The Scapegoat's Path to Healing: Breaking Generational Cycles Guest: Emma Lyons

In this powerful and deeply resonant episode, we explore the lifelong impact of generational trauma and the difficult — but often necessary — choice to go no contact with a toxic parent. Our guest, Emma Lyons, is a trauma-informed healer and subconscious reprogramming guide who bravely shares her personal journey of reclaiming identity and self-worth after growing up in a deeply dysfunctional family system.
Emma describes what it means to dismantle the roles we’re cast into — especially the role of the scapegoat — and how covert narcissism in a parent can distort reality, erode self-trust, and perpetuate pain through generations. Together, we unpack the subtle yet corrosive nature of emotional manipulation and control, and how choosing distance or separation is sometimes the most loving act one can offer themselves.
This conversation is a validating, empowering resource for anyone navigating trauma bonds, enmeshment, or guilt around setting boundaries with family. Emma’s wisdom reminds us that healing doesn’t always look like reconciliation — sometimes it looks like liberation.
What We Cover in This Episode:
- The hidden impact of covert narcissism on children and family dynamics
- How generational trauma keeps roles like the scapegoat or golden child alive
- Why “no contact” can be a vital step toward healing
- The grief, guilt, and growth that comes with reclaiming your truth
- Tools for nervous system regulation and emotional safety
- How to break free from the “good girl” identity
- Encouragement for anyone standing at the edge of a difficult choice
🔗 Connect with Emma Lyons:
📱 TikTok: @trauma_matrix
📷 Instagram: @emmaslyons
💼 LinkedIn: Emma Lyons – Burn the Script
📰 Substack: Trauma Matrix
If you've ever questioned your family dynamics, felt unseen or blamed, or struggled to set boundaries with toxic relatives, this episode will speak directly to your soul.
Tune in, share with someone who needs to hear this, and let the healing begin.
00:06
Introduction to Emma Lyons: A Journey of Healing
00:24
Understanding Generational Trauma and Narcissism
11:26
The Journey of Self-Discovery
18:36
Understanding Trauma and Healing
24:42
Navigating Mother-Daughter Relationships and Emotional Healing
29:44
Breaking the Cycle of Toxic Relationships
34:11
Recognizing Narcissism and Trusting Your Gut
39:36
Finding Your Voice: The Importance of Sharing Your Story
Hey there, I’m so glad you’re here and tuning in! If this episode spoke to your heart, just know there’s even more support waiting for you.
I work with people who are ready to heal from the inside out — especially those dealing with chronic stress, anxiety, inflammation, gut issues, or burnout. If you’ve been struggling with symptoms your doctors can’t fully explain, it may be that your past is still living in your body. Unhealed emotional wounds and nervous system dysregulation often show up as physical and mental health challenges — and I’m here to help you break that cycle.
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🆓 Signature Course – Trials to Triumph: An Adult Child's Emotional Freedom Blueprint
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Well, good morning everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Adult Child of Dysfunction.
Speaker AToday we have with us Emma Lyons.
Speaker AShe's a trauma informed healer, subconscious programming guide, and someone who had to completely dismantle the role she was cast in to reclaim her life.
Speaker AI absolutely love that.
Speaker AActually, I, I didn't take that from your bio.
Speaker AI took it from somewhere else.
Speaker ABut I'm just gonna.
Speaker AWe're just gonna jump right in because one of the comments Emma made in our talk was about going no contact with her mother.
Speaker AAnd so we got into this conversation and it literally.
Speaker AThis is a very common theme for people because trauma doesn't just start right here.
Speaker AIt usually starts generation after generation after generation, way, way back when.
Speaker ASo that is really a lot of what we're going to be talking about today.
Speaker ABut I just want to welcome you, Emma.
Speaker AHow are you doing today?
Speaker BGreat.
Speaker BThank you so much for having me.
Speaker AYes, absolutely.
Speaker ASo, yeah, no, I totally get it because it wasn't until, especially when you talk about the intergenerational thing or the generational trauma, it wasn't until I could really look back at my parents as having the same wounds or similar wounds that I did and realized that that was the cause of why they did what they did to me, that I could really look at it from a generational perspective.
Speaker AAnd the fact that we all have these wounds that we carry and if we don't break that cycle, they're going to continue forever and ever.
Speaker AAnd my parents were just the byproduct of their parents wounds.
Speaker BSo yes, 100.
Speaker BAnd there's a tendency like in older generations to minimize the damage.
Speaker BLike I think my grandmother, my mother's mother was some narcissist probably.
Speaker BShe was very toxic.
Speaker BBut when I talk to my aunt and my mother about it, they're like, oh, she was just a bit anxious, you know, she just had some problems.
Speaker BBut I mean, I've recently discovered that she was sexually abusing my uncle.
Speaker BSo you know, these are.
Speaker BThis is not just someone who had a bit of anxiety, Effy.
Speaker AExactly.
Speaker AAnd, and it travels down.
Speaker ASo all of the things that.
Speaker AAll the reactions, all the trauma, all the everything.
Speaker ASo then you were treated like that.
Speaker BYes.
Speaker ASo talk a little bit about what led up to the going no contact.
Speaker BWell, I mean, I had been kind of aware that I was, I moved was in Mexico and I had had this accident and I was noticing that my mom was being quite controlling.
Speaker BI was trying to like lay down some boundaries and say that I need some space.
Speaker BAnd she would continuously like insist That I have a call, even though I said I need some space, I'm going through some things.
Speaker BI'm going through a difficult time.
Speaker BAnd she would never like ask, oh, how are you?
Speaker BShe just wants to know where I am.
Speaker BShe wants to have this phone call and that is her focus and then back on herself and what she's going through.
Speaker BAnd I noticed that that's very much a pattern.
Speaker BThis isn't just a one off thing.
Speaker BI had been kind of feeling uncomfortable about these interactions for a long time, but I hadn't been really able to identify clearly because this kind of abuse, covert, narcissistic abuse, it's so subtle that it's, it can be invisible.
Speaker BAnd this is why it's so insidious and dangerous.
Speaker BBecause people like myself, the scapegoat, we just totally internalize it and make it my fault.
Speaker BAnd that's part of the role that we're playing in these family systems to kind of hold up this toxicity within the family that everyone else is just ignoring.
Speaker AAbsolutely.
Speaker AAnd we do all take a role.
Speaker AI think in the last episode I did, we were just talking about all the different roles people play.
Speaker ASo for the listeners, can you explain the scapegoat?
Speaker BYeah.
Speaker BThe scapegoat is often the most sensitive one in the family.
Speaker BThe most.
Speaker BThe weird one.
Speaker BI was the weird one, the sensitive one.
Speaker BI was told that I was too sensitive, that I was self absorbed if I was upset.
Speaker BAnd basically you're the landfill for the family's trauma, even if they don't blame you overtly they might do.
Speaker BThey might say, oh, it's your fault and you can't do anything right.
Speaker BBut also it can be very energetic and just kind of dumping their trauma on you.
Speaker BAnd often it's fused with the invisible child as well.
Speaker BThat was my case.
Speaker BI was also the invisible child.
Speaker BKind of off.
Speaker BEveryone just assumed that I was okay even though I wasn't.
Speaker BThey never really checked in to see how I was.
Speaker BThey just went on about their business.
Speaker BSo the scapegoat is the.
Speaker BIs the role that kind of, is most, most damaged by this toxic family system and can go on if they.
Speaker BIf you work through your trauma to become the truth teller of the family and to kind of burn it out and break down those.
Speaker BThat toxicity for everyone else.
Speaker AAbsolutely.
Speaker AAnd it's, you know, it's funny the roles when you say you were this and that because so many times people have said to me, well, that doesn't really fit into me at all times of my life.
Speaker AAnd I'm like, well, it can definitely change.
Speaker AYou can, you know, if you all of a sudden have a brother who's acting like the hero and then all of a sudden he starts acting out and being the one that takes the attention off the rest of the family by getting in trouble, going to jail, and all of a sudden now you step in and you're the caretaker and you're the parentified one.
Speaker AAnd me, your roles change constantly throughout your life.
Speaker BThey absolutely can do.
Speaker BMy sister, I think she flirted with the scapegoat roll my, my younger sister.
Speaker BBut I think I was the, the long term stand in for that.
Speaker AYeah, there's always one, right?
Speaker BAre we, you know, I was the middle child.
Speaker BSo the middle child often gets ignored anyway because the parents have this.
Speaker BAnd that's what I thought it was.
Speaker BBecause all my life I've been like, why am I like this?
Speaker BWhy do I have all these really deeply ingrained, negative, toxic, negative belief systems?
Speaker BAnd I thought it was emotional neglect first of all, but because the middle child and you know, the parents trying to, kind of trying to look after someone who's up climbing, you know, doing the older daughter and the younger one, who are they both.
Speaker BAnd then the middle one kind of gets ignored.
Speaker BBut in my case, it was actually even more than that.
Speaker AOh, okay, so tell me, so you're talking at what age?
Speaker AI guess you're using a lot of words that clearly you've been in help, you're getting help, you're healing, you're going through the process.
Speaker AAt what age did you realize all of this was going on?
Speaker AWas there like an aha moment?
Speaker BWell, I mean, it was actually, was actually quite recently.
Speaker BWas it all.
Speaker BBecause all my life I've kind of, I've recognized that I internalized these things.
Speaker BAnd I was asking, why do I have all these belief systems, like someone who's been sexually abused or something?
Speaker BAnd I couldn't figure out what was wrong with me until, you know, fairly recently when kind of I encountered someone who I recognized was likely covert narcissist.
Speaker BAnd I recognized she was an echo for my mother.
Speaker BAnd then I also had a dream which kind of brought it to my attention.
Speaker BSo this is quite new, like the label, the COVID narcissist role, which kind of puts it on a new level of gravity and also definitely affected me in a deeper way than just saying, oh, she's a little bit manipulative or, you know, it's, it's, it's another level of something to cope with.
Speaker BBut I think that's an important stage in recovering from it, recognizing that the damage was done.
Speaker BAnd what exactly happened?
Speaker AOh yeah, And I remember, I mean, I was, I was going to therapy and it was a while and finally one day I was like, why did nobody tell me my mother was a narcissist?
Speaker ALike, why didn't, why have you never.
Speaker AI finally was like, why have you never used those words?
Speaker ABecause somebody else was like, my gosh, your mom was completely narcissistic and started giving, like, gave me books and things to read.
Speaker AAnd I was like, oh my God.
Speaker ALike, when it finally made sense, the level of manipulation, like you said, it took it to a whole nother level.
Speaker BYeah.
Speaker BAnd the thing is like, my mother is kind of COVID narcissist.
Speaker BSo it's much, I mean, with people like Donald Trump and et al, you know, it's very obvious.
Speaker BBut with COVID narcissist, it's much more subtle and you know, other people won't, won't even see it.
Speaker AYeah.
Speaker BSo I think that's, that, that adds another level because you kind of gaslight yourself and say, oh, what was wrong?
Speaker BSomething was wrong with me obviously, because my family was normal.
Speaker AYeah.
Speaker AAnd you talk about gaslighting and that's what was actually going through my head when you said that because I was like, it's so crazy when you have those narcissists and people out there can probably relate to this.
Speaker AIt's.
Speaker AAnd it leads into that people pleasing and that lack of identity and everything else.
Speaker ABecause it's literally like you can know a hundred percent you're right about something.
Speaker AAnd by the, of the conversation, you're apologizing for it.
Speaker AYou're.
Speaker AAnd it's like, how does that even happen?
Speaker ALike.
Speaker BYeah, I think this is the internalized shame that we take on, especially as the scapegoat.
Speaker BWe, we kind of internalize all that shame.
Speaker BAnd it makes total sense.
Speaker BI mean, I was been reading about the scapegoat and scapegoats internalize these roles.
Speaker BI'm ugly, I'm defective.
Speaker BThere's something wrong with me in order to cope.
Speaker BAnd that's exactly, exactly what I did.
Speaker BYou know, I, I have, I check all the boxes for the scapegoat.
Speaker BSo it's really, it's really interesting to see that that was a kind of way of coping because the, we have to see our parents as kind of there they can do no wrong.
Speaker BSo the problem must be me, right?
Speaker AYep.
Speaker BAnd even when you go to therapists, they don't see it.
Speaker BA lot of the Time therapists won't.
Speaker BWon't see the pattern.
Speaker BIt's invisible to people who don't know about these things.
Speaker BAnd especially when it's.
Speaker BWhen it's happening in a subtle form, like in covert forms.
Speaker ARight.
Speaker AAnd not only that, but as a therapist, legally, she's like, I never met your mother.
Speaker AI can't diagnose your mother.
Speaker AI can't say that, you know, But I'm like, well, you could have clued me in.
Speaker ALike, he could have been like, hey, you ought to go read some books on narcissistic parents.
Speaker AOr, you know what I mean?
Speaker ALike, you could.
Speaker ABecause never.
Speaker AAnd my mother.
Speaker AAnd it was funny because my mother was a child psychiatrist.
Speaker ASo I said.
Speaker AI said I was literally manipulated by the best.
Speaker BOh, my God.
Speaker BWow.
Speaker AI'm like, she had the power.
Speaker AShe knew what was going on with our brains.
Speaker ALike, how you do that to a child, I have no idea.
Speaker ABut.
Speaker ABut yeah.
Speaker ASo what did you talk about what you did and how you kind of got started?
Speaker ALike, did you have an aha moment?
Speaker AWhere all of a sudden you were like, wow.
Speaker AI'm just like, what was your breaking point?
Speaker ABecause I know, like, with me, I was like, it was with my first husband.
Speaker AAnd people would say, you know, it's not right that he talked to you that way.
Speaker APeople shouldn't talk to you that way.
Speaker AAnd you're allowed to stick up for yourself, and you're allowed to have your own ideas and thoughts and values.
Speaker AAnd that was really my wake up call, was when I realized I was more of, like, just going through the motions of life.
Speaker BSo you were kind of stuck in fawning mode and just letting people and.
Speaker AWell, among other things, you know, I had a lot when.
Speaker AI mean, I've been working on this whole thing for 30 years.
Speaker ASo I, you know, there was a lot of stuff going on, but that was the biggest one, is that I just, you know, complete and total lack of boundaries.
Speaker AComplete and total lack of self.
Speaker AReally?
Speaker BYeah, you definitely lose yourself in that role.
Speaker BI mean, the aha moment for me when the penny really dropped, I had a dream, and the dream was really interesting.
Speaker BIt was.
Speaker BIn this dream, I was someone else.
Speaker BI was like a boy.
Speaker BAnd it was kind of like this white lotus type family.
Speaker BSo kind of a narcissistic mother.
Speaker BAnd we were in this restaurant, and I had a tray.
Speaker BThere was no one else there.
Speaker BI dropped the tray.
Speaker BAnd the mother was like, how dare you?
Speaker BWhat's everyone gonna think?
Speaker BHow can you do this?
Speaker BAnd then I woke up and I Didn't know who I was.
Speaker BI didn't know where I was.
Speaker BIt was complete disorientation.
Speaker BAnd I've never ever had that before.
Speaker BWere in a dream that I can recall.
Speaker BAnd that from that point I just.
Speaker BI realized that this is like a metaphor of my subconscious.
Speaker BAnd there were other dreams as well.
Speaker BObviously this wasn't the first one, but that was really where the penny dropped.
Speaker BAnd I was like, oh, my God.
Speaker BThis is like waking up within narcissistic.
Speaker BNarcissistic system not knowing who you are because you've been gaslit and controlled all your life.
Speaker AYeah.
Speaker BAnd that was what my subconscious was telling me.
Speaker BSo it was.
Speaker BIt was pretty dramatic, you know, and to wake up from a dream and not to know who you are, where you are, is.
Speaker BIs something else.
Speaker AAnd it probably felt so real.
Speaker ASo it probably felt so familiar.
Speaker AIt probably scared you.
Speaker BYeah, it was.
Speaker BIt was scary.
Speaker BIt's terrifying to not know who you are.
Speaker AYeah.
Speaker BOr to not know who you think you are.
Speaker ARight, right.
Speaker AAnd yeah.
Speaker AI was just talking to someone the other day and I.
Speaker AWe got into that conversation about really, at some point you don't.
Speaker AYou do lose who you are because you're so busy just doing.
Speaker ASaying and being what everybody else wants you to be.
Speaker AIt's like to make the peace or like as the scapegoat, you know, or as the.
Speaker AI was always more of like the hero type where I had to just make everything good.
Speaker AEverything.
Speaker AAs long as everything was perfect in the house, I could.
Speaker AThe house would function somewhat okay.
Speaker ASo I was, you know, always the.
Speaker AThe straight A student, the being the best at everything, because I figured, well, that would take the attention off everything else if I could get.
Speaker AGet a little bit of that attention over here.
Speaker AAnd of course, that didn't work.
Speaker AIt was like, so superficial and everything else.
Speaker ABut you do.
Speaker AYou don't.
Speaker AYou forget who you are.
Speaker AYou really.
Speaker ABecause I can.
Speaker AI remember a therapist saying to me one time, well, who are you?
Speaker AAnd I'm like, it depends on what you need me to be.
Speaker BWow.
Speaker BWow.
Speaker AYou know, you turn into like a chameleon, I guess is the best way to put it.
Speaker BYeah, absolutely.
Speaker BYou're trying to please people all the time.
Speaker BI think with the.
Speaker BProving was what I had.
Speaker BI was constantly trying to prove that I was good enough to my mother, to my family, and most of all to myself because of this internal belief that I'd internalize that there is something inherently defective about me.
Speaker BAnd obviously that's.
Speaker BThat's an impossible.
Speaker BBecause if you believe yourself to be defective.
Speaker BYou obviously are to keep proving that by everything that you do.
Speaker ARight.
Speaker AYou're going to keep.
Speaker AYeah, you're going to keep proving that theory to yourself over and over again every time.
Speaker BYeah, and that's exactly what I did.
Speaker ANice.
Speaker ASo you got into so with that.
Speaker AI mean, being such a, I mean a dream is so, is so deep into your subconscious.
Speaker AThat's what triggered you probably to go into the subconscious work and working with the reframing and the, the subconscious work that you do now, I'm assuming.
Speaker BYeah, well, I mean I've been, I've been doing this healing work for a long time and the problem that I've, that I have now with kind of healing circles is they often, and you know, I think I've been guilty of this myself.
Speaker BThey often have a very superficial kind of lay.
Speaker BLay of layout of what's, what's wrong if things aren't working for you.
Speaker BIt's just your belief systems, you know, it's just because you believe rich people are bad or something like that.
Speaker BBut that, that totally, that's, that's a very superficial kind of cast on the whole thing when you're, because if you're, if you're operating on an, on an operating system that, where you're playing a role of scapegoat or something else within this, this toxic system that we're living in you, that, that is, that is fundamental.
Speaker BThat's like the groundwork and the beliefs are kind of additional to that.
Speaker BSo for years I've been doing this belief work and you know, changing my beliefs and work.
Speaker BBut, but really I was just moving the, doing feng shui, the furniture and the house was on fire, you know, so obviously nothing was going to work.
Speaker BAnd I see that a lot with other people.
Speaker BYou know, that's what they're, that's what they're doing.
Speaker BThat's what I did, you know, like, so I can see it very clearly with other people and other healers and other coaches.
Speaker BThey, they, they just simplify it and without, with, they're going to have this whole layer of people that, that it's not going to work for.
Speaker BAnd it's not because it can't work for them.
Speaker BIt's because they're stuck in this operating system that hasn't been addressed by this kind of top layer work.
Speaker ARight.
Speaker AAnd you know, I was saying yesterday to someone, we were talking about it and she was talking about, you know, like affirmations when you are like severely depressed and stuff.
Speaker AAnd I'm like You can't think your way out of depression.
Speaker BAbsolutely not.
Speaker AYou know, it's just not possible.
Speaker AI mean, and it's almost more detrimental because it just, you know, especially when you're in, like, a crisis state, it.
Speaker AIt makes you angry, and then it's like.
Speaker AIt's a snowball effect.
Speaker AAnd I'm like, you can't just, you know, when you're in a deep depression, you cannot just think your way out of it.
Speaker AAnd people are like, just be happy.
Speaker AIf, obviously, if we could just be.
Speaker AYou know, if someone could just be happy when they were depressed, they would just be happy.
Speaker BMy mother would just.
Speaker BWould just tell me to just cheer up, you know, Just cheer up.
Speaker BYeah.
Speaker BAnd it's.
Speaker BIt's.
Speaker BIt's just so dismissive, really.
Speaker BIt's so dismissive.
Speaker BIt's so invalidating of your pain.
Speaker BAnd that's the other thing.
Speaker BWhen you're going through this process and going through all the grief, people.
Speaker BOther people, they don't know how to deal with that, and they.
Speaker BThey feel uncomfortable, and they project that discomfort on you.
Speaker BThey say, oh, you're triggered.
Speaker BThere's something wrong with you.
Speaker BYou need to deal with this.
Speaker BYou know, but you're just expressing your feelings, and this makes people uncomfortable.
Speaker BAnd this is the.
Speaker BThis is the result of living in a narcissistic world.
Speaker BBecause these narcissistic systems aren't just within our family.
Speaker BThey are.
Speaker BIt's like fractals.
Speaker BIt's like.
Speaker BThey are.
Speaker BThere are templates for every single space out there in the world, from the.
Speaker BFrom the corporations to the states to the interstate system.
Speaker BAnd you could see it everywhere.
Speaker BAnd how these countries and people all play these different roles.
Speaker BAnd like we talked about earlier, Tommy, sometimes the roles change.
Speaker BLike the.
Speaker BThe.
Speaker BThe narcissistic autocrat might become the victim, and vice versa.
Speaker BYou know, there's moving around there, but until we address the underlying system, we're just.
Speaker BWe're just.
Speaker BWe're not.
Speaker BIt's going to keep repeating itself as it has throughout all human history.
Speaker AOh, absolutely.
Speaker AAnd everything, you know, you.
Speaker AI always say, like, you are a byproduct of your mom's trauma.
Speaker AThere's just.
Speaker AYou.
Speaker AAbsolutely.
Speaker AUntil you do it.
Speaker ALike you were saying about the generational trauma.
Speaker ASo what kind of work did you dove into to really go deep?
Speaker AWhat did you.
Speaker AWhat worked for you?
Speaker BWell, it's really about feeling the feelings.
Speaker BAnd also, I think it's somatic.
Speaker BWork is really important, like releasing things through your body, because there's this idea that it's Just in your mind.
Speaker BAnd I think that that's also very limited.
Speaker BIt's actually in your body.
Speaker BYour body responds.
Speaker BYou know, my body knew these messages from my mother were uncomfortable before I did, before I realized what was going on.
Speaker BYou know, I was having, I'd fall asleep and have a dream about, you know, some kind of toxic reaction from my mother without just, I felt uncomfortable, but I didn't know why, but my body did.
Speaker BSo you've got to work with the body.
Speaker BThe body, it's like an animal.
Speaker BIt's stuck in survival mode.
Speaker BAnd like you said, you can't think your way out of it.
Speaker BYou've got to, we've got to release that trauma.
Speaker BSo I think it's about, it's, it's about feeling it.
Speaker BIt's about talking to people who understand and not talking to people who are going to invalidate you and say that it didn't happen or that it wasn't that bad.
Speaker BBecause, you know, God knows we, we gaslight ourselves enough.
Speaker ARight.
Speaker BYou know where.
Speaker BYeah, find, find people who, who understand and talk to them.
Speaker BCreate a community and work.
Speaker BWhat's worked for me is really understanding, understanding where it comes from and kind of seeing the systemic nature.
Speaker BBut that's helped me a bit.
Speaker BBut obviously there's still grief and I'm still, I'm still in the process, and I expect to be still in the process for a lot, for a long time.
Speaker BBecause this is not a one and done, no type thing.
Speaker BThis is, it's like a spiral, you know, it's not linear.
Speaker AAnd I've had people say, you know, I, I, he, I heal my clients in one session.
Speaker AAnd I'm like, people are such complicated layers and you're just going to unravel another layer.
Speaker BYeah, exactly.
Speaker AYeah.
Speaker BYou can heal one layer and more will be revealed.
Speaker AYep, yep.
Speaker AAnd I like to believe that I am given the layers of unpeeling as I'm able to handle them.
Speaker ABecause if all of your layers unraveled at one time, you would never be able to handle that mentally.
Speaker BYes.
Speaker BYeah.
Speaker BIt would be too much.
Speaker BYeah, too much emotionally and energetically and everything.
Speaker BYeah, go ahead.
Speaker ANo, go ahead.
Speaker BYeah, just like somatic work, working with the body.
Speaker BTalking about it, I think is really important.
Speaker BSo all of, all of those things, talking about it is so crucial to breaking the shame.
Speaker BBecause the shame says, don't talk about it.
Speaker BKeep the secret, don't share.
Speaker BSo when you, when you share about it, even with friends or publicly, if you feel that way inclined, you are literally breaking that spell.
Speaker AYep.
Speaker AAnd you're getting it out of your.
Speaker ALike, you said you're getting it out of your body because.
Speaker BYeah.
Speaker AI mean, I don't know what your.
Speaker AWhat physical symptoms manifested for you, but, like, for me, it was like bleeding ulcers at 18, like, with wow, no reason.
Speaker ALike, and it wasn't, you know, what's your home life like, what's going on in your world?
Speaker AIt was just, here's Tagamet, two of these, and if it gets any worse, we'll have to do surgery.
Speaker ALike, that's clearly not the answer, you know, but we.
Speaker BWe talk about dealing with symptoms, not.
Speaker BNot addressing the root cause.
Speaker BThen nobody wants to see where this is coming from because it's such a big issue.
Speaker AOh, yeah.
Speaker BPeople terrified.
Speaker AOh, yeah, definitely.
Speaker AI mean, what did you have physical symptoms as well as.
Speaker BI had depression, like, lifelong depression, and my family never noticed.
Speaker BAnd, you know, that was painful in itself, like, and I was in.
Speaker BI was recently, like a couple of years ago, I was at home with my mother and I was depressed and it was quite obvious, I think.
Speaker BAnd my mother came up.
Speaker BCame up and said, oh, you're like a lady of leisure, you know, at the moment.
Speaker BSo quite like dismissive and invalidating and cruel outright.
Speaker AYeah, like, it didn't even matter.
Speaker BNo, she didn't.
Speaker BShe didn't even see me.
Speaker BBut.
Speaker BBut it was actually like a knife in the back.
Speaker BIt was.
Speaker BIt was conscious thing.
Speaker BShe didn't often do that, but that was one of the strategies that she would occasionally use.
Speaker BShe's not a malignant narcissist, a more covert type.
Speaker BSo these things were kind of rare and very painful, especially I'm very sensitive person, but she never saw me.
Speaker BI could be like, right beside her or I could be in Timbuktu and she would not really see me because she did not want to see me.
Speaker BShe does not never want to know me for who I really was.
Speaker ANow, do you know her?
Speaker AI mean, I don't know how much you want to talk about your mother, but did you know her history as to what.
Speaker AWhat could have possibly.
Speaker AWhy she was like that?
Speaker BWell, yeah, I mean, her.
Speaker BHer mother was a real battle axe.
Speaker BProbably some kind of malignant narcissist.
Speaker BI don't know.
Speaker BAnd I think I mentioned I found out recently that she was sexually abusing my uncle.
Speaker BMy.
Speaker BMy mother's.
Speaker BAnd my mother would say, oh, she just wasn't a very happy woman, you know, when she's talking about her mother.
Speaker BBut her mother was, you know, malignant.
Speaker BI never liked her as a child myself.
Speaker BShe was aggressive.
Speaker BI remember once grabbing me and forcing me to go with her to the market.
Speaker BAnd now I don't.
Speaker BI don't know what she did to my mother or what, but, I mean, she was not able to give them love.
Speaker BShe provided them with all the kind of what their food and their clothing, and they were.
Speaker BWell, they're well off relatively, but in terms of love and emotional support, like nothing.
Speaker BI don't think she would have been capable of that at all.
Speaker BAnd my mother similarly, but it was just in a more.
Speaker BIn a less visible format.
Speaker ARight, so you went no contact with your mother.
Speaker AAre you still no contact with her?
Speaker BYes.
Speaker BYeah.
Speaker BI have to detox.
Speaker BI have to detox.
Speaker ASo now talk about that for the listeners, because I know a lot of listeners are like, it's.
Speaker AThey're so tired of hearing, it's your mother.
Speaker AHow do you do that?
Speaker AWhy would you do that?
Speaker AExplain your rationalization as to the point where you finally were like, enough is enough to.
Speaker ABecause you have to give yourself some grace with that.
Speaker ABecause all your life, that's what I heard.
Speaker ALike, you can't be mad at your mother.
Speaker AShe's your mother.
Speaker ALike, didn't matter what she did.
Speaker BAnd people excuse the mother.
Speaker BThey're like, oh, you can't.
Speaker BYou can't complain about your mother.
Speaker BYour mother is kind of deified.
Speaker BIn our society, in our culture, the mother can do no wrong.
Speaker BYou can't criticize your mother.
Speaker BBut mothers are human, you know, mothers are traumatized, you know, obviously, and they're going to pass that on.
Speaker BSo for me, it was like she wasn't respecting my boundaries.
Speaker BI'd keep asking for space and she'd keep trying to contact me and then, like, send me a text message on different number and stuff.
Speaker BAnd I mean, I. I just had to block her.
Speaker BAnd then eventually I just unblocked her and said, look, I need some space.
Speaker BI'll be in touch if and when I can.
Speaker AAnd talk about how that felt after you did that, once you got past the initial shock of, I can't believe I just did that.
Speaker BYeah, there's.
Speaker BThere's a constant, am I doing the right thing?
Speaker BAm I overreacting?
Speaker BBut I need to prioritize my peace for once.
Speaker BAnd this is what I need to.
Speaker BTo reclaim my peace.
Speaker BBecause she doesn't respect my peace.
Speaker BShe only cares about me in.
Speaker BIn so much as it soothes her.
Speaker BThat's why she wants to know where I am.
Speaker BShe doesn't care how I am.
Speaker BInternally, she just wants to be able to say, Emma is here, Emma is there, you know, so that she can soothe her own anxiety.
Speaker BAnd that's not enough for me.
Speaker BAnd this is not one once.
Speaker BThis has been my whole life and I've.
Speaker BI've.
Speaker BAll my life.
Speaker BI felt obligated to talk to her when she, when I had nothing to say to her just because she insisted in speaking to me.
Speaker BAnd I'm not, I'm not going to do that to myself anymore.
Speaker BI'm not going to have a conversation about the weather just so that she can feel sued.
Speaker ARight.
Speaker BIf it makes me feel uncomfortable.
Speaker BNo.
Speaker ASo she's.
Speaker BHer time.
Speaker ARight.
Speaker ASo would you say again, like, I know there's a lot of people out there that are struggling with this.
Speaker AI've talked to three or four just this week about wanting to go.
Speaker ANo contact.
Speaker AWould you say it was liberating once you got past the initial shock of it?
Speaker BIt.
Speaker BYeah.
Speaker BI think you've got to just make that decision and send them.
Speaker BSend the final message about what you're doing, why you're doing it, and then like, block.
Speaker BBlock them.
Speaker BChange your number.
Speaker BYou know, you're an adult.
Speaker BYou're not a child anymore.
Speaker BYou're not, you're not beneath this person.
Speaker BThey don't, they can't control you anymore unless you give them that, that, that leash.
Speaker BAnd you could take that, take that leash off.
Speaker BAnd you know, you, you don't have, you don't owe your mother or whoever it is any explanation.
Speaker BYou're an adult.
Speaker BWhen you're a child, you.
Speaker BIt's.
Speaker BIt's really hard to say to a child, you know, the child, the child is helpless.
Speaker AExactly.
Speaker BThere's nothing they can do.
Speaker BBut as an adult, you could take back your power and you're allowed, like, if somebody, if, if your friend is being toxic and dismissive of you, you take your space back.
Speaker BAnd so you, you do that with your family.
Speaker BJust because your blood related to the person doesn't give them rights to invalidate and abuse you.
Speaker BNo.
Speaker AYeah.
Speaker AI mean, seriously, once you're an adult.
Speaker AI said that to someone the other day.
Speaker AI was like, if they were not your brother, would they be in your life?
Speaker AAnd she said, absolutely not.
Speaker AI said, then get them out.
Speaker AGet them out.
Speaker AI know it's blood, but if it's toxic, it needs to go for your own mental health, you know, for your own.
Speaker AAnd, and it's a long time.
Speaker AI mean, you went no contact.
Speaker AHow.
Speaker AI don't know how old you are, but you went no contact.
Speaker AAfter decades of this.
Speaker BOh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker BDecades of this.
Speaker BYeah.
Speaker BSo this is.
Speaker BThis is like I've given her.
Speaker BShe's taken my Blood, sweat, tears.
Speaker BShe's taken my.
Speaker BAnd I just, like, what, in the grief that I was experiencing, wrote a poem.
Speaker BLike, it's about, like, the lost childhood, the lost life, the life that couldn't have been, that you'll never remember, that never was.
Speaker BYou know, so there's all this grie.
Speaker BThat needs to happen, and it's because someone else was controlling and limiting you, and basically you bought into that.
Speaker BSo because it was your mother or your family, your father that told you these things or that energetically dumped on you that you.
Speaker BYou believed it all.
Speaker BAnd, you know, especially if you were the scapegoat, like, you're going to be very damaged from this.
Speaker BI mean, all the roles.
Speaker BBut especially like the golden child.
Speaker BEven the golden child isn't allowed to have their own identity.
Speaker BThey basically just step into the narcissist.
Speaker BYou know, they.
Speaker BThey play it out again.
Speaker BBut we've got to.
Speaker BWe've got to break the cycle.
Speaker BAnd the way we break the cycle is by speaking about it.
Speaker AYep.
Speaker BAnd, you know, taking back our power, and that might mean.
Speaker BThat probably likely does mean, you know, taking some time.
Speaker BYou're allowed to take some time to recover.
Speaker BYou know, you can't recover.
Speaker BAnd if you're sitting in a toxic field and if you're in the.
Speaker BIn the field of the narcissist, that field is toxic.
Speaker BYou can't recover there.
Speaker ANo, I say that anytime.
Speaker AWhether it's addiction or whatever it is, if you go right back into the toxic environment that put you there in the first place, it's never, never, never going to work.
Speaker ANo, never.
Speaker AAnd unfortunate.
Speaker AAnd it's unfortunate.
Speaker ABut, you know, that's.
Speaker AThat's life.
Speaker AI tell people.
Speaker AThat's life.
Speaker AThat's cyclical.
Speaker ALike, people change.
Speaker APeople go in and out of relationships.
Speaker AThey're put there for reasons like, you know, learn from every experience and know that not every relationship and every experience is going to stay.
Speaker AI mean, it's just.
Speaker AThat's how life works.
Speaker AJust learn from them.
Speaker BBut, yeah, yeah, well, it's so trying to change them.
Speaker BThey're not going to change.
Speaker BA narcissistic, dysfunctional family, they're not going to recognize.
Speaker BBut even if you.
Speaker BIf you try to tell them, point to their dysfunction, they're going to.
Speaker BThey're going to gaslight you and project it back on you.
Speaker BSo that's a waste of time.
Speaker BAnd if you Stay in the field.
Speaker BYou might be tempted to do something like that.
Speaker BSo take back your power, take your space, and let.
Speaker BGive yourself the time to recover.
Speaker AYep.
Speaker AAnd I, I agree with.
Speaker AYou know, when we always think we can change people or we can be good enough that they're going to want to change.
Speaker AAnd especially when you're dealing with a narcissist.
Speaker AOh, I love your cat.
Speaker AEspecially when you're dealing with that, you know, you can't even hardly.
Speaker AI had one girl that was like, well, I'm gonna get him to go to therapy.
Speaker AI was like, it's.
Speaker AHe will never admit that part of the problem could possibly be him.
Speaker ALike, that's the whole thing.
Speaker ALike, it will, you know, he won't, he won't go.
Speaker AAnd somehow it's gonna turn around and you're not gonna like what you find.
Speaker ALike when it flips and eventually she's like, you know, you're right.
Speaker AYou can't change someone.
Speaker AThat's who he is.
Speaker AAnd I'm like, absolutely not.
Speaker AAnd for your own peace of mind, don't try to change someone.
Speaker AChange yourself.
Speaker AGrow and do what you got to do to be happy.
Speaker BYes.
Speaker BYeah.
Speaker AYeah.
Speaker ASo I love what you do.
Speaker AI love.
Speaker ASo how do you work with people?
Speaker AI mean.
Speaker BWell, yeah, yeah, I mean, I do, I do energy work with people.
Speaker BAnd I mean, I'm kind of, I'm, I'm in the process of transitioning to bigger kind of.
Speaker BBecause I've been getting all these downloads about the trauma matrix and how the real matrix is traumatized.
Speaker BSo I'm setting up this kind of, I'm leveling up what I'm doing, moving from kind of personal trauma around, limiting your power to this kind of the over the underlay of trauma.
Speaker BAnd that's, that's really what I'm focusing on.
Speaker BSo at the moment I, I'm, look, I'm creating some, creating something for, for scapegoats particularly.
Speaker BAnd I have some special offer for them.
Speaker BSo if people want to check that out, I'll pass on the, pass on the link to you to.
Speaker BSo I'm just looking for a couple of people to beta test a process that I'm looking to take people through.
Speaker BSo if you're interested in that, definitely check me out.
Speaker BOr, you know, it's, it's.
Speaker BI just say to people, you know, if this is speaking to you, it's speaking to you for a reason.
Speaker BYou know, if you're still here in this conversation, there, there's something here for you.
Speaker BSo, you know, act on Us, you know, get.
Speaker BGet help.
Speaker AYeah.
Speaker AAnd talking about it is the absolute first place to start.
Speaker AThat's no lie.
Speaker AAnd just being aware, you know, I've had people say, oh, awareness is the key.
Speaker AWell, awareness is the key, but then you still have to take action.
Speaker BSo awareness is step one, recognizing.
Speaker BThen you've got to go through the process of feeling it all, you know, and that's.
Speaker BAnd that's very painful.
Speaker BIf you've had a lifetime where you've been the victim of abuse, narcissistic abuse, you know, recognizing and uncovering that, it's a.
Speaker BIt's a betrayal.
Speaker BParticularly if it was your mother, your father, someone who you thought was.
Speaker BSomeone that you thought you could trust, they were actually stabbing a knife in your back.
Speaker ARight.
Speaker ASo what would you give if you had to give?
Speaker AMaybe a couple.
Speaker ABecause it seems like the conversation went completely to narcissism, which is fine.
Speaker AI mean, that's fine because so many people are dealing with it.
Speaker AWhat are some, like, quick red flags for people if they're questioning if that's what's wrong or what's going on or the relationship they're in?
Speaker BI think it's about recognizing, like, how do you feel around this person?
Speaker BI think narcissists, they kind of suck your energy.
Speaker BThey make everything about them in one way or another.
Speaker BSo if you have.
Speaker BIf you're around someone who's telling you that you're too much, that you're too sensitive, they're invalidating your feelings, and you just feel like after you've had a conversation with them that was just, like, paper thin, that didn't go beyond the surface, and that was all about them, all about, you know, soothing their curiosity and their anxiety.
Speaker BThen, you know, there are some questions.
Speaker BI think it's important to ask yourself some questions to see whether that relationship is serving you, and you don't have to kind of figure out if they're a narcissist.
Speaker BBut, you know, even.
Speaker BEven if they're just sucking you dry like that, I think you're entitled to create some space.
Speaker BEven if it's not going contact, you know, going no contact.
Speaker BI mean, just say that you'll talk to.
Speaker BTalk to the person once every once in a blue moon or whatever.
Speaker BYou don't have to.
Speaker BDon't.
Speaker BYou shouldn't feel obligated to talk to someone once a week or once a day or once or whatever they want just to.
Speaker BJust to make them feel better.
Speaker BSo it's really checking into how you're feeling when you're around them and, you know, just.
Speaker BJust become aware about narcissism, aware of narcissism, and also the more subtle forms of narcissism, like covert narcissism.
Speaker BBecause I knew all about narcissism, but I never knew my mother.
Speaker BI never clocked that my mother might be a covert narcissist.
Speaker BThis is the thing I'd read all about, listened to podcasts, but I'd never clocked it.
Speaker BI always thought that I was just, like, exceptionally sensitive and that I had internalized all this stuff because.
Speaker BBecause of, like, emotional neglect.
Speaker BBut it turns out there was something more insidious happening.
Speaker AYeah.
Speaker BAnd, yeah, I think the recognizing that was, in a sense, was very painful, but also, in a way, somewhat validating because it wasn't just me then.
Speaker BIt was.
Speaker BThere was something bigger going on.
Speaker AWell, and I think in general, just listening to your gut.
Speaker AI mean, so many people, especially when you grew up in chaos and being mistreated and neglected, you were taught not to listen to your gut instinct because either.
Speaker AEither you listened to it and it didn't matter if you said something, you were shot down for it or punished for it.
Speaker ABut I think once you become an adult and you're out on your own, I think that's the biggest piece of advice I can give people, is if it doesn't feel right.
Speaker AIt's not.
Speaker BI think that you've just summed it up exactly.
Speaker BIt's that simple.
Speaker BIf it doesn't feel right, as if it's true, act like it's true.
Speaker AYeah.
Speaker ABecause I. Yeah.
Speaker AI feel like your gut instinct is your truth.
Speaker AI mean, it is absolutely your truth.
Speaker ASo.
Speaker AAbsolutely.
Speaker AWell, so great.
Speaker ASo if people.
Speaker AI know you're going to give a free gift, and I will put that in the show notes.
Speaker AIf people want to find you, just real quick.
Speaker AEverything will be in the show notes, but what's the best way for them to find you?
Speaker BCheck me out on Instagram.
Speaker BI'm just.
Speaker BIt's trauma matrix, so you can find me there.
Speaker AOkay, perfect.
Speaker AAnd you're not off the hook yet, so if you had to leave people with.
Speaker AWell, first of all, thank you so much for coming, Emma.
Speaker AThis was enlightening.
Speaker AAnd I could probably talk to you forever.
Speaker BYeah.
Speaker BIt's so good to talk to people who get it.
Speaker BYou know, it's really refreshing to not have to.
Speaker BPeople look away.
Speaker BThey don't want.
Speaker BThey feel uncomfortable.
Speaker BAnd to be able to look someone in the eye and talk about this stuff, it's really.
Speaker BIt's really nice.
Speaker AYeah.
Speaker BI appreciate that, too.
Speaker AAgreed.
Speaker AAgreed.
Speaker AAnd hopefully that's what this podcast is doing, because I hope people are listening and feeling.
Speaker AI do have people reach out to me after the podcast personally and be like, wow, like, you guys hit the nail right on the head, like, what's my next step?
Speaker AYou know?
Speaker AAnd that's really what we're trying to do, is share the information and help people become aware, because so many people, this is their norm.
Speaker AThey grew up that way, and they have no idea that a better life and a happier life and a life with boundaries and a life with being yourself is even out there.
Speaker AYeah.
Speaker BPutting yourself first, I think that's really the key.
Speaker BNot.
Speaker BIt's not all about what someone else feels or what someone else wants.
Speaker BLiving your life for you, your own terms and being your.
Speaker BBeing your true identity.
Speaker BBecause when we're in a narcissistic system that is not allowed.
Speaker BYou have to play the role.
Speaker BYou have to do the thing that the system wants you to do.
Speaker BAnd it's not, in a sense, it's not personal.
Speaker BThat's not to say that nobody holds any responsibility, but it's a systemic thing.
Speaker BIt's like the system kind of operates to smother everyone, so.
Speaker ARight, absolutely.
Speaker ASo, okay, so I said you weren't off the hook, but I want you to give some last words of wisdom from Emma Lyons.
Speaker ALike, what if you could give people one either tip, trick, strategy, or just something to keep with them for the day, what would it be?
Speaker BThat's a tricky one, because it's.
Speaker BI think.
Speaker BI think just talk about this.
Speaker BIf.
Speaker BIf you're resonating with this, it's not even a trick.
Speaker BIt's like, find someone to talk to about it.
Speaker BIt's not a trick at all or a tip.
Speaker BIt's just reach out and talk to someone who understands.
Speaker BIt's simple.
Speaker BDon't try to talk to your friend who doesn't have a clue what's going on, or don't try to talk to your family.
Speaker BIf you suspect this in your family, find someone who gets it and have a conversation with them, because then you'll get that resonance and that.
Speaker BThat mirroring that probably you may never have gotten as a child.
Speaker BI know.
Speaker BI never got that mirroring.
Speaker BI never got my feelings mirrored back to me.
Speaker BSo find someone who can be that mirror for you and be really discerning about who you share it with, because.
Speaker AA lot of people can't handle it now.
Speaker AAnd the mirroring is super, super important and beneficial.
Speaker AAnd yes, I tell people when you choose a therapist, a coach, a counselor, whatever it is, even a group that you're in.
Speaker AFind someone who has been through what you've been, that has.
Speaker AThat has that compassion and that has the empathy and the understanding.
Speaker ABecause it's like if you talk to people about, you know, if I go to therapists and talk about my life and she's asking me questions and she didn't grow up with two alcoholic parents.
Speaker AShe has no clue.
Speaker AI mean, she only has textbook knowledge.
Speaker BYeah, exactly.
Speaker BThat's the difference.
Speaker BYeah.
Speaker ALived experience.
Speaker ACoaching and therapy is a hundred percent different.
Speaker AOf course you don't.
Speaker AYeah.
Speaker AYou also don't want to go to someone that has been on this process for like, six months because you want to be.
Speaker AYou know what I mean?
Speaker ABecause it can actually be more traumatizing if you go to someone and they've just been like, just now, you know, I mean, starting on their own journey.
Speaker ABecause you want to feel safe, and that's the most important thing, is that you feel safe and heard and validated, but you also want to be, you know, if you're going to go to someone that's going to dig up all this stuff, I mean, it's.
Speaker AIt's not easy always.
Speaker AAnd you.
Speaker AYou want someone that is grounded enough.
Speaker AYeah, yeah.
Speaker BBecause I think a lot of people, disinformation comes up or they have this arena and then they get very destabilized and they're grasping for validation here, there, and everywhere.
Speaker BI've definitely seen that in other people.
Speaker BBut, yeah, everything.
Speaker BYou can find it all inside yourself.
Speaker BBut find them.
Speaker BFind the mirror that works for you, whether it be a therapist or coach, someone, your gut will tell you who's the right person.
Speaker AYep.
Speaker AI remember my very first client.
Speaker AShe said to me, I've been going to therapy for 11 years.
Speaker A$110 a week for 11 years.
Speaker AAnd in 18 minutes, you told me more about why I was the way I was.
Speaker AAnd one little thing I could do that will change my life.
Speaker AAnd I said, girl, I was you.
Speaker BYeah.
Speaker AI was like, it's that simple.
Speaker ASo.
Speaker AWell, thank you so much, Emma, for coming.
Speaker AI really appreciate it.
Speaker BYeah, thank you so much, Tommy.
Speaker BGreat to be in your world.
Speaker BThank you.
Speaker AOh, thank you.
Speaker AAnd for everybody else out there listening, you can go to the show notes, grab the little freebie, all the information you can get, and find someone to talk to, to open up with, to share your heart, share your soul.
Speaker AYou will feel so, so much better.
Speaker AThank you so much.
Speaker AAnd you guys have a blessed day.