DIRECTING AUDIOBOOKS: Storytelling from the Inside Out | 085

Oh, Paula, we get to have one of our fantastic conversations. And dear listener, you get to curl up on the couch with us and hopefully feel like you're having lunch with us. So Paula, I want to start with where your love of story came from. Was it as a child?

Well, yes, I believe it was my mother and I, we used to sing together. I can remember, three years old and I had a repertoire that included stranger in paradise. I'll be down to get you in a taxi, honey. Better be ready by half past eight, and my friend's parents would give me a quarter,

and I was a four year old girl, and I was amassing these quarters. And so my love of story and performance, and my mother would always tell me stories, which she would which we did with our son later, which she would put my name in the story, saving the day, etc.

And so is that what made you want to go and study theater and make it your vocation?

Yes, yeah, I was, I was always dramatic, you might say. And no, it started for me in the seventh grade. And what happened in seventh grade? Well, I was cast in a production of little Abner that we did at my junior high. And I'm from the state of Illinois, and Illinois has very developed theater

programs in all their schools, starting in Junior High in high school, every year in high school, we did a bus and Truck Show. There was state competitions in which I won an all state cast when I was a senior in high school. But it really started when I was three years old, singing stranger in

paradise with hand motions and everything and so yeah, and there's nothing better to me in terms of what you can read, etc, books, etc, but a good play. Because when you have a good play, you need very little other than good actors, of course, but, but the play itself and maybe a surprise or two prop.

But you know, I love black box theater.

I do too, you and I have many a time sat on your couch talking about the glory of the black box. What was the first really good play that you remember reading going, Oh, this is all we need.

Let me see, actually, it was, it was our town, and I felt that that's really all that you need, is, I don't know, maybe some desks, some chairs, and as it would happen, I saw a production in a black box by the by the great director, years later, by the great director, David Cromer,

and he always puts in a surprise. So there you were in a black box theater on Christopher Street in the West Village, and with some wonderful actors that that we knew and we came to know, and there were some desks and some chairs. And then I forget, like in the third act, I forget where it is exactly. But

all of a sudden you smelled bacon. You said, Wow, where is this restaurant? You know, this restaurant is? They don't have very good ventilation, and the curtain was pulled in the back of the theater. You thought maybe there were just props and stuff in the back there, there was an entire kitchen, and they

were cooking breakfast, and they were making bacon and eggs, and that was David Cromer's surprise in this particular production.

Oh, so you were in the kitchen with them having breakfast, just sensorially.

Yes, exactly. Oh, so was that

your first experience of really bringing the audience in as a participant? Because I know that you and I talk about this a lot. This is big for you.

Yes, it is. It absolutely is. I think that the audience is right beside you. And I think that if you as a performer and as an audio book narrator, if you don't consider them, you are losing half of the of the dynamism of your performance. And that's why, as I have read recently, and we

talked about Nathan Lane is going to play Willy Loman, and there's going to be a huge theater in which they are going to remove some of the seats so that the audience can be closer to this play, to this performance. And we also have talked about before where Jessica Chastain, who has a huge

emotion. The life, she would cut out the audience, and if somebody coughed, she would get mad. And then in her recent production, a couple of years ago, a doll house, she would go at half hour, when most actors are just relaxing and ready to go on stage, she would go out at half hour and watch as the

audience came in. And so and I saw that, and it did draw me closer to the play. And there was very few props, and it was they used the brick of the back of the house, I mean, the stage. And you know that that was it. And when you have just essential props, it brings the action and makes so much more of an impact.

So that when at the end of the place she walked out, literally, of the theater, yeah, you could hear everybody, oh, you saw, I know you saw too, yeah, everybody just went,

Yeah, you know. And you felt like you had lost her as well. Yeah, exactly yes, exactly yes. So what was the it has to be me to go into drama school to be a part of this. I want to be breathing this, and I want to be part of this storytelling process.

Sure, it's like when I did bus and trucks every year. We had a director in high school and for the he was not for the vulnerable personality, because it's a very tender age, and a lot of kids would be directed by him, and then they would leave the plays because they couldn't take it. And he

taught me more about theater than probably anybody I've ever worked with. And I I stayed there because I was getting something that I wanted, and I got it because I'm a small girl woman, I had red hair, and it was, you know, I had red hair, I'll say a lot of times I was not thought of first. And I said

to myself, you hang in there, and you will be thought of. And I was, and the same thing happened when I went to college. I got a scholarship to Southern Illinois University, and when I was a senior, I was directed. I was, like almost 22 years old. I was directed by Maria pescader, who was the wife of Erwin

pescader, who was Bertolt Brecht, was the best man at their wedding, part of the Berliner ensemble. And it happened that this show then went to the Public Theater. And I did, you know was a short run at the Public Theater, but I was there when Al Pacino was doing the basic training of Pablo

Hummel, the show that introduced al world. And so that shows how far back I go, fabulous.

I want to go back a little bit to what you were saying before about that he taught you, more than anything anybody else. What did he teach you the

discipline of theater, and that when you're acting, when you're rehearsing, you just don't walk through it. When you rehearse, you go through the performance like you were performing it. Every time you come up on that stage, you use the same kind of energy because, you know, I've worked

with with actors that, and it's fine, it's the way they work, it's the way they learn things. But I would always learn line, you know, before I was rehearsing, I would always put every bit of energy into the rehearsal of the particular thing I was doing. And I, you know, everybody works

differently, but that's how I got the most out of it, and that if he spoke to you, he would call me Parker all the time, you know, Parker, did you do this? Parker, did you do that? You know? And because the world is tough and the world of theater is tough, and I think he wanted to make us understand that from

the beginning. And his name was Sam Phillips. And you know, when I think back of that time, I mean, it was a great learning time, definitely.

And, oh, so you and Paul, you meet Paul?

Yes, I met Paul. I met Paul. I was in Southern Illinois, Illinois University, and in the summertime, they had a rep company, and he was a guest artist, and everybody wanted to be his friend, because he's so funny. It's funny. And I don't know, he hung around with tequila a couple times. But

anyway, you know he is, you know, we're both small people. My son calls us the wedding cake couple. But anyway, she got fit on top of the wedding cake. Okay, thanks. Thanks a lot kid. So when he was painting scenery one day, I didn't know him, and I saw him from far away, and he had a very big mustache. So I

said, Hmm, I thought he was a town boy. Said, that's a very big mustache for such a young boy. And then I saw him coming out of the theater one day, and I said, Oh, you're a lot older than I thought you were. And his friend said, No. He said to his friend, who's that? And then all of a sudden. And everywhere I

went, there he was, there he was. I was at the water fountain. He was in back of me. I was in the theater. There he was. I was painting scenery. He was getting a brush next to me.

Something happened. I feel like wearing one of those vignettes for When Harry Met Sally. Now,

yeah, and we were together. We've been together ever since.

Oh, and what a glorious partnership it is. So you decide it has to be me. We're moving to New York City, where the action is, where all this great theater is.

I mean, we were, we were in Chicago, where I'm from, and, you know, I had inner, you know, auditioned around there. It was before the time of Steppenwolf and all that was dinner theater, really, yeah, and some very good dinner theaters and, and I was getting close to things, you know, it's

always numbers. Of course, if you have the abilities, you have the type, it's always number, numbers. So, anyway, he always wanted to move to New York, and he was also working with second city at the time, and there was a couple of opportunities there, but he we did want to move to New York. I always wanted to

move to New York. So we did in the summer of 74 so that's that's a ways back. That's before the Upper West Side came became the multi million dollar when bullets were still flying on Columbus Avenue and and we had, we got this beautiful, he went by himself, this beautiful apartment on Horatio Street.

Horatio, you've told me about this. Yeah, it was gorgeous today. The actors, Cherry Jones lived there, and it's still the same super but it turned into a cloth. And, you know, it was a beautiful apartment because it had a lot of different corners, yeah, where you could have flowers in one corner. It was a

lovely way to start a life in New York. And I got a job with a publisher that Paul knew, and also her husband was the agent for miles David and Willie Nelson and Waylon Jennings, yeah, so there I was as a young Midwestern girl working in the office of Miles Davis, Willie Nelson and Wayne Jennings,

and take me inside when you started to do so many voice overs, where that became a really big part of your world, that then became the beginning of moving into producing all of this stuff for audio,

right, right? I had a very young voice that was good for children's things. I also had been auditioning, you know, in those days, and probably still today, but not as much. You could make a very, very lot of money if you had a good agent. And so there were some almost with some really

good representation for me. And I had met someone that I started to do film dubbing. And I dubbed cartoons. I dubbed a movie, a feature that Victoria Victoria destika had directed, and you made really good money from sag AFTRA when you dubbed films. So that was part of it. And then through that, I met other

people. And I would do children's cassettes. On cassette, I was Shira, the princess of power for a while. And then, you know, do do other things that what led to English learning, English as a second language learning, because it's a big market here. Yeah, and and then meeting just a lot of other

people in that subset of a voiceover. And that's, that's how that happened,

yeah, and where did the teaching fit into it? Because you really are a gifted teacher, being able to impart knowledge to others and being able to facilitate, you know, an actor's journey through something in a lot of different ways, and that's what makes you such a fantastic director. Where

did that skill first get cultivated in you, where you started to teach? Was it at the Academy of Dramatic

Yeah, yeah. I worked for, you know, a couple of three years at the American Academy of Dramatic Art, which they now call ADA. And I think when I was interviewed, I think they wanted a personality, person that would be gentle, that would be gentle with egos, that could impart knowledge and

and I think that, yeah, you know, the day is for them and not for you. And that's how I work all the time. I remember I was American Idol. Had this heartthrob from the foul and he was doing his I mean, they voted for him a gazillion times, and that was. One of the reasons that he won? Well, I don't know,

but probably. Anyway, I went down to record his memoir, and I remember when they when they set me down there, somebody had said, and I took this as a compliment. Well, she won't bring her ego in when she walks in. Oh, it is a compliment, absolutely, yeah, I took it as such, and and that's what I try

to do. And, yeah, so, so I taught at Ada, and I some of my students went on, you know, they had some great careers, and I was very proud to see them do that on soap and in comedy and things like that. And I still teach when I direct audio books, it's a, it's a, it's a form. It's a form of teaching. Of

course it is.

Yeah, you learn by doing, too, and you learn by working with great people, and you learn by watching other great actors. You learn by being in the booth, by being on stage. You just, you learn to, you know, that old adage of good actors borrow, great actors steal, and then you make it your

own, you know. And yeah, whoa. I like their work ethic, or I like the way that they their attack, or the way that they take direction. Or, you know, could be so many things well, but

I yeah, I just wanted to say, and I did leave that aspect of teaching because I wanted to, you know, just work for myself and do my own things. And, yeah, and that's

what took you out of teaching at that time at the academy, because I remember you telling me about the showing versus telling, right? And then after a time, you kind of went, you know what? Yeah, I don't want to be a part of that particular dynamic, so just take the inside of that, because I

think it's really fascinating.

Yeah, when I when my students, when I started to show them, get up on on, you know, in class and show them, rather than helping them come to find it, and and rather than working with them till they found it, I was showing them, and I said, You know what? You can't do that. That's not really

teaching. And so I had to decide what it was that I wanted to continue to do for myself and,

and what was that at that time?

Well, still, still audition and and pursue acting, and I did some off Broadway shows. Paul, at that time, had written a play, and it was produced off Broadway. Yeah, I had a very good role in that. And I did a play about suffragettes. It wasn't golf. It was not that. It was, I don't

want to have people get confused, you know, but it was a play about about suffragettes and suffrage of the musical, and it was great. And then a couple of other things, you know, I never hit the Great White way, but, you know, I had some nice experience, yeah,

well, you and me both, right? You and I have talked about this a lot, you know. And it is, it is interesting, where you find the place that lights you up within it. And you have so many different skill sets that when you and Paul decided to start this company and then worked in

IT for 20 years, you know, doing all of this incredible audio production, long before audio books were the huge things that they are today, you're very instrumental in really, you know, laying that community and being part of it and being part of it and cultivating it in New York City. What did you learn

from working on those projects and producing and directing and being part of how the sausage was made, so to speak. Yeah.

Well, what I learned was that every time I got up to direct someone, my my prior knowledge enabled me to think on my feet, and when I when I was thinking, and still am thinking on my feet, it, it distills itself to other things that that as having done this for 2025, years, I know to work.

Shall I say? I know to be true in that particular instance. And you know, mostly, mostly, I'm happy for the people when they get work. I know this might sound pollyannish, but I am. And the fact that so many people now can can do audio books, can make a living at it, and maybe they don't have to be waitresses or

bartenders anymore. And so that feeling every time somebody gets into the booth, I I am, I feel happy for them, and I want them to have a good day, and I want them to feel confident and comfortable, I want them to learn and yeah, that that that makes my day, and that those are things that I learned. Because,

you know, as an actor, one can be envious at times, and when you're young. You're striving for this and that, and blah, blah, blah. And the famous phrase when I was younger was, Oh, how did you get that? And you're thinking to yourself, how did I get that? I wasn't set up for that, you know? And so then

when you have your own thing that speaks to you and is close to who you are, then you know that has long, long, long, long, left me long. And what I want to do is impart that good feeling about about what there you're doing to them, and it's never, I never. I help them seek and then find. Even though you know when

you seek, it takes more time, no you can seek in that moment and you can find what works better. I always say, let's see what this sounds like when I'm correct. You know, when I'm giving a direction to someone. I point them at a direction. I say, let's see what this sounds like, not like, Yeah, I do it

like this, you know. And, and, yeah. So, so, you know, when we had our business and I was working with talent, and I was casting talent, because, though I don't do it much anymore, back in the day, we did cast a lot of things because we were, yeah, they enabled us to do that, and I brought a lot of good people

into the business. I think I have a pretty good ear and so

that, oh, I think you've got a pretty good ear, Paula,

and that made me happy too. You know, what are

you wanting to hear like when you're listening to an actor, you're casting things, yeah, yeah. And also as a director now, and just as a listener, as an audience member. What are you looking to hear that captures your heart and your imagination that said, Yeah, I'm going to pick that

person.

Okay, first of all, we would bring in voices that probably were fit who the protagonist did, and then I listen, if they're telling me the story and not using their voice. In other words, you have to speak. But as somebody I'm very close to says the voice can't act. And so if they tell

the story with the feelings under the word, because words themselves represent ideas. You don't have to help them with that. They mean what they mean.

But Paul always says that doesn't he. Don't help me. Don't help me.

That's right, that's right, but you have to let the words help themselves, and you help the feeling under the word. And so I think once, once someone understands that, then they can just go from what is happening in the scene and let the emotion come out from there. You know that they are

connected to what's going on underneath. So it's

like what you were saying about Jessica Chastain having a rich emotional life. Yes, yes. You're looking for people that have their inside the story, right, right?

And are connected to it. And a lot of times, you know, okay, so what does that connection mean? And so we tried, I try, to impart that to them about words having ideas. Don't help the words they mean what they mean. British actors are so good at that they just let the word stand for what it

stands for. They don't beat it over the head. They're not too emotional. They just give what's going on. And that's what I listen for. Do they give what's going on? Do they bring me into the story? Do they put their arm around me? Is it intimate feeling? And that's, what. And you know, you know, just like

when you go out with somebody, if you know you're going to have a second date, you know,

so what? What repels you? Where you're like, don't want any second date with you,

yeah, yeah. If they're just, if they're too loud, you know, in terms of audiobooks, if they're too loud if, if they haven't defined the medium for themselves, because, no, tell me what you mean by that. Exactly. Okay? Do they okay? You are telling a story to someone they're across right

across from you, and are you taking that into consideration? Are you being too big? Because it doesn't matter who's listening to you, if you're being too big, if you're stage acting in an audio book that can't go because A, you're not connecting, and B, you're not considering. Saying who you're

speaking to. Because, yeah, audio book performance is a lot like film, you know, yes, very, very and stage acting is totally different. And there's, there are those who would say, Well, no, it's not, but yes, it is. But, you know, I can go into that in another time. So, yeah, so they have to have the basic

of what I feel the basic stuff going to begin with, because I don't know if, when you're when you're, you know, trying to cast someone, you can't do all the teaching of everything. Because, I mean, do they have a basic ABC set of skills to begin with, yeah, and then you can, you can hear that. You can really hear

that.

So the it does not have to be me anymore, moment when you and Paul sell the business, and then you stay on for a couple of years, and we're very instrumental in growing that business. What was that like for you? That transition where you weren't the owner anymore, but you were still a

custodian. Yes, this journey, yeah.

You know, at that time, growing the business meant that I had to find places that I could bring it to verbally, so that I could grow it. So, as I did when Paul and I owned it, I went to conventions. I sought out groups that, for instance, I grew the educational wing of the business that we had started. So

I went to educational business, educational conferences. And you know, when you have something good, I don't have a problem telling people about it. A lot of people have problems picking up telephones, talking to people. When you have something good, I don't have a problem with telling people about it.

And so I was able to to grow the business in to the young man that we sold it to in a very significant way, very

significant, very stuff of legends. Now, yeah,

I was very proud of that, too. And that's, you know, that's another, another skill set that that you're exercising. I remember I was at one convention, and romance is a very big genre in audiobook. And I went to the, I always ask for the decision maker, so one of the vice presidents of what is

the big romance, Harlequin. Harlequin there. So, you know, I told narrated books for Harlequin. Yeah, really. I told her who I was, what my company did. This was when Paul and I still owned it. And she said, Oh, no, our listeners would take it's very private thing, reading our romances. They would never

listen to someone else telling the story. And usually I'm more aggressive than that. And I said, Oh, okay. Well, thank you. What that goes into Paula, I knew, but anyway, you know she was, she was a big deal, but hopefully she doesn't have her job today. I don't know. Oh, go. Was she wrong? Unbelievable,

unbelievable. Wow, that was just one instance. Yeah. What's coming

up for me, as I'm listening to you, is this skill set that you have of advocating and championing other people. Yeah, you celebrate and elevate people like nobody I have ever seen. Oh, thank you. It is a superpower of yours. So where did that come from? How did that get cultivated? Because I think

it's a beautiful skill, and you do it so well and and very gently, as you pointed out, you don't rule with an iron fist, so to speak.

You know, I think I've always been like that. I don't know I remember, yeah, I remember. I I majored in Speech and Drama in college, and I thought I was going to be, for a while, a Speech and Drama teacher in high school, and so I did in my next door, my town next door, I did my student

teaching, they call it, and I put on a show, and one of the girls in the show, we became Friends, and she wasn't too much younger than me, because I was very young when I student taught, and I followed her. She became an opera singer, and when she was when it was hard for her to, you know, get placed in and

know about things around town, I made sure that she knew about where they were having opera, at some restaurants on different days and and that was a long, long time ago. But you know, every time back in the day when I was an actress and I had to do part time jobs to to keep up my auditioning habit, I worked for

a lot of different people, and it. There was a play a few years ago that a young woman wrote, called blown sideways through life, when she talked about all of her part time jobs. Well, you know, I could say the same thing at one time. I had, there was Paul's cousin. He had four cousins in the room at one time.

And I could it. I could attach somebody. They wanted to do this and that and the other thing. And I knew people in every one of those fields, from the part time jobs that I had, I had done. And so it was, it felt good for me to be able to do that. It still does. Because, you know what? It takes so

little, it takes so little to do, and

means so much to the recipient.

Yes, exactly, and, and if it works out great, and if it doesn't, you know, it doesn't mean that it wasn't tried. And that's, yeah, that's how I feel. It makes me feel good, you know, I can. It's like giving something, you know, you're not giving money or but you're giving your thought, a

little bit of your time and a lot of your hope.

Oh, I love that hope. Oh, hope, and love the two most powerful forces in the world. So you were wearing all these different hats, growing your own business and then helping grow the business that you sold in an extraordinary way. And then you transitioned into full time directing. And so

what was that like for you, that it has to be me? Yeah, this is actually what I'm meant to be doing. This lights me up, yeah?

Well, you know, I had directed when we owned the businesses a lot, and then, when a friend passed on to another producer that I was freelance, the time had come for me to be on my own. I was hired right away, and I've been hired. I've been hired ever since. And I, you know, I really enjoy it,

because I really impart the the knowledge and the skill that I have. I really enjoy imparting the knowledge and the skill that I have in a way that is not overbearing, that is not intrusive, but yet the actor understands the parlance with which I am giving that direction. And there's nothing

better than to have a willing actor, narrator, to work with you, and you giving them a direction, and then, then they turn it into gold. And it's very satisfying. I believe it to be satisfying for them, and it certainly is satisfying for me.

It is glorious when you collaborate in that way. I remember you said something to me a long time ago that great actors want to be ridden like stallions.

You know, horses want to be ridden for sure. And a great actor, yes, they want that. They want, they want to be directed. Every actor wants to be directed for the most part, I think, and then they want a director that knows the language to communicate with them and go back and forth like that, and

have the whole the whole experience be like that.

Yeah, I want to ask you about one of the God you've told me so many stories over the years that are so incredible, but one of the ones that really stuck with me, and I asked Paul about this as well, was the Michael J Fox story, yeah, when you directed him, and then you ended up winning the

Grammy for that beautiful book.

And Paul tells his version of the story about how he, you

know, he took his foot off the pedal, you know, because Michael J Fox had Parkinson's and, you know, he was surrounded by all these minders, and he was a lot more gentle and different than he would normally be with an actor who didn't have a disability, whereas you rode him like a

stallion. And so tell me about that for you, because we've heard about Paul's experience with that. What was that like for you, where you just went? I'm going to treat him like any other actor, and he loved it.

Yeah, yeah. He was a prince of Othello. I'll just say that up front. And you know, the minders had been either at lunch or something like that, and it was just me and Michael and I treated him like any other actor. And absolutely, he took the direction we just Egypt went. And, you know, if there

was something that I wanted to try a different way, I would ask him, he did. We would select what, you know, what sounded the best in that particular instance, and went from there. And it was a great experience.

Paul tells the funny story about how when it was time to say goodbye, he was like chopped liver. And you know, Michael was 40, all over you, because he felt like you were instrumental in making the book better. Yeah.

So yeah, you know, it's What can I say sometimes? And I. I give him all the credit for that, of course, but sometimes it's still a man's world, you know,

and you still have me about what that's been like for you.

You know, it's fine. I mean, none of my nearest and dearest that you know that isn't no but one year, I was up for audio, I think it won audio book of the year, and then I was up for directing a multicast which did not but my name wasn't given. It was all Paul's Rubin production.

Yeah, I remember you telling me that story, yeah. What did that feel like?

I didn't like it, of course, but, but, you know, people knew who directed it, so, so that was okay, but I didn't want to make a big deal of it, but I wish that it would have been Paula Parker for Paul Ruben production, or something like that.

What's it like for you being in a partnership with with somebody else that looms so largely in the community?

Yeah, you know, I'm I'm not a jealous person. And I really Paul, my husband, Paul Rubin, is probably the most disciplined person I've ever known. I have to catch up a lot and and I really admire his discipline. I admire how he works with narrators. And I have my own thing. I have my own way.

And so for me not to give him all of the stage when he's there is that would be very short sighted. And I think that we respect each other very much, and I think that's, you know, one of the attributes to our relationship. And I don't know, in terms of Paul, I've never been envious, because we both do

what we do in terms of, well, I

think also you're both collectively, you know, I mean, it's not in dispute. Known as the two best audiobook directors in the world, and all the top narrators clamor to work with you, rave about working with you. And the very big narrators that I know and friends with, obviously, they're

mutual friends of ours, just talk about your style in particular, how it's like, drawing it out of you, inviting it out

of you, is what they say. I like that. I like that. Yeah, because that's what I would that

that's and that you're dancing. When you work with Paula, you dance with her, is what they all say. Or a version of that

I love, because dancing is my favorite thing.

I thought you would love hearing that.

Wow, yeah, I love it. I have to invite invited out of you.

I love that. Wow. Yeah, it's beautiful. It's beautiful. And so when you and Paul go to these audiobook events with narrators, I know that's one of your favorite things to do every year, is go to these events. You look forward to it. It's such a beautiful community of people

really supporting each other. It's glorious. What do you love about being on those panels, talking to actors, sharing what you know and what you're what you're continually discovering.

What I love is trying new things. I want to help them, whether they are trained actors or not, there is an actor. If they weren't actors in some way, they wouldn't be there. How do you wake up in the morning and say, Oh, I think I'll narrate audio books. I mean, I'm sure there are people,

but most of the people I talked to, they were either in school plays or da, da, da, and they have buried this little acorn inside themselves, and now it's time for the acorn to grow into an oak. And so I talked to them like they were actors, and they love it, and so I bring things to them that they normally

wouldn't get in, perhaps a narration, a coaching session. I treat them like actor. I tell them how to get inside. I'm working on this the language all the time so that they can help connect and reconnect, so that, you know, when they're in their home studios and they have to punch and roll and they have to

go back and punch themselves into where they were, you know, how do you set yourself up again to connect to the stuff, and not just, I always call, I call it oral. Interpret, are you acting? Are you? Are you? Are you connected? Are you in the feeling underneath the words? Are you letting the words carry

their own ideas, or are you giving me oral interpret and they laugh because they understand, they know, they know. And so I'm working on different language to help them reconnect all the time and not look at a piece and think. One thing only. Oh, this is that. Oh, this is that. No, this line

is this. This line is that you can't just put one little banner over the top. Oh, this is about the best recipe my grandmother ever made. No, this is about you discovering that recipe in a box of recipes when she passed away, and you were going through her things, and I get this out of them, and they can't believe it.

And and I, you know, I love that. I love making a narrator, or anybody an actor, and that's what I like.

And then the audience is right there with you. They can smell the box, they can see the books. They can touch the paper. They can see the handwriting. They know what it looks like. They can smell it. I mean, once you have it, you can bring us with you. And it's so extraordinary. Tell me

about the breath because I know that this is something you've always been connected to, and you've really been revisiting this lately about breath work and being on the breath. And I know you're a link later. Kristin, Linklater fan, like I am, yeah, yeah. What are you discovering and rediscovering

about that in terms of being a human being and being an actor, right?

Well, you know when you act, you know how you'll see somebody, and they'll in a scene somewhere, and they'll they'll break the breath that takes you out of the moment you take the breath. You don't break the breath, even when you're when you're doing a scene in a narration. And when you

breathe, you have to take time to breathe. Your listener will breathe with you. You have to believe this. Your listener does what you do. They breathe with you. And so what I'm trying to do now is I'm trying to and I'm doing a very bastardized version of this. So anybody who is into link ladder and they're hearing

me, please forgive me, because I'm getting more into it, but I want to get the narrator and any actor out of their head, out of their head, and into their gut. And so Christian link letter says you put a brain in your lips and you put another one in your gut. In other words, you know, right, right about your

midriff around there. And then you, what I tell the actor, the narrator, is, you don't want to have any more voice. You want to use less voice to make an intimate then, is wider than the width of your skull, because I was trying to give them a place, a geographic place to go to. Because, okay, a singer has all

kinds of geography to place, in the palette, in your nose, in, you know, in the front of your mouth, a singer has all kinds of places to place their voice and then act the song from there. Okay, where does the actor place their voice? That's what I'm trying to get at. And I'm going to be studying in this more this

year. And so when I asked them to do that, and then, you know, I directed them in the different version of finding the grandmother's recipe. They they they allowed themselves to get out of their head and the feelings under the words and what every line, what they could discover. And then, before they

started, take a big breath and let the feelings out on that breath. And what they discovered was it was pretty magical to them,

because there was something about embodied performance, as opposed to a talking head speaking into a microphone.

Yes, oh, my God, and it's and I tell them, it's harder than oral interpret. They laugh. It's harder. And when you have, you know a row of six books that you have to get, it's hard and you're going to be tired, but I want you to have a satisfying experience, and I want your listener to have a

satisfying experience. And this really happened, I want your listener to get a speeding ticket because they were so involved in listening to the book. And that happened to one of our clients. She wrote to us, and she said someone took performance. Was so good, it was so great that I got a speeding

ticket

because I was on the train with them, hearing you, I'm thinking about how we want to be moved. Oral, Interp, yes, gymnastics, it might impress you, but it doesn't move you, right? I. And story is about experience. Yeah, it's not about words, it's not about themes, it's not about oral

interprets, not about intellectualizing things. It's about feeling. Am I moved by this? Am I invested? Am I forgetting that I'm not the character right now? That's the thing. I mean, that's the great storytelling does, doesn't it? So this, this breath work that you're talking about, and giving

an embodied, full, rich performance and sharing that with the listener so that they feel it

too. Yeah, I have to,

oh, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Go please. Yeah.

I mean, you know, you have to look at the personality you're dealing with.

Oh, see you and I are in simpatico right now, because this is exactly where I was going to how do you get somebody there?

Yeah, yeah, somebody that is very controlling, and does audio books, but is very controlling. I do it line by line when I'm trying to coach them, and I also tell them that it would behoove them to take an acting class. And we just do it over and over again in these sessions, in

these conferences I go to until the feeling is there for them now, they said, I've never, I've never felt this before. I've never done this before. And just using those images, you know, the brain two places, no more, no more voice than the width of your head, you know, where is the geographic locale, so that

you can go back for narrators, in particular, in the home studio, where they don't have directors, mostly you know where, where can you locate your voice out of your head, so that then you can let the words carry the ideas and you just do the feeling underneath, and taking the breath and not breaking the

breath. And, yeah, I wish, I wish there wasn't an easier prescription. And I'm working and working and working on it. And this is in particular for narration, in particular. I mean, art isn't

easy, though. Like, I remember I told you this story, you know, when I was rehearsing the comeuppance, you know, and Gary Abrams was directing, and he's tough, brilliant director, but tough. And at the end of rehearsal, you know, and particularly if it was a really tough day, you know,

and people would be crying or upset or deflated, or whatever it might be, or just exhausted, he'd go, Yeah, it's hard making theater, isn't it? That's just how it was, right? And, yeah, it's hard, and then it's exhilarating, and and, you know, it's all the things. And, look, I feel the frustration, because

it's a double edged sword, isn't it? Going back to what you were saying before that, you know, Amazon buying audible and audiobooks getting so big, and actors being able to punch and roll and record from home without directors on their own. It gives all these people work, and we churn out, you know,

hundreds of 1000s of books, and yet a lot of them are really substandard in performance, because people aren't getting the kind of direction that you and Paul offer. There are very few directors that work the way that the two of you do so closely with actors. A lot of people that call themselves

audio book directors are basically just listening to see if someone missed a word or flubbed a line or mispronounced something. And it's really that kind of direction. It's not it's technical direction. It's not actually performance related direction. And then we've got a lot of people, in my opinion,

directing audio books that shouldn't be directing audio books,

but that's a conversation for another day.

But So you spoke about what you impart to willing actors, was the term that you used, which I love, willing actors that want to be better, want to experience the magic, want to catch the wave, so to speak, and be in the flow of the magic as we know we all want to be as actors. Yeah. What's it

like to not have a willing actor? So you work with a celebrity who thinks they know everything, don't want to be directed. I know you've been in those situations. What do you do there?

Well, you get the hint real quick. I had one One actress who was very contrary. And listen, the English language is very flexible. Things can be said a lot of different ways. But I've been sitting in this chair for over 25 years, and there is a way, in terms of the story you're telling that the

line lies the best on the ear, and I'm just sitting, listening, being entertained and hopefully working with you, but every time I give it was she was a con Troy. In contrarian, contrarian. She wanted to talk with me more about the problem she was having in her Co Op than she didn't want to hear from me. It was

like, You know what? Just send me the check. You know, it's kind of like that. And so I got the hint, so I didn't then I worked with her again. I thought, Oh, great, you know. Alright. Well, hey, I get paid regardless. So anyway, at the end, and it was a great book with a multicast at the end, she

said, Well, thank you very much for your help. Paula, Well, who am I? Mrs. McGillicutty, he never didn't bother to find out who I was.

Well, that's shame on her.

So it was like I said, Well, you're welcome and like that. And so, you know, you get those stories all the time, all the time, and you know, I don't take it personally, because for every one of those, I've had another one that has been bliss, you know, very, very excellent. One young woman lives

down the block from me. How coincidental. I could walk to her house and she requested me, and we, we had another wonderful time working together. And she and,

you know, listen, all the stallions request you because they want to be written and written and written and get better and better and catch another wave. I mean, you know, that's another thing people say, we you got to catch the wave, you know? And if you want to catch the wave, you need Paula

to do it, you know, it's, it's, it's extraordinary to have that reputation to be requested to be able to work with willing actors. I also know that you work with authors who are not actors, and particularly authors who've just written one book and they're going to narrate it themselves. How is that

different, in terms of modulating how you would communicate and work with

somebody, right? Right? Well, I tell them how I'm going to work in terms of what they've written. If they change a word, I'll consult you. And if you say it's okay as it is, our engineer will put author okay. But my job when working with authors is to make them feel comfortable, to make them feel

confident in what they've written. And I'm telling you, some of the best books I've ever done have been the author. Author reads. They don't read their own fiction a lot. I've only come across two that they were actors before they were authors. So they let that, they give that to a to an actor. But,

you know, non fiction, self help, etc, and we have a great time. Because I want them to understand that what they've written imparts really good knowledge, and that I'm getting a lot from it because, because I am and and then I try to help them. You know, listeners want to hear the author, and they do

100% and so, you know, we're going to make this the best we possibly can, because they're waiting to hear from you, and,

oh, I love that they're waiting to hear from you. Oh, gosh, I'm going to put that on a sticker, yeah,

and that because they are and, you know, and they, I think that I feel that make them feel very comfortable. And I think that it's a really good program. And I work with them, in essence, like I work with the actors you know, in terms of the intimacy you know, one to one, that listener who's

been waiting for you wants to hear from you, so please just talk directly to them, and they get it. You know, they're smart people. They get it.

There is this misconception that with non fiction, they're just basically text books, and that there isn't a story there or a natural arc. And I vehemently disagree with that. No, I think that non fiction books can be utterly compelling, and that there are characters within a non fiction

framework. So how do you find your way into that with with an author or a narrator tackling, well, what would seemingly be dry non fiction material.

For example, when they are quoting like clients, they say the author's a therapist, and when they when they tell you the scene and the names, of course, have been changed, but when they're quoting clients, you know, we don't we do sometimes, and I would confer with the producer,

we just do a little teeny vocal difference, just a little bit, not much. And that seems to be the way it is across the board. And you know, because it sounds weird, you know, you're the therapist. This is my client, Robbie, and Joan and blah blah blah blah blah blah. And then Robbie, you know, I'm

exaggerating, but it's that just that just doesn't work, that doesn't work. And I'm telling you, it's it. It sounds funny, but it really kind. Just takes care of itself. Because I have, I've really never done a stinky non fiction author read I like them all. I found a little Pollyanna. Well, I

mean, I think that's because you turn them, you turn them into things that are not stinky, because you polish them, you finesse them, you work with them, you know, I mean, that's just one of your superpowers. What about going back to to what I was saying before, about a non willing

actor, yeah, or narrator, whatever we want to call them, yeah, yeah, who just doesn't want to be directed, who thinks that they know it all, and we know, we know that there are people out there like this, whether it's a famous celebrity, because I know you work with a lot of those you know, who just

doesn't think that you've got much to offer and that you're just there to give a few technical notes or something, or to facilitate. I don't know what they think, but because I'm not of that ilk. But what do you do then?

Well, I just probably focus on the technical aspects.

Really. You just give over. You surrender to that. I

kind of do because, you know, you know, it's your name as well as the actor. And what you don't want to have happen is somebody giving you a bad mark? I mean, I was a very good student, okay, I'll come out and say it, but the same time, you don't want somebody go back to the

publisher and say, you know, he they did not have a very good experience, because this will happen, and really

you still care about that, with the reputation that you have. Okay, yeah,

yeah, because, yeah, because the author is. And when you're working with the author, they are, they are. They pay everybody's check, you know, and you don't, and, and, and that that was, that was a little crass, but publishers, they, they, they want to protect their authors.

Oh, you mean feedback from an author when it's an author read, oh yeah, but Oh yeah, okay, so what? No, okay, no, no, this is an important distinction. Yeah, yeah.

And then the actor, I mean, if they didn't like the way you worked in some form or fashion, they have no problem telling their agent. And then sure, and then the would, what would report back to the producer.

And then, do you care as much about that as the authors,

yeah, because, you know, what's the first thing, they place the blame if somebody said, you know, and but at the same time, I don't want somebody to have a Bad experience. So if I'm there to to guide technical aspects. Then I'm there to guide technical aspects if they don't want to hear from me, you know,

I don't take it personal. Yeah, there is a wonderful, wonderful actress. I love her very much. She is a heck of a person in the booth. She changes color, and I'm actually changes attitude, and I know I am not to direct her, but if I see around the street, Paula, how are you in the booth? She said to me once,

there's a 400 page children's book. I don't know what. I forget what it was. He said, I read the first five pages, and I know exactly what the book is about. You know, you know, I don't want to be stopped Paula. I will do this 400 page book in two and a half days. And I have a locomotive inside me that I

was born with, and, yeah, or something like that. But this is an extremely fine person. I like her very, very

much heartbreaking when the ego gets in the way of the beauty of the story. And we see this a lot, you know, in all mediums, you know, in entertainment, but I, I find it particularly vexing.

And you and I speak about this a lot. You know

you were talking about this locomotive, this speed, that faster is better. Getting it done more efficiently is better. And you know this, this world that we live in that absolutely is the message, isn't it, for with more achievement? Yes, you know different markers of success, and they're the only

ones that are of value, and that we're all operating with one currency and one currency only, even though we know that's not true,

even though, and that is because people don't have a lot of meaning in their life, too. That's one of the reasons,

yes, yeah. So it leads me into what I was going to ask. Ask you, yeah, yeah. About speed. This, this trend we have of people listening to audio books on double speed, or 1.6 or 2.5 or whatever people are doing because they want to hear things faster. And for a technical book where you just

want to get the information and be done, I can, I can maybe get along with that, but for actual narrative driven, story driven fiction, I don't understand that, because you're taking away from the white space and the the guts and the the natural engine and energy of the story. I find it quite heartbreaking. How do

you feel? I want to hear the white space and the breath and the pauses. I want to hear all of it.

Well, I tell my actors, my narrators, that, you know, obey the punctuation account. I mean, the listener has to catch up. You have to, you know, take a little beat for yourself, just a slight pause at the comma, full stop at the period, and then the story will will unfold that way. I mean,

the punctuation is your friend and and you can't go too fast. I said, if the audible listener, I'll just use Audible Yeah, wants to speed it up. That's their problem, not yours. So we cannot go too fast. And, and they, you know, I direct them into the pace. And, and it works. It really works. Now, if

the listener wants to do that, or I say, you know, if the editor does that, shame on the editor, but if listener does that, you have no control over that. And I don't know. They say they that way. They read more books.

I don't know, yeah. And you know, for me, more is just more always, yeah, you know, it's just, I'm all about quality, and I want to be right in there, in the present moment, feeling all the feels, and be in the caboose, you know, for the ride, you know. So that doesn't make any sense to me. Where do

you think the majority of narrators get tripped up the most?

I think it's stinging, because then everything sounds like I'm exaggerating. And this is what I say to actors when I show them the difference. I always say I'm exaggerating. Then everything sounds like Mary Had a Little Lamb. And you don't set any mood. It's the vocal placement.

So that you can begin at a lower at a lower voice range, because I know I say the voice doesn't act, but you can drop down a little bit and enter, and enter the paragraph in a way that you're not singing. And when you don't sing, it allows you to open up the emotion of what's going on in the scene. But when

you sing, and the sky was blue, and so yeah, that's where they get tripped up.

Do you think it's because the average person doesn't bring their vulnerability into the booth 100% you got to get into a vulnerable place to

drop down. That's right. I always tell them your booth is your sanctuary. You have to leave your social self outside of the booth. So however you take that off, you have to remove your social self, get into your booth naked, so to speak, and treat it as a sanctuary. And before you begin,

you know, take a deep breath. Know where you're going, but have the curtain. I use theatrical terms all the time theater, I said the curtain will rise and you'll go into it slowly, but you must know the mood you're setting and where you're going, etc. So that's what I try to tell them, to

remove their social self. And then when the bell rings and it's FedEx, you know,

I ah. I mean, it is such a crazy

concept, isn't it, sitting in a dark, little, tiny space, speaking into the ether, right? And you, and you can't think of it that way, because you are picking a person, you're speaking to a specific person.

Well, that's what Sylvester Stallone. Stallone says he does after all these years, when he's in a scene with somebody. He forms a relationship with them, cousin, neighbor, whatever it is in his

that is something I never thought I'd hear you do. Is quote Sylvester Stallone, either joke

Tulsa kings is supposed to be great.

I love it. Well, you know, I mean, it's one of our favorite memories, is when remember we were dear Katie kellgren, the great Katie kellgren's funeral. Katie, Yeah, mom. Memorial, and you and I were on the train going from talking about a high brow, you know, dossier literature, to

Poldark freaking out about Aidan Turner swishing through, you know, the the fields and and, you know, we what, what? Maybe one of the many things I love about our friendship is that it just bounces around to all parts of popular culture, to all these other places.

Well, listen, I work with a lot of young people. I got to know what the hell's going on. You know, that's me. That's me.

What is your favorite thing about working with young people? Because you do work with a lot of young actors, you know, and I've met some of them who were just like, oh man, she set me on my way. It's a beautiful thing. What do you love about working with these young people?

Well, I love, I love to see the innate ability. Now, everyone doesn't have innate ability. It can be brought but I love to see the innate ability, and I love to work with someone who has that innate ability, who has that imagination, because if you're going to be audiobook narrative,

you have to let your imagination fly free. And some people can't allow it to it's there, but you have to allow it. You have to open up your mind, to get out of your head and just let your and I, I love to see that. I love the innate ability, and then I love to hear good things that are happening for them because

of that innate ability,

and they're fresh and they haven't, they haven't taken on as many bad habits too. There's something about the rawness. There's something raw and quite simple about

very I was going to say, you know, life is hard, but it's also easy. And portraying life is hard, but it's also easy, if you let what's happening in the scene the book in that particular page, just let it happen. And we've talked about this before. When you watch an actor like

Billy Crudup,

the great Billy Crudup,

you watch the ease with which he portrays real life.

His instrument is so relaxed, very relaxed, and he allows the tension to be created in the scene, right by the circumstances, by the action, by the Yeah, exactly. It's extraordinary.

Just love, I love to watch it. And, yeah, so this is it. He plays it very simply, but he, he is true to what is going on, absolutely true to what is going on. So, yeah. I mean, a lot of philosophers say there is no truth, but I don't agree. Yeah. I mean,

what would you say to really experienced narrators who read a lot of books and they're maybe getting a bit stale, maybe getting a bit lazy, phoning it in, not finding the joy, the immediacy, being present, bringing their vulnerability into the booth, using the breath, dropping down,

right, all of the things we've been talking about, yeah, what do you say to them?

I would say, find it again. You have it's yours. You know, it is a paycheck, yes. But imagine if every actor that we saw, that we listened to, we saw on stage, we saw movies thought, thought that way. You know, no, you it's a privilege, and you need to treat it as a privilege. And I would say that

that's how I feel when I direct someone. It is a privilege. And I try to never forget that. That's what I would say, it's a privilege. And if you need to go back and get coached, like every athlete, most actors, you have to keep getting coached so that you can bring that joy, that feeling, that privilege, back.

And all you have to do is talk to, talk to somebody who's going to, who's going to, come on, come on guys, let's go. Let's go. Okay, hit them harder. Go to that. Run the basis, and you know, like that. You know

you're always in training, right? Because by the next year,

exactly, it just takes something with these people, these people. It just takes fluffing up again, you know,

yeah, and also the joy and the entertainment and the magic of the process of doing it. I think we, we end up getting. Being really focused on outcome. Wow, being in the moment.

I think that's a lot of, it's a habit of a lot of actors, is outcome. Yeah, everybody from you know, no matter how long they've been doing, is outcome. But it's like, what was I just going to say? I forgot. It'll come back to me. Yeah, but you don't, you don't want it to No, not the

outcome. But if

you know what's a, what's a book that you've worked on that you can recall where you were. You caught the wave, and it was magical, and you were right in there. And you, you there was just kinetic energy. You know, you were just cellularly moved by it. Yeah.

Well, there, excuse me, there's, there's a book I worked on, the 10th Anniversary Edition of American God, and it was a multicast. And there is an actor. He does a lot of voice notes, but he does a lot of Broadway. His name is Dan Oreskes, and he played the lead character. Guy has one name,

but, you know, with a guy like that, who is so connected, and his voice is magic, but he doesn't use his voice, he acts everything. And then the other, the other people that I cast in the different roles, I was able to cast everything and, and, yeah, I mean, I was in it to win it with all of the actors, and

they were there to win it with me, and it was up for the audio book of the year. And then I think Janice Ian won it. But, you know, it always goes to star, so yeah, but yeah, yeah, all those different characters. And you know, I'm not, it was Neil Gaiman's book, and you know that that's really not my kind

of read. But to work with all those actors in a book that is known worldwide was was a privilege.

Paula, I could talk to you about this all day long, and you and I will have many, many, many conversations on the couch, in the car, on the train,

in the theater, in a restaurant, wherever. I mean, I Yeah, it's

one of the great joys of my life. I always close every episode with the same question, which is, when you have a dream in your heart and you don't feel like you have what it takes to make it happen. What do you say?

I say that you do, and the only person, only thing, holding you back is you, and you have to do something, one thing, even if it's only one thing every day, to reach that dream. And you know, you can't give up. You can't give up as hard as it may be. And I watch some people, especially my husband, is a

writer, and he's written since the day I met him, and that's a very long time ago, and he's never given up. He's finished his second novel, and he's never it, you know, he just keeps going. I'll send it to this person. I'll do that. He never, he never, he never gives in to it. And so you can't give up.

You can't give in. You have to give get going, because a piece of it will come back to you, and you never know what form that may be in, so always keep it in your heart and because it's going to say to you, I'm here and you can do what you want with me, but I'm just telling you I'm here and I'm not going

to go away. So that's what I would have to say,

yeah, oh, I love you. Thank you for the way that Thank

you Ted and thank you. This was such a pleasure. I'm so happy that you invited me to

Oh, are you kidding me? I like I said to you, I think I did it selfishly because I wanted a recording of one of our amazing conversations. And there will be more. I hope so. I hope so.