Harness the Power of Fermentation: A Mission for Better Gut Health | 010

So for the past couple of weeks in episodes eight and nine, we've been talking about the power of better gut health. And one of the most effective ways to improve your gut microbiome is to top up your stores of beneficial microbes with beautiful fermented foods, probiotic rich foods. So I received a bunch of messages from listeners asking about delicious ways to include more fermented foods and amazing resources. So I have brought in one of my dear friends Sharon Flynn, who is widely regarded as one of the top fermentation experts in Australia. She's won all of the top culinary Awards, the top chefs go googoo gaga for her kimchi and crouton, beautiful fermented beverages and her two books ferment for good and wild drinks are like my bibles of fermentation. She's also got such a beautiful philosophy about preserving seasonal abundance and, and living in the seasons and, and the way that food brings people together in community. And the story of how she built her business is one for the ages. I'm telling you, it is fabulous. So let's get the skinny from Sharon Flynn. Hello, everybody. We have had some technical Gremlins today I'm here with my friend Sharon Flynn of the firm in tears. She can get her mic to work her headphones, I couldn't get my voice. I don't know what's going on bad weather in Australia, but I'm so happy to be here with her. So during the pandemic, I decided that I was going to relocate and return to Australia. After living in America for decades. I'm an American citizen and an Australian citizen and I wanted to live closer to my elderly parents and spend time with them. So about a week after I moved back to Melbourne, I mean, this beautiful health food store. And I see this gorgeous jar of kimchi just begging for me to go over and get it out of the out of the cold case. And it was a beautiful jar. Oh, but I had no idea the journey that that jar was gonna take me on. So not only was it the best kimchi I had ever had in my entire life and I've had and Kim Chi in my life. It was nuanced and delicate, but robust and bold. And I just thought I have to know who made this kimchi. This is a master fermenter, a master of the craft of fermentation. And I looked over and was so thrilled to see that it was made by someone local, someone called the firm and Terry. And so I sort of went home and did a bit of a search. And then you know, just sort of put it aside got on with my life. And then about a week later, I'm on a walk right around the corner from my house. And one of my favorite buildings, Pickwick house was being renovated. I kind of peered in the window, and it looked like this living laboratory of all of these things fermenting and I just immediately went, Oh, this is my happy place. We're opening tomorrow, it said. So, flash forward 24 hours later, and I'm on the doorstep the minute they open on a walk in, and I meet Sharon. And I look over into this fridge and I see that's the jar of kimchi. This is the woman that made this kimchi. And so they're in a beautiful friendship was born. So thank you so much for joining me Sharon Flynn is the founder of the firm and Terry She's the author of ferment for good the best selling book about fermentation and her follow up book wild drinks. She's widely regarded as the the the top fermentation expert in Australia. She's won multiple awards, and she's just an all around awesome human. That's got a great philosophy about food and life and, and business. And so I thought, wow, I gotta just geek out on my love for fermentation with Sharon Flint.

Made me a bit emotional that that story. I don't know if I heard that. I don't know if I remember that you bought some kimchi and then saw the shop before it opened. That's pretty special. Yeah,

it was just serendipitous. I was just meant to know you. And, you know, then I came and did one of your classes came to events, and you're just such a beautiful teacher and educator. I was already passionate about fermentation. But my goodness, have you taught me taught me so much about it. So thank you for what you're doing to put more microbes into the guts of more humans to help with their health. That's

it. Thank you. Thank you for that beautiful introduction. Yeah, how great that and I was lucky to meet you. Because, you know, I spent quite a time in America. And so it's always nice to you know, there's, you know, shed things like that do I'm still American in that sense. So it feels nice to be able to relate to somebody as well. It's over. We've we've

really connected on that level, haven't we about traveling and living all over the world? Yeah. So let's talk about that because you are self taught in so many ways. And yes, I know you studied all over the world with some of the master mentors around the world. Um, but when did this this love for beautiful fresh foods start for you.

Beautiful fresh food? Well, you know, I think I'm always like good food. I love to eat. That's just, you know. We all I think yeah, I reckon Really that's true deep dive into food and healthy food and good food probably came about when I was a mum, or, you know, pregnant, that kind of like, oh my gosh, the world has, you know, that kind of nesting feeling that like, I have to have the best or I have to fix things for this newborn, you know? So I remember I bought a Champion juicer, do you know check?

Oh, I have a Champion juicer still. They, they never they never, they never crashed out those things. They don't.

They weren't. My dad said it's a lawn mower motor. That was like, What is this? So I've worked that in, it would be 25 years ago. And that Champion juicer, by the way, was the juicer we're using the factory to produce ginger. So much ginger, can you imagine that's so fiber, so the kimchi, kimchi, and it's standard water kefir, and it still works perfectly? The mind to mind you? So I mean, I want to say it started with that. But actually, you know, when I was a teenager, I did I bought a book that was all about food combining and then I made my own almond milks and, you know, I dabbled with vegetarianism, and I thought I might be a Chinese herbalist. I think from pretty young, like 1213. If I'd had the budget budget or met the right person or the right path, I would have probably studied neuropathy or Chinese medicine. And then well, now that go yeah,

there were so many paths isn't there? Well, for me, personally, I'm glad you went down the fermentation path. So, I mean, there's so you've lived in all of these different countries, we learned about fermentation. So tell me about your time in Japan, because you lived in Japan for quite a number of years. And you know, learned from these elderly Japanese women about you know, gardening and fermenting about the seed of this fermentation journey for you. All

right, yeah. So I guess I was already really open to sour tastes and spicy sort of off fish sauce tastes from living in Denmark and Malaysia when I was a teenager. So I was already there wasn't sort of that EU feeling. But I arrived in Japan, 22 years old, and lived in a dormitory and had a very limited selection that you could have to eat downstairs and you every morning lunch and dinner. And that would have been Notto, which is everyone's big hurdle to jump in. And you say Natto is so good for you. You know, it's stringy, it's slimy, it smells bad. Long. It's a big ask. So but that was my first real it was miso soup and natto every day. So I feel like that. That really made me curious because everyone was loving that. And we in Australia, we don't even like oh crap. Oh, crap. You know, we just don't like that in America. They're more open to Yeah. Yeah, no one even eight soccer just by the way, really. So no one but your regular neighbor. So I think it might have started Yes, I was living in a very funny way. I started in a dormitory exposed to natto and stuff. And then I went down to Tokyo, and got a job as a live in nanny. And I don't want to say bullied, but I'm a little bit competitive at certain certain things. Usually I'm not but someone told me I had to make the little boys bento boxes. And you know bento box is like a Japanese lunchbox. So this is long, how many 9092 and it I made yaki soba, which is I felt way more than you'd get in an Australian lunchbox, it was very much for me, you know, a mum. Put celery in there. So I was like cooking this breakfast, put it in a little thing, even put a little bit of ginger on the top. And I sent him on his ways or, and on the way home a lady who lives in America and who is very, very outgoing. and confident. Said, Hey, I was volunteering today and welcome but I saw your lunchbox it's not going to cut it. That poor boy you know, it's the equivalent in America. If you put spaghetti Milanese in a Ziploc bag. Just like you are shamed. The worst thing in the world is when you feel like you're gonna get complimented, and you're rising up with your spirit and then someone's like slap and you're like, Oh, I watched so she gave me some magazines all in Japanese. And I think that really, you know, it was only the other day I was talking about it. So I would have thought that it was the old ladies or I would have thought it was something else. But when it comes down to it that gave me a great beginning because I learned my first real reading language. Were recipe books in Japanese, translating those writing them out the night before getting the ingredients. No one was going to and I didn't want to shame the little beautiful boy either and I was just like there's little motivation there for me to make a good lunchbox, you know, other mums, the little boy that people was working for. So I made a damn good lunchbox, and stay with that family for a year. And I had to peel his meander in pits. It's grapes, by the way. There are other food, things that weren't as fun. But I moved from there to get a job out in the country just to I was an assistant to a guy, a guy from Berkeley, he was doing his PhD. And he said, You teach my classes while I finished this damn thing, you know. And that brought me out to mount to cow which is in the countryside. And there are no people were when I was a teacher, so people were a bit afraid to approach me. It was not in the early 90s, there weren't a lot of foreigners, there were no six foot women. Because the law women out there. So yeah, it was people were kind of nice to me very nice, but separate, except for the people over 70 on SA, they've got nothing to lose. So sometimes I think did they even know they're getting that they even knew me. Now I just very friendly and they lived on either side of my apartment. One was a small veggie garden with all these old lady friends that I'm sort of relating to you more and more as I get older, it's like, let's get away from the retired husbands. And they sit there all day there. And so I would go down and help them. And they would laugh and laugh. They told me I was a pigeon because my boobs are so big compared to them. You know, that was a lovely friendship that we got. And they taught me more than food things, obviously. But it was a garden. So they would get there in the mornings. And, you know, they'd pick some carrots and shove them in a bed, which was knocker, which is rice bran the rye friend and then you know, in the afternoon, that's what you'd have. It was already pickle. So a lot of stuff that I wouldn't have seen. So in no way would I have written home that stage which was writing, no, no internet. And said, I'm learning from entering that wasn't. That was just more like, wow, meeting all these amazing foods. And I've met also on the corner of that street, there was a very high end sashimi restaurant. And he would let me come in, especially if he had dignitaries or some special guests and say, Come up, can you come tonight, you know, and he'd sit me right there make us look very international, baby, puffer fish and all kinds of stuff and even take me fishing with him. So you know, it wasn't he was 68 or something, you know. And I ended up calling him dead Pitocin he was a very, very good chef. And if I could have I would have stayed there. And if I thought I'd known it was possible, I would have asked him if I could apprentice because I hung with him a lot. Yeah, yeah, old ladies in the garden game. And then the blokes down the road who are all retired. But Volunteer Fire Brigade. I don't think they really taught me about food, but certainly about drinking and making people feel welcome. And also that kind of drinking food, we you know, is a kind of food. I had a lot of a lot of variety in that early in that time before I made. Yeah. And

so, you know, because that's there's a huge fermenting culture in Japan, you know, you go into grocery stores in Japan, and there's an entire wall of all these different kinds of fermented foods. So that was what a great sort of bootcamp so to speak, or education there, and then you moved to America. And so what did you learn from being in Chicago? about food? Yeah, and started doing a different kind of fermenting that?

I did. I said, Chicago was my sourdough. And cheese and pickles and gravlax stage in a Jewish community Highland Park, and had a fantastic neighbor. He'd be like, Why? What's your last name again? Why are you living here? Accident, beautiful neighborhood, beautiful community. But everyone and everyone had simulus kitchens. But they said to me, oh, you know, I prepare food. I don't cook it. They just, and I get that now. But at the time I was stay at home mom and like, my job is to make good food. i What else am I supposed to do? Yeah. And I couldn't find really good bread. And I think part of it just in talking to you now. Part of it is that I'd come from Japan where the bread is, you know Shaka pan and there wasn't sourdough. And so when I got to America, I was like, oh, go back to you know, nice bread and stuff. And that particular neighborhood there were bagels which you know, sounds cliche, but there wasn't whole grain sourdough bread that I thought getting out of Japan, I'd have read again and cheese. So I don't know I bought. I was making bread just with these packets. And I was going through a stage of you know, people were calling me a scratch cooker. They weren't saying this, my friend Karen. She's Australian, which you'd assume they were more like this. My friend Sharon. She just scratched and I'd be like that just was because I asked which pumpkins are good to make pumpkin pie with. And I like getting the can I was like, and that's when father scratch would have started. But then I was like, Okay, who makes the yeast? Where do you get yeast from? What did we do before? That was put in a packet. So I started with a little bit of moisture yeast from that I looked up and you could get yeast soft yeast, which everyone knows about. But then I was like, still no, still no further to knowing where this comes from. So I went to a market and sand or cactus, little magazine sand, okay. Big couple of books, who, you know, is my first introduction. He's a fermentation revivalist might

find two that was the first fermentation book I ever had to it's one of the most famous fermentation books.

Yes. And then the art of meditation. So I yes, that and it was like a spiritual, you know, like, coursing through my body awareness. Because I felt like I knew a lot about food. And I didn't know about that. And it doesn't mean, I just love that feeling when you go. I thought I knew about the world. But there's so much I don't know. That is a really, yeah. And yeah, I thought I knew more than other people about this. But I don't know anything. I'm starting from the beginning, you know. And I think the fabulous thing about fermenting for me personally, is that it's invisible in a way, you know, you can't see this beautiful stuff, the transformation, you can't see it going on. But it's happening. And that's a little miracle in your life. On your bench, you know, you can hear it, you're getting proof that it's happening. But you you're not doing anything, it's happening by itself. So I felt a little sunshiny a little spiritual thing that I found really moving. Also, because I did move a lot, I didn't get to garden or grow a tree and watch it grow. So I feel like the long term project of even a three dose out three days sourdough or a 10 day pickle, or the act of finding good milk, just going a bit further to know your local food supply. And then the people you meet through it. But then putting yourself like I love that moment. When you're making something and you go say it's a miso. Where will I be in a year when I'm giving this? Who am I going to give it to? Who's going to be eating it? What are on offer right now is intention for the year, next year? You know, yeah, yeah. And you go see your little buddy. Yeah,

let's talk about that. That idea of seasonality, and working with the seasons and things turning over. So when you move to Seattle, and you got, you know, really into the CSA movement, and you know, local agriculture, and the worm farms, and you know, tell us all about that, where that whole real local community creativity, you know, that part of your food journey opened up for

you. Yeah, so yeah, so Chicago was the bread because and everything and I think it was a lovely time. But we moved, and it was that word. We weren't just Seattle, I'd already done those things. And I joined then to look for the milk and look for the things I needed. I found Jubilee farms, which is first I didn't know it was, it's a great one to have joined for my first time, you know, pumpkins in the autumn. You know, just really, I wouldn't say if you're American you, but it's American. But yeah, just aesthetic.

So much fun. Oh,

and, but it was a fabulously organized when you can sign up for a turkey for Thanksgiving, and then watch it grow. You know, and I had little kids by then I had three daughters. And so that was a thing to do. But also, it was the feeling of well, I paid so much money I felt to be part of this CSA for four people. family of five and then I signed up in the winter and the first few weeks or month the first few weeks would have been spring and it's just like it's really just a little bit. Maybe get past to go the supermarket. There's only some little bits because early spring is not great, right? What else can they give you? So I was going to the supermarket and supplementing but I thought a little bit aren't because I was thinking that that was our food budget. It really was it's probably $1,000 for the year. But I was supplementing. And so as but as the season grew because I was new, you know, still in Australia, we have this different weather pattern where cabbages they have a season and they still grow all year long. We don't have been there in Japan. Well, they had more seasonality, but it was new. The idea to me being part of that firm, and having to make the budget work as the weeks went on and we got into summer, there was a button, like I'd never seen really. And that would be towards the autumn, the harvest was like, take all this take extra, come back on Sunday, we're having a big pickling event. And that's when I was like holy shit, I have to, if I'm going to do and walk the talk, if I don't preserve it, next spring, I'll be going to the supermarket all the time again. And that's when it really doesn't go. Oh, fermenting is not just like for fun, like, I'm gonna make fermenting yummy flavors and living foods. And it was preserving the abundance and I needed to do that which, with supermarkets, we don't need to do and we just buy anything want to, you know, there's a fun part of seasonality. But it's not serious anymore. Because we have supermarkets. Yes, it came because I was aware of the budget that I was under and my feelings around food, I just thought I'm finally understand why you preserve and ferment, like for real. And in my case, if I want to do it properly, have to ferment while this, there is abundance. And they I love that cheese because all winter long. You've got jars of cassava from the summer that you knew who did that,

Oh, I love that. So it's this beautiful gift that you give your future self. Yeah, it's beautiful. I love this. Talk to me about when Lulu got sick, and your daughter, and then you went into that stage of fermentation where it became so much more about health and gut health and, and feeding your gut microbiome and life. And you know, that aspect of it. So

interesting, isn't it? Because I did love the life early on, you know, I was like, Well, you're a miracle. But I didn't do it for that. And then I did it for abundance. And then suddenly, it was like, Oh, I had no idea really literally, we were living in Brussels. And Lulu had had a steady course and a large variety of antibiotics for a good six months with only four tall, skinny little four year old my third child. And she was fading terrible, terrible thing like I really wanted every time I'd go to the doctor, you know how it is like, just diagnose me now. Like awful news. So we can get on with this. But no one was doing it. And it was incredibly lonely because no one really follows your journey. And each time you go to the doctor, they send you to a different one and have to start again with your Okay, so last December, she doesn't, you know, and as you're doing it, you're tearing up. It's terrible. I've never had I'd never had that kind of vulnerability. And they were saying maybe mom, maybe you have depression or maybe she has childhood depression. Maybe she has a childhood eating disorder. I'm like, no, no, no one's listening. It was it was pretty shit. And that was my first experience with something quite complicated. And not life threatening. But you don't know that at the time. Yeah. And really feeling like, oh, no, the world is run by adults just like me. You know, like, we're not all connected, then it's not perfect. And systems not really that great. Which you know, but sort of like, why isn't it better? Shouldn't be. It could be. Anyway, I had a friend who had a really great naturopath. And she said, I've been telling him she's with us. I told him about it. And she actually told me to go to him but I couldn't do that at the time. She did that thing where they you know they holder a watch over your head of you. Yes, yes. And I was just like this is more serious and practical than that. Okay. Like I like that stuff about Lido love it, but it might you wanted a tangible

outside solution? Yes.

You gave her a list. You said tell her to quit with all that chasing, stop chasing and put life back in and out by the antibiotics. And there was a list and I was like, I'm getting goose bumps now. But it was like, Oh my gosh, these are all of my hobbies I've ever had. Yeah, prime I didn't need to have I always thought a bit superfluous a bit silly a bit. Mum's going down the rabbit hole rabbit hole, you know, scratch cooker, like everything came like into this one beautiful red line of I haven't purpose. And I this is what all of those things were thought. This isn't easy. So, you know, I came home to Australia. We've been away. I've been away 20 years and got all my stuff arrived. I met a lady in the nearby neighborhood who had milk kefir grains, which to be honest, I hadn't done that. I hadn't delved into that. I only bought it because you've got a lot of that there's a lot of fear elsewhere, but there wasn't any in Australia then. And just happened to meet her and Water Kefir. And then I just set the bench up And I decided, right I have a single mum, but also I want to say sole parent because there's no help. I set the bench up, got the bills into school, got a job three days a week at the school, luckily, and fed her some of these foods. And that made the difference visibly within weeks, weeks. I mean, I want to say days, but I don't want to give anyone sort of like a sense of overnight and immediately it changed. But yeah, I just decided I bought a lot of books on gut health, which 10 years ago, the only one available was the GAPS diet book. Yes, we'll stand by because it has beautiful illustrations. She doesn't mince her words. She's a Russian. Yeah, it's like, you know, this is how the gut works. And it can be fixed if you do this very strict diet. And there was no way I had the energy to give that diet to my kids or me. So I just decided to add the life at it. So whatever we're eating, which way can I put put the bacteria into her body? A drink or an ice cream? Like I made ice cream out of milk kefir or a smoothie. I used to make the smoothies into icy poles, and she could eat it in the car on the way to school when you're like, Oh, that's not great. But I was like you're not, you know. Ice cream. It's like millions of bacteria. Yes. Yeah. So you're putting

all of these fantastic microbes with the mafia and the sauerkraut and the smoothies and everything with all of these probiotic rich foods. I mean, we're so fortunate to be in an era where the gut microbiome is being talked about all day, every day and gut health, gut health, gut health, right. So you know, those of you that are in my 60 Day reset, it's gonna be 60, the decade of detox the blending of cookbooks, you know that I'm huge about gut health. It's all about gut health. And thank God, everybody's catching up with this right, which is so wonderful. But back then it was considered this very fringe thing. And there wasn't comfier and sauerkraut and kimchi on every grocery store shelf, like there is in most places now. So how did it go from feeding your family and all getting getting your guts healthy? And figuring that piece out and getting Lulu healthy again? How did that turn from a personal mission into a business? So you you told me about how you were you started sort of just giving it to the local health food store in exchange for credits for organic food for

yourself. So, because I went when I came back from Belgium, I was in a very small community, very small school out about an hour outside of Melbourne. An alternative school is they say alternative especially traditional, you know, it's just like one big classroom in a way. I've mentioned it because people notice the change in her, which was triumphant. You know, it's just like, yeah, I when I started the school, we put it down a year ago, and she's so tall, you know, and I was like, she hasn't missed a lot of school. And she was going to a French bilingual school anyway, you know, so let's just start here. And the last time she was at school that the substitute teachers had said to me, I didn't realize she was mute. She doesn't want to. And she, you know, in America, I did gungho we went for it sign language videos in the car as we're driving, using that, and they were like, oh, sorry, we didn't know no one told us and like she's not nude. You know, when I did put her into school again, I was like, I don't know what to expect. So put it down in here. But within two or three months, they're like, I think she can go to grade one. She's great. And she was you know, people saw that. And I was walking my dog with the other mums. I was Evangelical, because we had nearly put her on some pretty some Ritalin type stuff. So I was just kind of like, I read this capsule could have done this. And I've done that, Oh, my God, this. And now we're like, oh, you know what, a couple of them. Like, I went to the naturopath and I mentioned that. And they hadn't heard of it. And I was like, I don't care. I don't get amazing. And you know, they started taking my jars because I was making it in I had cracks from my hobby time, you know, buying things for your hobby. So they'd come over and I'd send them home with jobs. And then that will get through word of mouth. People were like, my dad's going to chemo, do you think it would work? I'm gonna say it as quickly, very quickly. I felt sick to my stomach about how vulnerable I remembered it. When you're vulnerable, you want someone to give you a diagnosis or say take a tablespoon of this. You want anything? And I felt it coming my way. And people were just like, What do I do? What do I take? And I started off before I was a business. I started off saying I'm not a business. I'm just in my home kitchen. It's easy. Let me teach you how to do it. So I ended up going from three or four women in a kitchen to country Women's Association Hall, or you know with like 20 to 50 people not huge end of each one they would say, lining up one Doing a diet, like wanting me to say just take two tablespoons of sauerkraut. You know, it's like what is going on. It's just food. And it's food that we're missing from our life because of the industrialized food system. It's just a generation. Somehow we lost it, because we started pasteurizing everything. So it's not somehow traced how it happened. It was like we didn't know it was important. And that's all I'm here to tell you, like, actually important to get bacteria in your body through soil, when you're gardening through your dog licking you through cow crap. I'm not going to give you a medicine, like a prescription. And so then I started going well, you know what I'm telling everyone at the beginning of every workshop, don't ask me how much you have to take. You know, this is food, we eat food, eat peacefully, happily, it slowly and it eat good food with life in it. And so I started giving that prescription, a little bit of fermented food, a wide variety of fermented food frequently. That's what Yes. And so whether that's water kefir in the morning, or a milk is there in your smoothie, or just $1 a bit of cultured butter, you know. And so, that happened. And then I realized I was just handing it out. And people like, oh, because I was new. Like, I feel like I'm using you. And so I was like, Oh, well, they let me pay. Let me pay, please. I was like, Oh $10 I don't know. And there was one of the friends who worked in the wine industry. And she was like, No, I paid 20 bucks for this. I was like $20 and I'm just like, go put it in the in the shop and see what happens. All right, you know, but in the meantime, I had like 12 fridges like five in my house and six in the garage or something had

already grown at that point. You had all these fridges, it was kind of

going like it went from Lulu and me and my girls mums, I've walked the dog with people at the school asking about it. I didn't know if though they just really friendly extend you as a single mom, and you know, like, oh, we'll pay and so I'd put an esky or cooler in the boots, the trunk bilingual and then they would put there that sort of felt legal. I was working at the school and having my boots just a job going at it and put him back in the job. And another that was looking at the sort of weeds. Well, I was like, I was watching that. And I felt like her but wasn't as dangerous. And work in the school, get home, put the kids to sleep, everything's normal, and then make sauerkraut you know, like so that was that happened to be like it went from that to also then word got around. And I had a little Facebook Mac thing where there's a seriously silly, I would say they I go to whatever church it was while I wait for Lily to sing. So Thursdays I'm in Essendon. Friday nights I'm in it was all about the girls hobbies or their Yeah, extracurricular stuff. Saturday's agenda, very musical. So I was always going into town because they're in the country and nothing was like not to both but high level, you know, because then yeah, so they were like you had to go into the city for that. So I was always driving to different neighborhoods for different lessons. So that became a thing where I dropped the kids off meet new people here in the Madera crowd or kimchi.

I didn't want to street corner and stuff. It's been love it all right into word of mouth to spread.

It's like 800 bucks, you know, on a Saturday. Wow. Wow, actually, but I did not mean if we're here for business. I didn't count my hours, the cost of goods. You know, I wasn't going well. Let's just, I was just sort of like still volunteering, in a way but getting a cash. You know what I mean? Didn't Yeah, I felt rich by being paid. But if I worked it out, it was probably just breaking even you know, that I had a job. So it wasn't really I was enjoying the cash. But it wasn't. My dad had said to me, have you done all the work yet? So you showed me. So that was a fun time. A fun era. And then it got too much. I got home one day there a bunch of dudes in the driveway. And I was just like, it was a 12 acre property. It was off grid. And so I feel like if I left the girls alone, which I did, sometimes I'm getting older. Yeah, that's a bit creepy. Actually, you know, driving away down that driveway to shop from my garage. I

used the crowd lady. Are you the coffee lady? Yes.

Tell me like how did you know Oh, wow. You even interested in this kind of thing. So I did. I went to the luckily we were in a small town because I don't know if I would have done that necessarily in this city. I didn't know that I could sign up for a farmers market. Or maybe it was oh, maybe it was because I was just a single mom and I had to get the girls to flute on a Saturday. There's no way I could do farmers mouth fit style commitment. Yeah, I went to the local health food store and I was like, Hey, man, do you think if people order from me I could write their name on a little tag, I had to actually put these tags on the ground. But I mean, when I didn't have a business professional, this was my first professional level. But I'd write you know, test. And then I'd say no fennel seed, like you're on

believable. And so you went from you know, it's so this word of mouth thing, because it was so powerful because your stuff is so incredible. And it tastes so nuanced and incredible. So how did you go from that phase to you know, people like famous chefs like Andrew McConnell, and, you know, people like that, noticing and wanting your stuff, and then you supplying to, you know, businesses, that was

weird. Um, I want to say, seriously, I got there out of a lovely, lovely naivety because I didn't have a goal where I sat down and made a business plan and went first, this and that at the beginning. So it happened through your products were great. I was making them with a lot of care for my family and friends. And these people, I felt they were friends because it felt like that. And then when I put it in the health food store, I'd put people's names on. And so people who knew nothing about this whole thing, it'd be like, how do I get on that list? Like how is that happening? And I think Allah will wolf Tasker who is a doyen of everything, you know, food, yes. Regions, especially yes. He said, Ah, that's I had milk. You know, though it was. It's, you're not supposed to prevent anything and just whack it in a fridge without barcodes. I was doing that. But felt safe, because I was doing it almost like a club. But you had to, like put it in there. And then the owner would give me credit for food. So it wasn't, I felt like it was sliding under the Yeah, you were battery. We were we were kind of just working it out. It wasn't really something. Anyway, she was like, How do I get on there? And I didn't know her name. So I didn't know she was famous. So she emailed or called and said, I want milk kefir. I'm Russian. And this has tasted like my memories. And I was like, Oh, honey, I don't go in that direction and read them back on Facebook. I go, Well, honestly, I don't go Daylesford ever, you know, no. Yeah. And it wasn't until she was pretty persistent. And then it wasn't until one of the staff were at the school I was working at, we're looking at the paper and they're like, what's that lady's name again? And now she is famous, you know, pretty famous. Yeah, there they are. And, you know, I was like, Oh, such a long way. All right. So we did and she would have given I think, then, she wasn't taking the crowd with no caffeine for personal use, and then water kefir through pure water, because he just one flavor. And she had given that then I think to obviously the chefs that come and stay at her place, she would have said, Oh, there's something really special and yes, paste it. Now I know. Melbourne can be a wonderfully welcoming place and open to new ideas. At times, you know, sometimes people think it's hard to break through things, but I think people can be pretty charmed and want to be involved. And so I think when she was like kind of a tribe, this to Andrew and another chef in Sydney, and they called Can you get it? I was like, oh, yeah, definitely. I go into the CBD all the time, you know, but I get I met someone who I'd give a box to I never went to the restaurant. So I had no idea it was going to a good restaurant. Until one day, I said, I'll deliver it. And I went there.

Yeah, you've landed in, you know, in the in the den of one of the most famous chefs in Australia. So then the business really started to grow. And he grew and grew and he got very, very big, and then your health started to suffer. And the quality of the product wasn't as personal creative, and then you decided to return to small batch.

Yes, I feel like the quality was the same. But the things you have to do and the cost for the ingredients, changes, like so. There I found out through being in manual being a manufacturer now that there's that old like a Dodge, I guess, likely from Japanese but it's faster, quicker and more. faster, quicker. That's fast as the same word, faster, cheaper and more. That's what you have to do in a factory. You can't have all this equipment And and all of these people and just do a slow food like, yeah, the way that this world works. So, you know, if I buy cabbages in season I buy 1000 I might in a good season, you'll get them for like 350. But right now, right now, now they're $7 Each, you know what I mean? But if you've got in a supermarket, you know, you have to take that because he can't keep fluctuating of prices. You can't say, oh, red cabbages at the moment. There's been floods everywhere, we're going to change it to beetroot and green cabbage. Not easy to do if you're in a larger stream of supermarkets. So if you are coming at this from a large scale manufacturer sensibility, you'd be like, Oh, get your shit together, you know, like, change it. But I was like, I don't want to this whole thing started for gut health. Hang on. So my daughter's here. I mean, an interview.

I'm loving the realness of this. What I love about podcasting is roars anything so hot, right? Not?

Everybody's doing I love it. Why not? Um, it was up to

you. We're talking about about how what happens when you scale supermarkets and how you couldn't change things and what you learned about

the product because I felt like our popularity, or our loyalty had come because it is a really good product. Part of the reason we didn't have these living products, because it's much easier for me to buy 20,000 cabbages, make them into sauerkraut and then pasteurize it. So it's good in a can or a jar for 20. Yeah, you know, but I wanted live products and I wanted them to be shut down at a certain pH for three weeks, three to six weeks, they're at their best in the fridge isn't in your fridge, and that, you know, then it's up to you. But I needed it to be a certain way. I took it really seriously. Yeah, yeah. Like, I'm like, I didn't change my sensibility into an industrialist manufacturer. Everyone's mum suddenly, ya know, of it being really real. I hired some I hired a chef that turned into our relationship with Him didn't go it wasn't a good idea. Maybe we have all gotten that showered? Yeah, we've all done that. And yeah, yeah, it started to how I got to write before COVID was very different. And I was just thinking, Oh, this system is broken. And the things you need to do to make it cheaper or more, because it, you know, fermenting food, is the problem is there's batch variants. And we have to always reduce the variables to get a consistent product. And doing that meant, you know, we've got this I've got one here naturally sparkling drink, like a kombucha or water, coffee or whatever. Well, you might have to add something or use state stevia or nuvia, or euresearch hole or Zillertal, any of those non fermentable sugars.

Yeah,

use those just to make it no alcohol at all. But in order to do that, then it's no longer fizzy. So then you have to add, force, carbonation, and gas. And I was like, actually, when you look into every ingredient, and you start having to buy large amounts, I don't think force carbonated products are good for our gut health. I don't think fizzy drinks are good for you unless it's naturally carbonated. To be honest, we're going to find this out in the next 10 years, this I mean,

the studies are already out about it right about what it what those things do to the gut microbiome. And we're going to learn as you say more and more and more about these

preventable sugars. All of that. Yeah, I wanted to get organic sugar. It was coming from Sri Lanka. If it was Australian grown, even though we have Queensland and cane sugar lower, if we wanted to get organic garlic, Australian grown, peeled, it went from Australia to China got peeled formaldehyde and brought back and named it was it was still organic. There were so many things that were a little disheartening as well. I felt like it was all like, how do I scale? And keep these and keep true to what I believe in and what I want the world to be like? Yeah, and it was really like, oh, there's a look, I can't, there was a lot to achieve. I couldn't change the sugar industry or the fruit and garlic industry, you know. But it was also I was doing everything the most expensive way. So it was when I say my health was affected, I'd say mental health. Yeah, yeah. And then of course, as we know, affects your whole body. So yes,

and your gut shreds your gut. So when you decided to open the cemetery in the shop, in equipped place, just to be part of the community and connect with people and you Do you love to teach and get your hands in there with everybody and sort of, you know, pass on this really beautiful, intuitive approach, you know, to making these live foods? And that philosophy? What what did that do you know, for your mental health, like being connected again with people after being shut down during the pandemic, and opening this beautiful shop with that then invites people into this living world where there's all these living foods surrounding you. You know, how important is teaching to you, you know, you, I know that you and I have spoken and you don't consider yourself an entrepreneur, as a business owner, you consider yourself an educator and a teacher, and a food advocate. What does that mean for you, like on a personal level to pass this practice

on to others? Yeah, I'd say I didn't know. You know, I knew when we think about what we've just talked about, I said, I started off trying to teach people do it yourself, you know, they wouldn't listen to Alright, I'm going to make it for you. And then then I will COVID COVID meant that the little extra things that gave me joy, like teaching, going to little workshops, and that kind of thing. That'll stop right. And I was I think people say to me now oh, what happened? You were prolific on the zooms, you know, remember, that's like, zooms all the time. I did enjoy that was for connection. But as soon as we didn't have to anymore, it's like, I crashed. I was like, I can't possibly I definitely minimize myself quite a lot. I still COVID ended, but I was still going out to the factory. I was still, you know, workshops weren't happening. But there was no I wasn't doing online and was done with that. I really went like this. And I always think there's a the highway that you go on is called the colder. And I was like crying on the colder all the way to work on my work. Really feeling sorry for myself. And then I wonder I was walking the dog and skip Well, I kept passing this job and thinking, oh, you know, but my realistically, you shouldn't add more things when you're like that. So you know, oh, my god, like, Oh, you're gonna add another thing? No, that's I don't know how I can stop doing this without going bankrupt. Really? You know, I put a lot of money into the machinery. Yes, do this. And so I was like, I don't know what to do next. But I have to leave this. I can't keep going. I hate it. And the food. I wouldn't play music that would be good for the water. You know, I was when I was making the factory, it was all about the vibe. And here I was hating it. So I was like that. That's against the rules. So I've got the shop anyway. And just segwayed it's the third year of the shop, and I'm still I still have a bit of equipment in that factory. Waiting for you to pick up. You know, it's not been like this clean cut love it. Nothing ever is is it? If things take time. No, they stay thing here is people come into the shop, they regularly the main emotion is gratitude. They always say thank you for doing this. Thank you for being here. And that's like, Thank you for saying that. You know, I took some risks. I jumped over some hurdles to keep going. And so when they're just unwarranted, I don't even know these people, their customers who you know, have been told they need something and they look it up and they come in and it's a lovely shop. I want to say it is girls and I painted it. The furniture is from Thailand. There I had larger houses like America. Yes, it does

feel like that. It feels like you're walking into someone's home. Yeah. And there's all this stuff that's fermenting and all these beautiful jars and crocs in the whole thing in these fridges and all this beautiful pottery just feels like you know, I mean, I'm in there every week picking up my my fermented yummies. But it does really feel like that, and you've developed this really lovely community.

And yeah, you have makers. So now I'm able to approach other makers, whether it's pottery, or woodwork, anything related, you know, like, there's a young couple who started back a salt mill in Tasmania, so it's like, oh, I want really good salt or I need, you know, and I can get things in small batch. I know what it's like to be the maker. And I know what it's like to be the new fermenter so I'm trying to get kits together and things that are authentic. And they're not like, buy this now. You know, it's, you don't really need equipment to ferment, you can ferment in a, you know, a good quality bucket, you know, so I'm trying to break all that now. Those are two good message. It's nice to have nice things. So you know, I'm sort of choosing some of these things. If you're really into it. Go ahead. Buy beautiful crock. You know, not only Love

that you meet people where they're at you with this right? Where you can start with no equipment and just your bare hands and some fresh produce felt right. Or then to the more advanced people, it was really lovely being in the in that community with you in some of those classes. What was it like for you writing your books when you're so intuitive and you just getting there with your hands and a splash of this and a pinch of this and where you had to write things down because you wanted, you know, home cooks to be able to replicate these beautiful recipes from the book. Your

questions are so clever. That was really hard. Yeah, I, I couldn't understand how I was going to write the book. Also felt like just so back then 2014 When I was writing it, I still had to convince people to buy sauerkraut, like people be like, why? And I had that on a sausage job now and they're like, no, no, guts are devoid of wildlife. And I had to tell these long stories. It wasn't just like doing tastings with cheese. It was hard. So now I was telling you to make it. Why would you do that? So I think the only way to talk about it was long. So I would tell beautiful, I'm not the year has a beautiful story. It's but I want to get you into it as much as me. So it's just like a friend trying to get you in to be in my hobby with me, like, love this lovely. I love it.

And you do and you do do that beautifully, by the way, in your essence. And in the books. They're beautiful books. But yeah, I felt I was already super into fermentation when I met you. And you just made me want to be even more into it. I was just on fire after that class. Well, yeah,

I mean, there is a lot in the world, when I've just gone on about all the problems, you know, oh, what a beautiful thing to see magic everyday. You know, like, finally. And I think, you know, when I was in Japan as a young woman, they'd be like crows eating vomit on the street and ugly things. But then you'd see a beautiful little thing, just a tiny little statue. And I used to think that's really important, tiny little snippets of beauty. And then when it came to fermenting, I realized that's, that's what you get, you get a little snippet of something. And it's like, it's what you need, you know. But so in the book, I tried to bring that idea of necessary magic or necessary wonder, like, it's necessary. It's not. It's missing, like maybe I mean, people who are religious and spiritual, maybe they get that every week and church, that's the ideal scenario. But it's less, it's less attainable these days, I think. And so for me, it was like, let's share in a bit of wonder or find something that makes you feel that it's not this. And also then I was like, Yeah, I don't like when I started writing the book, I'd say to Hardy grant, how can you? You know, I had to be in pounds and kilos. Yes. Like, I can't, you know, so what I did was pretend I was writing to all my friends back in the US, but it made or in Japan, like, right, and I could use my voice. So I knew I was talking to you be like, I'm gonna write you a letter gotten into sauerkraut, you wouldn't believe it. This is why I got into it. This is why I love it. And here's the recipe and then I just do the recipe in the fun way. And then I'd break it down to make sure I've got the right. Weights and Measures are in a beautiful, well, they would have written that and send it to you. And you would have it and you know, this is what you need adjusting. And I wrote another book, I think I would do it with my audience now on social media be like who wants to be part of the next book, like, I'm going to send this recipe out, you're going to test it, you're going to tell me what you didn't like or what you did wrong. What you felt wasn't enough info. But that when I read the blue book that was, you know, I think I didn't even have Instagram. Maybe I did. But it was yeah, it was different, wasn't it? Like, it was different? I mean,

even the recipe cards that you've had down in the shop are so beautiful. And it's all you know, I know they've been printed now. But it's all you know, handwritten, and I mean, they just

look cool artists, like yeah, they're gorgeous. And you scoot down stoop low enough to write a recipe card. Here's the words and they always Yeah, really beautiful. Pictures. So yeah, it's

so gorgeous. They're so gorgeous. You know, it's a to me, you're such a beautiful example. I hate pardon the pun, but you're just someone that goes with your gut, on everything, right? Whether it's I'm going to go and be an exchange student in Denmark and go and live in Japan to an opening that shop and everyone tells me why don't add anything and you just go no, this is this. Is it. This is it for me, right? Going with your gut. And also yes, you're teaching other people to nourish their guts with better gut health with, you know, through fermented foods, and probiotic rich foods. Yeah, it's such a beautiful way to move through the world. What now that you've started doing your online classes, is at the cemetery.com.au. Those of you that are listening from other parts of the world and you're not in Melbourne, Australia and can't just walk around the block and get care, get Sharon to, I was talking about my business partner, Karen, get Sharon to put your scoop out the kefir grains for you, we'll put it in a little jar for you and pull out some recipes that might be good for you and your family. This is what you do, right? It's like you like you go into this meeting with this Alchemist or something, right? It's just so wonderful. You really personalize it and get to know people and figure out what's going to work for them and their family and you send them home a little box of goodies, which is just this this magic, right? What's your dream for the cemetery? You know, moving forward

at the moment? Isn't? Well, you know, it's probably a bit surprising. I, I feel like there are a lot of people who don't know that they belong here. They come in, you know, when you know, you're a little bit interested in something but you go in and you're like, Well, I don't know, quite kind of like the home brewing bro club, you know, like, all the looks in the home brewing shops. And you ask them a question. And they kind of like, just use that. And they're like, What is this? I will. So we've started starting in the next few days, really, we've got a little bit of coffee and tea. Yeah, really beautiful, fermented and gut friendly. And I say we're doing pour over so that the filters, capture the, you know, the volatile oils, the better for your gut. So choosing some things that I think are great if you are on antibiotics, or you know, things but it makes a little bit more accessible for people to come in. They'll sit here and I realized, oh, everyone's just a human being. And I can just ask questions. And there's a library of all my fermenting books here and magazines and things that you can just sit or you know what I feel like, if you're a bit lonely, come and sit, just sit here have a little sip on some bone broth or something and

feel better. I mean, there's always somebody sitting with you in the shop, you know, when they come in, and you're just having this lovely conversation and sending them home with all these beautiful things. And I mean, that sense of belonging and community and local community there is this real, even though your stuff is in tons of shops around Australia, and you know, you're bottling things, and there's all this beautiful stuff going on around Australia. But now there's this online component, you know, that is the beauty, beauty of social media. But there's also you really are finding this beautiful balance between national and being very local, and very connected to this local community.

If I'm honest, you know, I can't, I'm very it is very local, but my original dream would be to do what I've done here and see if it can go some if he can take it someplace else. So yeah, I know manufacturer to help you and get take your recipe and make it and I have another one of these because the first fire you know that like, I think I've got something happened that before I was even in the little health food store, I realized if I, if I need these foods and can't find them, and I have to make them myself and I actually know how to do it that everyone else is going to need this. And we have a fish manga, we have cheese, mangoes, we have bakeries, we have all these other things. So this should be a fermented dairy. So when I was doing that thing, where I was walking the dog, and I found the shop, it was kind of like, you always kind of just wanted a supplementary to begin with. So bring it back to the elementary idea. And, you know, I've really, so I can balance everything. I'm training my customers, like we're only open, but it's long. It's like 730 or 730, Thursday and Friday and Saturday, seven ish to like five ish, three days a week. And should that go really well. I'll open another day and open another day. But at the moment, it's like if you want these things, you can order them online. If you want to come to a workshop, they're all the time here you know, and if you can't, there's online workshops. So I'm trying to help anything if you can't get to a shop we can send it to you we're trying to reach people. But I think reaching people with sort of a heart center is a is a nice goal. So I feel like he couldn't do it elsewhere. It's not just me that could do this kind of thing. You know he Well

I'm very fortunate that you are around the corner from me and I get to feel in touch you and get a hug and get all that that that yummy, beautiful magical energy. You can learn more about Sharon at the firm and terry.com.au and you can get her books ferment for good and wild drinks where we get your books on Amazon anywhere else. And I have two wonderful signed copies that are cherished possessions and the recipes are exquisite. I really cannot stress enough that it is literally the best kimchi I've ever had in my life and so many of the drinks I've had the best I've ever had just beautiful, nuanced flavors and very, very simple but but lovely. So thank you so much for how you show up. If you can Say Anything to somebody right now that had a dream in their heart, something that they were dreaming about. And they just didn't know if they should quite go for it. And didn't know if they had what it takes, and, and maybe weren't going to follow their dream what what would you say to them?

Oh, no. I mean, I run towards things like that I ran towards my interests and my curiosities. So I would say to anyone, life long, not just for business, but do what you're drawn to do it, you're drawn to do it without any plan sometimes feel good about doing what you're drawn to? Well wants that from us. And things will turn out actually, and you don't know where you might be headed. But you probably do deep down. Deep down, you'll know I think I'm doing the right thing. But like with my fomenting journey, I didn't know what I was going to do back when I was in Japan, or Chicago, or Seattle or Brussels. But I only got here by continuously doing what I was drawn to. So I feel like I mean, I've always told the kids that it used to be, I'd say, find your curiosity and go to it all the time. But then people say to me, I have not curious about anything. So I'm like, well, that don't feel bad, you know. So I've changed it to what you're drawn to because I feel like that's curiosity too. But I would say I had huge ups and downs. So there's some times that I, but at all times, I think the only reason I'm still here is because I was doing what I was drawn to still, you know, like, I never felt like, this is not worthy of my time. Yeah. I've never felt that. I've always thought, am I a good entrepreneur? Should I be in business should have been doing this? Am I a good leader? Am I a good mom? Am I a good staff member or a team leader, all of those things, they come into it. But that's just another challenge that you have to do and get through. And if you're the kind of person who goes and you think way ahead before you even do it, you're not going to do it. Like nobody wouldn't do these things. If you went, I want to do a degree I want to I want to do a doctorate. First, I haven't got my BA then I have to get my masters. How am I going to do it? You know, they just do what you're drawn to it and keep doing it. And your work is more of a passion then. Then just a simple black and white thing. Yeah. And usually we're pretty good at that we're drawn to in the end. Yeah. And then you've got Yes. Love that. Do you know x run to the world? From you? Well,

it's lovely. Yeah. It's

sometimes feel quite strongly. When I'm giving a workshop and people get really tired to writing notes on my recipes and members, let everybody quit the recipe huddle ways, sisters, we weren't taught to read and write until the end. Like until very recently in history, we were the last. We don't need to listen to the story, touch the food, smell it and taste it. You're going to remember it it back come back into your DNA. You know, this is storytelling. How else do we have the recipes? We weren't taught to read and write until recently. Where did they come from? They came from mums and grandmas and aunties and people who cared for us, and we pass them down. So listen, they hear my class. Look at the nights when you get home. Because being present and sharing a story, that's what we need to do. So if you're drawn to something, teach it like that, is what I think we've got a lot of power that we have been made really masculine, you know, but when you be like, hang on a minute, how do we even get this far? Beautiful. So I feel I feel like when you find what you know is good. It comes easier to share. Yeah. It's good for you and good for your community. Yeah. Oh, I

love that and just go with your gut. Just trust it. Oh,

I love that. Oh,

I'm gonna go in. You know, nourish myself now with some kimchi and some love. Thank you so much. What a beautiful conversation. I just, I just love your I just love that shop so much. And I love you and your books and the products and just the whole philosophy. It's just wonderful. So thank you so much again, you can learn more about Sharon momentary.com.au. Isn't she fabulous? What a fun conversation. Go with your gut is the big takeaway for me, not only with your health with better gut health and the extraordinary healing power of fermented foods, but trusting your intuition about what you want to put out into the world. That's what she does. She just trusts herself. Even if it doesn't feel right, she changes course. And the other big takeaway for me was sharing your story. That's what she does in every part of her life. And the power of getting in the kitchen with other people sharing food stories and techniques and cooking and communion with others, and the power of how that brings people together, and how it's an essential. It's an essential ingredient in your food journey. And the big takeaway that's going to be etched in my heart is do what you're drawn to. That's what the world needs from you.