, with the CEO, you being the Chief of staff, you all share similar values, and I'm glad to see

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Melinda Lee: companies such as DDN on the forefront of that, and so it's exciting, and taking how we can use all of this and helping the community and our world.

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Ramon Lim: For sure.

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Melinda Lee: And so, Ramon, I have one more question. What is that one golden takeaway that you want leaders to remember if they're in a mess-up situation, or if it's just not going the way they want, or as planned? What would you… what advice would you give them?

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Ramon Lim: so many takeaways, but I think… I think one advice that I would give after a mess-up

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Ramon Lim: Is to stick to your values.

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Ramon Lim: And I would say, be vulnerable.

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Ramon Lim: And come clean.

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Ramon Lim: And just be honest about it, and be vulnerable.

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Ramon Lim: Because I feel like… many times.

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Ramon Lim: That moment of… especially if somebody's at a certain level.

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Ramon Lim: Right? Just being very honest about something.

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Ramon Lim: Right? Really, really makes an impact on people.

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Ramon Lim: And whether that person communicates that you made an impact on them or not.

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Ramon Lim: It's a… is a different story.

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Ramon Lim: But it makes an impact on people, and it, in a way, paves the way for somebody to do the same.

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Ramon Lim: And I guess the second thing that I'd like to share is also that if somebody makes an impact on you, a positive impact on you, communicate it to that person.

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Ramon Lim: Because, you know, I can remember many times in my personal life and in my career where somebody has made a real positive impact, and I still remember that person to this day, but I never really said anything.

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Ramon Lim: Right? So, communicate it. Communicate it. Tell them, hey, you know what? What you did in the meeting, or hey, you know what, when you said that, or when you spoke up, that really meant a lot to me. That really meant a lot to me, and I remember that, or something, say something.

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Ramon Lim: Because many times that we, we, we, we are so awesome.

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Ramon Lim: Alright, back to that beating yourself up, we're so awesome.

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Ramon Lim: And… and just tell somebody that… that they are.

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Ramon Lim: If you believe they are, if they maybe had a moment of awesomeness, tell it.

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Melinda Lee: Yeah.

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Ramon Lim: That would be my… that'll be my, my, my takeaway to others.

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Melinda Lee: Ramon, I am inspired. I just want to let you know that when I mess up, I will remember today, I will remember your very vulnerable, inspiring story.

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Melinda Lee: And I'm gonna do the right thing. Awesome. I'll let you know. I'll let you know. I'm sure you will. You might get a lot of emails from me and text messages saying, there it goes again.

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Ramon Lim: Happy to. We all mess up every day.

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Melinda Lee: all mess up, and I used to be more afraid of messing up, but I've gotten better, but still. Still not… still, it's a work in progress.

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Ramon Lim: It's a lifelong thing, and setbacks also. Also…

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Ramon Lim: set you back in that, too. So that's why it's important to move on.

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Melinda Lee: I'm so proud of my daughter. My daughter plays volleyball, basketball, and flag football. She's like, setback is a setup for a comeback.

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Ramon Lim: Nice.

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Ramon Lim: Nice, I like that, I'll take that. That's a nice.

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Melinda Lee: Comeback is a set up for comebacks. Nice. So, thank you, Ramon, thank you so much.

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Ramon Lim: Thanks for having me.

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Melinda Lee: Thank you, leaders and audience. I am… I trust that you got your golden takeaway. Implement it right away, and remember, anytime you have a chance to communicate, you're not just communicating, you're connecting, and also inspiring to make a positive difference in the world. Thank you, much love. Until next episode, I'll see you then.

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Melinda Lee: Bye-bye.

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Melinda Lee: Bye, Ramon.

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Ramon Lim: Bye.