An Examination of Charlie Kirk's Rhetoric

Welcome, dear listeners, to the Speak and Flow podcast, where we dive into unique stories and strategies to help you and your team achieve maximum potential and flow.

2

00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:26,379

Melinda Lee: Today, I am gonna share and talk about something that I've been thinking a lot about, and it's about the power of our voice. And when a person with a powerful voice leaves this world.

3

00:00:26,830 --> 00:00:32,789

Melinda Lee: Early, we have a lot of questions, and it also echoes in time.

4

00:00:33,140 --> 00:00:42,360

Melinda Lee: It's about Charlie Kirk. He was 31 when he left. And, you know, whether you agree with him or not in his ideas.

5

00:00:42,470 --> 00:00:48,700

Melinda Lee: I still often am wondering now what type of legacy has he left in this world?

6

00:00:48,950 --> 00:01:01,909

Melinda Lee: And so that's the conversation we're having today. And to dive into this, I have an amazing, accomplished educator, speaker. She has leadership expertise, over 20 years.

7

00:01:02,150 --> 00:01:11,070

Melinda Lee: She's also the Dean of Online Learning at Orange Lutheran High School. She leads innovative educational initiatives there.

8

00:01:11,170 --> 00:01:17,209

Melinda Lee: She also serves as a professor of organizational leaders and behavior, equipping leaders with success.

9

00:01:17,510 --> 00:01:22,149

Melinda Lee: She's a published author of From Striving to Thriving.

10

00:01:22,260 --> 00:01:30,219

Melinda Lee: Founder of Caravitas Coaching and Consulting, Dr. Joy Caravitas. Hi, Joy!

11

00:01:30,220 --> 00:01:33,869

joysmacair: Hello, thank you for allowing me to join you today.

12

00:01:33,870 --> 00:01:47,030

Melinda Lee: I am so excited and so grateful for your expertise. And actually, before we dive into the conversation, can you share about what you're excited about in your world, in your coaching, consulting world?

13

00:01:47,360 --> 00:01:59,720

joysmacair: Well, it's interesting because I have two worlds that I kind of walk in daily. I have my responsibilities at Orange Lutheran, where I'm working with students and the future of our world.

14

00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:08,149

joysmacair: And looking at how education is changing and how we, are approaching the way that students learn and people learn.

15

00:02:08,150 --> 00:02:19,809

joysmacair: And then I match that along with kind of what I do with coaching and consulting with adults and organizations who are on the other end of some of that. And I think there's a way that I get to merge those two.

16

00:02:19,810 --> 00:02:29,250

joysmacair: passions together, because adult learning is based on what we learned a lot as students, and with the way we learn changes.

17

00:02:29,250 --> 00:02:43,569

joysmacair: So much, and so when we're coaching people, whether it's individually or I'm working, conducting workshops at organizations, it's all about the learning process and how do we interact with each other? How do we continue to evolve and learn and grow as individuals.

18

00:02:43,570 --> 00:02:51,520

joysmacair: And bringing all of those worlds together, I think, gets to be kind of fun, allows me to do a lot of different things that I'm passionate about.

19

00:02:51,780 --> 00:03:06,199

Melinda Lee: Oh my gosh, and that's so important in our world, because we're evolving, people are evolving, and so the educational system should be evolving. And there was, but Charlie Kirk started off at college, I mean, meaning going to visit the colleges.

20

00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:23,170

Melinda Lee: And because he didn't agree on how the educational system was teaching, one of the things, he said that he didn't agree, he didn't think that the educational system was correct. And, so what was your initial reaction when you found out Charlie Kirk had just been murdered?

21

00:03:23,700 --> 00:03:40,039

joysmacair: So, I honestly was not extremely familiar with who he was. I don't… I'm not very politically driven, and so I… I had an awareness of who he was, I had an awareness of his…

22

00:03:40,070 --> 00:03:52,440

joysmacair: platform and his passion, but I wasn't, I hadn't listened to his podcast, or I wasn't familiar with any of his writings and things of that nature. But when… so when I heard

23

00:03:52,740 --> 00:03:54,210

joysmacair: the…

24

00:03:54,890 --> 00:04:07,579

joysmacair: The… my reaction was based on the reactions of so many others, and so many others who were really experiencing, a myriad of emotions, which made me kind of wonder.

25

00:04:07,580 --> 00:04:19,739

joysmacair: take a deep dive into who he was. Say, who was this person? And like many, I was struck by the fact that he was so young. He had a young family, and anyone who…

26

00:04:21,540 --> 00:04:35,390

joysmacair: it passes at a young age, and especially violently, that is going to leave a mark on the rest of us, and I think that we… that was one of the things I wanted… made me kind of more curious about what was that message.

27

00:04:35,390 --> 00:04:45,149

joysmacair: And what was he… why were… why was that reaction so overwhelming to so many? And so I did kind of explore a little bit more after that.

28

00:04:45,350 --> 00:04:56,740

Melinda Lee: Yeah, same thing with me. I've known about him, I heard about him, but I think that for many people, he's, you know, it's just gone viral, and there's so many more people that know him now.

29

00:04:56,840 --> 00:05:05,110

Melinda Lee: Because of this tragic incident. And so then, I started looking and diving deep… more deeper into

30

00:05:05,110 --> 00:05:16,830

Melinda Lee: the videos, the podcast, because, like you said, the reactions that people were having, my initial reaction was, I was, you know, sad. I was like, oh my gosh, his family, his kids.

31

00:05:16,830 --> 00:05:25,590

Melinda Lee: And then… and then I was shocked by, because of me being, you know, podcast guest and communicator, the… the power of his voice.

32

00:05:25,590 --> 00:05:45,210

Melinda Lee: And how he was able to galvanize the youth and so many people, and to the point where it struck a chord with the people that didn't agree with him, so much that he had to get killed. I mean, that, to me, was like, what the response… the power of his voice.

33

00:05:45,210 --> 00:05:50,109

Melinda Lee: Whether you agreed with him or not, he was able to galvanize a lot of people.

34

00:05:50,450 --> 00:06:13,130

joysmacair: It's… it… absolutely. It's funny, even in just, when I'm working with organizations or individuals, we talk often, and I'm sure you've done the same, about how words matter, and the way you speak and what you say, lives on, and it's… once it's out there, it's hard to kind of pull it back. And so, he was obviously very…

35

00:06:13,130 --> 00:06:21,039

joysmacair: astute and very well-spoken, and he… I think he understood that. I think he understood that.

36

00:06:21,320 --> 00:06:34,220

joysmacair: he had a platform, and he used it to espouse his beliefs and his strong convictions, but I think he understood that those… his words had impact, and that,

37

00:06:34,310 --> 00:06:41,529

joysmacair: You know, that they would… they would have meaning and go far beyond whatever he was speaking about on that particular day.

38

00:06:41,530 --> 00:06:44,889

Melinda Lee: Yeah, I mean, but he was young when he started, he was 18.

39

00:06:44,890 --> 00:06:52,340

joysmacair: Yes. Isn't that… isn't that surprising? 18… I mean, I think back when I was 18, I had no clue.

40

00:06:52,340 --> 00:07:00,450

Melinda Lee: Oh, me too! And so he had a passion, he had conviction, he wanted to make a difference at 18.

41

00:07:01,090 --> 00:07:19,100

Melinda Lee: So that's so powerful, and he did his homework, he did… he got all those facts for him, what he believed strongly in, and brought that forward. And one of the quotes that he says, is… and why he does what he does, is because when we don't… when we stop talking.

42

00:07:19,330 --> 00:07:21,359

Melinda Lee: That's when violence happens.

43

00:07:21,790 --> 00:07:33,279

Melinda Lee: So I think that's partly what fueled him. And so, do you think that he was truly engaging in the dialogue and talking, or was he performing?

44

00:07:34,230 --> 00:07:37,869

joysmacair: I do think he was engaging in dialogue. I…

45

00:07:38,070 --> 00:07:44,399

joysmacair: That being said, I do also think he is very confident in his own beliefs and his own,

46

00:07:44,530 --> 00:07:50,109

joysmacair: his own passions and his own ideas. I think he was confident in that, but he did want to…

47

00:07:50,340 --> 00:08:05,299

joysmacair: ask people about theirs. I think often when I talk with people, I talk about, we need to listen to understand, even if you're confident and you want to know a direction, especially, you know, I work a lot with, organizations who are doing change management and things.

48

00:08:05,360 --> 00:08:24,919

joysmacair: you have to understand where the other people are coming from, and you have to understand who's your audience. You know that. And so I do think that he was aware of that, and I know his voice was on college campuses, and I think he understood the impact of that voice, but that's why he was trying to promote kids and

49

00:08:25,130 --> 00:08:33,290

joysmacair: College students, adults, young adults, to think about what they were saying, think about what they would believe, think about why.

50

00:08:33,289 --> 00:08:45,770

joysmacair: why were they… how did they come about, some of these ideas, and not to just follow, even him, not to just follow even his ideas. I… I know he's had, what was that? Prove Me Wrong.

51

00:08:45,770 --> 00:08:55,590

joysmacair: And he would ask them to challenge his ideas, and I think that was part of… he understood the power of those words, and the power of words, on both ends, both speaking and listening.

52

00:08:55,680 --> 00:09:07,389

Melinda Lee: Right. The whole idea of Prove Me Wrong, I think even… I don't know what his intentions were, but the whole idea of it, I think that that was probably what caused the divide.

53

00:09:07,390 --> 00:09:09,120

joysmacair: Oh, undoubtedly.

54

00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:26,089

Melinda Lee: Yes. I mean, because you're gonna go into a debate, and just prove each other wrong, and try to prove each other's point, and then now we're, like, in a position where it's not… we're not trying to find common ground. It's like, who's right and who's wrong?

55

00:09:26,090 --> 00:09:27,350

joysmacair: I hear… yes, I hear that.

56

00:09:27,350 --> 00:09:27,750

Melinda Lee: Oh my god.

57

00:09:27,750 --> 00:09:31,440

joysmacair: I guess I kind of did it a little differently. Yeah?

58

00:09:31,590 --> 00:09:43,460

joysmacair: I kind of took… I hear you, and I think you're right from that perspective. I kind of thought, he is confident. I don't think he really wanted to change his opinion. I think he.

59

00:09:43,460 --> 00:09:45,410

Melinda Lee: His own opinion, no, he was not gonna change.

60

00:09:45,410 --> 00:09:51,229

joysmacair: Trying to change others' opinions and getting them to think through why they had that opinion.

61

00:09:51,230 --> 00:09:58,800

Melinda Lee: I totally agree with that, right, right. He does try to help them think through it, but because he was so,

62

00:09:59,020 --> 00:10:10,450

Melinda Lee: he was so calc… he knew what he was doing. He had a lot of strong tactics in terms of questioning and asking them to think it through, and I think that when,

63

00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:20,469

Melinda Lee: He knew how to guide them to the point where they could not answer the question, and they could not really clarify exactly what they were thinking.

64

00:10:20,470 --> 00:10:23,359

joysmacair: And then, so I think those were the viral moments.

65

00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:23,970

Melinda Lee: This is where.

66

00:10:23,970 --> 00:10:24,360

joysmacair: Tracking.

67

00:10:24,360 --> 00:10:27,189

Melinda Lee: I think those are the viral moments he was looking for.

68

00:10:27,730 --> 00:10:28,280

joysmacair: Right, yeah.

69

00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:46,020

Melinda Lee: Yeah, for podcasts. But, you know, it was also, for him, really important for him to do that. I'm not, you know, I think it's important for him, that's why he was so… and I started to look at how many people did he convert over? How many people did he actually change the minds of?

70

00:10:47,020 --> 00:10:54,580

joysmacair: Right, it's… it's interesting, part of, you know, our nation's a bit divided right now, and very…

71

00:10:54,580 --> 00:10:55,280

Melinda Lee: Yes.

72

00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,669

joysmacair: on two sides in a lot of areas, and I think…

73

00:10:58,860 --> 00:11:15,619

joysmacair: if we could have dialogue… I have… I go through two things. I think if we could really have dialogue and are really sitting down and interested in what each other is saying, I think that would help. But I think a lot of us, people are so set, and I wonder…

74

00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:17,490

joysmacair: Sometimes.

75

00:11:17,550 --> 00:11:36,580

joysmacair: why… why does it matter that other people believe the way I believe? I think for Charlie Kirk, I think his faith led that, and I think his… he was a very… a Christian man, and I think his faith was genuine in that he thought that would change people's lives if they, you know, understood more.

76

00:11:36,580 --> 00:11:39,819

joysmacair: But I wonder sometimes if… if…

77

00:11:40,250 --> 00:11:48,080

joysmacair: why are we so… why do we… we have to be right? You know, why can't we just say, okay, you're… we just agree agreeably, so to speak.

78

00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:49,609

Melinda Lee: Exactly. And I think…

79

00:11:49,610 --> 00:11:51,160

joysmacair: Sort of get along that way.

80

00:11:51,160 --> 00:12:07,749

Melinda Lee: Yeah. Right. We can agree to disagree, but I think the platform that he created proved me wrong, was not serving that purpose. It was, I'm right, you're wrong, I want you to think about it more clearly. And I think that it could help people that are listening or watching the podcast at home.

81

00:12:07,750 --> 00:12:20,480

Melinda Lee: But when you are at a platform and on stage with people, thousands of people around you, and then you're at the debate stage, he's not going to be able to convince that other person, especially if the whole goal is prove me wrong.

82

00:12:21,090 --> 00:12:22,500

joysmacair: Right, I think that the idea…

83

00:12:22,500 --> 00:12:25,400

Melinda Lee: the emotion of that moment. Yeah.

84

00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:32,060

joysmacair: the emotion of that moment, I think, can be more difficult, but I do think that, you know, he… he was genuine in his… his idea.

85

00:12:32,570 --> 00:12:51,440

Melinda Lee: I totally agree. He was genuine. I think he was genuine, and that's my, I think he was genuine. He didn't demean people. I don't think he was demeaning. He may have asked difficult questions to make them feel a certain way, guilty, ashamed, or whatever, you know, he did have some of these questions.

86

00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:54,910

Melinda Lee: And… and so I think that's… that's ultimately…

87

00:12:55,300 --> 00:13:12,430

Melinda Lee: what… he was able to galvanize so many people to be one-sided… I mean, we probably already had these inherent beliefs as a nation, because we're so divided, and that's what he was… he brought more people together. I mean, in terms of his mobilizing his beliefs.

88

00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:16,500

joysmacair: Right. Do you think that he… even those he disagreed with.

89

00:13:16,660 --> 00:13:20,089

joysmacair: That he genuinely cared about them and their thought process.

90

00:13:20,280 --> 00:13:21,310

Melinda Lee: I think so.

91

00:13:21,610 --> 00:13:25,430

joysmacair: I do too. I do, too. I think it came from a heart of good.

92

00:13:25,630 --> 00:13:26,500

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

93

00:13:27,070 --> 00:13:29,269

joysmacair: Yeah, I would… I would agree with that.

94

00:13:29,810 --> 00:13:35,089

Melinda Lee: It did come from a heart of good. Unfortunately, I don't know if he was able to convince them.

95

00:13:35,430 --> 00:13:36,240

joysmacair: Yeah.

96

00:13:36,550 --> 00:13:38,590

Melinda Lee: That's… that's unfortunate.

97

00:13:38,750 --> 00:13:45,519

joysmacair: Although I've heard, I've heard that, I agree. I mean, and some people you're just never gonna win over. You just never are.

98

00:13:45,520 --> 00:13:49,070

Melinda Lee: Especially on a platform, meaning, especially when you're the spotlight.

99

00:13:49,460 --> 00:13:57,849

Melinda Lee: Maybe if he sat down and had a heart-to-heart in the house without people, all the people looking at you.

100

00:13:58,420 --> 00:14:06,620

Melinda Lee: Then he could move something, he can help people see things differently. But because they're in the spotlight, it becomes something different.

101

00:14:06,660 --> 00:14:09,390

joysmacair: So, do you think the platform

102

00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:28,960

joysmacair: that the message gets lost in the platform. Is that what you're saying? I mean, because I think you could… you could be onto something. Some of these… Charlie Kirk is a good example, but even others who have a platform, and we talk about that, whether they're, yeah, anybody. Does the message get lost in that, or does it get confused?

103

00:14:28,960 --> 00:14:39,380

Melinda Lee: It, sometimes you could get confused, because you know there's the spot… there's cameras on you.

104

00:14:39,380 --> 00:14:40,559

joysmacair: Yeah, I think so.

105

00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:42,360

Melinda Lee: They, muddied.

106

00:14:42,920 --> 00:14:58,180

Melinda Lee: Money. Exaggerated. So he could exag… you know, take it a different… and then the other person will defend more. Like, if I'm… if I'm being questioned, and I don't know how to answer the question, I'm gonna defend my position even more.

107

00:14:58,700 --> 00:15:08,809

Melinda Lee: So I'm gonna really get upset at you, because you're trying to take me down, you're trying to prove me wrong, and then that's where a lot of people that did not agree with him got upset.

108

00:15:09,610 --> 00:15:12,309

joysmacair: It's… yes, and I think that's true, I think…

109

00:15:12,370 --> 00:15:17,150

Melinda Lee: I don't recall him getting upset. No, he wouldn't ever get upset. He doesn't get upset.

110

00:15:17,150 --> 00:15:22,749

joysmacair: I do think that made others who… Striving to…

111

00:15:22,900 --> 00:15:42,090

joysmacair: feel right, and that nobody wants to think that they're… especially if they're deeply held beliefs or their communities are wrong. And so, in that, that maybe is even what the original, quote you were talking about, people stop talking that violence happens. Maybe that's…

112

00:15:42,090 --> 00:15:50,740

joysmacair: Some of that, when they feel they have no more words to be able to defend themselves, they react differently, and that might be what we saw.

113

00:15:50,740 --> 00:15:51,500

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

114

00:15:51,830 --> 00:15:54,749

Melinda Lee: Yeah, because they could not defend themselves.

115

00:15:56,390 --> 00:15:58,640

Melinda Lee: And then… the anger.

116

00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:00,030

joysmacair: Yeah.

117

00:16:00,070 --> 00:16:01,590

Melinda Lee: fear, so…

118

00:16:03,060 --> 00:16:21,059

joysmacair: I wonder what that means for the way we speak to each other, just as individuals and as humans, because most of us don't have a large platform like Charlie Kirk had. And so, what does that mean? How do we interact with, just other individuals who may not always agree with us? I think about,

119

00:16:21,060 --> 00:16:41,479

joysmacair: some of my best, speaking moments, or some of those that I might… where I felt like I was really doing really well and in the flow, where usually I felt very confident about what I… I knew my subject matter, I felt very confident about where I was going, I felt really good, about what I was saying, but those are, you know.

120

00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:59,719

joysmacair: when we're talking to maybe 5 or 500, or 5,000, we really need to be able to think about who the other people are also, not just in how we're feeling when it's flowing, but who's your audience, and what is that message we want them to have, and what is that message we want, are we… and are we…

121

00:16:59,870 --> 00:17:07,639

joysmacair: Are we actually giving that message away to others, and when we're speaking and talking with people, and what does that look like?

122

00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:09,049

Melinda Lee: Yeah, I think that there was…

123

00:17:10,099 --> 00:17:26,119

Melinda Lee: Regardless of the position, I think we want to remember, and I don't… I was not at those debates, I think we want to remember and remind people that regardless of our differing opinions, I hear you, this is my belief, this is my opinion. And I… I just want to let you know that I respect it, we… you know, let's just…

124

00:17:26,449 --> 00:17:44,779

Melinda Lee: go on the basis of a shared respect for each other, and then be able to talk about these things. And, I think that he could do that in, again, behind closed doors, but I think when you're on a platform, and you're just trying to prove in positions and beliefs and…

125

00:17:44,929 --> 00:17:59,609

Melinda Lee: I think that that's where it becomes divided, and could have divisiveness and dividedness, because they're not, seeing how can we come back to common ground and move forward together in agreeance and agreement of something.

126

00:18:00,510 --> 00:18:04,530

joysmacair: I think that's true. I think the platform changes that. I also think that,

127

00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:15,979

joysmacair: even those who may have been in front of him in whatever platform he has, whether it's at a college or things, they're hearing one thing, but I think then social media…

128

00:18:15,980 --> 00:18:16,510

Melinda Lee: Exactly.

129

00:18:16,510 --> 00:18:25,400

joysmacair: the sound bites, and those then get spread apart, and I think that causes confusion… Right. …of people who were not there in the room.

130

00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:35,789

Melinda Lee: Right, and so I feel like the… exactly. So the sound bites that they were sharing, we were not there. The sound bites that they were sharing only showed him being right.

131

00:18:36,090 --> 00:18:53,319

Melinda Lee: And the other people faltering, and not being able to answer the question. So now, you're creating more people that are like, oh my gosh, Charlie's amazing, he's making, he's galvanizing, he's moving people, he's able to bring these ideas together, and then you have the other side who keeps on feeling defeated.

132

00:18:54,580 --> 00:19:11,460

joysmacair: Yes, and I think that you also have, the social media sites that disagree with him, others that are coming up and saying… picking out, words of certain things that say, this was, he said this, and this, you know, look at this, he's, you know, some of the names and terrible things he was saying.

133

00:19:11,460 --> 00:19:12,160

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

134

00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:13,740

joysmacair: Got it. So I think…

135

00:19:13,740 --> 00:19:14,360

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

136

00:19:14,360 --> 00:19:17,700

joysmacair: goes back into that, everybody's just trying to prove their own position.

137

00:19:17,700 --> 00:19:18,360

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

138

00:19:18,570 --> 00:19:22,279

joysmacair: And they're using not always the best means to do it.

139

00:19:22,700 --> 00:19:26,329

joysmacair: We really could get back to, as he said, dialogue, and stop talking.

140

00:19:26,330 --> 00:19:27,050

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

141

00:19:27,050 --> 00:19:45,279

joysmacair: listening, and really, I say often, I might have already said this today, you know, listen to understand. If we're really trying to seek another person's perspective and understand, where they're coming from, even if we don't agree with it, we can still understand it. I think we'd be better humans and a better nation.

142

00:19:45,590 --> 00:19:51,379

Melinda Lee: I agree. I agree. So what do you think that his legacy didn't leave behind?

143

00:19:51,660 --> 00:19:59,319

Melinda Lee: And what do you think that we should… what do you… in 10 years, what do you think that people will remember about Charlie Kirk's legacy?

144

00:19:59,550 --> 00:20:02,819

Melinda Lee: And what do you… do you think that we should remember?

145

00:20:03,860 --> 00:20:19,630

joysmacair: I think his… the violence of his death will always be associated with his legacy, and I think that's interesting to… you know, he was 31. If he had lived to be 91, would it be a different legacy? I don't know. We'll never know. And I think that…

146

00:20:19,740 --> 00:20:24,880

joysmacair: Some of that will be associated with, what…

147

00:20:25,010 --> 00:20:27,579

joysmacair: he left behind. I think that…

148

00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:37,079

joysmacair: for me, what I will remember is his passion and his confidence, and his conviction of his beliefs.

149

00:20:37,180 --> 00:20:53,909

joysmacair: that really inspires me to know what is it that I value, and what is it I truly am willing to, in some ways, die for, you know? Because since we have to think this man was essentially killed for his beliefs.

150

00:20:53,910 --> 00:20:54,800

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

151

00:20:55,050 --> 00:20:57,949

joysmacair: He had a different platform in which he was using them.

152

00:20:57,950 --> 00:20:58,980

Melinda Lee: Hmm. But…

153

00:20:58,980 --> 00:21:00,839

joysmacair: People disagreed with him.

154

00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:02,710

Melinda Lee: And he was killed for it.

155

00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:12,269

joysmacair: He was killed for it. So what do I believe in so strongly that I would be willing to do that? That's a… that's a heavy… that's a heavy question, so…

156

00:21:12,270 --> 00:21:15,260

Melinda Lee: And he actually knew it. He actually knew he was creating that.

157

00:21:15,620 --> 00:21:16,520

joysmacair: Right.

158

00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:22,759

Melinda Lee: He's warning his wife, if I… if I… something happens, this is what will happen, you know, I want you to take the business.

159

00:21:23,510 --> 00:21:26,199

joysmacair: Well, yeah, and did you see his wife's speech at his funeral?

160

00:21:26,200 --> 00:21:27,780

Melinda Lee: Yeah, yeah.

161

00:21:27,780 --> 00:21:31,859

joysmacair: I mean, I'll remember that. I mean, her willingness to…

162

00:21:32,510 --> 00:21:40,490

joysmacair: Take that mantle on, and to say she's going to continue on with whatever it is, and to forgive those around her, and to really just…

163

00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:47,030

joysmacair: And I remember, it seems like that was hard for her to say. She knew it was what she was gonna do, but

164

00:21:47,030 --> 00:22:04,259

joysmacair: It's not like I… she was fighting it. Didn't really want to, but was going to. It was… those were hard moments to watch, and yet I think that's part of his legacy, which goes back to the fact that he did, like you just said, he knew what the future could hold for him, and yet he was willing to con… he felt strongly enough

165

00:22:04,420 --> 00:22:12,239

joysmacair: About his… Beliefs and his… and his values that he was willing to… to continue talking about it.

166

00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:30,550

Melinda Lee: yeah, I hope that people don't just see it as he was right or wrong. I mean, that's… that's just one-sided. It's not… let's, like, get more nuanced about what really happened. You know, he was fighting her for his beliefs. He was passionate. He was convicted.

167

00:22:30,550 --> 00:22:37,620

joysmacair: He was able to mobilize the youth, and he was murdered for that. Right. And…

168

00:22:38,610 --> 00:22:55,589

Melinda Lee: And for me, I feel like I also will be reminded of the power of our voice, right? The responsibility that we have that goes along with it, with that confidence, with that conviction, the responsibility that you have, and how that impact.

169

00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,429

Melinda Lee: Right. And influence people, and then…

170

00:22:59,980 --> 00:23:04,840

Melinda Lee: Yeah, and that… I just… I hope that people carry on the conversation to remember that.

171

00:23:05,410 --> 00:23:12,910

Melinda Lee: And not just keep it like he was right or wrong, or that the country's so divided. Like, how can you learn from this?

172

00:23:13,080 --> 00:23:25,160

joysmacair: I hope that we can… his legacy will help us to look beyond that, just as you said. We can look to how do we dialogue? How do… how should we be speaking with one another? How do we…

173

00:23:25,170 --> 00:23:42,039

joysmacair: what… regardless of what… whether you agree with Charlie Kirk's belief system or not, how do we have dialogue about that, about the other things in our nation and in our world that, we need to be talking about that we could, that could be… we could do better?

174

00:23:42,220 --> 00:23:43,050

joysmacair: You know.

175

00:23:43,310 --> 00:23:43,980

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

176

00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:45,740

Melinda Lee: Yeah.

177

00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,340

Melinda Lee: Thank you, Dr. Joy. Joy, thank you so much.

178

00:23:50,340 --> 00:23:50,730

joysmacair: their money.

179

00:23:50,730 --> 00:24:07,199

Melinda Lee: Let's learn, how to use our voice, how to connect, because when we're using our voice, we're actually not just using our words, we're connecting. You can use it as a source of connection, of understanding, and making a difference in the world, a positive one.

180

00:24:07,550 --> 00:24:14,039

joysmacair: Exactly, exactly. Thank you so much for letting me come along and have this conversation. It was a… it was a…

181

00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:29,889

Melinda Lee: necessary one, I think. Thank you, me too. Thank you so much for being here, and thank you, listeners, for joining. I hope that you got your takeaway for today, and remember, anytime you have that conversation, just remember, you're also connecting.

182

00:24:30,030 --> 00:24:37,620

Melinda Lee: I'm your sister in flow. Until next time, may prosperity flow to you and through you onto others. Take care.

183

00:24:37,860 --> 00:24:38,670

Melinda Lee: Bye-bye.

184

00:24:38,890 --> 00:24:40,030

Melinda Lee: Bye, Joy!

185

00:24:40,030 --> 00:24:41,190

joysmacair: Bye!