Rethinking Privacy in the Age of Digital Identity with Joni Brennan | 018

Hello and welcome to another episode of The Know Your Compliance podcast. I am super excited today to be talking with Joni Brennan from DIACC. And now Joni is the president of DIACC. DIAC is the Digital Identity and Authentication Council of Canada. Joni leads the national efforts to advance digital trust in Canada, we're going to talk about what that really means. And she brings to that role an expertise, deep expertise, 20 years experience in digital identity with public, private collaborations technology and and Joanie is a known speaker on this stuff. In her role as Diane, she's frequently asked to talk about digital identity, so I'm really happy to welcome you to the show, Tony. Thank you for

coming. Oh, thanks so much for the invitation, and I appreciate the opportunity to share through the podcast. Thank you. So let's

start some of our list. Most of our listeners will have some identity, some idea of what digital ID is and some variant of what authentication is. But let's start with like a really kind of at the beginning. What is digital trust? What is digital identity? Identity? Where does this all play in the world, and how is it? Why is it important? Broadly? I suppose,

great. So you know, we've stumbled right into one of the most challenging spaces here, which is defining definitions. It's always, always a fun game and a continual game sometimes. So digital trust is really the collection of tools and capabilities that help people in organizations to have confidence in the digital interactions that they're having, so that that's pretty broad, and I and what I like about the term digital trust is that it's for me, at least, it's actually kind of more of an outcome. It's like an envisioned state that people, or people acting on behalf of organizations, are using different capabilities that are giving them confidence that it's going to be the same pattern, it's going to be the same things that they expect, and that is going to be the same things that they expect in terms of those transactions that they're have, so something out of the wild isn't going to happen that they didn't know. So that's digital trust. Digital identity is really a suite of capabilities for how people in organizations authenticate who they are, that they should have access to certain materials, to certain resources. They're representations of presenting who we are. And I think that the definition of digital identity, it really is challenging. It's confusing to a lot of people. It can mean a lot of different things. If we're talking to people in the industry in this space, then I would say that, you know, digital identity is something that we know, because we're thinking about things like authentication, credentials, authorization, like we in this industry know a lot of these terms as the things that we're talking about. But when we talk to people kind of on the other side, or we talk to people who aren't in this industry, when they hear the words digital identity, they might not know what to think at all, or they might be thinking something that it isn't, or maybe occasionally they are thinking about the capabilities that we're talking about in this industry, in this space. So I think it's a the definition of terms is something that is well worth visiting and revisiting as the context and as the spaces change. And I also believe that it's important for people who are in this industry, in the digital trust, in the digital identity, identity and access management field, that we also have empathy for the listener on the other side and make sure that we're kind of translating things that make a lot of sense to us as professionals, as practitioners, that we're translating into a language that is impactful and helps the person on the other side to actually kind of understand what it is we're trying to get at, and that might not be the same language that we speak to each other using

totally. No, absolutely. I mean, I think what I heard you touch on there, there's and we're going to go deeper on some of the misconceptions that that people hear around digital identity, because that's, that's its own can of worms that I think certainly relates to and is actually comes from some of that definitional problem that we're identifying because we can't, because digital identity is not one like clean sentence and can mean all sorts of things. It sometimes gets skewed into this whole political narrative around big government and all the rest. I do want to talk about that, not right away, but we'll get to that topic. I think what I heard you say, which I think was really interesting, is that at core, the goal of digital identity, authentication, diacc in general, is ensuring trust in all sorts of digital processes. And I think that, to me, is, I think there's nobody who who argues with that, but that is also super important for us to get right, because I believe it unlocks a bunch of innovation for our country and for our society as we do that, as we do that properly, is that? Does that align with your view of this? Is that where you think this ultimately leads us to if we can do this properly, or is it, am I oversimplifying or under simplifying?

No, I think you that. I think that you put your finger right onto it, and here's what I mean, even when I started, when I had the honor of being a part of the diet this organization, digital ID and authentication Council of Canada. The organization formed in 2012 i i joined it in 2015 and even. And for me, I was kind of like, well, it's an interesting name. Why is it digital ID and authentication? Kind of, how did that come to be? And I always kind of felt like, well, there's so many more things. Like, why didn't we talk about credentials? Or why didn't we talk about so? So if you kind of put your put your scramble brain to the side of those questions, you know, I think it gets at some of what I was thinking in, like looking at the name of the organization, but also what is becoming more and more and more apparent over time. And I'll speak only for me, because I think probably other people have seen this long, long ago, but I think the operating word there that's doing a lot of lifting is authentication. And I actually think the operating word that's underneath that is authenticity. Now we, we in the in the identity and access management space. We we talk about verification, validation, identity proofing. We have, we have all these terms that we use for what we're doing on, you know, is Greg, really Greg? Is this the Greg? I think it is, that said, the whole of the when you take the camera angle very far back, and you widen the lens, really, the whole focus is on, how can we whoever we is? How can we determine that something is authentic, that this really is that person who they claim to be, that it really is this company that's reaching out to me that I supposedly have an account with that it. But even even more so is that, is that picture really, that picture? Has that picture been tampered with? Was is that voice, the actual voice of the person that I, that we think it is, and so you can kind of draw that, confirming, validating, verifying authenticity. What is authentic? That is the underlying now, so I now really see the work that we collectively do as a personal identity is is a subset underneath? Is this thing authentic? Is this person authentic? So they're basically very, very similar patterns. Of course, people have rights and have, you know, expectations more so than things do, but that said, it's really the same set of patterns. And for people right, we have privacy, we have we have other things that apply, but the patterns are very, very similar, depending on what the subject is that we're trying to confirm the authenticity of so yes, I think that you nailed it. It's like quite a lot of places these patterns come into play,

yeah, and I think that's what, that's what draws me to the field, and that's what I find interesting, in fact, is that it requires thoughtfulness around what you're trying to get to is, to me, anyhow, like if you're trying to confirm the identity of the other person on the other end of a zoom call, there's a set of things you might do, but then there's a set of workarounds that you might do to overcome that, and then there's a set of things you might do to prevent those. And and it kind of becomes an escalation, a game of escalation. But I find that that whole that's a very creative process, in fact, to go and think that, think your way through that, and then layer inappropriate steps to to to, I think. Decade, ultimately, but done properly. And this, to me, is the exciting piece of the whole thing is, the more, the better we all get at it as an industry, the more we're able to do things quickly with with confidence and at high value transactions with confidence quickly, that's pretty compelling to to not have to go in and meet a lawyer to transfer title 20 years ago would have been unheard of. We're getting there. In some jurisdictions where we're there's some problems, but, but we're moving towards that. And I think, you know, just to use that my world example, I think that would be really interesting. So when we were talking actually, why don't we go to to what digital identity is not? Because I think that there's a common, well, common, I don't know, but there's certainly been some pushback against digital identity, and it comes in the form of, it's it's a government way of tracking everybody. It's a it's going to lead to a complete elimination of privacy. These are some of the knocks that we frequently hear, and in fact, there's been pushback in some provinces as we try and roll this out around that, can you kind of speak to around, I mean, steel man that argument for a second, if you could, but at the very least, kind of push back against why that's not really the goal of all of this. If that makes sense.

Yeah, no, it's a great question. I would say, in general, I'm the kind of person who typically does not deal in absolutes, like something absolutely is something, or something absolutely is not something. Yes, occasionally absolutes are important. But that said, there is a lot of room on interpretation. And I would say that the handle or the phrase digital ID, has become tangled in a shorthand of for sun, conjuring surveillance, conjuring The panopticon, the dystopia the world of significant surveillance so that handle digital ID has got wrapped into the grand, interwoven conspiracy theory ecosystem of all conspiracy theories, which, if you go deep enough, eventually they all connect into each other somehow. But, but that said, you know, every great conspiracy theory has some kind of element of truth to it. And in fact, you know the reason that I've been focused on the topic of identity and Identity and Access, management and everything that goes around it, I personally have stayed in this industry because I I'm motivated to protect people, to care for people, to help people so and I am also very, very skeptical, meaning that I'm I am motivated as a person, For the privacy enhancement for the privacy protection. So I think that's, that's an important, that's an important feature set is, is just recognizing that there is an element that tools, again, digital ID is kind of one phrase. It could mean a whole lot of things, like any tool, any tool can be, you know, tools are crafted often for a purpose. They can be extended and used for purposes you never even imagined. Some of those purposes could be, oh, extra benefit purposes. Some of them could be terrible. Now it's become a weapon, and we didn't kind of realize that and predict that in the beginning. So, like any innovation, you know, as you innovate, it's also important that guardrails are put in place on those innovations to codify and to stop and to protect and to mitigate any kinds of risks. Will the ecosystem, people, stakeholders, always capture every risk immediately, most likely not. That doesn't mean don't try. It means you have to set some guidance and some guard rails. And, you know, I think it's a French philosopher, Paul colejo, but who said that, you know, when you when you invent, when you invent the the steamship, you have to invent the lighthouse, something like that. Basically, basically, the ship was a great advancement. They were crashing into coasts, and then they said, Oh, maybe we should put a light here and show people that the coast is there. So you have to, as with any innovation, it can come with good and it can come with bad. And. You need those guardrails to stop the bad from happening. Now, I will also say, though, at the same time, and this is me speaking personally, my own experience. I'm surveilled all the time, every day. I don't like it. I don't want it, you know. And this is more of the marketing. Let's face it, the Internet was built on advertising and marketing, and that ecosystem has focused on other sets of priorities that has created a feeling of a reality of, you know, things like cookies being trapped all over the internet, you know. So, so we already live in this kind of ecosystem, and collectively myself, organizations like diacc, the members that were here, everyone that I interact is trying to bring parity, is trying to bring put people in the center, their wants, their desires, their benefits, which is actually not what we have today. So we're trying to move from a um ecosystem that sucks up a lot of information, undo so about people already, and create a more empowered ecosystem that enables people to share and prove who they are in a more trustworthy and privacy respecting way. So I do think that we have to recognize that element of truth that these tools can be used for various reasons, which means all the more reason to collaborate on the guidance, on the guardrails on on how we collectively empower people with with tools like credentials, or make sure that innovations like technology that does document comparison and document analysis, like, is this? Is this a government issued ID? Does it show anything for counterfeit we want to make sure that those tools are developed with the highest standard of requirements that are protecting people, removing reducing risks and mitigating liabilities all the way through

no interesting it's I kind of chuckle to myself as I think about how the internet is taken away our surveillance rates, or, sure, our privacy rights, when I think, you know, pretty much every website I have I open right now, I'm I'm trying to sell they're trying to sell me something around softball because it's softball season. My kids are in softball all the time, and somehow the internet knows that. Internet knows that. And so those, those cookies very much, are real, and you're absolutely correct, I think.

And the funny thing there, I'm sorry, I have to say, the funny thing with that, that I always laugh at is you're already in softball. You're already doing softball. You don't need more softball industry conferences where you're a speaker on the agenda, you're going to the conference, and now your whole ecosystem is filled with advertisements for the conference that you're already going to. It's like, it's not working. Yeah, yeah.

This is, this is too late, guys, I've already spent the money. You should be focused on the next thing. But anyhow, let's, let's not make that thing better just yet. There we go to market the wrong way. One of the things you said there cued me to thinking about good or or implementations that have gone well or not well. And so we're in the process right now of integrating the BC Services Card into our remote ID verification, because the BC Services Card, as best as I can tell, has been a pretty good implementation of one form of digital authentication. Can you speak? I mean, maybe, maybe you can't. I'm kind of putting on the spot. But can you speak to why BC Services or Alberta has done also a decent job, why those have gone better than, say, Ontario or Saskatchewan, and what the important guardrails happen there, what that looks like? You know?

Yeah, you know, I would be careful on commenting on any particular jurisdiction issues, but I would, but I would say that. I would say that in transparency, as somebody who's based in British Columbia, I'm a pretty big fan of the of the approach and the developments in our ecosystem. I think that the the way the BC Service Card, you know, you know that saying it takes 10 years to make an overnight success. I think the BC Service Card is, like a really good example of something like that. The movement started before. But I want to say, like around 2006 and that kind of really got into play in 2009 on the service card, recognizing that there it was a possibility that there were more care cards for health in BC than there were actual BC residents. And then it's something like, you know, there should there shouldn't be that kind of mismatch, right? So how do we bring whether that's a mistake or not? Or, who knows, but, but point being, yeah, there should be alignment there. And so, you know, taking the pathway of looking at a real challenge, we've got health credentials, we've got driving credentials, in general, they should be aligned. But that we see some misalignment here. What can we government do around that space, and how can we bring efficiencies? And how can we make this better for British Columbians? So kind of looking at that from that window, from that view, putting in place loads underneath the surface level of the water, in terms of different amenities and departments working with each other, the driving the service card, and even the thoughtful language that it's a service card, our driver's license says Service Card on it, it doesn't say driver's license, or at least, I think it doesn't actually check but the service card is a container for A driver's license credential, for a health credential, or any any other credential, potentially that you would want to have inside container. So the thoughtfulness, recognizing that you got to work with different departments, different authorities, driving being under ICBC, health, being under health service, under Services and and then doing that mindful work and underneath the hood and government, and then, and then creating a pathway for British Columbians to go on the cycle of the driver's license renewals. So, and I think it took a complete, you know, don't quote me, but I think it was like a five to seven year turnaround before everyone in the population went through that process of renewing their driver's license. And with that driver's license renewal, there's an impert. There was an in person ceremony, and there was and there was a question, do you want to combine? Do you want to put your health credential in this service card along with your driver's license, so you had a choice as a person. And then also, I say this basically memory, but it's also a question that said, Do you consent to future services to be made available to you through this service card? And now the type of person, I said, yeah, please make these available to me. I'd love to see them. So all of that took, took cycles and cycles and work and work and work that might have been invisible, and quite often when I think about the the pot of gold, if you will, like the real magic here, or one of the pieces of magic is that there is this verified, validated set of records for British Columbians. So we know who the British Columbians are. They have validated and verified themselves. Now it's like, how does what credentials can be hung off? How does that get into play? How does that work with the service card app, and how does that so now it's like, how do you hook things on the plumbing for how that verified information can be used? I have seen how people can use that verified information for their needs. I have seen jurisdictions, you know, sometimes there's a focus very heavily on the credential as the the shining, the shiny object to deliver, or even the wallet, a wallet as a shiny object to deliver. Certainly, those are powerful and important tools in the space. I've also seen that, you know, if, if a, if a jurisdiction is focused on the credential or the wallet, they may find down the line that, oh, we need to know who the people are to attach those credentials to. So there's like, a, you know, minus three, minus two, minus one, to get to the digital ecosystem. So, yeah, so I think that the it's really one of the things with BC, was the thoughtful time, the approach. It wasn't overnight, but having that validated database, having that validated set of records that you can then hang and hang things off of, because, yeah, I've seen it go in different orders, and that can be challenging. I also think that, um, maybe back to the other question that you asked, like, people aren't clamoring for digital IDs, you know, like they people don't want that. I mean, at least not that I've heard or seen. And in fact, you know what? I don't even know that people really want drivers licenses. They want to drive. You know if, if they're, if they're, what is it? 1819, if they're, if they're 19, they want to go into a bar. Yep. So so they know that. This thing of a driver's license is that gateway, if you will, or that that key, but they don't really the driver's license isn't that exciting. It's all the things that the driver's license lets people do. So So yeah, I think sometimes, as well, in jurisdictions or even in private sector, by putting this term, or this phrase, digital ID at the center, I think that can be confusing, because I don't think that's a thing people in general want, or know they want, because that confusion as well they want the Hey, can I get across the border faster? Can I get on that plane faster? Can I not drive to the lawyer's office to sign a contract? Like all of those things, are really the benefits to be promoted, along with the fighting of fraud and all those kinds of things. But digital ideas the center is not something that people are usually asking for. So, yeah,

no, this is actually really helpful for me, I think, in terms of sales processes. Frequently in my background, I used to be a realtor, still, technically AM, I suppose. But anyhow, and one of the things I often talked about was feature versus benefits. And when you talk to people about features, they don't care about features. You can say, Well, I'm gonna go do this marketing plan. And how about a sign on your lawn? Do the open houses, and the home seller says, I don't care. All I want is my home sold. So if you try, you approach it from a benefits point of view. Here's to your point. You're now able to cross the border fast. You're now able to get into the bar by just flashing your phone or scanning your phone or whatever the whatever implementation feature is used, and we start talking more about benefits, that that people can get, that that is powerful and useful, and I think, insightful, and might get us away from this, this digital identification backlash, that we sometimes, that gets sometimes wrapped up in the language. So that's that's helpful? Yeah, yeah. In my space, we a lot of and actually just one more thing I want to say on the BC Services Card. It just kind of because I think it's really important to call out. One of the reasons I think that it's been very good as a program, and has gotten better and better over the years, is the thoughtfulness of design around allowing people to choose what information they are and aren't sharing with who they are and aren't sharing it, which I think is a really important implementation detail that helps us get away from anything that's on the features side of things. But the benefit is that we get away from some of that loss of privacy that that is frequently talked about when we start talking about digital ID. Digital ID. So I think that's you mentioned the opt in nature of some of it and all that stuff. I think that's very important in my world. The reason we're using the digital identity, the reason we're part of diacc, the reason that all of this is really important is because we run, we help run anti money laundering programs, and ultimately, identity is at the very core of of a lot of AML efforts, or is certainly an important part of the AML efforts. But we tread very closely in that space against the big government thing. So do you, as we get closer and closer to digital identity being widely available in whatever format that ends up taking on, help me paint the picture of how that's actually good for people in terms of privacy, and what it's going to do for their ability to for our ability as a society to prevent crime, but from everybody's ability to maintain their privacy at the same time. Can you kind of help me with that?

Yeah, yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And you know, I think again, like a personal note here, I do think we always have to be honest about what these the benefits that our vision, the benefits that can be delivered while recognizing I feel like I've been knocking the internet as a tool for surveillance. But you know, the internet wasn't created with an identity layer, you know, I guess it was for IP addresses, but that's a very different thing. But so, so recognizing that there is an ecosystem of opportunities to be had and challenges to be solved, and they may not all solve each other at the same time, right? So like fixed, modernizing AML may not address the is Instagram, listening to me, kind of side ecosystem sure to be fair, that those things may or may not snap together. But the in terms of like one ex. Example, on privacy protection. I have a I have a male Specialty Pharmacy. And every year when it's tax season, they will, well, I will write to them and I will say, it's tax season. Could you do me a print on anything I paid on co pays, and then they always write me back with an email that says, For your privacy and protection, take a photo of your service card and email it to us. There are so many things wrong with that scenario that I just said, you know, one is the statement for your privacy protection. Take a picture of your government issued ID and email it to us. Those things just don't add up. No, there's in any way in there, yeah, a lot wrong in there. And and also the the theater element of by taking a picture of a card and emailing it, in no way says that I actually emailed it or proves it. Doesn't prove that it was me. Doesn't prove anything. It proves that there's a picture of this card, and it's been sent from this email address, right? So there's kind of an element of theater, and I know as well that the the people on the other side of that and the process on the other side of that have their own like tick box, okay? We need to make sure that it's actually the patient, and we need to protect ourselves from liability that we gave the patient information out to someone who wasn't them, so we got to show that we did a thing. So again, a lot of theater in there, all the in protecting patient information, absolutely, but, but the things that come out of that, the steps that come out of that don't actually do any of those things and don't actually solve any of those things. Now we have to be fair to this pharmacy. There are ways of solving this problem, solving knowing is this the patient on the other side? Is this really them? But that said, these capabilities and these tools are getting adopted at different places, out in the economy and out in the ecosystem. So it's, it's kind of happening, and in adoption is happening in very different with different rates of success and different rates of movement in different industries. So, but in terms of, in an AML perspective as well, I'm, I'm, there is a particular Canadian province, and I won't say which one it is, but they do require that. They require that organizations that are registered to operate in this province, that officers and directors share their driver's license to the corporate registry as beneficial as directors. And this province also asked for these drivers licenses to be pictures of them to be emailed. So I'm not naming the pharmacy. I'm not naming the province. What I'm saying is, is there are tools out there. The tools need to be adopted. There's a lot of education to be done. There's a lot of opportunity to solve these issues and to pull out you asked about protecting privacy. I think any ecosystem that's asking us to take pictures of driver's licenses and email them is not really protecting our privacy. It's trying to but it's not in the end. So in terms of something like AML, in terms of AML, we also, to be clear myself, Dayak, I think our members, I think we all envision a time when there are pervasively available options of digital credentials that are issued by governments, are issued by institutions, authorities, and then people can use these credentials with with options I want to present this one or this one, and the organization who has the responsibility, the relying party or the verifier, would also say, I'll take this suite of credentials. You can pick two from here and give me those right. It's very similar to what we do in the paper world today, when we have to go in and show a utility bill or show this or show that, we're starting to get there, but we're not fully there yet. So so these tools eventually will have a lot more capabilities. But that said, there are fantastic we collectively cannot expect a country, an economy, an ecosystem. We can't expect it to go from, you know, one to five in one hop. We have to kind of have. Help with what does it look like to step through those pieces? And I'll tell you, like in the in the AML space, and with collectives and advisory groups like the Financial Action Task Force helping to align on helping the the countries that recognize each other's AML to align on their ml regulations. There was a change, I forget which year, but there was a change relatively Tivoli recently, the words that were in the regulations were that a person had to present the original documentation, and that word original was changed to authentic documentation, and by changing that word from original to authentic, creates a pathway to show that a digital representation of a document can be authentic. Is authentic versus I must pass you this paper, or I must pass you this plastic, which is the original copy of that, of that document, or that, that identity card, or something like that. So, yeah, the the way that we live today is very is not supporting privacy. There are tools that are out there that are helping to step along, things like using photo ID capture, comparing it for known counterfeit signals doing liveness checks that a person, their picture on the card, matches who they are. Loads and loads of technology underneath that hood, combining that photo ID and liveness check with credit file polls and credit polls and signals from other areas around the economy. There are lots of different points of reference. There are many different points of reference and capabilities that are out in the ecosystem today, becoming more and more available that can help our economy and help our ecosystem and our stakeholders step forward. You know, from one to two to three until we get to five or whatever, that ultimate that we really do have digital tools that are trustworthy, that are guided by regulations and kind of all those things, but, but we're living that transformation right now so, so this is why our collective of diacc is so important, as we're helping communities adopt and we're seeing a lot of that adoption of these types of capabilities and clients and services in the legal sector who are at the front line of, you know, where fraud is happening, on signing contracts and verifiers of legal transactions in the loan sector, doing issuing people loans for cars on dealership sites and kind of anywhere where these high value transactions come into play. And this is using these tools as when people are remote, like not in the office, but it's also using these tools when people are in the office and comparing and validating them these documents as well. So we're seeing a lot of while Canada as an ecosystem continues to evolve to get where we collectively think we need to be, with diacc, we're focused on both the vision as well as the how does how do we collectively and our members help the economy go step by step through this transformation. AML is at the heart of that. So, yeah, yeah,

yeah. No, that was, that was great, I think, to pick up on a couple of things you said, One, fat for actually, two or three months ago, now, I'd have to go find the note. The other change that they're they're proposing, is that one of the indicators of risk previously had been not physically meeting somebody, and they're now suggesting taking that out of the indicators of risk completely be as they move towards this. Yeah, I saw that back in the spring as one of the recommendations coming out of the Spring Spring Meetings, I believe. But to your

point, podcast, but we didn't even get into B 10 and third party risk and all these kinds.

We only have so much time before we bore people. So, you know, the other thing that I think you said that was really important, that I wanted to pick up on, there was this idea that people emailing in photos or texting in photos of their ID and how that's supposedly to prevent fraud and privacy and ensure privacy and all that kind of stuff, when, in actual fact, it truly does the exact opposite, But it feels safer somehow, because it's what we're used to. We're used to this one little plastic card and in in somebody who's not thinking through how to create frauds mind that's authentic. And so why wouldn't I just email it to you? We're good. But if you look at it from a from a criminality point. Of view, it does introduce all sorts of problems, both because it is easy to fraudulently use it all of a sudden, and because now we're transmitting that information insecurely to without any sort of protection around who's going to receive it or see it on the other end, and that's before we get into the interception of that data. So I think, yeah, what I heard you say, if I could, if I could summarize it, is that old school isn't necessarily secure and isn't necessarily respecting privacy rights, and it just feels that way because we're somewhat used to it. I think is, is what I would want to echo back there

absolutely. And I do want to be ultra clear. I sent the picture. I have the pictures of the cards on my phone, so the period on the end of the sentence, it's not like, Oh yeah, and I didn't or I had some No, I did it because it was the only way to do what I needed to do, right? So, yeah, I'm also a client,

but you can, you can see all the problems with it, and you're keenly aware of them. Yeah, yeah, no, that's, that's helpful, yeah, I think, I think this has been really helpful, and I've certainly feel like I've learned a bunch here, and I hope our audience will get something out of all of that. Is there anything that you wanted to talk about from a from a diet point of view, that we didn't get to that you want to leave our audience with it all or,

yeah, thanks so much. I mean, you know, for first, first thing that I want to say and share, you know, in terms of the work of Dayak, you know, in talking about national approach, no, I'm pretty careful with that thought, even meaning that, you know, Canada is a collection of provinces and territories, and, you know, individual sovereign governments, governments working together. And so we're really, we work to be a connective layer, a way to share and amplify learning information across these different jurisdictions, federal, provincial, territorial, municipal, and really, for DIAC, what's unique is that we were creative, created out of the global financial crash of 2008 2009 so we really came out as an organization that was looking at, How do we make sure that Canada has the best participation in the global digital economy and that our tools and payments ecosystem is modernized, these things called digital identity or credentials or wallets, these are the tools by which to get to the vision. So we're really privileged and honored as a community to be the longest standing and the most diverse voice in Canada on this topic, and we're the only nonprofit forum that is specifically dedicated to digital trust and identity verification since 2012 so I'm extremely proud of the work that the members have done collectively and the work that we continue to do together to advance this space. Now that said, I will also say that maybe kind of a little bit to where we started. We collectively as an organization and individually, as members of an organization, all working to secure Canada's economic future, our economic prosperity, our economic growth. And in a time where the global order is shifting, the geopolitical landscape is shifting, it's more important now than ever that we collectively leverage the capabilities of our ecosystem to support one Canadian economy, to support, you know, pulling the millions and millions of dollars of fraud out of the housing market, to pulling the millions of dollars of fraud out of the lending market, to helping with new opportunities for small and medium businesses to get on board and grow, Whether they're in Vancouver or Toronto, or whether they're, you know, deep in the interior or way up in the Yukon, we're really an organization that's focused on economic prosperity and growth. That's the message. And how does, how do these digital tools for verification design with security, privacy and putting people at the center? And how do we work together and working together to reduce to reduce uncertainty and address challenges and risks? So if there's a takeaway, it's that we're really collectively focused on helping Canada with advancing in the economic space and the prosperity space. And I'm just so proud to work with this community. And I would invite any organization who wants to work with us or collaborate please, to reach out. We have lots of different ways of collaborating, and if you're like minded and you want to help advance tools that are secure in privacy, respecting for our economy and for the Canadian ecosystem and the global digital economy. Please reach out to us. We'd love to hear from you, and we'd love to see how we can work together. That's

awesome. No, that's great. I thank you for that. I, I we became members because we really see the value of what of the work that I acts doing, and it interfaces quite directly with what we're doing. But, but I would echo your thoughts that the more people we have in the in the community, the better, and we've certainly found it to be welcoming, and I know that we would do the same for anybody else. So so thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate being able to pick your brain today. I'm sure that we'll leave our listeners with something to something out of this. And yeah, thanks for taking the time.

Yeah, find us on LinkedIn. Let's continue the conversation. So nice to so nice to see you, Greg, thanks for being an amazing member, and I would bet we'll probably see you on soon. Perhaps sounds great. I.