Simplicity, Creativity, and Ritual | 093

Oh, Shiva. We have known each other for a long time, since we were girls, really. So it's so wonderful to be having this conversation in a public

way about creativity and the ways that you express yourself and use your voice in the world. So did you learn that that was important as a young girl, or did they come later for you? Wow, what a good question.

Just just right off the bat, like that's just still you.

We're diving into the deep, baby.

I mean, yeah, literally diving in the deep. It's like, I'm prepared for any question. But that one, I'm like, Wow. No, you know?

Well, you know, I grew up in Iran. I'm half Iranian, so I don't know if that was, like, as celebrated as, yeah, it would be here.

That's why I asked you the culture.

But I think, I don't think I had a choice. I think, like, if you're an artist, you don't have a choice. Like, I,

I, when did you know you're an artist? I

don't think I knew any different, right? That's the thing with artists.

It was just in your bones, in your cells, in your heart.

Yeah, I think ballet. I was obsessed with ballet, obsessed like ballet was for me. You know, that was the vehicle. I just wanted to be a dancer, and I was obsessed with all the bad all the Russian ballets, all the music. That was probably my entry into being an artist.

And I went through your body, so there was an embodied sense.

But it wasn't to be honest, to be very honest with you, I wasn't probably the greatest dancer, and it was more the all the things, the set direction, artistic direction, the clothes, the tutus, the music, which is why I became an actress later, because I think it's like all the things that

lead you to the theater Really, right? Those are all the things that come alive when you're in the theater. It's that world is the make believe world.

What do you love about the theater? Specifically? Oh, you and I, we could talk forever about this,

I know, and that's what I love, that we have that bond, I mean, and and people don't know, but you're also half and half, which, yes, which I think is.

And I lived in Iran before the Ayatollah. Yeah, my dad was training people for Iran Air, and my mom spoke Iranian. Sometimes she wore a chedore. Yeah, I'm, I'm part Chinese, Malay, Dutch, Indonesian, then part English, Irish, and it was a beautiful time. I was very, very young, so

I have sort of sporadic memories of that time. But, gosh, I would

love to go, incredible, incredible. I hope we do. I hope we get to go.

Oh, wouldn't be fun to do that together? I know that would be amazing, amazing.

But, oh, the theater so that, yes, we have a lot. You and I have a lot in common. We have our passion for the theater the arts, being from different cultures, food and then UCLA, of course,

where we met. Well, I remember seeing you across the quadrant and thinking, Who is that glorious, magnetic, exquisitely, beautiful creature, and then just to find out that your heart was even more beautiful. Thank you was a true gift. But we did really bond over our love for theater,

specifically.

And for those that don't know, I just got chills. We auditioned for a play that I wanted so

badly. And then you got another amazing role the following year that everybody wants it. You know? What was that play? The one that you did, the Greek the love of the nightingale.

Yes, Timberlake,

two were divorce roles for women. Two were divorce roles for women. I was so fortunate to get that role as a freshman two weeks into the term. It was quite extraordinary,

but you were great in that role. Thank you. That was a beautiful play. So yes, the theater, I mean, I grieve sometimes because I think, like, what's going to happen when the boomers go because, aren't they the ones supporting the theater? I mean, maybe in Australia, there's more of a theater

culture with younger people, but I really, like, get worried, like, where is because, like, they are funding, like these worlds. And, you know, I spend. So much time and energy at my theater in LA and Venice, and I would love, like, these obscure French plays by gira doo. You know that are, like fairy tales,

and you go into this little black box and you shut out the world, and you just play and make these worlds up. I mean, what could be better, truly, yeah,

and you don't need a lot of money, like, like, poor theater in a black box and imagination and good writing and great actors, and a willingness, a willingness, for the audience to be transported. And that's all you need.

That's all you need, exactly when I have done theater with, yes, nothing, and also huge budgets. And, yeah, right. It's just the heart that matters and the passion. But, yeah, I love theater.

And what do you love about food? Let's talk about this other thing that we have in common.

I mean, food is, you know, I I wrote about, I love you to read my sub stack because I wrote a sub stack about when I got awakened to food, because I wasn't. I mean, yes, in Iran there was beautiful food and ritualistic and gorgeous, and then my mom cooked. But it wasn't really until I was,

what's it called, recruited by a call girl woman, a madam.

I get, I gotta hear more about this.

I was in LA, you know, 18 at a party, and she recruited me to go on this trip with a chic on a yacht. Long story short, you have to read the sub stack. It's actually very funny. But her and I, Deborah, became friends, and she was older than me, obviously. And I remember when she said I

became kind of her assistant. You know, I didn't end up doing becoming a caller, of course, but I was like, Wait, you've been

holding out on me. I had to say that chapter of the Shiva story.

It's quite a story, but I so I would assist her. And she took me to the Santa Monica farmers market when I was 18, and had me, like, schlepping her bags. And I that was when I was like, oh, oh, wow. The food you buy at the market, the processed, you know, stuff they give us is not food. This comes

from the farmer, into the stall, into your hands, and then she taught she would teach me like she took it, she would take an avocado and, you know, squeeze some lime and sea salt, and, you know, put up some feta cheese, and, like, fresh, you know, peaches, like stuff with balsamic, like the eye, she blew

my brain. And she was this eccentric, you know, woman. I don't even know what's happened to her, but she was, like, my entryway into food. And I got it. I got that that made me feel different, you know, and made me feel better, right? You and I healed each other through our, I mean, our diets healed us.

Yes, we did, yes, and this love of the land and spirit is just weaving through you all the time. So when did that part of you get awakened?

Oh gosh, Tess, you are so good. I would say,

you know, definitely, I think the first time was in New Mexico, which I actually have a house in now was when I did a Native American sweat at the age of 20. And it was like a very arduous, hard, three hours long. You know, I remember you telling me about I told you about that. Yes, amazing, amazing. And then

didn't she tell you

to take your tampon out or something? Oh, my God, your memory isn't,

yeah, I just, I remember this story so vividly

because I was doing sweats as well, and we were talking about it, and you said, Wow, no. She said, to bleed into

the earth, you know? And it was just, you never

experienced anything like it, yes. And that kind of, because her, my connection to the earth after having gone through that, I really, you know, you feel like you're hallucino, you're hallucinating when

you get out. I mean, if you actually,

I felt, I feel like I do sometimes in sweats.

Yeah, you do them. See, I don't know if I have the Constitution anymore, to tell you the truth, I don't know. I mean, probably have a lit, but

you can do I mean, there's gentle ones and more full on ones, and it depends who's leading it, and what time of the cycle you're in. And you know, you know where you

can be very different, yes, yes.

See, I go, I get in my infrared sauna every day. So, you know, I really love heat. You know, you either love it, or you don't, right, or, you know, so no, but I do, yeah, yeah. Likewise, it really, I find it very, very therapeutic and very calming for my nervous system. And I don't find cold as calming

me too. No, yeah, not at all. And in Ayurveda, in fact, they say it's not good for women, yeah, all the time, yeah, they actually say that. But I would say later, when I was after a divorce last. And being in the earth and nature healed helped heal me when I was talking about that, well, I was

really depressed after a 16 year marriage ended, and then I was in a tumultuous thing with someone that you and I know from UCLA.

Oh, you and I debriefed a lot about that. Yeah, yes.

So I decided to take a break from men and just sort of process all this, which I think every woman after a long relationship should do. And I had a German Shepherd. I lived in Los Angeles, in the Santa Monica Mountains, and I started, I was like, Okay, I guess I'll hike. You know, that's what

people do. But it was actually such medicine for me to get it out of my body, the grief, like things get stuck in our body, and I'm not a big athlete, like yoga was always hard for me. You know, things like that are hard, but walking in nature without your phone, you've got your animal, and just like connecting

to the that was medicine got me. That started me too, on the path of connection.

And then how did that develop for you? When you felt better, you had that connection, and then you really leaned into that.

I mean, in a beautiful way, I was, I'm pre goop, I like to say and

I'm PG. I mean, we all like to say that pre, pre

goop, we were way. We were doing this stuff way before, right? Because we had to. We didn't have a choice, like it was life or death, like I had to heal my side to become my own medicine person. And I don't know if you know, but when I had my first daughter at 25 I was couldn't, could not recover.

And I went to a had this patch on my back, and I went to a dermatologist, and he said, Oh, you have to go to a rheumatologist like today. So I went to a rheumatologist in Beverly Hills, and he told after my blood work, he sat me down my mom and I, and he said I had a year to live because I had

lupus, scleroderma and rheumatoid arthritis, and it was like the combo of all three. Basically, it was like a death sentence, you know, and I had a baby. So I was like, no, no, this is not my story. So that actually catapulted me towards this. Well, not for a long time though. I was an actress, and I

didn't really. I dabbled in holistic stuff. I went to a Sikh Doctor instead of him, Dr saram Khalsa. And it's so ironic, because years later, I would become almost, I mean, I almost converted a Sikh. I became, went very deep into Kundalini, and he was the one. He said, I will make you feel better in one

year. So it was like those two different diagnoses, one from allopathic medicine and one from functional, more, you know, natural based medicine. So that prompted me on this journey that I'm still on, right? It's never, it's like an onion. I don't know

it is, and it gets sweeter and juicier,

the more you I wish I had a podcast so I could put you on it.

Well, knowing you that's probably coming down the pipeline, I

would imagine if it, if it speaks to you, if it does, right? Who knows? This is the thing about, about the the glorious incantations of you, is that this, I don't have a choice that you keep saying you really do listen to your heart and your spirit, and you are guided and led by it. Thanks. And that's a

beautiful way to be, and so we don't know, we don't know what you will do in the future.

I can't wait to partake in it.

Freaking Texas. I live in the boonies. Test.

I mean, who would have thought, right? But, but

you moved for love. I did. You moved for love, and

I've moved across the world for love, and I've moved to the boonies, you know? I have, I mean, just, I think that's the best

reason to move, yeah, I guess so. But it is like you said, you don't know, I don't know. Just listening, just listening and following the threads, the crumbs.

Yeah, there you go, yeah, the crumbs. So there's one thing to heal yourself and to go, yeah. This really resonates and speaks to me, and I'm going to be guided by my heart, and I'm going to do this for me, and then decide to build a platform and share and guide others. So take me inside of

that where you decided to start a website. You then, then you wrote

a book, beautiful book. I love your book. Thank you. Thank you.

What was it? What was was that it? I have to do it. Mostly, yeah, I

think so. I mean, the blog, you know, I was an actress like you, but when. Got divorced. I had to stay home. I couldn't, like, do these parts. You know, in acting, you're traveling mostly, most things shoot outside of LA and so I was, like, what I need to work? But I have these two little

girls, and, you know, so what can I do? And then I, and that was so, such early days. My gosh, I don't even remember, but like, it was so I think I had two people, you know, reading my blog.

Oh, same you and me. Like, was it your mother and your best friend? Like, who's reading this? It was my mother and my sister?

Yeah, right, and me. Always listening, always listening to your your work. But I had this guy, I don't know what happened to him, that he helped me build my first website, which was a disaster. It was like, not navigable at all.

His name was. We could laugh about this.

I know. It just doesn't matter, no, no. And it was such a, you know, and I was like, I wanted to make, earn money. Eventually, from this, I was like, this is, you know, I can't I have to, like, support ourselves and but I remember Napoleon was would say, you know, he always said, Just do

it. Just do it. Of course, you

had a web designer. Like,

I actually don't know where he is, but he was, must have been doing a bunch of positive workshops. He must have been doing all the what were the things in LA, like, est and, yes,

yes, there was that other one. I don't I

never did them, but I feel like he must, because he come to me and he'd be like, No, you're doing it. You're doing you've got a vision. You're doing it. I'm like, but there's two people. He's like, it doesn't matter. You put it out there, the energy and it will come. And he but he was right. I

mean, God bless him, because I don't know if I would have continued.

And then they came. They came in their 1000s.

The blog led to, you know, the wellness world, which you and I have been a part of for so long. And then the skincare line came from that. So it was like one thing led to another, and then,

yeah, it's, it's, it's been beautiful to watch. So with the book, what was that like for you, being a writer for the first time in a very public way.

Well, that's, again, a very interesting thing, because the years before this book came out, I went, I remember I was using a friend as an agent, and we went and pitched it to all these places in New York, all these publishers, and it was just like, nope, nope, nope. Too hip,

no. Like, all knows, door slamming in your face. Like, just, and, you know, it was kind of, it was hard, because I'd written all the synopsis and all the paperwork and, and I was like, Okay, this is not, they don't want it, fine. But then years later, like, then it's all about timing, right? It's all

about timing. It just, it started to I met an agent, and she was like, No, I love this idea. And then the first publisher, I walked into artisan

Leah, which is a beautiful publisher, beautiful publisher, beautiful books,

beautiful and Leah, as soon as soon as I sat down, it was like, she said. It was like, we knew it's like dating, you know, you know you're gonna meet the person, yeah, and it was just like, green lights all the way. It just flowed so easily. I mean, that's when you know, right? That's like, I

think when you do enough work, and you realize, when you if you keep getting which, as an actress, is hard, because we were raised as actors to soldier ahead. You know, you keep getting rejected. You keep

getting rejected. I mean, that is one really wonderful thing about being a jobbing actor, is that muscle of getting rejected is so flexed

and it is used every single day.

So, yeah, and that's partly why Gwyneth probably does so well because she, yeah, she was an actress. She's not, you know, she gets so much criticism and this and that and just, you know, blows off her shoulder, I think, pretty much. But, yeah, because of that, like, imagine you're rejected 99% of the time.

So you have to really build that muscle.

So then often, the rejection has nothing to do with you. 100% that's the other piece we know when we're on the other side of it is that it's about, oh well, we have somebody else who looks like that. Or, you know, that person reminds me of my wife.

It's just the dumbest reason. Love of a nightingale, though, I would say i

Ah, just kidding. I mean, I It's funny that you say you bring this up because it's so long ago now, but I remember I almost didn't audition for that. Well, I didn't, actually they, they chased me across the. Courtyard and asked me right because of some something I'd said in a

class or something. But I remember the day that the car sheet went up and, like, I was a freshman, I didn't know anybody, and all the seniors and the graduate students were all like, clamoring around because everybody wanted that role. And I remember literally going two girls going, Who

the hell is that bitch? Everybody just had claws and fangs for me. I literally retreated, and I disappeared, and I went back to my dorm room. I'm like, Oh my God, oh yeah, it was full on, so you're probably not the only one

holding on to it. No, I love it.

So, so you did the book and with a beautiful publisher, and, you know, it's gorgeous, and it's out there, and then it morphs into the skincare line. So take me inside that. It has to be me, because I mean to take to bring a physical product that is perishable to the market. Oh, that's, that's a

long, tough road, right? As you know, I'll never be inside of that.

But I remember, I remember your garage and all of the potions and the the jars and the you figuring

this out, and and so take, take me inside of that. It has to be me moment where you went? No, I'm going to do this.

Well again, it was, it was, it was, I feel like I was channeling. To be honest, I was doing a lot of Kundalini yoga, and I was doing it with guru jacket, who passed away, but she was a dear friend of mine and an amazing teacher. And I was very consistent, because it was happening in my canyon

with another friend. We would meet. And there was one particular day we did a two hour class, and we each three. There were three of us. We each had a download that day, and my friend Jennifer had the download to open a store in Venice called Pearl. And she did, yeah. Guru jugg had the vision to open

Rama, yeah, Rama studio. She did

my first message party, and she spoke at every one of my book launch party. She did the prayer. She did the prayer at all three of them.

I just got, Wow, another connection we have. It's crazy, right? I think we need to go on holiday together. Yeah. And then my download was, I was making this face oil for myself for about 1520, years from and at this point, you know, oils were blasphemous, like nobody wore oils on their face, like it

was just taboo. But it came to me in that day on a download. Oh, I need to bottle this up. I need to sell it. I need to have that. It's white, like the Kundalini vibes, the high vibration, the rose. It just, Rose opens the heart chakra. Rose opens the heart. It's my grandmother's name is my name.

It just, it all lined up in that meditation. So I just, you know it was the right again, right place, right time, because that's right when, you know there were so few lines like for me, I kept thinking I had to go to, like, granola hippie stores to find non toxic makeup products. There did. They didn't

sell them. I mean,

truly, and you were sending me home, you were sending me home with with little, little potions.

Try it. Tell me what you think it's like. It's fabulous. I don't want to waste your precious, precious stock here.

No, no, but that's my favorite part. Is the formulation and that, you know, it's like creating a story. It's like creating a story. But I realized there's so there were so few, like chic, elegant, non toxic. There was only Tata Harper, really, which, who, I'm sure you know, Tata Harper and

may Lindstrom had just started. So there was only those two. And I was like, wow, this is an this is like an area. There's nothing non toxic, elegant chic that you want on your counter. You know, that's not in some, like, strange bottles.

So it well, it is elegant and chic, and so you started with the oil, and it grew.

Yeah, it grew and it grew. You know, I was working out of my garage, which,

as far as do most people when they start a cottage business.

Yeah, I think I had read something about Helena Rubinstein. I don't I need to follow up on this. Maybe it's not her, but I remember reading somewhere where she was like, a divorcee mom, a single mom, and in the 30s or 40s, and she started making products in her bathtub in her apartment in New

York, and then, like, 20 years later, she had a dynasty, you know. So I think there was some like story that I was, like, holding on to in my head, and again, I could stay home. I didn't have to travel. I could drive my kids to school. I could, like, you know, make my own hours. And I'm not, you

know, I'm an Aquarius. I'm not good with like, structure. Like, I need to, like, be free. Like, go work. Go make myself a tea. Go work. Go listen to a mantra. You know. I. Need that flow, that more feminine, yeah, circular flow, rather than like a linear office nine to five. That just is so hard for me, you

know? So it was, it was an answer.

Oh, I love that. It was an answer. What was it an answer to,

to having a vocation that where I was my own boss, where, I mean, by the way, people who have their own businesses know also how difficult that is, because a you can't really shut it off. You don't like, you know, you go, you're thinking about it, even when you Yeah, you know. I mean,

you know very well, and it there's that, and then also the buck stops with you, right? Like, yes, people can mess up, like the packaging or this, or the shipping that, but then at the end of the day, it's me. So there are a lot of challenges. And right now, too, I feel like I'm a little like, what do I you

know, there's no one to go to to get you know, I mean, there's friends,

but now I know exactly what you mean when you say that as an entrepreneur and a solopreneur, even when you've got an amazing circle of friends and family and colleagues and even mentors and so forth, it can Be a lonely journey at times, and when the buck stops with you, and you've got to make

these decisions, and it's your baby, oh, sometimes it just it feels like you can't find your footing, and you're not really sure, and you just got, you've got to go. You've got to go in again, don't you? Right? Right? And find that I have to moment again. It has to be me, like, I have no choice. Moment that you

speak about, yeah. So what was it that kept you going in those challenging times as you were growing that business?

Well, I think a it's like feeling, you know, if I have orders, I feel compelled to fulfill them. So it's like my word, like honor, right? There's, there's honor and having your word. And maybe that's something that you know, maybe it's, I don't know. I feel like, is it a generational

thing? But I don't know, but I think it's a thing that we need to keep instilling, right? You can't just because, yes, it's, we could quit and walk away, but I don't know if that's ever that the answer to anything. So that kept me going. And also, I love the stories of these products. I mean, there's a story named

there's a product named fata margana, which is based on a play that I that was done at Pacific resident theater at my theater at my theater company in Venice, about this beautiful Hungarian woman, and she's like an apparition, which is what fat of Morgana means. But this product is like a souffle

barrier cream. And I've and I was like, Oh, like that. That's my favorite part. It's like creating, combining the ingredients with the story. So that to me, that that's like, I'm still acting right? I'm still telling us. I'm a storyteller. However, the vehicle has changed. So I think

that's my that's what keeps me going to be honest, the story.

Yeah, that really speaks to me, because we're telling stories in multiple ways. So we go back to your dancing, being in a story, with the cooking and the food. We're inside of a story. And telling a story, your books, your writing, your sub stack, being in the theater, being a mother, being a

woman, being a spiritual being, is the story. Keeps you going

the story, and also, I have to say, the ingredients too. I mean, there's nothing better than finding an ingredient that no one's really tapped into that is incredible, you know, like, like, there's just a part of me that nerds out on things and, like, tons of research on, like, an herb or a

peptide or stem cell or something. I mean, I'm not as I'd like to be more in like the plant world, not as much in the chemical world, however, that it's that's also so exciting, just discovering things,

yeah, the discovery and the endless curiosity, yeah. So what? What's an ingredient that has excited you like no other

well, bakuchiol, probably many people have heard of it's like they say it's equally as effective as retinol, but it's an Ayurvedic herb, so it does exactly what retinol does, but retinol, over time, can thin your skin and make you sensitive To the sun, whereas, like bakuchi, all does

everything retinol does, but it's not going to hurt your skin. I mean, that's very exciting. That's been on the market for a while with a lot of skincare people. But there's another one called Biden pelosa, which is also like a really unusual plant. So, yeah, these things and. Right now, I'm on a

Japanese kick. I'm really into, like, Japan and like, what they do with skincare.

I know, when you look at their skin, you're like, Yeah, I'll have me some of that.

Yeah, totally. I mean, the Korean thing is, like, a whole nother level, absolutely. That's like, too advanced for me. I just, I want to go, like, to old Japan, like what the geishas did, and, you know, the sake, the rice water, the Uzu, the hinoki, like, I just, I don't know what, who

knows. I'm following the crumbs again,

you know? Oh, yeah. Well,

I cannot wait to see what cake you make out of those crumbs. Wow.

You speak about Japanese culture, some of these Asian traditions, tea ceremony is a very big part of your life. Like, anytime I would say, Let's get together. Like, yes, come over and let's have tea ceremony, is

what you would say. Yes, I did. Oh yeah, for those of you

listening and not watching, she was pointing to her tea, picking up her teapot that is always nearby. Tea Ceremony is such an exquisite ritual, so beautiful. How did you find your way into that?

Yeah, that was, you know, through my sister Baylin, she it's a really, actually funny story. I I went to her house. I just saw her in New Mexico. She lives not far, well, kind of far from me in New Mexico, but I don't mind driving two hours to see her. She lives on the top of a mountain, and

she's got like, a tea temple up there.

Oh, I would drive six hours for that, right? I know

she's a wolf dog, like she like, like she really is, like, she's a priestess in like, the real you know, she is a priest. She's not, it's not for show. You know, she's living that life. So my sister Baylen probably like, gosh, like, 1314, years ago now, God, I don't even know, more than a decade ago, I

went to her house in Venice, and she sat me down with some other people, and we did a three hour tea ceremony. And I absolutely hated it. I was like, it was, well, three hours

no patience. Gosh, does tea ceremony teach you patience and allowing and surrender, right? And if you're not in that space today. Tees, everybody's gonna rub you up the wrong way. I mean, let's

just let people know they're not usually three hours. They're usually an hour, which an hour is perfect. But at that she had just started, and it was like, you know, we were just experiencing it. But I was just like, Oh, my monkey mind could not handle it. So I was like, Okay, I'm never doing that

again. And then, as fate would have it, there was a baby shower, baby blessing at my house for our dear friend, and we were doing tea ceremony. So I was like, oh, here I am again. Sit for hours, but that time, well, it was shorter than three hours, but that time, I couldn't stop crying because I realized

it's like a rusty faucet, and like, you have to get all that rusty water out before it runs clear, right? And it's like a meditation and the meta, and I was that, and then I realized, Oh, this is how I can meditate. Like Kundalini. It's very hard for me to just sit and meditate. I can

do it Likewise, likewise. I have to do mindful.

Mindful. Are you monkey? What's What's your Chinese, please?

No, no, I'm a, I'm an ox. I'm a water ox.

Okay, so, yeah, dissect that one.

Yeah, I would have thought you were more monkey. I don't know why.

Well, I've got, I've got, I've definitely got a monkey I can definitely have monkey mind.

Yeah, it's just that, like, you know, oh yeah,

because I'm a seven, I'm an Enneagram seven, you know, with a with a strong eight wing, and a and a one to one subtype. Like I My mind is constantly going on to the next thing, onto the next thing. So tea ceremony is really beneficial for me, because it just is such a beautiful

invitation to slow down, allow surrender, yeah, savor the moment, savor the flavor, savor the tea, you know. I mean, it's just an exquisite ritual, but you do need to surrender to it.

Definitely, there's many that do it in your around you, right?

Popular there? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I love that. It's, it's, it's moving its way into the mainstream now more than it was before. Yeah, we're not there yet, but, it is really beautiful, so you really took to that

I did. I loved it, I loved it, and I loved it so much that I studied and went to China with our tea community, Global Tea hut. And that was trip of a lifetime. It blew me away, because, well, I had never been away. Lot a long time because of my kids. The first time as an adult, I was away for more than

it was a two week trip, and, you know, I was on a bus with, like, all these stranger like, 30 other strangers with a backpack, like, you know, like China, it's not like, for the faint of heart, you know, yeah, it's like, there's no Google, there's no email, like, you can't, like, it's a whole nother planet. But

I really surrendered, like, that's the word I was able to surrender and really grasp, like, I allowed the tea to lead me and to support me and show me and because that's how passionate I was about the practice and and it was amazing. Most of the people on the trip were Russian, interestingly

enough, and it's like, amazing how you can connect with people without language. Oh yeah,

I love connection that transcends language.

How beautiful, like, how often do we get to do that? Not enough.

Not enough. Not enough. Yeah. The thing about tea, too, in China is the way they steep the tea, paddle the tea, the different temperatures to brew the tea, the ritual, you know, because I'm part Chinese, oh yeah, it this, and Malaysian too, yes, and Japanese. And you know what I mean? Like,

different matcha, different green tea, different black tea, different all kinds of tea. And you just go, Oh, this is a culinary universe in and of itself, like cheese, like wine, like herbs, yeah, you know, so. So you going back to what you were saying about that time when you went with Deborah to the

farmers market, and this portal of discoverability opened for you. And likewise with discovering these ingredients, going back to that metaphor, what was it about being on that trip with the ingredients of the connection that transcends language and the listening and allowing the tea to guide you,

and also just the practice of preparing the tea in and of itself? How was that a real turning point for you? That trip?

I think it, it showed me that I could, that I could, that I could do it to be honest, because I think we get so complacent in our lives, especially these beautiful lives that we are, you know, honored to have with the organic mattress and the bottled water and the ozonated bath water and

organic food and the, you know, the ability to

like, Oh, you're sad. He really goop now, my friend, I know,

but you know, you get thrown into, you know, a place like China, where it's like MSG in the food and and things that you cannot control. By the way, China is very clean, like I was expecting, like this polluted, dark haze of, I mean, maybe in the cities more, and we did spend a little bit of time

Beijing Shanghai, but the country, I mean, it was so clean, I couldn't believe how clean it was, the rivers and the streets and but so I think it really taught me that, you know, these things sometimes, like, I think being in the wellness War world and the biohacker, I mean, we get addicted to our stuff,

and we we sometimes may not think we can survive Without our, you know, our echinacea tincture and our MSM, MSM, sulfur. And, I mean, I certainly do. I rely on these things, probably like a crutch. And I'm being very honest, like I do, I have an addiction to my wellness things. So I think it was a very

good reboot to like, show me, oh no, you can live. You can be free.

Oh, and also be very simple, very simple backpack, totally simple.

Yeah, Yogi Bhajan used to say, travel, light, be light. And I think even though I know he's very controversial, I'm not saying, but he did come up with a few really good, good ones like that. So, I do travel light. I never check in luggage, ever, ever, ever. And I, I really try to like, you know,

it's so hard, but I really try to like, you know, do you travel light or heavy? I can imagine,

oh, I'm I travel light now for sure? Yeah, because here's the thing, I just realized that I wear the same five things in my suitcase no matter what I pack. So what's the point in packing all of it? I mean, it's a waste of time, right? And I mean, you know when I when I decided that I was

going to relocate to Australia, which I thought was temporary, I literally sold almost everything my entire life. Into 30 boxes now, and it is so freeing. I cannot even tell you. Yeah, it's so freeing. It is incredibly freeing. I'm very nostalgic. So of course, I came home, there's things from my childhood and so

forth. But, you know, I do want to ask you about this, because it's really been coming up in my heart as we've been talking. You know, the older you get you, but you, you become less interested in the Persona construction and more interested in the sense of self, and that it is a lot more simple, and can be a lot more

simple. And I find it incredibly freeing at this phase of life in my 50s.

I think the luck, I think it's luxury. I think the luxury now is to be simple. You know what I mean? Like, I think more and more like, I still, I look at my closet, I'm like, Oh, what do I need? All that, you know? And I believe me, it's whittled down, too from all my previous lives. It's still, it's

not as huge as it was. But I just think about, I think it's a luxury to be able to be have everything very simple and organized and curated. And I have a couple friends that I'm very envious of because they're so good at that, you know. And I don't know if I'm quite maybe the actress in me still is like,

well, that one vintage dress I still may want to be, you know, I still may want to be Miss Julie and like, you know, in my mind. So that book, you know?

Well, yeah. I mean, you do have the best dress collection of anybody that I know. I remember staying with you in the Santa Monica house, staying with you in the next house. And there'd always be somebody coming to the door to borrow a dress.

Somebody coming to borrow a dress, literally borrow a dress. And you do have a fabulous dress collection, but I want to ask you about going back to what you were talking about in terms of your grief journey after the marriage, and how that's dovetailing in my heart right now in terms of this sense

of luxury, because it was a very different life, you know, going to a lot of award ceremonies and a lot of shows and being in that huge elite crowd of actors and and all that kind of thing, to Your very different life in Texas now, and how that journey sits in your heart now, so now that we're years beyond that

particular part of the grief journey that lives within all of us, where does the joy and the grief sit in your heart Now, in your 50s, in this incantation of you?

That's such a beautiful question. And I think it's a work in progress. I do think, of course,

you would say that, I would say that,

well, I It's beautiful, I mean, but I think that that's what I'm striving for, is I realize, I'm sure you've gone through this too, when you reach our age. I always say we are. We are young. We are old enough to know how precious it is, and young enough to enjoy it. It's like this real perfect

moment in time, right? Because we can see where it's going and then, and we can see where we are, and thank God you and I are, you know, relatively healthy. And I'm like, Well, how many summers Can we go climb a mountain? How many more summers can we swim in the sea? You know, how many more summer?

Like, really, there's not, if you look at it on a chart, how many more? You know, there's not that many. So it's like, makes it so finite. So I really have been, I really want to have more joy that's been something that's like, my, my I don't do New Year's resolutions, but I do, you know, think about the cycle

in my life, and I really want to have more like hysterical laughing like a child joy, because I don't think that it's it's it comes to us as easily, you know, as it, as it, as it can and when you realize How finite it is. And I think this is why I mean, it makes me want to cry, but you and I loved

Hamnet so much because it showed us. It showed us that a art is imperative for us humans, right? Our art is imperative for our healing and just that, that, that, that, yeah, the sorrow, the grief, and the joy, how it's like, just, it's a part of life, right? And the Buddhists say, you know, they say there's a

Japanese form of Buddhism that I think I also, I don't know that I practiced for a long time, gosh, decades. And they say, simply, you know, suffer what there is to suffer and enjoy, what there is to enjoy, as simple as that, like, just like, just like, I know it sounds so trite, but it's so true. Like,

you can't escape the three sufferings, which is birth, sickness and death. You know, old, age and death. We cannot escape those so, so. For what there is to suffer and enjoy, what there is to enjoy. So I really want to enjoy more. I really want that's like my My goal right now,

what gives you the most joy?

Well, definitely this, believe it or not, because I I am so isolated now that I really love this connection, it really does fill my heart because, I mean, you take it for granted when you live rural, you know, and you don't have that ability. But I would say, um, yeah, I I mean, I love I'm

trying to think the last time I belly laughed. You know, like, when was the last time you belly laughed? Do you remember?

Oh, this morning. I mean, I have to do it. I have to have that full embodied laugh at least once a day. I mean, it is like an orgasm to me. Yeah. I mean, it's just, it's so important that full oxytocin rush totally and I will dance. I will do a static dance until I can get myself to that place. If

I don't find it somewhere else, you know, like I can, you know, I have a practice where I will find it from within. And often that's recollection of things, yes, but yeah, I'm my friend. Dr Anna kabeka calls it micro dosing oxytocin and dining from the oxytocin

buffet. And it's just so

important, you know, because we just have cortisol, you know, spikes all over the place from so many things that we're exposed to, particularly in the world right now, and it's just so important, yeah, so I laughing therapy. I remember the first time I did that, I went to a retreat in the middle of

nowhere in Australia, and there was

a laughing class, and everybody was just laughing for an hour, and there were people

coming out of the mud pit, and we had to all rub up against each other like animals. And it's one of the recollections, because I literally was laugh. I felt like I was laughing cellularly, and I was laughing from a soul place, and from that that child like play, going back to what we're

talking about with actors that we get to play in this safe container where we're not hurting anybody, and you can say whatever you want to say, you can do whatever you want to do. We don't get to do that in life, because people get hurt and we don't want to hurt other people. And that is something so

glorious about playing. You know, in a rehearsal space, you can be so brave and terrified at the same time and be making these discoveries together. But to your point about Hamnet, Gosh, what a glorious offering in the world that is on every level. She's a beautiful filmmaker, but exquisite

performances. But this, this idea, you know, you and I have had many conversations over the years about this, the power of art to help us see and be seen and beyond a depiction of grief and life beyond grief or with grief, because I don't think we go beyond it. I think we build a different relationship with it,

and that's why ending on that frame of Jesse Buckley watching him and knowing he is walking away, and yet he is with me. He is of me, he is above me, he is around me, right? I mean to me that last frame, it is the most perfect way to end in inverted commas that movie, because that movie lives within us forever.

That's the power of great art, right? I will be thinking about that, living it, seeing it, breathing it, drinking it forever, in and around my own experience of what it means to be human exactly.

You just put it perfectly, and that's why it was so touch. I feel like I said to you earlier, I think she's one of us, the director, yeah, you know, she's obviously deeply connected to nature. And I heard her talk about chakras, you know, and like, she's just, she's like, one of us, you know.

She's like, so in tune,

and she doesn't push anything. When you watch her speaking to the actors, you hear Steven Spielberg and Sam Mendes speaking about just servicing her and letting her do what she does as producers, when they're both brilliant directors, very different directors, and they're able to

elicit extraordinary performances out of people, as we have seen time and time again in their work. But with her, when you see the footage of her on set with these actors, I know there's a surrender there. Going back to what we've been speaking about, there is a surrender. And she talks about the co creation

aspect of it, where she recognizes. We are part of something bigger, definitely.

And that's what any great evidence in her work, isn't it, definitely. But great directors say, I mean, I think it was Peter Brooks who said, You rehearse, you rehearse, you rehearse, and then once it comes to the day of the opening or shooting, you throw it all out. Yeah, you throw it all out. And

I think that's probably, like, probably her work. You know, they did all the work and it's all there. You just trust it.

Oh, trust that's what I was just about to say. As you were saying that she trusts herself, she trusts the process. She trusts her actors. She trusts the script, the writing. I mean, oh, my God. I mean, we could, we could have done an entire episode about our love for having it so, dear listener,

if you have not seen that movie,

it's even the theater, if you can. Oh

yeah. Oh, I've been twice, and I think I'm gonna go again.

Oh my goodness, oh yeah. Like, it's Oh, I would

go with you. Can you imagine the two of us? We'd be squeezing our hands together and oh my god, like rubbing our shoulders up and oh my god, like I'd be passing you a tear from my eye. You'd be passing me one of yours. I mean, it's just

oh my goodness. So something that's coming up for me as I'm talking to you is this idea of practice and that we're in process. And this, this, this idea of practice and play and surrender and listening. And you do have daily practices that you anchor yourself to, and you share beautifully on your

Instagram and other places on your sub stack, which I want to ask you about in a minute. Actually take me inside some of the practices and what they do for you on a daily basis. Well, I

think, you know, I'm an Aquarius with a Gemini rising. So I think I'm naturally in the ethers, you know, in the air. So for me, I need grounding, like I need structure that's like something that really I need it to thrive. And having had children young, that was great for me, because it

gave me like I knew I had to have breakfast. This, this, this, you know, it gave me such a structure afternoon like, and now that I'm an empty nester, you know, it's been a little bit of a transition, because I don't have that, that schedule, really, I have to really be disciplined with myself. So

these rituals give me that, like every morning I wake up and I will do, I mean, you know, the phone is such a beast of a devil. Really, really. I mean,

it's like that toxic boyfriend where the sex is so good, but you just know you got to break up with him.

I know I actually was just saying La is like, a little like that. The last time I was in, LA was so seductive there. And I was like, it's like that beautiful woman who's so beautiful and just like, voluptuous and chic and stylish and and then you realize she has a personality disorder.

I like your analogy better.

You know, you slowly dawns on you, like, oh, oh gosh. She might be, like, bipolar a borderline or suddenly it like dawns on you.

Thank you. Thank you for my second belly laugh of the day.

And by the way, I love Los Angeles. It's like my home. But I do think there's something so you know beautiful about it that's yeah, hides it. So anyways, the mornings, I do love the mornings when I'm disciplined, I wake up, what I will do is have a little bit of water with sea salt lemon just

to get the body going. And then I should wait longer, but I don't. I need my tea like ASAP. I needed to wake up further, so I will make a few rounds of my tea, and I watched the sunrise, which I think is so important for our health, like the circadian rhythm. Like to watch the sunrise and the sunset is if

you can do those things, you know, and I it's free. Like, these things align your health, gets you in a better mood, like get your health better. The vitamin D, you know, mellow the dark parts of our eyes is is it's a melon we we watch the sun. The sun goes into our eyes and creates melanin and

melatonin in our eyes. So it is so imperative for us, most people do not get enough sunlight in their eyes. And I'm not talking about direct sun, you know, in the day, like I'm talking about morning, sunrise and sunset. So I'll have my tea. I'll watch the deer and the animals outside the sunrise.

I'll play a mantra, or I'll listen to affirmations. I'll try to journal, and then I'll do a little kunda. Tiny set, just like a very short one, and then set intentions, and that sort of starts my day. If I if I can do those things, I feel much better throughout the day. So and then it's off to creating work and

chores and things,

gathering your water and your wood. Absolutely there's no fire when you don't gather your water in your wood. Yeah, it's so true.

What? What lights you on fire these days?

You know, that's such a beautiful question, too. I do, I've been trying to go back to my authentic self. And when I go back to my authentic self, which was, if I look back on my childhood, it was like the love of ballet, the love of like classical music, the love of the love of things that are like I

feel like sometimes the European old world stuff doesn't, you know, maybe now it's happening. It's having its Renaissance, but I feel like that, like that lights me up. For some reason, I don't know the architecture, and I'm I do yearn for Europe sometimes. But what lights me up? Well, kindness, for sure.

Yes, kindness is like, especially because we know, again, we're all like, I travel a lot from Texas to New Mexico to LA and it just like everyone on their phones. It just bums me out. Like, I, you know, being an actress, I know you're like me. You love human behavior. And now with these damn phones, there's

like, no human behavior to watch. Everyone's like become these robotic felt, you know? So I do.

Everyone's got their heads down instead of their heads up, to actually meet the world and meet the experience and meet other people. Everybody has their heads and their necks down.

Such a metaphor, such a metaphor, right? Yeah. So I think acts of kindness. I mean, I've met a few people in New Mexico too. I've met a few older lady. I've just, I love striking up conversations with people that I think are interesting and that that lights me up and my daily and that's

something I can do in my daily life. Yes, in some ways, I fantasize, oh, I want to go to Paris and or I want to go to Venice and, like, walk for hours. But then, in reality, if I just go to my local grocery store and strike up a conversation with someone and have a moment of human, you

know, connection that makes me happy for the day, for sure,

and with the sub stack, what was that? It has to be me, that, you know, I have to do it. There is no choice. I need to express and want to express myself this way, because it is a beautiful sub stack.

Thank you. I'm curious what you lights you up, though, really quickly.

Oh, thank you for asking,

because I imagine it's going to be something like swimming with dolphins, incredible.

You know, it's it's kindness and honesty and presence, and people showing up however they're showing up today, whatever that means. And permission lights me up. Consent lights me up endless curiosity. I love that, that that's what I would say is, is, is curiosity really lights me up my own

curiosity, and when I meet and intersect with somebody else's curiosity, because we can't be sitting in curiosity with judgment.

Yes, very, wow. That's very profound.

So look, to be honest with you, Sheila Darcy and I spoke about this on the last episode, so it was fleshing that out with her. So dear Sheila, I will, I will credit her with with holding that with me last week, but it's, it's very, very true, and so just just paying attention without

judgment and just with a gentle curiosity, huh? What's that about? Does that interest me? Why is that rubbing me up a little bit? Why is that making me uncomfortable? Why is that making me angry? Why is that making me excited? What's going on there, you know. And you know, more recently, in the last

10 years, what lights me up is this ever evolving relationship with my body and with nature and the larger forces that I have discovered, and I yet am yet to discover, and that live within me, around me, and and inside of others. So, I mean, there's, there's a lot of things that light me up, you know. And so,

yeah, that's what I love about you, too, which is why I asked you about it. But no, thank you. Thank you for asking me. It's um, you know, you and I could dance under the moon forever, and the Sun and the Sun. It and the sun, yes, yeah, yeah, it's some Yeah. Look, and you and I will have many, many more

conversations. Thank you for how you show it's a glorious gift. And I have drunk from the well that is you for decades now. And we'll be drinking from

meet in person, though I know we really, we really do.

And I would love to actually meet up with you in New Mexico, because it's such a magical place. I've not been there in about 20 years, but I love it.

Please do. And that was the other thing I was gonna say, meeting with other women.

Oh yes, power and the camaraderie of other women community lights me up. Yes. Oh God, we could do another episode all about this, couldn't we, you know, but, but, yeah, I mean, it's, it's interesting. I was thinking about the other day, you know, we create community with shared humanity, not shared

opinions. Yeah? And there's something about being able to break bread with anybody, yeah, if we listen with an open heart, we will, well, that's why traveling, oh yes,

because you do that, right, you have to do that, yeah, or stick to it.

Hopefully, yeah, you do, you do it's um, yeah. I always close every episode with the same question, which is, when you have a dream in your heart and you don't feel like you have what it takes to make it happen, what do you say to yourself,

you have a dream in your heart? I would say

to really sit with that dream, because it can link you to another dream. It can link you, it can be a hint to something else that may be even more incredible and magnificent and able to achieve. So don't, you know, don't give up. Don't give up on yourself. Perhaps it's not this one, but it might lead to

something else, almost like me, wanting to be a ballet dancer more than anything. I mean, I used to beg God for hours, you know, as a little girl,

please, let me be a prima bar please. I'll do anything, anything, just, please, let me be a prima ballerina.

And that wasn't my destiny, but I my destiny was to be an actress, where I could play a ballad ballet dancer, you know, which is like, so we don't know what, what will happen. But just keep dreaming. Keep dreaming. Don't give up on your dreams, on dreaming itself. So I was saying, I mean,

I just like, I'm always living in the dream. Being in the dream state is just a yummy, glorious thing. And I feel like you live in the dream state.

Well, I was thinking that today, because, you know, my life is so I mean, I was it's not to be totally honest and truthful and naked with you Tess as not as glamorous here, especially where I live, you know, in rural Texas, and my, I mean, it's sweet, but it's not like glamorous. And I was

thinking that today driving, I was like, Yeah, but that doesn't take away from us creating that a glamorous, amazing, interesting life within our within the realms that we're in. You know when you're doing laundry, you know you could be putting on a beautiful opera and folding the laundry and imbuing

each clothing item with a prayer, you know, of devotion and and, you know when you're going to go to let the chickens out. I can, you know, I could talk to all the trees and the fauna and, you know, I can. You are the director, writer, producer, of your story, right? So, so may not be as glamorous

as you know, you once thought, but you can make it into whatever it is that fairy tale in the moment. That's what I've been really trying to, like, hone in on, oh yeah.

Like, it's so funny. You know, you know how there's certain words that are out there in the world, but you don't actually use them very often. Glamorous or glamor is not a word that I use very often. I think it's come out of my mouth four times my in my life. I mean, seriously, it's

just opened up this really juicy line of inquiry for me, as you're saying this, because I think about you and I, you know, I used to see you in all the magazines. You'd be on the red carpet, you'd be on the TV, and, you know, all the things with, you know, every major star in the world, kind of thing. And

yet, this life that you have now your heart feels more full and more alluring and sexy and glamorous. If I'm going to use that word to me, thank you and so I. I'm just curious about what your definition of glamorous would be.

Now, yeah, I think, for me, you know, I really, I think we have to cultivate it. We have to cultivate glamor, we have to cultivate sensuality. We have to cultivate, you know, so that's why, for me, like, even if no one is watching me, I'm gonna put on that silk robe and I'm gonna, you know, and I'm

gonna brush my hair, and I'm gonna put that rose oil in my bath, and

you're gonna drink your tea from the most exquisite piece of one of a kind pottery, which is what you do. I love your collection of pottery. It's so exquisite they're

not gonna wait until a special occasion. You're doing it on your own on a Wednesday morning, no matter what.

Yes, because why this is, and it's also about self, right? About loving ourselves enough that it's enough. Do you? Do you watch the show? Ever shits Creek,

okay, Shiva. I think I've watched

every episode about 37 times. I could recite every episode to you. That is how much I love that show. The fact that it's called Rose apothecary is so right in your world, right?

Well, my partner keeps referring to me as Moira rose, you know, and I think that's why her loss, this is so hard on us watching her, and that's like, what she does. She glamorous. She did not leave the glamor.

It's so true and and I mean, I look, I feel certain, knowing you the way that I do, you're gonna you're gonna say me too. But when I woke up, I thought it was 531 in the morning, when I woke up and it popped up saying, Catherine O'Hara has died at age 71 after a brief illness. Is what I read.

I felt like the ground had disappeared, and cellularly, I was changed, and the world was different, just like I felt when I woke up to Philip Seymour Hoffman passing. It was the same exact feeling for me, because the two of them, they broke the mold. But you know, they there is nobody else like the two of

them, you know, in very different ways, obviously, and not to take away from anybody else's light and talent and so forth. But for me, yeah, I felt. I felt, isn't it interesting how artists can make you feel like you know them, even though you've never met them or their body of work, right? Makes you

feel like you know their heart, you know the shape of their heart, or I felt like I had danced in the labyrinth of her heart and her soul for decades.

But when you talk about the belly laughing, that's she makes me belly laugh, that that character.

Oh, yeah. Oh, doesn't she?

Thank you. There you go. To do the belly laugh every day. All you got to do is put on shits Creek. It's true.

Or there's the now, there's complex compilations of her scenes. So that doesn't really, you know, you just watch like, 10 of her scenes of Moira and one, I

mean, really, that's the, that's the thing that YouTube is the best for, is the compilations. Let me tell you, I am, like, watching, watching shit creek, heated rivalry. I'm watching compilations like, I can't even tell you, I mean, just Yeah, it's such a great thread for you

to pull on there, because what a gift, and what a gift

laughter and comedy and and story is in general, you know, going going back to Hamner, where there wasn't many laughs,

and I found it just as fulfilling and the world Just as rich and juicy and beautiful, and I want to keep drinking from it. So, yeah, and then music,

Max, oh, the music, I know, I know the music is like, and I guess I read a new view, because, you know, I play, I serve tea to max Richter, to the that song, actually, yeah, that particular song, and she, I guess Jesse Buckley brought it to Chloe, and Chloe went to max Richard, he said, but this has

already been published, this song. It's not like, let me, you know, create, compose a new one. And they were like, No, it has to be this song. It has to be the song. And then when you listen to it too, you just like, of course, it's like, I know. I have chills.

I got goose bumps, and I love them. I actually

thought of you in the opening one of the opening frames where Jesse Buckley is lying like a cocoon, like a baby in the warm tree. And you just think, Oh, come on. Like, just how she was born. Of nature. Was of nature. Will give birth in nature will be and, you know, and I think that last frame of her, when she

recognizes that, and she returns to the source, to spirit, to her communion with nature and humanity. And Oh my Oh, my God, we could just dissect this all day long, right? I mean,

I know it's just, it's just,

it's what a glorious offering to help us connect with what it means to be human and the power of love and connection and hope. Hope as the antidote to any pain that may threaten to kill us, and especially right now, our desire so

much darkness right now in the world, like it's just bombarding us. And it's like an, you know, I almost feel like we have to protect ourselves, to protect our energetic field, because it's like, boom, boom. You know, something like that is even more of a beacon. Because I think we're just like starving,

we're like starving children waiting for this, you know, something beautiful. I mean,

it does feel like rain in the desert. Yes, that's right. And creativity right now, and it's very interesting that the dark forces want to extinguish creativity because they actually know that it's the antidote.

Of course. I mean, the Greeks, the Greeks knew this, right? It's like, definitely the antidote. Yeah, yeah, the antidote. I think the antidote is creativity, curiosity, faith. You know, those, those that love nature, like these, are the things that we cannot let the dark forces,

whatever they may be, take them away from us.

You know, to go back to the question of what lights you on fire, if we were to only be able to answer that in one word, it would be love, wouldn't it? Because all of those things that you listed come under that umbrella.

Definitely love. Yeah, and I think that's the thing we're so in our mind right now, especially with the phone and the news and the media, that we forget to be in our heart. I know, for me, this is a real practice, like I have to, you know, you can do that with breath. You can do that with the

rose oil. You can do that with the laughter. You can do that with watching a movie that makes you cry. But we have to get into our heart center chakras, because we're so like up here. You know, we're becoming these, like robotic, who knows the AI? Maybe this is the plan, you know, it goes into these AI

creatures where we're not because imagine if we're heart centered. Wow, there's so much, so much we can do.

Yeah, and when you are truly, truly heart centered, you cannot support some of these things that are going on. Yeah, yeah.

Oh, gosh, I could talk to you all I know, and I and we, and we will, we will, we will.

So thank you for this beautiful conversation and for the way that you show up in the world. I love you.

I love you. Thank you. Tess, I'm so grateful to know you.