How to Grow Your Business on Your Lunch Hour While in Your 9-5

When you're thinking about building out that runway, one of the first things I would say is what is your financial cushion? Right? So financial safety for a lot of people who already are high earners, like let's just be real, like the idea of leaving that comfort behind is not easy.

This is the Entrepreneur School Podcast where we believe you can run a thriving business and still make your family a priority. This show is all about supporting you the emerging or early stage Entrepreneur on your journey from solopreneur. To CEO while wearing all of the other hats in your life. My name is Kelly Sinclair and I'm a brand and marketing strategist who started a business with two kids under 3am, a corporate PR girl turned entrepreneur after I learned the hard way that life is too short to waste doing things that burn you out. On this show, you'll hear inspiring stories from other business owners on their journey, and learn strategies to help you grow a profitable business, while making it all fit into the life that you want. Welcome to Entrepreneur School.

Welcome Amy to Entrepreneur School.

Thank you so much. I'm super excited to be here.

We are talking to each other from opposite sides of the world on different days. It's a magical thing, to have the internet and to have found each other from different. What are we? What are we what's the north and south thing called Wow, hemisphere. We're not having a science conversation. So that's fine. We're gonna talk about business, we're gonna talk about business, growing a business starting a business in particular. So I'm really excited to chat with you about this. Because as I was saying to you, my entry into entrepreneurship was definitely unconventional. And it was sort of like a big huge life change where I lost my mom. And then I took time off of work and decided, What am I going to do now? And so that's when I started building up the idea of starting a business and transitioning that way. But I know that a lot of people are thinking about entrepreneurship in terms of an exit from a current job. And like, for whatever reasons, you know, I want more time freedom, I want more financial opportunity, all of the things and how, how does one do that too. Let's talk about navigating from nine to five to entrepreneurship.

Yeah, so let's just dive right in.

We're starting with we just go straight into it, people don't have time to listen to 45 minutes a small talk.

So I think for everyone, just like you said Kelly, it's like a different entry point. And even if you're in your nine to five, something's kicking up for you. And that's the part that I think that there's like, there's like, internal motivation that happens for people. For myself, I felt like a level of dissatisfaction that I really couldn't make sense of, because I had so much to be stoked about, like, I, I loved my work, I loved what I was doing, I was proud of my skills and experience, I delivered great work. And yet I couldn't shake this feeling that I was feeling drained by a lot of it. And I like you didn't have like the vibe of I'm going to become an entrepreneur to solve this. I never thought that was going to be my path either. But working with my clients, what often I do see is that, because I came from a corporate world, and I had a, like, you know, I had a lot of success, that the clients that I seem to attract are in a similar situation. There are knowledge workers that often feel constrained by their job title. And there's like that sense of like, like, I'm successful, but I don't feel like it. And to your point, it could be you know, the time freedom, it could be the financial freedom, or it is really starting to redefine success on their own terms. Although that's not how they're seeing it. They're just like, something's not right here. And I don't know why I'm unhappy. And so they start this like, journey of discovery. And for some of them, they understand that they want to stay in their careers, and that's great. And for others, it's Jeepers, I really need to figure out a way out, and it feels like entrepreneurship will be good. And then the second thing hits them. How do I find the time within my already busy life? My My career's like taking up anywhere between a minimum of 40 If not 6080 hours. My children are demanding time in terms of how much of shuttling to and from all activities we do. Yep, I'm also trying to build a relationship or maintain my relationship with my partner. And I'm also trying to take care of myself. And so then all of a sudden, it's like, how do I prioritize and build a business? That feels more aligned for me?

Mm hmm. Yeah. So many things competing for your time, all the time. And, and knowing that any sort of change, especially one as significant as moving from a career, which, quote unquote, has stability, and you know, you feel secure, they're into taking a risk and going out on your own and opening out, or opening the sort of floodgates of questioning yourself, how do I figure out what to do for a business? How am I qualified for this? Because all of a sudden, isn't it interesting how, when somebody else gives you a title, you're like, Yay, I got that. I'm a VP now or a manager, but all of a sudden, you give yourself the title of CEO. And it's like, oh, that doesn't mean anything, because I gave it to myself.

Yeah, absolutely. Right. And in like, to your point, like, I have clients still where I'm like, your leader, you know, and they're like, no, no, I'm not. I'm just someone who does this little thing. And even for me, like, when I'm presenting or I'm workshopping, or whatever it might be, I really have to be like, No, you are the director of your business. You are the founder of your business, you are running a business, you are a business owner. And it's like, oh, yeah, I am. This moment of like, oh, yeah, I am. And I think also, to your point, Kelly, people are also attached to their titles in their careers. And that is an easy way to signify, of course, but also a way to identify. And so what and so like, I love this idea of it being bestowed upon you, but, but you feel that you've earned it, and you feel that you've worked toward it. And you feel that that is a title given in recognition of all of that. So it feels easier to put it on. Even though sometimes we also feel like a bit of a fraud or an imposter as we get like, it's like a life rule that person I got that job or whatever it might be, and I gotta prove to them that I'm a great hire, you still feel like you've earned it. So it's easier to put it on. And like, stretch into that. Where as when you make the shift for a lot of people, it's like, you just grab that off the shelf. So it feels very uncomfortable. And it takes time to really, really start to own that. This you kind of question, did I earn this? Or did I just give it to myself? Which you know, you did give it to yourself? And then you did earn it by the way?

Yes. Yes, absolutely. That is something that all of a sudden, it feels like we're like, Oh, I'm so new. I'm so new business. I'm so new at this, but not really, because your experience still counts regardless of what container it was in before you didn't just reset. And now you have you don't know anything, just because you're an entrepreneur. Now, we may have things that we don't know as much about such as like the behind the scenes stuff before running a business, which is different than you actually being able to implement and deliver on the service, and the skill set and the expertise that you bring to the table.

Yeah, that's 100%. Kelly, you couldn't have said it better.

Who is it? I love this conversation. So let's get a little bit tactical, then for the people who are thinking about leaving a career and moving into an entrepreneurial venture. And how do we where do you start? And how do you build this with the knowing the time constraints, and knowing that people will have their own sort of? What's the word I'm looking for, like threshold of comfort of like when you actually take that leap? So I'm curious to go down that road with you.

Yeah, so I love that you started right there with threshold of comfort, because that's what I would call about, like, how do you feel safe and good as you're making the switch. And so often like to think about creating a runway out of your nine to five and into your business. And the fact that you're in your nine to five is actually a beautiful constraint to have, rather than feeling like you have to take like a big wild leap and just burn everything down and move into this unknown like, that's like, like you said, like that threshold is like will like pulling you into the stratosphere it would be really scary for a lot of people. So when you're thinking about building out that runway, one of the first things I would say is like what is your financial cushion? Right. So financial safety for a lot of People who already are high earners, like, let's just be real, like the idea of leaving that comfort behind is not easy. And for anyone who's also on the other end, where they're just like, I want to have my bills paid, you know, I want to have that security, then understanding that cushion are that safety net. And I've heard other people call it an fu fund, but I called it my funding my dream fund. Like that. Yeah. And it's like, if you could put a line item into your bank of like, what I did was, I started to put in a small number. And I did this in 2017, without any sense that I was ever going to start a business. I just wanted this thing to fund a dream that I had. And I remember my husband asking me like, well, what's the dream, and I'm like, I don't really know. Like, I just feel like I need to start putting this money aside for something. So that it's, it's ready when I want to do the thing. And for me, I thought the dream could have been like a travel thing or like big piece of like, I don't know, like a retreat or something. That's what I was really thinking. But this financial cushion is to think about, you know, your personal expenses, in your upcoming business expenses. And for different people that runway is, is a different timeline. So it could be you want nine months worth of your, all of your personal expenses covered plus having a holiday. Plus when you start forecasting what business expenses could be. But it doesn't matter whose like you said, everyone's going to have a different level of that. But financial security, if you don't have that, running your business, and even if you're in your business full time, and you don't have financial security, I do offer counterintuitive advice, which is that you probably need to get a job. So you don't have a high need put onto your business, when it can't deliver that for you. Like you wouldn't go into any relationship with the high need of like, I need you to fix me, I need you to love me, I can teach you to do all these things for me. And we can't be expecting our business to deliver these unrealistic expectations to us. So I would say the first one is really around that financial cushion or that financial safety net. There's a couple of others, obviously. But yeah, that's a really, really big one, for building that safety and making the switch feel good for you.

Yeah, I love I love how you've said that. Because it's definitely very subjective. And while there's a lot of rhetoric around out there around entrepreneurship, and when you're an entrepreneur, you have to have a fairly high risk tolerance. And that's true, but it's also still so subjective. And I know that this is a point of disagreement between my husband and I, because he's very much the like, spreadsheets and numbers, and is it all going to work out and I'm like, my energy says, it's all going to work out. So I'm gonna lean into it and just do it. And then know that my belief in my ability to figure it out is what's going to pay off for me. And, you know, I've seen that work and take longer than it, I thought it should and all of those things. So you sort of teed up there that expectations is an important factor to consider when moving into starting a business and even just thinking about what the beginning of your business looks like. So let's chat about that.

Yeah, so that that's great, because that kind of goes into and I love the example of your husband and you and the two forces, because that's what like when you're in your nine to five, this is what led to me having a practical business plan that's like a flexible, adaptable business plan can look like. So what I mean by that is, you know, you can do your vision, you can do your strategy, you can do a whole bunch of things, where I would think that you would need to focus on personally is how well do you understand your client? How well do you understand your service? And how well do you understand yourself? And knowing that so I love I'm going to use the example is like, you're like, Yeah, I've got this, this vibe and this energy that's telling me that this is gonna work out. And then you've got a partner who's there to support you in the best way they know how to be kinda like, well, it's forecast about this. And that can feel like for me, and probably for you a little bit like Motwane like come on right?

All his spreadsheet, the spreadsheet of killing, but that's fine.

I love that. It also there's a time and a place for that spreadsheet, right? So for you and for anyone like me as well, it's like, let's come at it with some informed ideas then, right? Like I'm gonna follow this energy. And and a great way to do that is to start testing out like what your services are testing out who you think your client is. So these are basics. You don't even need a spreadsheet for this but like you do your first composite of your persona or your ideal client avatar, whatever language you're using, and you based on assumption. And what you can do when you're in your career is start within your own organization, I'm sure that you've got people that you think that person would be amazing for this kind of fuzzy service I'm thinking about. And you can start having conversations with people and just genuinely talk to them about it over your lunch hour, for example, or buy them an after work beverage. And you can start testing your own assumptions of the type of client you think you'd like to work with. And you might think that you want someone who's at an early stage like you are, or you might be thinking that you want someone who's got a deep level of strategy thinking. But then when you have those conversations, some of those ideas might start being challenged, or you might see start to change. Now, when you're testing, obviously, don't make it highly anecdotal, and just change everything on a whim based on one conversation, you're going to need to have a bit more information. I come from like a service designing background, like I'm like an actual trained business coach. And so I work in the space of innovation. And one of the rules of thumb that we have as designers is to speak to a minimum of six people, and feel informed by those themes and those patterns. And so this comes back to the spreadsheet, because here you are doing your creative thing, following this feeling and kind of going, boom, I feel like this would be the type of customer I would be working with. And then you take all that data and information, and you start to kind of go, what does it actually look like in terms of the kind of customer I want, and you're creating a version 2.0. So you're iterating on your work already. And this becomes informed and practical. And you're already de risking before you even put anything into market, which I just find beautiful. So you kind of get a little bit of that spreadsheet by like, what does this actually look like in terms of a forecast, and then you start making sense of it. So you get a bit of both, you can start doing things like that, and I'm using the client as the most obvious one. But you can do this with your service as well in terms of testing in small ways as well.

And you know what that ideal client work needs will always evolve. It's something that you're constantly getting more clarity about, the more that you actually work with people and have conversations with people. And in any of these contexts. So both, like even just hearing you say that back to me feels really, it's just giving me a different perspective of how to look at it. And it's something that I teach people as well, right, like, knowing who you're talking to knowing who your ideal client is, is absolutely critical. Because you're not going to make a sale if you don't understand and show them that you understand what they're going through what they're struggling with, what their challenges are, and what their dreams are, you know, all of those things, at least to a certain level of specificity, then you are able to come in and provide a service that matches with that and message it in a way that resonates with them. So there's 100%, two sides of the coin.

Yes. And that's why you have to, like I said, like you, you take this time to know yourself, your client and in the potential service you want to offer. And I like to think of it as a potential because you want to say it's always also flexible, the way that you're talking about your client is and it's always evolving. And so matching, like you said, like you kind of go okay, well, I understand them more deeply than I thought, based on this information that I'm gathering. And then based on that, it's like, like you said, if this is what they're looking for, and this is what they're running away from, and this is what they're truly desiring. Then, from your perspective, or anyone's perspective, it's like, well, then, how do I show up like, like the pain relief to what they're running away from? Or the icing on the cake towards what they want to move, move toward, right, so toward their dream? I said that messy, but you understood it? Like how are you the icing on the cake and make it better?

Yeah, no, I like those analogies. I'm like, Oh, this is so good. Yes, because it's sort of like one or the other like pain, you're there really solving a pain or you're supporting a dream sort of thing.

Absolutely. And so then like, you can speak to that more clearly in your messaging to say, I really get it. And then this is how my service can support that for you. So you're no longer talking just about the five calls. If you're if you're a business coach like myself, like five calls, and this is what you'll get. And this is my framework, you won't be talking about that. But you will be talking more to the fact that like, I really get that you're feeling like, you know, you've got the success and it's kind of scary to leave that behind and move into this new thing. Like what if I'm not as successful there, right? Like you want to have that proven for you. And it's also like, you can speak to the fact of like, well, what if you were to build what you did now and now do it on your own terms. And now you can have an exponential level of growth. So you can spend more time with your children. And you don't have to feel guilty leaving work early and wondering what everyone in the office is saying about you when you leave, because you're taking your child to that doctor's appointment. So like that, that kind of freedom. And you can speak to that in the way that you build your service like, is profound. And your clients saying, Oh, you actually do get it? And this service feels right for me.

Yeah, and and what I've always heard, and my favorite definition, actually, of confidence is your belief in your ability to figure things out. So when it comes to how are you actually going to deliver on that service, the logistics of it doesn't matter as much as you knowing that you're committed to ensuring that your client will get a result. And so if you can speak to this is where we're trying to go. And then you just, you kind of get somebody on board and you figure out the like, was it six calls? What are the eight calls? Do we need to work together for three months? Or could I have turned this into a digital product or whatever, like, that doesn't even matter at the beginning.

Absolutely. And I love what you're talking about with confidence there. That's so great. And that's where it's like, again, like, know yourself, and this is such a great opportunity in your nine to five to do that. So, one, we often have blind spots of how how great we are right. And I love the idea, again, using your colleagues and your management. And also anyone that you manage, perhaps you can use them to do like in an office environment, they call it like sometimes doing a 360. But I like this concept. It's a Johari Windows experiment. And so it's like this idea of like, what is your blind spot. So you can literally ask people, and I did this when I was exiting my job, although I didn't know why I was doing this. So when I, by the way, like when I quit in 2018, I quit everything. And like I had no idea why I was quitting like I just like was like I need to take a break. So and I'd never done that before. It freaked me out so much to quit without a plan. And I when I gave notice to my organization, I was working on delivering a service for them building a new service. And I was like, I found like the sweet spot where I was like, when I got to this point in the service, I felt that I would have ended it over properly. So gave myself a six week runway. So when he uses myself as the example. And so in that six weeks, I was like, I need to work for my my organization, obviously. But then I was like sitting there like, I don't know what I'm doing next. I really don't have a flippin clue. And I think I need a little bit more understanding of self. So I actually went and spoke to colleagues, people who had managed me people who were project leads who were delivering these services. And I asked all of them, like when you work with me? Like, what is it that you love about working with me? Like, what do you what do you get out of it? What is the value that you find? And it was also because I had good trust with these people? I'm like, What do you think were my areas of improvement? And is there anything you would advise me to leave behind here and not take forward into my next role? And, you know, one, sometimes just can find cheerleaders, which is just really, really nice. Yeah, just that. And you're just gonna, like, thank you so much. I'm so glad I made such an impression on you. And I'm going to keep you in my back pocket for those days where I feel terrible about myself. Yeah. Also, you're gonna learn a heap about yourself of things that you bring to the table that you didn't recognize. So I knew that I was, because I lead a lot of workshops and facilitate, I knew that my energy was something that people fed off of when we did a lot of those workshops. It was like, they'd all be like, Oh, I'm a little bit nervous about what we're doing. But I'd be like, we'll figure it out. We can make it through, not just rob are robbing them, but showing them the framework of how we're going to get there. And they really like your energy was like enough for me to go, okay, I can do this next scary thing. So I knew that was something I was good at. But what I did, didn't know until someone flagged it for me by doing this was that I was actually providing support and safety and comfort for people through through what felt foggy work. I didn't recognize that. And that started to build my competence as well to be kind of like, Okay, again, it would take me well over a year before I would arrive into entrepreneurship. But when I did, I then knew that I was an anchor of safety for people going through transition. And that wasn't something I could have understood about myself without having that blind spot kind of having a light shine on to it and to be like at any turn and look there that that would have been. I don't think I could have was what am I trying to say? I don't think I would have seen that going forward. He is such a important skill set, working with other entrepreneurs. So building up your confidence in your job is so simple in the sense of like, you can literally ask 10 people, what do you think I'm great at? What do you love about me? What do you think I can improve? And what do you think I should leave behind on this next project, you know, for my next project will be sure to leave behind. They don't need to know you're walking out the door. Right? So what do you think I should leave behind on this next project where we work together on so you can definitely build up your home, or your confidence that way.

That is fantastic advice. I wish that I could have done that exercise. I mean, I know that I've done sort of different versions of it, if you know, even just if you want to completely depart from what you were doing in your career and like move into something entirely different as thinking of like, what do your friends always ask you for advice on like, what are you always getting questions about that's like, maybe totally unrelated. And you realize, oh, I need to, like, teach people how to make custom shirt coterie boards, or like whatever it is, right? Because maybe it's it's a complete departure. But what a fantastic exercise and an important one for helping with your self awareness. Because we truly do have a lot of blind spots about ourselves, especially when it comes to our own skill sets. And, and sometimes it's really challenging to even articulate, like you said, yours is quite a little bit of a nuanced skill set, where it's not just like, I am good at making this thing. Like, look at how great the thing is I make but when you work with people in the capacity that you do as a coach, you're the soft skills, right, are really important and being able to identify and highlight what some of those are. Okay.

Okay, remind me one more thing can I just say,

I was gonna say is you have one more thing, I feel like one more thing would be a perfect round out.

Okay, I love that we were on the same page. So like I said, I was on a six week exit from my role at that time. But if you were to just do this, knowing that your runway out of your job was months, or even a year and a half away, or something like that, what could also happen is someone could say something like, an area of improvement for you could be that you have beautiful presence and energy. And I just think that you could really step into that a bit more. And if something like that were to be said, you could kind of go hmm, perhaps I need to join or do a course on facilitation training, or communication skills. Right. Now, the beauty of knowing that, by doing an exercise, like just seeing what your colleagues have to say about you, is that that can become a professional development piece that's valuable to your organization, as well as personally valuable for your development into what you're thinking of in terms of your next evolution. So that you have the opportunity to go to your manager and to kind of say, Look, people have been talking about my energy and how good it is. But they really think I need to vocalize more step more fully into this in meetings, or in presentations or in whatever, whatever works well for your, for your manager, basically, for your key role that you hold in your organization. Less Likely, because you're now marrying up that skill that you're like, I'm going to develop this because if I learn how to communicate well here, that's going to serve me in my next iteration of self. But if you can marry that up with your business objective, your or your roles, objectives, nine times out of 10 If there's development budget, your manager is going to be like, yes, absolutely. Let's get behind this, let's grow you. And so now you're also being smart in your environment, about taking this feedback, taking it to your boss or your manager and saying, I would love to upskill illness, you're going to do better at your presentations, you're going to do better at facilitated a, you're going to do better at holding space, in meetings, whatever it is, you're going to just deliver more for your organization, that's a win for them. And you're going to be like shit, I'm so good at this now. And that's a win for you. So you're developing these transferable skills, you're building up that confidence, and you're taking that experience, which again, you are embedding into your organization, which is so helpful, and then taking it with you. And again, if you didn't embed it into your organization, you could always just come back after being on conference even, like, you know, maybe you go on a conference to learn about something that isn't in your wheelhouse. You know, like I see this as an opportunity for the future. If you even gave a presentation on no user experience, right? Something that's like kind of left field from what you do, but you think that there's value in understanding your customers. You could do a presentation on that back to your team to say this is what I learned saw experience in these little golden nuggets I want to bring back to our team. There's no way that they're not going to find value in that so you can make this work for you while you're In your job, so you don't always have to think about, oh, once I leave, then I can upskill no upskill. Now, let's go now.

Yeah, and I feel like this comes full circle to what you were talking about the beginning that perspective shift of where you said your job is funding your dream. So instead of like having that tension, which I imagine a lot of people like, leave for reasons of burnout, there's all of the like, just the challenge, because I literally do not know how people live in two full time, parent households, or single parent households were somebody who's working a full time job and has children. And like, because I have to go every day at 230, when they get off school, it's ridiculous. Like, it's just not possible. So just reframing even the way that you're looking at the job as part of like the transition plan, rather than when I'm done, then I'll start so there's a lot more overlap, and that you can even almost like I can imagine, re ignite your own excitement for being there, instead of feeling that sort of toxicity, or, or strain around being there. If you are figuring out how you can improve yourself as part of that whole plan. That sounds like a whole mastermind, like, yeah, easing. So people are listening to this are like, great, like, I feel like that will be a really nice permission slip for, for listeners who are working a nine to five and are, you know, at a point of like resenting it, or you really want to get out of there. But knowing that, even if it does take a year or 18 months, or whatever it is, can you look at it a little bit differently? Can you look at it as what's gonna happen next, and then you'll be able to feel really good about that. Or if you're a wild and reckless, not reckless, that's a negative word. But like, if you're a little more comfortable with risks, you know, you maybe you tear off the band aid, and you do it a different way. But there's multiple ways to leave your job and start a business if that's what you want to do. And I love that you, like provided that context for us today Amy.

Yeah, Kelly, you You've literally just hit up on the fact that that's actually a way to, like you said it is a way to relieve burnout in a role. But there's flow science behind that. So Steven Kotler is one of the board thought leaders, if you will, in flow science, and he talks about this as a way of like, when you're burnt out in a career finding even like the 1% of like, a 1%, shift into like, what can bring you more joy can start completing that burnout stress cycle, so you can allow your emotions to happen. And then you can start focusing on something brand new, that brings in a new level of excitement. So you're absolutely right. So there's science behind that as well, just to just to tell you that that intuition that you just pulled that thread, there's like literal work behind it, that shows that that is exactly the way it works.

That makes sense. And obviously, for me, I'm like Hindsight is 2020. Mine was not flowy my whole exit strategy, like there was no exit strategy. It was just, I didn't even know I was burned out. And then I was burned out. And then my mum died. And I was like, okay, all the things came crashing down. And then you know, that momentum piece, right, you do lose it. You have to refocus your energy on different things sometimes. And it takes a while to build that all back up. But, you know, for wherever you land on the spectrum listeners have, like wanting to have a big plan in place in a transition and, and to have all this foresight, cool. If you're like, I could condense that into two weeks. Cool. Either way, I think that there was a lot of value in this conversation and just thinking of how to transition and what if even you're in the middle of a business, and it's not going the way that you want it to and you want to get a job to continue to fund your dream. In the meantime, write all our options. I love that. Oh, amazing. Thank you so much for being here. Amy. Please let everyone know where they can best connect with you and if you have anything for them to consume of yours.

Yeah. Thank you so much, Kelly. So one of the things we talked about was well, we touched upon it we didn't speak about it is that a lot of people actually experienced that imposter syndrome. So we touched on it when it was like absorbing that title, right? So of being a business owner. And because so many people experienced impostor syndrome. I'd really love to gift your listeners a 30 minute workshop. And it is breakthrough impostor syndrome, where you will overcome self doubt so you can feel or experience more like peace or joy or like keys vibes in the work that you're doing, and so they can click the link in your show notes. or they will follow me on Instagram. And that's @amy_cunliffe

Fantastic as always, listers, please take the guests up on their invitation to connect with them. We are real human beings behind the microphone here and along with you as you shuttle your children around to various activities, or cook dinner or fold laundry or walk your dog or whatever it is that you are doing right now. So please reach out and connect. And Amy, thank you so much for spending your time with us today.

Yeah, my absolute pleasure. Thank you, Kelly for hosting.

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