Ep 239 How to Find Hope Again: Practical Healing Tools for Trauma Survivors: Guest Katy Parker

Well, hello everybody and welcome back to another episode of Adult Child of Dysfunction.

How are you today?

I hope everybody is doing well.

So today we have with us Katie Parker.

She is a trauma informed, well being writer, a grief and loss coach, and a mental health mentor.

Hello, can you hear me?

Can you see me?

Hold on one second.

We're having.

Let me get out of the YouTube real quick.

Hold on one second.

Just.

It's doing something fun.

Yes, I can.

I'm sorry.

Katie, how are you?

So she is a grief.

I'm going to go back and finish that again because that did not come out so.

Right.

So she is a grief and loss coach, a mental health mentor who helps others navigate invisible grief in a grief illiterate world.

A trauma survivor and chronic pain warrior, Katie draws from her own healing journey to empower others to express their pain, reclaim their voice and find peace and purpose after loss.

She shares her story on her Journey of Smiley blog and leads the PTSD My Story project and Grief Stories series which we will let her tell you all about.

In a safe space for people to share and heal through storytelling.

Katie believes healing is a right, not a privilege.

Welcome, Katie.

How are you today?

Hello.

Thank you.

Thank you, sir.

Yep, I am.

Well, I hope everybody else as well.

Oh, yeah, I'm sure they are.

I don't.

Where are you in the world?

I'm in England located.

Okay.

Okay.

So a bit gray day here today.

But yeah, it's actually, I'm in Florida and it's been raining for like a week and a half, so it's actually nice to see some sunshine out of my window.

So that's great.

So you have been.

I'm just going to jump right in because we were talking a little bit before here and you kind of deal with grief and loss and, and trauma and of course those things all tie together.

And tell me about how you got started as a grief and loss coach.

Oh, I think before I answer this, maybe I need to really tell my whole story, but really, how, why or how?

Because I had so many loss in my life and Alaska kind of profound loss I had.

I didn't even know I was going through grief.

And for somebody not even knowing they're going through grief, that they're grieving, I think it was quite, yeah, quite important for me.

I think, you know, that's why I was thinking, okay, I think people should really know that they are going through grief and loss because if we don't know, how are we supposed to even heal from something we don't even know what they are going through.

So then I was thinking surely there must be other people just like me until going through some grief or loss, they might not even know they going through it.

So I think I might actually be able to help them because now I'm on my journey a little bit further.

And that lost kind of why I say I didn't know it, it was because that loss wasn't really.

Or grief wasn't really connected to death.

And we live in a grief literally, you know, society when we always just think of grief as something that comes after a loss of a person after death.

And my.

My kind of really profound loss that I had lost wasn't really connected to death.

What was it?

Do you mind if I ask what it was connected to?

Yes.

So I hit in 2020.

I had a bad accident.

I was crossing the road and one, yeah, a colleague of mine did hit me with her car and had my head as I fall down and I wasn't able to move.

I end up in hospital later.

It's like it was.

It happened in lockdown.

So there was a witness who saw it.

They called my husband, ambulance came, police came, you know, everything.

And I ended up then in a hospital for almost two weeks with fracture vector.

And later on as well, a week later as I was there, I as well had my.

And I was diagnosed later on with ptsd.

So post traumatic stress disorder.

So going through this all for two and a half years until I actually didn't get the psychologist that I really needed to get and the help that I really needed.

I didn't really know that I was experiencing grief because we always kind of talk about grief when somebody does.

And I have lost my mom already before that.

Now is it 13 years ago.

So I knew what is it Gray?

I just didn't know we can experience it after loss of a health like I did.

That was my.

A loss that was really living losses like loss of a life I had before that because my life really changed in a second.

Right.

Can say so then a loss of dreams, of the future, of expectations.

They're all unmet.

There was really lots of losses.

I didn't know I. I knew I am missing things.

Right.

Going through grief.

So yeah, that's.

So how was it?

So what were some.

I mean, I know what some of the symptoms were.

Like you said you just felt like you were missing something.

You were like talk about some of the symptoms.

Like what made you go.

Did you go to a counselor or a psychologist and they said you're grieving or how did you actually back.

Actually almost.

Yes.

You know, so actually it was almost really like this.

So just to kind of put it back in 2020, I had that accident.

Then I came home and I was recovering for about 10 months.

I was back at work.

I started.

I wanted to go full time back, but every day, imagine your crossings the same road where you had accident, go to work.

And as I said, that was my colleague.

So sometimes as I saw the colleague and I was still in pain.

So the pain every time just get worse and worse because there's a trauma.

We know if you don't really, you know, process this, it just comes as pain as well, as well as depression and other things.

Like I had anxiety because I had a ptsd.

I was diagnosed with ptsd.

So I did have some kind of.

In two and a half years that I had some kind of.

Or two years, I think after the accident, I had some kind of therapies and so.

But nothing really, specially for ptsd.

Now, two years after my putting my body through all this and ending up back in hospital and kind of back to my gp, backside of work, but then getting better again.

So go back to work and trying to get full time, although I never really made it to full time, to be honest.

Yeah, my body just was going up because there were days where I could not even hold my neck, actually.

Yeah, I hold my head on my neck and, you know, sit or stand or nothing.

And I was thinking, I don't want to live like this.

So slowly, slowly came negative thoughts and suicidal thoughts as well.

Because, yes, yeah, I did have a amazing support in my husband who was looking after me, working, looking after our household.

And so.

But I think sometimes it's even worse because we just think I'm just a burden to him because look at what everything he has to do, right?

And so really, thanks to those things, I. I knew I had a ptsd.

But I really like, okay, I'm trying to have some therapies for it or whatever, things didn't really work.

And then two years after, early enough and my body really just cried and I almost actually started to listen to those whispers.

I was like, okay, I need to do something.

Because, you know, as I said, my mom passed away as well.

And I was 13 years.

I even prayed to God that he takes me away.

Because I was thinking, do you know what?

My mom had a cancer.

That's how she died.

And I was thinking she.

She was in pain.

And then she's not now anymore.

I want to go there too.

I don't want it.

I am still young to live for another 40 years or 50 or I don't even know how many kind of like live like this.

I just cannot do it.

I am in so much pain every day.

So how did you, how did, how did they help you get out of that pain?

Yeah, so actually just want to say to your previous question as well.

So then when I was really so down and like God is my thing because he sends us people into our way, I finally contacted the lawyers first.

And through lawyers I was able to gain help through the insurance through lawyers, I was able to gain help first by case manager who kind of get me the therapist and psychologist who I really need it.

And meeting with the psychologist I had EMD therapy.

So is the eye movement desensitization and the processing if I said it right.

And then, you know.

Now two years ago, my mother in law passed away.

And at a time when we did find out that she has got terminal cancer, until the time when she actually passed away, it was three months.

And in those three months I was, I was watching my husband go through frustration, anger, all those things.

And I started to recognize, almost mirroring me, I was like, that's what I am going.

But not like from when my mom passed away, but I'm going this like true now, right?

And I'm like, wow, it's like, no.

And.

And then I was just like, oh, no, no, Katie, don't even think so.

Because he's losing a person.

But you haven't lost anybody.

Like, you know, just don't even think Like I was thinking, no, I cannot have those thoughts.

Like I cannot even compare those things.

What I, you know, I'm missing or what, what happened to me to he's losing a person.

This surely is like that biggest loss or whatever.

Like the hardest ever, you know.

So I didn't want to even think of like, no, no, you need to be okay and you need to be actually strong now for him as well.

I was thinking, right, so going to psychologist as you said.

Exactly.

That's what she said to me.

I went there and I said to him, I said to her, yeah, those are my feelings.

I'm trying not to have them because honestly he's losing a person.

But I don't know if I'm crazy or what.

And she was like, Kathy, you are going through grief.

What you are experiencing is grief.

And I'm like, no, no, no, no.

Like I am alive.

Nobody died.

No, no, everybody told me, at least you are alive.

And I was like, doctor said I'm the lucky girl, I'm alive.

Like, surely I'm not like.

But then I don't know because I'm in depression.

I had a suicidal thought.

I don't want to be in it anymore.

Anger, but anger kind of more even to my.

Towards my own body because it's not doing what I'm telling it and it's following me, you know, it's just like, why you not working the way I want you to work?

Like, I do everything.

Just please.

I'm just like, that's bargaining.

And I'm like, it's like, you know those five stages of grief?

And I'm like, no, not really, to be honest.

And she's like, no, that's what you are experiencing.

And I know like now, and I mentioned those five stages, everybody will go, oh, grief doesn't come in stages.

And it doesn't.

Oh, absolutely it does.

But it is knowing this, it helped me to recognize that I am going through something that is totally normal.

This even has the name is Goody and can happen even when you lose your health, your job, because later on I lost even my job because of my hope.

Your dreams, your future, your life as you knew it, everything, any unduly or even actually positive changes when we finish university or something and there's suddenly a change.

And so anything really can cause grief, really, you know, and I didn't really notice.

I said, wow, I didn't know it.

And then I said to her, like, but hey, like a moment I said to her, like, but then I was in hospital and I was so positive, you know, I. I was like, no, I'm going to get to it.

Like, I'm so positive.

And she said to me, like, do you know most people actually experience like shock or kind of even numbness and even kind of denial when this happens.

And I was thinking of my mom when I walked in and was like, yeah, kind of.

I do know.

It's like, well, then you're going through this now.

And I'm like, this is strange, you know, it's like, no, no, it's nothing strange about this.

You're going to grieve.

And anybody really, any change can actually cause this.

So really it was so today I didn't know this.

And that's why, as you said, I'm grieving loss coach as well, but as well, losses that are really living losses and that often, so unrecognized and often the word just telling you kind of, oh, just get on, you know, just get over it.

And move on and like, you know, you need to whatever, and.

And there's not even a funeral, obviously, for those wolses.

Then you don't get any cards saying, you know, I'm sorry or whatever.

There's nothing really.

So you just say, okay, I had an accident and I should really move on and get on with my life, because that's surely what everybody else is doing.

And if I have those thoughts, this is just a damn week or something, you know?

Right.

Which is, which is crazy.

I mean, it's like now that you're sitting back and looking at it, you lost something.

And grief is nothing more than processing and ex.

You know, handling a loss.

I. I deal with it.

A lot of people when they, when they go in through recovery, a lot of people in this podcast, even listening, have gone through a recovery Stage or a 12, 12 step program, and all of a sudden they get this undeniable, like, depression or sadness, and they're like, I don't understand.

And I'm like, you're literally grieving the person that you're leaving behind.

I mean, there are so many different living losses.

Like, you said that you, you process it the same way.

Can you talk about in general, you know, real quickly, summer up, summarize the five stages of grief?

Because I think it's very important for the listeners to be able to.

If they question, like, am I going through grief?

Is this something I'm doing that they can see how it can fit into the different phases of maybe what they're going through?

Yes.

So, yeah, the Stages of Grief by Elizabeth Koblem as well.

I want to say, you know, before I start talking about them, a lot of people say grief doesn't go in stages.

And I understand why they say it because it almost feel like it goes in a circle or so.

But just because we have those five stages of grief, it doesn't really mean that we will be going through them, you know, like on the stairs or so that's what people often think.

So, yeah.

So those stages are denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance and days as well.

I know David Kistler wrote a book, Finding Meaning.

That's the sixth stage.

So, yeah, but really, I think I, I went through them all.

Like, the first, as I said, denial was just like.

I was like, no, everything will be fine.

You know, even the doctor said, like, it's going to take a long time.

I'm like, okay, I'll do it.

Like, you know, I'll be fine.

Especially you in a hospital where you have all this Help around you is just like, oh, I feel like I'm like almost in a hotel.

Just everything hurts me.

They give me some medication, but everybody's looking after me perfect, you know.

So, yeah, that's how it kind of almost felt.

And then that comes the anger.

You know, this can be really towards anybody.

Like when you lost a person or say you can have an anger now towards the medical team or whatever by teaching, haven't saved them.

And so you can have like me maybe anger towards your own body if you have health issues still.

Like, why is just the body not listening to you?

Even though I didn't listen to my body, to be honest.

And then, you know, really you can just have an anger against anybody.

God, why God actually allows this?

Or so then you go to bargaining, as I said, you know, like, God, if you just do this, you know, I will be, I don't know, praying so many times or I don't know.

Or if I just eat this or take this medicine, my body surely.

And then it's like, why is it not doing like, oh, come on.

I bargain.

And he's not listening to me.

So yeah.

And then, then is the depression because you get frustrated and you get depressed because he's not doing this.

And so.

And he just got.

I got into depression and I think because I tried to go into work, like, you know, and as I said, it was so many times in so much pain and sleepless nights and everything and phoning in the morning work that I'm not coming to work.

And the next day again.

And so I dreaded this phone call.

I was like, I don't want to phone again and I'm not coming to work.

Oh, no, no, no.

What do you think of me?

You know, and all these things and then it just gets you even more depression.

So yeah.

And is the acceptance.

And this is what we often get wrong, I would say because we often think acceptance is.

Oh.

Which is, you know, acceptance means just that we are okay with what happens.

So how can I be even okay that my mom passed away?

How it can be okay that this happen me, but it isn't really acceptance days.

Like I see acceptance as I accept my feelings.

I accepted.

I have hard days as well.

I accept it.

Unfortunately.

This is the reality.

If I want to see it or not.

This is the reality.

I cannot change it.

Right?

But I can, I don't know, having if I want about it, okay, go somewhere and scream and whatever.

Kick into pillow or whatever.

I don't know, do something, just get it out of, you know, I can cry, I can whatever.

I have so many feelings about it, and I can accept that I have those feelings and I can do something about this, but I cannot change what happened, unfortunately.

I don't have to be all right with what happened, but I cannot change it.

But I can live despite this.

And that's what I would say.

Is this finding meaning?

That I can perhaps in this find a meaning?

Because like I said recently to a stranger at a gym where I was, who said to me, oh, you're so positive about this.

And I was like, well, only had two really ways, you know, either this would break me or I will make something out of it.

Right.

Really only had those two ways, really.

So that's how I saw it.

So it breaks me or.

And lots of people think, and we talk about this, that the pain they going through is kind of something what connects us to the losses.

So, you know, we lost a person or we need to be now in pain all the time or whatever, but it's actually not for me.

Pain is almost like a prison.

And you don't have to be prisoners of pain.

You can still honor your loved ones you lost or whatever you lost by moving forward whilst you honor this, but make something out of it.

Because I really think is actually the love and honoring those losses.

What is the connections, you know, and not the pain really?

Right.

What are some other tips like that your psychologist gave you as far as how to deal with some of the different stages?

Because I know you don't go through them.

Like you said, it's.

It's not linear.

It's not like you go through stage one, two, three, four, five.

I mean, you're gonna go, you might even accept it, but then you're going to wake up one morning, you're going to be pissed off like it just happened yesterday and you're angry all over again.

And you go, you bounce them back and forth between the stages.

What are some things that you would do to get yourself out of those?

Like, you know, if you accepted it, but then all of a sudden you go back and you're a little depressed.

What are some things that you do to bounce back and forth from those stages?

I would say probably the biggest one is don't judge yourself.

That's what.

That's one thing which she never even didn't judge my feelings, you know, And I was like, now I'm thinking, how often did I judge my feelings?

Almost every day.

Right?

Yeah.

So don't judge your feelings.

Really.

I came to the thing And I just as I said Tinar is okay is not going to be good day to day I really like.

But even in that bad day I can find maybe something.

I can make up my bed and I can move something and do some exercise.

I don't have to do, I don't know, one many things.

But the good thing is, I mean no good if we can call it good is that like once I was going through this as well.

I'm as well chronic pain warrior now and I'm spraying that chronic pain.

There was actually on the.

On the pain management Institute like try to do maybe three things a day, you know, so it's kind of one thing.

It's like you don't have to do everything but just okay.

Even if I'm in grief, I'll just do maybe like three things.

And that's actually fine as well with my pain as a.

Because yeah, as a chronic pain warrior, that's actually enough.

I don't have to run the marathon and I cannot, you know, I just really need to.

So that was really important.

Like don't judge yourself.

I would say for me, what really helped me as well was something because there's so much guilt in grief, you know.

Yeah, we judge ourselves.

That's one thing.

But in that's all there's so much blame, shame and grief.

I was living with grief, guilt and shame and blame for many years.

And that was actually her, my psychologist who reminded me of this, that that's what is still in me.

Because like I said, my mom died before and I'll get now a little bit to this story.

I am originally from Slovakia and my mom lived in Slovakia and I moved to England 20 years ago.

And when I moved to England I met my husband here.

But as well, six months after or so but as well, my mom got ill then.

Yeah, a year after.

So.

And I went home for the whole summer because she got cancer.

I was diagnosed with cancer.

So I came home and I stayed there for the whole summer.

Then actually they were thinking she's getting better and kind of, yeah, I went back to England and I did find a job here.

Luckily I did find things to go to job that allows me to go home every six weeks.

So I spend every six weeks with her.

And so.

But unfortunately, four years after she got the first cancer, it returned.

And I then was in university.

I was in university.

I was.

I actually how we did find this terminal cancer was because I went home that for Christmas.

That.

Yeah, that Christmas.

And a doctor I went.

My mom was in hospital.

So I went to see her in hospital and we were supposed to take that day home.

But as I was them, my man said to me go to see the doctor and ask him like about.

Yeah like what he thinks and what he's saying and stuff.

Because she had an operation that was successful and her lungs.

Cancer and lungs.

But I just wanted to know more information.

So.

So I went to speak to Dr. And then I was in his office when he's just telling me and I have to speak to you, Ms. Parker.

Like, unfortunately your mom got terminal cancer.

I'm like, what?

Like what is it even like me, like, tell me.

Like I'm planning like they're planning wedding with my husband like in summer.

Like is it like okay, my mom has like a year or what?

I don't know, five years, two years.

It's like I'm not sure if she be still like here.

I'm like, no, no, she will be like, you know, and then be going back to this denial.

Like, no, no, like she will be here.

Like obviously she will be here, you know.

And it's like, no, okay.

I cannot even say to you how long she has got.

But I know she's got 10 minute cancer.

It doesn't look good.

And I was like, okay, so how much money you want or what you need from me?

I'll give you anything to save my mom, honestly.

Because like there is nothing I can really do for your mom and there's nowhere in the world something that could actually save your mom's life.

So I was like, honestly, that's not normal that you need to do something.

But I started to cry in front of him.

Now I'm all in tears and I'm supposed to go to see my mom and tell her how you know what the doctor told me, but I cannot tell her this.

So he has got a sink in his office.

I asked if I can wash my face and get a little bit more presentable coming to see my mom.

And so I did so.

And I was walking on the stairs up to your room.

Found my husband in a corridor, broke into tears again.

And then I, I told him everything and he was actually coming for Christmas, spending Christmas that then was still my boyfriend and he was coming here and get my mom from hospital and driving us home or.

And I said to him, like, I don't know how I can now go to mom and speak to him.

Speak to her, you know, my mom.

And that's why I have junior Smiley my block.

Because she called me Smiley because I Always smile.

And I was like, I cannot go there.

And she always said like, oh, when you come to hospital, it's like the sunshine would get me.

You know, it's like you just bring smiles.

And so.

So yeah.

And I was like, how am I supposed to now come?

Like I cannot do this.

So I was like, okay, I'm taking my deep breath and some and going down.

And I did not tell my mom for the doctor said to me luckily she was kind of first like asleep, had enough and so but she knew I am dead.

So she was like, oh, what A doctor said.

And so when she got up and I was just like, did you had an amazing patient?

That's what he said.

Because that's what he kind of said as well to me.

He said, I cannot.

Right?

She's such an amazing patient.

She's full of positivity.

She gives the encouragement to other people.

They're coming to her, speak to her.

And so she gives them like, you know, so I just said that you're an amazing patient.

That's what he said.

I was like, oh gosh, I just cannot.

Please go to help me.

I cannot.

So that's.

I said and you know, that was all I could say.

And then yeah, from there I'm really.

I.

When my mom passed and away three months like.

Like yeah, the Christmas happened and everything and I went back to England.

My brother then stayed with my mom because we spoke together and I said, you know, that's what doctor said we cannot leave her alone.

So I said I just need to go finish my university.

But I mean I was a huge dilemma because it's my mom there and.

But I'm still becoming every six.

Every six weeks I'll be coming home.

But yeah, just let me to do this until summer.

And you know, I. I didn't really think my mom is going to pass away and the funeral will be on the 1st of April.

I really didn't think so I just said to my brother, just two whilst I.

Because he had the ability to do this then.

And I was like.

And I just go to finish this, finish my work, finish everything in England and I'll come and I stay as long as needed.

I don't need an.

I don't care that anymore.

I just need those few months I need.

And so I was coming like you know, in February I was then I was so grateful that I saw her six weeks before she passed away because I didn't make it when she did pass away because I was in hospital waiting for my own operation.

And so I was living the dead grave and guilt and shame and blame for so many years.

Because, yeah, I supposed to have a dead day when she passed away.

Unfortunately, I was supposed to have my own operation.

I was in hospital.

But when my brother sent me messages in common and I had a.

Tickets to go home, that was Friday, and I had a ticket to go home on Sunday or Monday, something like this.

So, yeah, three days later.

And.

But when I saw that message, I knew I need to go home that day.

So I found my husband now, my husband that, you know, I need to go home.

He got me the tickets, got the hospital.

I said to nurses, I need to go, like now.

And I packed my stuff then just for funeral, when I got home, packed my stuff and I was.

We were on the way to hospital, on the way to the airport.

We were at the airport, we had some time.

So my husband went to get me some drink.

And so I remember this.

And then the dreadful call came.

Yeah, that's always the worst from my auntie.

And I saw that call on the phone and I was just like, please.

Not.

Please, God, no.

Like, I don't want.

Like, I don't want to hear this.

I just want to hear something like, I don't know, maybe there's a miracle she won't get her from Comma.

Or, I don't know, something that is okay.

I just don't want to.

Right.

And I don't mean to.

I don't want to cut you off.

I know your time is very valuable.

I know.

I. I don't want to.

I don't want to cut you off, but.

Yeah, yeah, I mean, you've been through a lot.

You've done a lot.

You.

You're working with people.

I mean, that is amazing.

And helping people kind of navigate that grief.

And you do grief coaching and.

Yeah, because it's.

It's a lot.

There's guilt, there's shame, I think.

I love that you tell people, you know, don't beat yourself up.

You're going to go through these stages, is 100% natural.

I love that you mentioned some things that you did to get over it.

The EMDR therapy, that is amazing for ptsd.

For those of you that have never experienced emdr, read about it, you know, try a session or.

It's a good EMDR therapist will not do it in one session.

You're going to have, you know, you're going to go through a process, but it's a great way to navigate that.

Ptsd.

PTSD is real grief.

Is real.

I mean these things are real.

The good news is that you can get out on the other side.

You can, you can get past.

And I don't say you'll never forget, you'll never forget.

But that's life isn't about just burying everything and forgetting.

I mean we want to remember the people and honor the people.

But it like you said in a good way and learn from it.

So tell people how they can reach you if they want to work with you.

Yeah.

Can I just tell me add one more thing that helped me to previous question.

Yes.

As we were talking about shame and negative thoughts.

One thing what actually did help me and I just want to say it because I did write about this in my book Rising about that I co authored and as well I have it on my blog Journey of Smiley.

So I just in short I would say when you get this shame and negative thoughts and everything what helped me really was downward at all technique.

So really deep down, dig deep down and you find the belief that you have and you work with this.

You question your negative thoughts.

You really, you know, don't just believe everything.

Don't just your thoughts, your thoughts are not facts.

So really just you know, question them and have evidence for it.

Like you know, does it like when I did find out my my actually beliefs that went all the way to childhood because that's what normally happens.

It goes down right.

I just kind of really looked for the evidence.

Is it really true what I'm thinking?

Ask yourself always is it really true?

What are you thinking?

You know, is it and what is the evidence for it against it.

And just really talk to yourself like your best friend and you can read more about this as I said on my blog and the book and it's.

And the book is called Rising above and I'll put that in the show notes so people can grab that too.

But I just wanted to know but yeah Taylor Cristian know where to kind of find me or so yeah on social media Journey of Smiley Instagram I am on Facebook Journey of Smiley and my website Journey of Smiley.

They can find all those resources as well.

And I as well did write a free resource 7 Keys to Self healing.

They can find it as well.

And I'm working out on my book I'm supposed to come hopefully it will come next year.

Out is about this living losses we experience.

And really you know how as I said you're grieving and you need to go through it and it will be all those things in it.

So yeah.

Yes.

Well thank you so much.

And I'm going to put all of those in the show notes for your free gift.

I noticed you had a free gift in there, so we'll make sure all of that is in there.

I thank you so much for coming on.

Like I said, I want to be respectful of people's time.

So I don't, I don't mean to cut you off, but thank you so much, Katie, for coming on and I appreciate you.

I thank you.

I thank you so much for having me.

Thank you so much.

You are very welcome.

For everybody else out there listening, you heard a great story.

Sad, touching.

But she also gave some tips and tricks.

So know that you're not alone if you're grieving.

Grieving, like she said, does not have to be from the death of a loved one.

That is not the only reason we grieve.

There are many, many, many reasons we grieve, many living losses.

There is anticipatory grief where you know something bad is going to happen.

There is all kinds of grief.

So reach out to her.

Reach out to her and reach out to me.

You know, if you just want to talk, whatever it is, grief is normal and it's absolutely nothing to be ashamed of.

So bless you all, all have a good week and we will see you back very, very, very soon.

Thank you, guys.