July 18, 2025

The Scapegoat's Path to Healing: Breaking Generational Cycles Guest: Emma Lyons

The Scapegoat's Path to Healing: Breaking Generational Cycles Guest: Emma Lyons

In this powerful and deeply resonant episode, we explore the lifelong impact of generational trauma and the difficult — but often necessary — choice to go no contact with a toxic parent. Our guest, Emma Lyons, is a trauma-informed healer and subconscious reprogramming guide who bravely shares her personal journey of reclaiming identity and self-worth after growing up in a deeply dysfunctional family system.

Emma describes what it means to dismantle the roles we’re cast into — especially the role of the scapegoat — and how covert narcissism in a parent can distort reality, erode self-trust, and perpetuate pain through generations. Together, we unpack the subtle yet corrosive nature of emotional manipulation and control, and how choosing distance or separation is sometimes the most loving act one can offer themselves.

This conversation is a validating, empowering resource for anyone navigating trauma bonds, enmeshment, or guilt around setting boundaries with family. Emma’s wisdom reminds us that healing doesn’t always look like reconciliation — sometimes it looks like liberation.

What We Cover in This Episode:

  • The hidden impact of covert narcissism on children and family dynamics
  • How generational trauma keeps roles like the scapegoat or golden child alive
  • Why “no contact” can be a vital step toward healing
  • The grief, guilt, and growth that comes with reclaiming your truth
  • Tools for nervous system regulation and emotional safety
  • How to break free from the “good girl” identity
  • Encouragement for anyone standing at the edge of a difficult choice

🔗 Connect with Emma Lyons:

📱 TikTok: @trauma_matrix

📷 Instagram: @emmaslyons

💼 LinkedIn: Emma Lyons – Burn the Script

📰 Substack: Trauma Matrix

If you've ever questioned your family dynamics, felt unseen or blamed, or struggled to set boundaries with toxic relatives, this episode will speak directly to your soul.

Tune in, share with someone who needs to hear this, and let the healing begin.

00:06

Introduction to Emma Lyons: A Journey of Healing

00:24

Understanding Generational Trauma and Narcissism

11:26

The Journey of Self-Discovery

18:36

Understanding Trauma and Healing

24:42

Navigating Mother-Daughter Relationships and Emotional Healing

29:44

Breaking the Cycle of Toxic Relationships

34:11

Recognizing Narcissism and Trusting Your Gut

39:36

Finding Your Voice: The Importance of Sharing Your Story

Hey there, I’m so glad you’re here and tuning in! If this episode spoke to your heart, just know there’s even more support waiting for you.

I work with people who are ready to heal from the inside out — especially those dealing with chronic stress, anxiety, inflammation, gut issues, or burnout. If you’ve been struggling with symptoms your doctors can’t fully explain, it may be that your past is still living in your body. Unhealed emotional wounds and nervous system dysregulation often show up as physical and mental health challenges — and I’m here to help you break that cycle.

As an international inspirational speaker, NLP Practitioner, Trauma-Informed ACOA Coach, Neurofit Trainer, and Best-Selling Author, I bring both deep personal experience and professional training to the work I do. I believe in prevention, not just intervention — and use a body, mind, and spirit approach to guide others toward becoming the happiest, healthiest versions of themselves.

My holistic toolbox includes nervous system regulation, trauma-informed coaching, nutritional support, and natural healing strategies — including access to a powerful biofrequency scanner that gives us real-time insight into your wellness reality so we can create a personalized roadmap for healing.

Most of all, I’m your friend on this journey — cheering you on and reminding you that you absolutely can live your best life EVER. 💛

🔑 Start Your Healing Journey

🆓 Signature Course – Trials to Triumph: An Adult Child's Emotional Freedom Blueprint

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👉 Start here: www.tammyvincent.com/course


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📩 Email: tammy@tammyvincent.com

📱 Text: 513-280-3555

🌟 If this episode helped you, please share it with a friend, leave a review, and hit follow. Every share helps break generational cycles and brings healing into more lives.

Speaker A

Well, good morning everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Adult Child of Dysfunction.

Speaker A

Today we have with us Emma Lyons.

Speaker A

She's a trauma informed healer, subconscious programming guide, and someone who had to completely dismantle the role she was cast in to reclaim her life.

Speaker A

I absolutely love that.

Speaker A

Actually, I, I didn't take that from your bio.

Speaker A

I took it from somewhere else.

Speaker A

But I'm just gonna.

Speaker A

We're just gonna jump right in because one of the comments Emma made in our talk was about going no contact with her mother.

Speaker A

And so we got into this conversation and it literally.

Speaker A

This is a very common theme for people because trauma doesn't just start right here.

Speaker A

It usually starts generation after generation after generation, way, way back when.

Speaker A

So that is really a lot of what we're going to be talking about today.

Speaker A

But I just want to welcome you, Emma.

Speaker A

How are you doing today?

Speaker B

Great.

Speaker B

Thank you so much for having me.

Speaker A

Yes, absolutely.

Speaker A

So, yeah, no, I totally get it because it wasn't until, especially when you talk about the intergenerational thing or the generational trauma, it wasn't until I could really look back at my parents as having the same wounds or similar wounds that I did and realized that that was the cause of why they did what they did to me, that I could really look at it from a generational perspective.

Speaker A

And the fact that we all have these wounds that we carry and if we don't break that cycle, they're going to continue forever and ever.

Speaker A

And my parents were just the byproduct of their parents wounds.

Speaker B

So yes, 100.

Speaker B

And there's a tendency like in older generations to minimize the damage.

Speaker B

Like I think my grandmother, my mother's mother was some narcissist probably.

Speaker B

She was very toxic.

Speaker B

But when I talk to my aunt and my mother about it, they're like, oh, she was just a bit anxious, you know, she just had some problems.

Speaker B

But I mean, I've recently discovered that she was sexually abusing my uncle.

Speaker B

So you know, these are.

Speaker B

This is not just someone who had a bit of anxiety, Effy.

Speaker A

Exactly.

Speaker A

And, and it travels down.

Speaker A

So all of the things that.

Speaker A

All the reactions, all the trauma, all the everything.

Speaker A

So then you were treated like that.

Speaker B

Yes.

Speaker A

So talk a little bit about what led up to the going no contact.

Speaker B

Well, I mean, I had been kind of aware that I was, I moved was in Mexico and I had had this accident and I was noticing that my mom was being quite controlling.

Speaker B

I was trying to like lay down some boundaries and say that I need some space.

Speaker B

And she would continuously like insist That I have a call, even though I said I need some space, I'm going through some things.

Speaker B

I'm going through a difficult time.

Speaker B

And she would never like ask, oh, how are you?

Speaker B

She just wants to know where I am.

Speaker B

She wants to have this phone call and that is her focus and then back on herself and what she's going through.

Speaker B

And I noticed that that's very much a pattern.

Speaker B

This isn't just a one off thing.

Speaker B

I had been kind of feeling uncomfortable about these interactions for a long time, but I hadn't been really able to identify clearly because this kind of abuse, covert, narcissistic abuse, it's so subtle that it's, it can be invisible.

Speaker B

And this is why it's so insidious and dangerous.

Speaker B

Because people like myself, the scapegoat, we just totally internalize it and make it my fault.

Speaker B

And that's part of the role that we're playing in these family systems to kind of hold up this toxicity within the family that everyone else is just ignoring.

Speaker A

Absolutely.

Speaker A

And we do all take a role.

Speaker A

I think in the last episode I did, we were just talking about all the different roles people play.

Speaker A

So for the listeners, can you explain the scapegoat?

Speaker B

Yeah.

Speaker B

The scapegoat is often the most sensitive one in the family.

Speaker B

The most.

Speaker B

The weird one.

Speaker B

I was the weird one, the sensitive one.

Speaker B

I was told that I was too sensitive, that I was self absorbed if I was upset.

Speaker B

And basically you're the landfill for the family's trauma, even if they don't blame you overtly they might do.

Speaker B

They might say, oh, it's your fault and you can't do anything right.

Speaker B

But also it can be very energetic and just kind of dumping their trauma on you.

Speaker B

And often it's fused with the invisible child as well.

Speaker B

That was my case.

Speaker B

I was also the invisible child.

Speaker B

Kind of off.

Speaker B

Everyone just assumed that I was okay even though I wasn't.

Speaker B

They never really checked in to see how I was.

Speaker B

They just went on about their business.

Speaker B

So the scapegoat is the.

Speaker B

Is the role that kind of, is most, most damaged by this toxic family system and can go on if they.

Speaker B

If you work through your trauma to become the truth teller of the family and to kind of burn it out and break down those.

Speaker B

That toxicity for everyone else.

Speaker A

Absolutely.

Speaker A

And it's, you know, it's funny the roles when you say you were this and that because so many times people have said to me, well, that doesn't really fit into me at all times of my life.

Speaker A

And I'm like, well, it can definitely change.

Speaker A

You can, you know, if you all of a sudden have a brother who's acting like the hero and then all of a sudden he starts acting out and being the one that takes the attention off the rest of the family by getting in trouble, going to jail, and all of a sudden now you step in and you're the caretaker and you're the parentified one.

Speaker A

And me, your roles change constantly throughout your life.

Speaker B

They absolutely can do.

Speaker B

My sister, I think she flirted with the scapegoat roll my, my younger sister.

Speaker B

But I think I was the, the long term stand in for that.

Speaker A

Yeah, there's always one, right?

Speaker B

Are we, you know, I was the middle child.

Speaker B

So the middle child often gets ignored anyway because the parents have this.

Speaker B

And that's what I thought it was.

Speaker B

Because all my life I've been like, why am I like this?

Speaker B

Why do I have all these really deeply ingrained, negative, toxic, negative belief systems?

Speaker B

And I thought it was emotional neglect first of all, but because the middle child and you know, the parents trying to, kind of trying to look after someone who's up climbing, you know, doing the older daughter and the younger one, who are they both.

Speaker B

And then the middle one kind of gets ignored.

Speaker B

But in my case, it was actually even more than that.

Speaker A

Oh, okay, so tell me, so you're talking at what age?

Speaker A

I guess you're using a lot of words that clearly you've been in help, you're getting help, you're healing, you're going through the process.

Speaker A

At what age did you realize all of this was going on?

Speaker A

Was there like an aha moment?

Speaker B

Well, I mean, it was actually, was actually quite recently.

Speaker B

Was it all.

Speaker B

Because all my life I've kind of, I've recognized that I internalized these things.

Speaker B

And I was asking, why do I have all these belief systems, like someone who's been sexually abused or something?

Speaker B

And I couldn't figure out what was wrong with me until, you know, fairly recently when kind of I encountered someone who I recognized was likely covert narcissist.

Speaker B

And I recognized she was an echo for my mother.

Speaker B

And then I also had a dream which kind of brought it to my attention.

Speaker B

So this is quite new, like the label, the COVID narcissist role, which kind of puts it on a new level of gravity and also definitely affected me in a deeper way than just saying, oh, she's a little bit manipulative or, you know, it's, it's, it's another level of something to cope with.

Speaker B

But I think that's an important stage in recovering from it, recognizing that the damage was done.

Speaker B

And what exactly happened?

Speaker A

Oh yeah, And I remember, I mean, I was, I was going to therapy and it was a while and finally one day I was like, why did nobody tell me my mother was a narcissist?

Speaker A

Like, why didn't, why have you never.

Speaker A

I finally was like, why have you never used those words?

Speaker A

Because somebody else was like, my gosh, your mom was completely narcissistic and started giving, like, gave me books and things to read.

Speaker A

And I was like, oh my God.

Speaker A

Like, when it finally made sense, the level of manipulation, like you said, it took it to a whole nother level.

Speaker B

Yeah.

Speaker B

And the thing is like, my mother is kind of COVID narcissist.

Speaker B

So it's much, I mean, with people like Donald Trump and et al, you know, it's very obvious.

Speaker B

But with COVID narcissist, it's much more subtle and you know, other people won't, won't even see it.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker B

So I think that's, that, that adds another level because you kind of gaslight yourself and say, oh, what was wrong?

Speaker B

Something was wrong with me obviously, because my family was normal.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker A

And you talk about gaslighting and that's what was actually going through my head when you said that because I was like, it's so crazy when you have those narcissists and people out there can probably relate to this.

Speaker A

It's.

Speaker A

And it leads into that people pleasing and that lack of identity and everything else.

Speaker A

Because it's literally like you can know a hundred percent you're right about something.

Speaker A

And by the, of the conversation, you're apologizing for it.

Speaker A

You're.

Speaker A

And it's like, how does that even happen?

Speaker A

Like.

Speaker B

Yeah, I think this is the internalized shame that we take on, especially as the scapegoat.

Speaker B

We, we kind of internalize all that shame.

Speaker B

And it makes total sense.

Speaker B

I mean, I was been reading about the scapegoat and scapegoats internalize these roles.

Speaker B

I'm ugly, I'm defective.

Speaker B

There's something wrong with me in order to cope.

Speaker B

And that's exactly, exactly what I did.

Speaker B

You know, I, I have, I check all the boxes for the scapegoat.

Speaker B

So it's really, it's really interesting to see that that was a kind of way of coping because the, we have to see our parents as kind of there they can do no wrong.

Speaker B

So the problem must be me, right?

Speaker A

Yep.

Speaker B

And even when you go to therapists, they don't see it.

Speaker B

A lot of the Time therapists won't.

Speaker B

Won't see the pattern.

Speaker B

It's invisible to people who don't know about these things.

Speaker B

And especially when it's.

Speaker B

When it's happening in a subtle form, like in covert forms.

Speaker A

Right.

Speaker A

And not only that, but as a therapist, legally, she's like, I never met your mother.

Speaker A

I can't diagnose your mother.

Speaker A

I can't say that, you know, But I'm like, well, you could have clued me in.

Speaker A

Like, he could have been like, hey, you ought to go read some books on narcissistic parents.

Speaker A

Or, you know what I mean?

Speaker A

Like, you could.

Speaker A

Because never.

Speaker A

And my mother.

Speaker A

And it was funny because my mother was a child psychiatrist.

Speaker A

So I said.

Speaker A

I said I was literally manipulated by the best.

Speaker B

Oh, my God.

Speaker B

Wow.

Speaker A

I'm like, she had the power.

Speaker A

She knew what was going on with our brains.

Speaker A

Like, how you do that to a child, I have no idea.

Speaker A

But.

Speaker A

But yeah.

Speaker A

So what did you talk about what you did and how you kind of got started?

Speaker A

Like, did you have an aha moment?

Speaker A

Where all of a sudden you were like, wow.

Speaker A

I'm just like, what was your breaking point?

Speaker A

Because I know, like, with me, I was like, it was with my first husband.

Speaker A

And people would say, you know, it's not right that he talked to you that way.

Speaker A

People shouldn't talk to you that way.

Speaker A

And you're allowed to stick up for yourself, and you're allowed to have your own ideas and thoughts and values.

Speaker A

And that was really my wake up call, was when I realized I was more of, like, just going through the motions of life.

Speaker B

So you were kind of stuck in fawning mode and just letting people and.

Speaker A

Well, among other things, you know, I had a lot when.

Speaker A

I mean, I've been working on this whole thing for 30 years.

Speaker A

So I, you know, there was a lot of stuff going on, but that was the biggest one, is that I just, you know, complete and total lack of boundaries.

Speaker A

Complete and total lack of self.

Speaker A

Really?

Speaker B

Yeah, you definitely lose yourself in that role.

Speaker B

I mean, the aha moment for me when the penny really dropped, I had a dream, and the dream was really interesting.

Speaker B

It was.

Speaker B

In this dream, I was someone else.

Speaker B

I was like a boy.

Speaker B

And it was kind of like this white lotus type family.

Speaker B

So kind of a narcissistic mother.

Speaker B

And we were in this restaurant, and I had a tray.

Speaker B

There was no one else there.

Speaker B

I dropped the tray.

Speaker B

And the mother was like, how dare you?

Speaker B

What's everyone gonna think?

Speaker B

How can you do this?

Speaker B

And then I woke up and I Didn't know who I was.

Speaker B

I didn't know where I was.

Speaker B

It was complete disorientation.

Speaker B

And I've never ever had that before.

Speaker B

Were in a dream that I can recall.

Speaker B

And that from that point I just.

Speaker B

I realized that this is like a metaphor of my subconscious.

Speaker B

And there were other dreams as well.

Speaker B

Obviously this wasn't the first one, but that was really where the penny dropped.

Speaker B

And I was like, oh, my God.

Speaker B

This is like waking up within narcissistic.

Speaker B

Narcissistic system not knowing who you are because you've been gaslit and controlled all your life.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker B

And that was what my subconscious was telling me.

Speaker B

So it was.

Speaker B

It was pretty dramatic, you know, and to wake up from a dream and not to know who you are, where you are, is.

Speaker B

Is something else.

Speaker A

And it probably felt so real.

Speaker A

So it probably felt so familiar.

Speaker A

It probably scared you.

Speaker B

Yeah, it was.

Speaker B

It was scary.

Speaker B

It's terrifying to not know who you are.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker B

Or to not know who you think you are.

Speaker A

Right, right.

Speaker A

And yeah.

Speaker A

I was just talking to someone the other day and I.

Speaker A

We got into that conversation about really, at some point you don't.

Speaker A

You do lose who you are because you're so busy just doing.

Speaker A

Saying and being what everybody else wants you to be.

Speaker A

It's like to make the peace or like as the scapegoat, you know, or as the.

Speaker A

I was always more of like the hero type where I had to just make everything good.

Speaker A

Everything.

Speaker A

As long as everything was perfect in the house, I could.

Speaker A

The house would function somewhat okay.

Speaker A

So I was, you know, always the.

Speaker A

The straight A student, the being the best at everything, because I figured, well, that would take the attention off everything else if I could get.

Speaker A

Get a little bit of that attention over here.

Speaker A

And of course, that didn't work.

Speaker A

It was like, so superficial and everything else.

Speaker A

But you do.

Speaker A

You don't.

Speaker A

You forget who you are.

Speaker A

You really.

Speaker A

Because I can.

Speaker A

I remember a therapist saying to me one time, well, who are you?

Speaker A

And I'm like, it depends on what you need me to be.

Speaker B

Wow.

Speaker B

Wow.

Speaker A

You know, you turn into like a chameleon, I guess is the best way to put it.

Speaker B

Yeah, absolutely.

Speaker B

You're trying to please people all the time.

Speaker B

I think with the.

Speaker B

Proving was what I had.

Speaker B

I was constantly trying to prove that I was good enough to my mother, to my family, and most of all to myself because of this internal belief that I'd internalize that there is something inherently defective about me.

Speaker B

And obviously that's.

Speaker B

That's an impossible.

Speaker B

Because if you believe yourself to be defective.

Speaker B

You obviously are to keep proving that by everything that you do.

Speaker A

Right.

Speaker A

You're going to keep.

Speaker A

Yeah, you're going to keep proving that theory to yourself over and over again every time.

Speaker B

Yeah, and that's exactly what I did.

Speaker A

Nice.

Speaker A

So you got into so with that.

Speaker A

I mean, being such a, I mean a dream is so, is so deep into your subconscious.

Speaker A

That's what triggered you probably to go into the subconscious work and working with the reframing and the, the subconscious work that you do now, I'm assuming.

Speaker B

Yeah, well, I mean I've been, I've been doing this healing work for a long time and the problem that I've, that I have now with kind of healing circles is they often, and you know, I think I've been guilty of this myself.

Speaker B

They often have a very superficial kind of lay.

Speaker B

Lay of layout of what's, what's wrong if things aren't working for you.

Speaker B

It's just your belief systems, you know, it's just because you believe rich people are bad or something like that.

Speaker B

But that, that totally, that's, that's a very superficial kind of cast on the whole thing when you're, because if you're, if you're operating on an, on an operating system that, where you're playing a role of scapegoat or something else within this, this toxic system that we're living in you, that, that is, that is fundamental.

Speaker B

That's like the groundwork and the beliefs are kind of additional to that.

Speaker B

So for years I've been doing this belief work and you know, changing my beliefs and work.

Speaker B

But, but really I was just moving the, doing feng shui, the furniture and the house was on fire, you know, so obviously nothing was going to work.

Speaker B

And I see that a lot with other people.

Speaker B

You know, that's what they're, that's what they're doing.

Speaker B

That's what I did, you know, like, so I can see it very clearly with other people and other healers and other coaches.

Speaker B

They, they, they just simplify it and without, with, they're going to have this whole layer of people that, that it's not going to work for.

Speaker B

And it's not because it can't work for them.

Speaker B

It's because they're stuck in this operating system that hasn't been addressed by this kind of top layer work.

Speaker A

Right.

Speaker A

And you know, I was saying yesterday to someone, we were talking about it and she was talking about, you know, like affirmations when you are like severely depressed and stuff.

Speaker A

And I'm like You can't think your way out of depression.

Speaker B

Absolutely not.

Speaker A

You know, it's just not possible.

Speaker A

I mean, and it's almost more detrimental because it just, you know, especially when you're in, like, a crisis state, it.

Speaker A

It makes you angry, and then it's like.

Speaker A

It's a snowball effect.

Speaker A

And I'm like, you can't just, you know, when you're in a deep depression, you cannot just think your way out of it.

Speaker A

And people are like, just be happy.

Speaker A

If, obviously, if we could just be.

Speaker A

You know, if someone could just be happy when they were depressed, they would just be happy.

Speaker B

My mother would just.

Speaker B

Would just tell me to just cheer up, you know, Just cheer up.

Speaker B

Yeah.

Speaker B

And it's.

Speaker B

It's.

Speaker B

It's just so dismissive, really.

Speaker B

It's so dismissive.

Speaker B

It's so invalidating of your pain.

Speaker B

And that's the other thing.

Speaker B

When you're going through this process and going through all the grief, people.

Speaker B

Other people, they don't know how to deal with that, and they.

Speaker B

They feel uncomfortable, and they project that discomfort on you.

Speaker B

They say, oh, you're triggered.

Speaker B

There's something wrong with you.

Speaker B

You need to deal with this.

Speaker B

You know, but you're just expressing your feelings, and this makes people uncomfortable.

Speaker B

And this is the.

Speaker B

This is the result of living in a narcissistic world.

Speaker B

Because these narcissistic systems aren't just within our family.

Speaker B

They are.

Speaker B

It's like fractals.

Speaker B

It's like.

Speaker B

They are.

Speaker B

There are templates for every single space out there in the world, from the.

Speaker B

From the corporations to the states to the interstate system.

Speaker B

And you could see it everywhere.

Speaker B

And how these countries and people all play these different roles.

Speaker B

And like we talked about earlier, Tommy, sometimes the roles change.

Speaker B

Like the.

Speaker B

The.

Speaker B

The narcissistic autocrat might become the victim, and vice versa.

Speaker B

You know, there's moving around there, but until we address the underlying system, we're just.

Speaker B

We're just.

Speaker B

We're not.

Speaker B

It's going to keep repeating itself as it has throughout all human history.

Speaker A

Oh, absolutely.

Speaker A

And everything, you know, you.

Speaker A

I always say, like, you are a byproduct of your mom's trauma.

Speaker A

There's just.

Speaker A

You.

Speaker A

Absolutely.

Speaker A

Until you do it.

Speaker A

Like you were saying about the generational trauma.

Speaker A

So what kind of work did you dove into to really go deep?

Speaker A

What did you.

Speaker A

What worked for you?

Speaker B

Well, it's really about feeling the feelings.

Speaker B

And also, I think it's somatic.

Speaker B

Work is really important, like releasing things through your body, because there's this idea that it's Just in your mind.

Speaker B

And I think that that's also very limited.

Speaker B

It's actually in your body.

Speaker B

Your body responds.

Speaker B

You know, my body knew these messages from my mother were uncomfortable before I did, before I realized what was going on.

Speaker B

You know, I was having, I'd fall asleep and have a dream about, you know, some kind of toxic reaction from my mother without just, I felt uncomfortable, but I didn't know why, but my body did.

Speaker B

So you've got to work with the body.

Speaker B

The body, it's like an animal.

Speaker B

It's stuck in survival mode.

Speaker B

And like you said, you can't think your way out of it.

Speaker B

You've got to, we've got to release that trauma.

Speaker B

So I think it's about, it's, it's about feeling it.

Speaker B

It's about talking to people who understand and not talking to people who are going to invalidate you and say that it didn't happen or that it wasn't that bad.

Speaker B

Because, you know, God knows we, we gaslight ourselves enough.

Speaker A

Right.

Speaker B

You know where.

Speaker B

Yeah, find, find people who, who understand and talk to them.

Speaker B

Create a community and work.

Speaker B

What's worked for me is really understanding, understanding where it comes from and kind of seeing the systemic nature.

Speaker B

But that's helped me a bit.

Speaker B

But obviously there's still grief and I'm still, I'm still in the process, and I expect to be still in the process for a lot, for a long time.

Speaker B

Because this is not a one and done, no type thing.

Speaker B

This is, it's like a spiral, you know, it's not linear.

Speaker A

And I've had people say, you know, I, I, he, I heal my clients in one session.

Speaker A

And I'm like, people are such complicated layers and you're just going to unravel another layer.

Speaker B

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker B

You can heal one layer and more will be revealed.

Speaker A

Yep, yep.

Speaker A

And I like to believe that I am given the layers of unpeeling as I'm able to handle them.

Speaker A

Because if all of your layers unraveled at one time, you would never be able to handle that mentally.

Speaker B

Yes.

Speaker B

Yeah.

Speaker B

It would be too much.

Speaker B

Yeah, too much emotionally and energetically and everything.

Speaker B

Yeah, go ahead.

Speaker A

No, go ahead.

Speaker B

Yeah, just like somatic work, working with the body.

Speaker B

Talking about it, I think is really important.

Speaker B

So all of, all of those things, talking about it is so crucial to breaking the shame.

Speaker B

Because the shame says, don't talk about it.

Speaker B

Keep the secret, don't share.

Speaker B

So when you, when you share about it, even with friends or publicly, if you feel that way inclined, you are literally breaking that spell.

Speaker A

Yep.

Speaker A

And you're getting it out of your.

Speaker A

Like, you said you're getting it out of your body because.

Speaker B

Yeah.

Speaker A

I mean, I don't know what your.

Speaker A

What physical symptoms manifested for you, but, like, for me, it was like bleeding ulcers at 18, like, with wow, no reason.

Speaker A

Like, and it wasn't, you know, what's your home life like, what's going on in your world?

Speaker A

It was just, here's Tagamet, two of these, and if it gets any worse, we'll have to do surgery.

Speaker A

Like, that's clearly not the answer, you know, but we.

Speaker B

We talk about dealing with symptoms, not.

Speaker B

Not addressing the root cause.

Speaker B

Then nobody wants to see where this is coming from because it's such a big issue.

Speaker A

Oh, yeah.

Speaker B

People terrified.

Speaker A

Oh, yeah, definitely.

Speaker A

I mean, what did you have physical symptoms as well as.

Speaker B

I had depression, like, lifelong depression, and my family never noticed.

Speaker B

And, you know, that was painful in itself, like, and I was in.

Speaker B

I was recently, like a couple of years ago, I was at home with my mother and I was depressed and it was quite obvious, I think.

Speaker B

And my mother came up.

Speaker B

Came up and said, oh, you're like a lady of leisure, you know, at the moment.

Speaker B

So quite like dismissive and invalidating and cruel outright.

Speaker A

Yeah, like, it didn't even matter.

Speaker B

No, she didn't.

Speaker B

She didn't even see me.

Speaker B

But.

Speaker B

But it was actually like a knife in the back.

Speaker B

It was.

Speaker B

It was conscious thing.

Speaker B

She didn't often do that, but that was one of the strategies that she would occasionally use.

Speaker B

She's not a malignant narcissist, a more covert type.

Speaker B

So these things were kind of rare and very painful, especially I'm very sensitive person, but she never saw me.

Speaker B

I could be like, right beside her or I could be in Timbuktu and she would not really see me because she did not want to see me.

Speaker B

She does not never want to know me for who I really was.

Speaker A

Now, do you know her?

Speaker A

I mean, I don't know how much you want to talk about your mother, but did you know her history as to what.

Speaker A

What could have possibly.

Speaker A

Why she was like that?

Speaker B

Well, yeah, I mean, her.

Speaker B

Her mother was a real battle axe.

Speaker B

Probably some kind of malignant narcissist.

Speaker B

I don't know.

Speaker B

And I think I mentioned I found out recently that she was sexually abusing my uncle.

Speaker B

My.

Speaker B

My mother's.

Speaker B

And my mother would say, oh, she just wasn't a very happy woman, you know, when she's talking about her mother.

Speaker B

But her mother was, you know, malignant.

Speaker B

I never liked her as a child myself.

Speaker B

She was aggressive.

Speaker B

I remember once grabbing me and forcing me to go with her to the market.

Speaker B

And now I don't.

Speaker B

I don't know what she did to my mother or what, but, I mean, she was not able to give them love.

Speaker B

She provided them with all the kind of what their food and their clothing, and they were.

Speaker B

Well, they're well off relatively, but in terms of love and emotional support, like nothing.

Speaker B

I don't think she would have been capable of that at all.

Speaker B

And my mother similarly, but it was just in a more.

Speaker B

In a less visible format.

Speaker A

Right, so you went no contact with your mother.

Speaker A

Are you still no contact with her?

Speaker B

Yes.

Speaker B

Yeah.

Speaker B

I have to detox.

Speaker B

I have to detox.

Speaker A

So now talk about that for the listeners, because I know a lot of listeners are like, it's.

Speaker A

They're so tired of hearing, it's your mother.

Speaker A

How do you do that?

Speaker A

Why would you do that?

Speaker A

Explain your rationalization as to the point where you finally were like, enough is enough to.

Speaker A

Because you have to give yourself some grace with that.

Speaker A

Because all your life, that's what I heard.

Speaker A

Like, you can't be mad at your mother.

Speaker A

She's your mother.

Speaker A

Like, didn't matter what she did.

Speaker B

And people excuse the mother.

Speaker B

They're like, oh, you can't.

Speaker B

You can't complain about your mother.

Speaker B

Your mother is kind of deified.

Speaker B

In our society, in our culture, the mother can do no wrong.

Speaker B

You can't criticize your mother.

Speaker B

But mothers are human, you know, mothers are traumatized, you know, obviously, and they're going to pass that on.

Speaker B

So for me, it was like she wasn't respecting my boundaries.

Speaker B

I'd keep asking for space and she'd keep trying to contact me and then, like, send me a text message on different number and stuff.

Speaker B

And I mean, I. I just had to block her.

Speaker B

And then eventually I just unblocked her and said, look, I need some space.

Speaker B

I'll be in touch if and when I can.

Speaker A

And talk about how that felt after you did that, once you got past the initial shock of, I can't believe I just did that.

Speaker B

Yeah, there's.

Speaker B

There's a constant, am I doing the right thing?

Speaker B

Am I overreacting?

Speaker B

But I need to prioritize my peace for once.

Speaker B

And this is what I need to.

Speaker B

To reclaim my peace.

Speaker B

Because she doesn't respect my peace.

Speaker B

She only cares about me in.

Speaker B

In so much as it soothes her.

Speaker B

That's why she wants to know where I am.

Speaker B

She doesn't care how I am.

Speaker B

Internally, she just wants to be able to say, Emma is here, Emma is there, you know, so that she can soothe her own anxiety.

Speaker B

And that's not enough for me.

Speaker B

And this is not one once.

Speaker B

This has been my whole life and I've.

Speaker B

I've.

Speaker B

All my life.

Speaker B

I felt obligated to talk to her when she, when I had nothing to say to her just because she insisted in speaking to me.

Speaker B

And I'm not, I'm not going to do that to myself anymore.

Speaker B

I'm not going to have a conversation about the weather just so that she can feel sued.

Speaker A

Right.

Speaker B

If it makes me feel uncomfortable.

Speaker B

No.

Speaker A

So she's.

Speaker B

Her time.

Speaker A

Right.

Speaker A

So would you say again, like, I know there's a lot of people out there that are struggling with this.

Speaker A

I've talked to three or four just this week about wanting to go.

Speaker A

No contact.

Speaker A

Would you say it was liberating once you got past the initial shock of it?

Speaker B

It.

Speaker B

Yeah.

Speaker B

I think you've got to just make that decision and send them.

Speaker B

Send the final message about what you're doing, why you're doing it, and then like, block.

Speaker B

Block them.

Speaker B

Change your number.

Speaker B

You know, you're an adult.

Speaker B

You're not a child anymore.

Speaker B

You're not, you're not beneath this person.

Speaker B

They don't, they can't control you anymore unless you give them that, that, that leash.

Speaker B

And you could take that, take that leash off.

Speaker B

And you know, you, you don't have, you don't owe your mother or whoever it is any explanation.

Speaker B

You're an adult.

Speaker B

When you're a child, you.

Speaker B

It's.

Speaker B

It's really hard to say to a child, you know, the child, the child is helpless.

Speaker A

Exactly.

Speaker B

There's nothing they can do.

Speaker B

But as an adult, you could take back your power and you're allowed, like, if somebody, if, if your friend is being toxic and dismissive of you, you take your space back.

Speaker B

And so you, you do that with your family.

Speaker B

Just because your blood related to the person doesn't give them rights to invalidate and abuse you.

Speaker B

No.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker A

I mean, seriously, once you're an adult.

Speaker A

I said that to someone the other day.

Speaker A

I was like, if they were not your brother, would they be in your life?

Speaker A

And she said, absolutely not.

Speaker A

I said, then get them out.

Speaker A

Get them out.

Speaker A

I know it's blood, but if it's toxic, it needs to go for your own mental health, you know, for your own.

Speaker A

And, and it's a long time.

Speaker A

I mean, you went no contact.

Speaker A

How.

Speaker A

I don't know how old you are, but you went no contact.

Speaker A

After decades of this.

Speaker B

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Speaker B

Decades of this.

Speaker B

Yeah.

Speaker B

So this is.

Speaker B

This is like I've given her.

Speaker B

She's taken my Blood, sweat, tears.

Speaker B

She's taken my.

Speaker B

And I just, like, what, in the grief that I was experiencing, wrote a poem.

Speaker B

Like, it's about, like, the lost childhood, the lost life, the life that couldn't have been, that you'll never remember, that never was.

Speaker B

You know, so there's all this grie.

Speaker B

That needs to happen, and it's because someone else was controlling and limiting you, and basically you bought into that.

Speaker B

So because it was your mother or your family, your father that told you these things or that energetically dumped on you that you.

Speaker B

You believed it all.

Speaker B

And, you know, especially if you were the scapegoat, like, you're going to be very damaged from this.

Speaker B

I mean, all the roles.

Speaker B

But especially like the golden child.

Speaker B

Even the golden child isn't allowed to have their own identity.

Speaker B

They basically just step into the narcissist.

Speaker B

You know, they.

Speaker B

They play it out again.

Speaker B

But we've got to.

Speaker B

We've got to break the cycle.

Speaker B

And the way we break the cycle is by speaking about it.

Speaker A

Yep.

Speaker B

And, you know, taking back our power, and that might mean.

Speaker B

That probably likely does mean, you know, taking some time.

Speaker B

You're allowed to take some time to recover.

Speaker B

You know, you can't recover.

Speaker B

And if you're sitting in a toxic field and if you're in the.

Speaker B

In the field of the narcissist, that field is toxic.

Speaker B

You can't recover there.

Speaker A

No, I say that anytime.

Speaker A

Whether it's addiction or whatever it is, if you go right back into the toxic environment that put you there in the first place, it's never, never, never going to work.

Speaker A

No, never.

Speaker A

And unfortunate.

Speaker A

And it's unfortunate.

Speaker A

But, you know, that's.

Speaker A

That's life.

Speaker A

I tell people.

Speaker A

That's life.

Speaker A

That's cyclical.

Speaker A

Like, people change.

Speaker A

People go in and out of relationships.

Speaker A

They're put there for reasons like, you know, learn from every experience and know that not every relationship and every experience is going to stay.

Speaker A

I mean, it's just.

Speaker A

That's how life works.

Speaker A

Just learn from them.

Speaker B

But, yeah, yeah, well, it's so trying to change them.

Speaker B

They're not going to change.

Speaker B

A narcissistic, dysfunctional family, they're not going to recognize.

Speaker B

But even if you.

Speaker B

If you try to tell them, point to their dysfunction, they're going to.

Speaker B

They're going to gaslight you and project it back on you.

Speaker B

So that's a waste of time.

Speaker B

And if you Stay in the field.

Speaker B

You might be tempted to do something like that.

Speaker B

So take back your power, take your space, and let.

Speaker B

Give yourself the time to recover.

Speaker A

Yep.

Speaker A

And I, I agree with.

Speaker A

You know, when we always think we can change people or we can be good enough that they're going to want to change.

Speaker A

And especially when you're dealing with a narcissist.

Speaker A

Oh, I love your cat.

Speaker A

Especially when you're dealing with that, you know, you can't even hardly.

Speaker A

I had one girl that was like, well, I'm gonna get him to go to therapy.

Speaker A

I was like, it's.

Speaker A

He will never admit that part of the problem could possibly be him.

Speaker A

Like, that's the whole thing.

Speaker A

Like, it will, you know, he won't, he won't go.

Speaker A

And somehow it's gonna turn around and you're not gonna like what you find.

Speaker A

Like when it flips and eventually she's like, you know, you're right.

Speaker A

You can't change someone.

Speaker A

That's who he is.

Speaker A

And I'm like, absolutely not.

Speaker A

And for your own peace of mind, don't try to change someone.

Speaker A

Change yourself.

Speaker A

Grow and do what you got to do to be happy.

Speaker B

Yes.

Speaker B

Yeah.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker A

So I love what you do.

Speaker A

I love.

Speaker A

So how do you work with people?

Speaker A

I mean.

Speaker B

Well, yeah, yeah, I mean, I do, I do energy work with people.

Speaker B

And I mean, I'm kind of, I'm, I'm in the process of transitioning to bigger kind of.

Speaker B

Because I've been getting all these downloads about the trauma matrix and how the real matrix is traumatized.

Speaker B

So I'm setting up this kind of, I'm leveling up what I'm doing, moving from kind of personal trauma around, limiting your power to this kind of the over the underlay of trauma.

Speaker B

And that's, that's really what I'm focusing on.

Speaker B

So at the moment I, I'm, look, I'm creating some, creating something for, for scapegoats particularly.

Speaker B

And I have some special offer for them.

Speaker B

So if people want to check that out, I'll pass on the, pass on the link to you to.

Speaker B

So I'm just looking for a couple of people to beta test a process that I'm looking to take people through.

Speaker B

So if you're interested in that, definitely check me out.

Speaker B

Or, you know, it's, it's.

Speaker B

I just say to people, you know, if this is speaking to you, it's speaking to you for a reason.

Speaker B

You know, if you're still here in this conversation, there, there's something here for you.

Speaker B

So, you know, act on Us, you know, get.

Speaker B

Get help.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker A

And talking about it is the absolute first place to start.

Speaker A

That's no lie.

Speaker A

And just being aware, you know, I've had people say, oh, awareness is the key.

Speaker A

Well, awareness is the key, but then you still have to take action.

Speaker B

So awareness is step one, recognizing.

Speaker B

Then you've got to go through the process of feeling it all, you know, and that's.

Speaker B

And that's very painful.

Speaker B

If you've had a lifetime where you've been the victim of abuse, narcissistic abuse, you know, recognizing and uncovering that, it's a.

Speaker B

It's a betrayal.

Speaker B

Particularly if it was your mother, your father, someone who you thought was.

Speaker B

Someone that you thought you could trust, they were actually stabbing a knife in your back.

Speaker A

Right.

Speaker A

So what would you give if you had to give?

Speaker A

Maybe a couple.

Speaker A

Because it seems like the conversation went completely to narcissism, which is fine.

Speaker A

I mean, that's fine because so many people are dealing with it.

Speaker A

What are some, like, quick red flags for people if they're questioning if that's what's wrong or what's going on or the relationship they're in?

Speaker B

I think it's about recognizing, like, how do you feel around this person?

Speaker B

I think narcissists, they kind of suck your energy.

Speaker B

They make everything about them in one way or another.

Speaker B

So if you have.

Speaker B

If you're around someone who's telling you that you're too much, that you're too sensitive, they're invalidating your feelings, and you just feel like after you've had a conversation with them that was just, like, paper thin, that didn't go beyond the surface, and that was all about them, all about, you know, soothing their curiosity and their anxiety.

Speaker B

Then, you know, there are some questions.

Speaker B

I think it's important to ask yourself some questions to see whether that relationship is serving you, and you don't have to kind of figure out if they're a narcissist.

Speaker B

But, you know, even.

Speaker B

Even if they're just sucking you dry like that, I think you're entitled to create some space.

Speaker B

Even if it's not going contact, you know, going no contact.

Speaker B

I mean, just say that you'll talk to.

Speaker B

Talk to the person once every once in a blue moon or whatever.

Speaker B

You don't have to.

Speaker B

Don't.

Speaker B

You shouldn't feel obligated to talk to someone once a week or once a day or once or whatever they want just to.

Speaker B

Just to make them feel better.

Speaker B

So it's really checking into how you're feeling when you're around them and, you know, just.

Speaker B

Just become aware about narcissism, aware of narcissism, and also the more subtle forms of narcissism, like covert narcissism.

Speaker B

Because I knew all about narcissism, but I never knew my mother.

Speaker B

I never clocked that my mother might be a covert narcissist.

Speaker B

This is the thing I'd read all about, listened to podcasts, but I'd never clocked it.

Speaker B

I always thought that I was just, like, exceptionally sensitive and that I had internalized all this stuff because.

Speaker B

Because of, like, emotional neglect.

Speaker B

But it turns out there was something more insidious happening.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker B

And, yeah, I think the recognizing that was, in a sense, was very painful, but also, in a way, somewhat validating because it wasn't just me then.

Speaker B

It was.

Speaker B

There was something bigger going on.

Speaker A

Well, and I think in general, just listening to your gut.

Speaker A

I mean, so many people, especially when you grew up in chaos and being mistreated and neglected, you were taught not to listen to your gut instinct because either.

Speaker A

Either you listened to it and it didn't matter if you said something, you were shot down for it or punished for it.

Speaker A

But I think once you become an adult and you're out on your own, I think that's the biggest piece of advice I can give people, is if it doesn't feel right.

Speaker A

It's not.

Speaker B

I think that you've just summed it up exactly.

Speaker B

It's that simple.

Speaker B

If it doesn't feel right, as if it's true, act like it's true.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker A

Because I. Yeah.

Speaker A

I feel like your gut instinct is your truth.

Speaker A

I mean, it is absolutely your truth.

Speaker A

So.

Speaker A

Absolutely.

Speaker A

Well, so great.

Speaker A

So if people.

Speaker A

I know you're going to give a free gift, and I will put that in the show notes.

Speaker A

If people want to find you, just real quick.

Speaker A

Everything will be in the show notes, but what's the best way for them to find you?

Speaker B

Check me out on Instagram.

Speaker B

I'm just.

Speaker B

It's trauma matrix, so you can find me there.

Speaker A

Okay, perfect.

Speaker A

And you're not off the hook yet, so if you had to leave people with.

Speaker A

Well, first of all, thank you so much for coming, Emma.

Speaker A

This was enlightening.

Speaker A

And I could probably talk to you forever.

Speaker B

Yeah.

Speaker B

It's so good to talk to people who get it.

Speaker B

You know, it's really refreshing to not have to.

Speaker B

People look away.

Speaker B

They don't want.

Speaker B

They feel uncomfortable.

Speaker B

And to be able to look someone in the eye and talk about this stuff, it's really.

Speaker B

It's really nice.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker B

I appreciate that, too.

Speaker A

Agreed.

Speaker A

Agreed.

Speaker A

And hopefully that's what this podcast is doing, because I hope people are listening and feeling.

Speaker A

I do have people reach out to me after the podcast personally and be like, wow, like, you guys hit the nail right on the head, like, what's my next step?

Speaker A

You know?

Speaker A

And that's really what we're trying to do, is share the information and help people become aware, because so many people, this is their norm.

Speaker A

They grew up that way, and they have no idea that a better life and a happier life and a life with boundaries and a life with being yourself is even out there.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker B

Putting yourself first, I think that's really the key.

Speaker B

Not.

Speaker B

It's not all about what someone else feels or what someone else wants.

Speaker B

Living your life for you, your own terms and being your.

Speaker B

Being your true identity.

Speaker B

Because when we're in a narcissistic system that is not allowed.

Speaker B

You have to play the role.

Speaker B

You have to do the thing that the system wants you to do.

Speaker B

And it's not, in a sense, it's not personal.

Speaker B

That's not to say that nobody holds any responsibility, but it's a systemic thing.

Speaker B

It's like the system kind of operates to smother everyone, so.

Speaker A

Right, absolutely.

Speaker A

So, okay, so I said you weren't off the hook, but I want you to give some last words of wisdom from Emma Lyons.

Speaker A

Like, what if you could give people one either tip, trick, strategy, or just something to keep with them for the day, what would it be?

Speaker B

That's a tricky one, because it's.

Speaker B

I think.

Speaker B

I think just talk about this.

Speaker B

If.

Speaker B

If you're resonating with this, it's not even a trick.

Speaker B

It's like, find someone to talk to about it.

Speaker B

It's not a trick at all or a tip.

Speaker B

It's just reach out and talk to someone who understands.

Speaker B

It's simple.

Speaker B

Don't try to talk to your friend who doesn't have a clue what's going on, or don't try to talk to your family.

Speaker B

If you suspect this in your family, find someone who gets it and have a conversation with them, because then you'll get that resonance and that.

Speaker B

That mirroring that probably you may never have gotten as a child.

Speaker B

I know.

Speaker B

I never got that mirroring.

Speaker B

I never got my feelings mirrored back to me.

Speaker B

So find someone who can be that mirror for you and be really discerning about who you share it with, because.

Speaker A

A lot of people can't handle it now.

Speaker A

And the mirroring is super, super important and beneficial.

Speaker A

And yes, I tell people when you choose a therapist, a coach, a counselor, whatever it is, even a group that you're in.

Speaker A

Find someone who has been through what you've been, that has.

Speaker A

That has that compassion and that has the empathy and the understanding.

Speaker A

Because it's like if you talk to people about, you know, if I go to therapists and talk about my life and she's asking me questions and she didn't grow up with two alcoholic parents.

Speaker A

She has no clue.

Speaker A

I mean, she only has textbook knowledge.

Speaker B

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker B

That's the difference.

Speaker B

Yeah.

Speaker A

Lived experience.

Speaker A

Coaching and therapy is a hundred percent different.

Speaker A

Of course you don't.

Speaker A

Yeah.

Speaker A

You also don't want to go to someone that has been on this process for like, six months because you want to be.

Speaker A

You know what I mean?

Speaker A

Because it can actually be more traumatizing if you go to someone and they've just been like, just now, you know, I mean, starting on their own journey.

Speaker A

Because you want to feel safe, and that's the most important thing, is that you feel safe and heard and validated, but you also want to be, you know, if you're going to go to someone that's going to dig up all this stuff, I mean, it's.

Speaker A

It's not easy always.

Speaker A

And you.

Speaker A

You want someone that is grounded enough.

Speaker A

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker B

Because I think a lot of people, disinformation comes up or they have this arena and then they get very destabilized and they're grasping for validation here, there, and everywhere.

Speaker B

I've definitely seen that in other people.

Speaker B

But, yeah, everything.

Speaker B

You can find it all inside yourself.

Speaker B

But find them.

Speaker B

Find the mirror that works for you, whether it be a therapist or coach, someone, your gut will tell you who's the right person.

Speaker A

Yep.

Speaker A

I remember my very first client.

Speaker A

She said to me, I've been going to therapy for 11 years.

Speaker A

$110 a week for 11 years.

Speaker A

And in 18 minutes, you told me more about why I was the way I was.

Speaker A

And one little thing I could do that will change my life.

Speaker A

And I said, girl, I was you.

Speaker B

Yeah.

Speaker A

I was like, it's that simple.

Speaker A

So.

Speaker A

Well, thank you so much, Emma, for coming.

Speaker A

I really appreciate it.

Speaker B

Yeah, thank you so much, Tommy.

Speaker B

Great to be in your world.

Speaker B

Thank you.

Speaker A

Oh, thank you.

Speaker A

And for everybody else out there listening, you can go to the show notes, grab the little freebie, all the information you can get, and find someone to talk to, to open up with, to share your heart, share your soul.

Speaker A

You will feel so, so much better.

Speaker A

Thank you so much.

Speaker A

And you guys have a blessed day.