E 229: The Sound of Healing: Rob Tonkin on Music, Trauma, and Recovery

Well, good morning, everybody, and welcome back to another episode of Adult Child of Dysfunction.

Today we have with us Rob Tonkin.

And I'm just.

We're just gonna jump right in.

We had a little bit of talking beforehand and we weren't quite sure which way this is gonna go.

And I'm very curious because like all of us, he's had some schmuck in the.

In the past and dealt with it in amazing ways.

We're going to start off by talking about his book, which is literally titled Asshole.

I think it's a memoir, right?

That's correct.

So I'm going to jump right in there because as we kind of talked about, like not many books out there jump out that vividly with a title.

And if you look at the book.

So the book is titled A Memoir.

If you look at the book, there's a picture of a little boy on the front of the book.

For those of you that are not looking, I'm going to put a post in there.

But how.

Just talk to me, Rob.

How did this come about?

First of all, thanks for coming.

Oh, thank you for having me.

It came about because I had a life of a lot of trauma and it ended up into wild stories, which.

Trauma has a lot of addictive qualities such as being addicted to excitement.

And I think that I definitely was drawn to excitement.

And specifically the, the title, it is self deprecating, but it also has multiple meanings because it refers to the people that treated me like an a hole and also people that I encountered who were also a holes.

And it sort of crept into my being and I became one as well.

Not all the time, but I'm sure that there are many people out there that are.

That know me and, you know, had some encounter with me.

And there's a certain percentage that are going to say, oh yeah, he was, you know, or somebody I fired from a job or I spurned somehow.

So that's how it came about, getting the little boy on there.

Well, that little boy is me.

And I was getting ready to be a ring bearer in a wedding and I found this picture and thought of the concept and it just really kind of fit.

I've had people tell me they've read the book and well, I don't seem like an asshole, but they're not reading into it enough to really realize where all of this is coming from.

It's not a book where I just go off on, you know, what an asshole I was and what an asshole everybody else was, because I don't blame myself and I don't blame others.

And that's one of the healing aspects of dysfunction in general that I found.

So there's.

There it is in a nutshell.

Well, that's.

And thank you for that.

Because I was curious, because when I saw the title and then I saw the little boy, I'm like, is this about you?

Is this about the people that hurt you?

Is this about.

And now it kind of all comes circle, full circle.

Like it was about the people that hurt you, that turned you into the person that you became, but ultimately are not so.

Right.

So I love that.

So talk about what you did with music, because I love the fact that you were very successful very early on.

Like, you got into music at what age?

Well, I got into radio first, which is what music was.

There was live music, but this is the 70s, and I lived in Sacramento, and, you know, the entertainment world was not exactly the hub of our city.

So that was the closest I could get to my dream at that time was to be a disc jockey.

And so music was kind of a salvation for me.

It.

And being associated with a radio station gave me an entree to that.

So that's how I entered the entertainment world.

And then that morphed into many forms over the years.

Everything from producing a television series for PBS that involved, you know, live concert footage, to producing live concerts on the radio for international broadcast, to radio stations all over the world, to individual promotion of concerts and events, to working with brands and helping them navigate the music world and get their brand associated with it in what I called bands and brands working together.

And I was bit of a pioneer in that world.

Very cool.

But music ultimately started as your escape, as your release, as your kind of break from reality, from what was going on as a child.

Right.

Form of survival.

It was the ticket to survival.

I was being ignored and unheard.

At least these were the feelings I had.

I didn't feel like I belonged to.

I felt a bit like an outsider in my own family and in my own body, even in my own mind.

I didn't know what was going on, but I felt some validation and some recognition was possible through radio and music.

And I sensed that being in the limelight was going to help me.

And it started with being a class clown, and then it morphed into, you know, a career.

Okay, so tell me about that.

What do you mean, a class clown?

Getting attention from others and disrupting.

I became disruptive.

Okay.

And that is very common of kids that are going through trauma.

They're either silent or they are See me, see me, see me.

And they have.

I was both.

Both.

You know, I was both.

Sometimes I couldn't.

I was shy and couldn't, you know, get out of my own way.

Like in that cover shot.

What happened after that smiling kid on the COVID took that photograph?

I was supposed to be a ring bearer in a cousin's wedding, and I completely balked at it and freaked out and had a tantrum and refused to do it.

And so while one moment you see somebody who is getting the attention and is balanced, I couldn't cope with attention either.

So it was kind of both ends of the spectrum.

Excuse me one second.

Sorry, I'm.

I apologize.

I had something in my throat.

You're good.

Get a drink of water.

Do what you got to do.

Yeah, I think I'm okay.

Okay.

But no, that makes sense.

I mean, a lot of people, it's coloring, it's drawing, it's.

Music is huge.

I mean, even the type of music you listen to, I tell people when they're.

When you're depressed or you're angry or you're sad or you're happy, depending on what it is.

Like, those frequencies of music and the music tones and everything really change you in general.

Even not just.

I'm just thinking music in general, not even going out and pursuing a career in it, but just the power of sound.

I agree with that.

And I saw that firsthand in my own life, especially in writing a book, knowing what music is in the background and tying it to music, which I did, released a lot for me, because the one power of music is.

Well, there are many powers of music, but let's say that one of them is the fact that it can take you back to a memory so clearly.

And that's why music is so powerful.

We can remember maybe the first time we heard that song, or the lyric brings us back somewhere, or the melody, it doesn't really matter, but triggers something visceral inside of us that can unlock other.

Other pieces.

Also, I noticed it in my mother, who eventually was diagnosed with dementia.

And I noticed that music was an important healing aspect for her during that illness and.

And affliction.

And so it.

I, you know, it, for me, it's done a lot.

I.

Because I did it as a career, now I have to really focus on music sparingly.

I.

If I get too.

Too much stimulation from it, it brings me back to work.

So that's a little bit of a byproduct of immerse.

Immersion in anything, probably that makes sense.

That makes total sense.

But I know, talk about your mom, I mean, curious.

So did you play certain musics?

And she would light up and have some like, recognition or remembering from the different musics that you played for her or did she just make her peaceful?

I think it was a calming effect.

And sure, I made sure I, I Music was always very important to both of my parents, coincidentally.

And I think we do sort of become our parents in some ways.

My mother was very artistic.

My father was very businesslike and organized.

And I'm somewhere in the middle, you know, I would call it creative.

But my mother, I remember music and dancing was a, was something that really moved her.

And my father played music by ear, not sheet music.

And he could recall, you know, varied songs and things on the piano and that's what he would do.

And so I guess together it played a role in both of their lives and influenced me.

And then I have three older siblings who also got very into dance and music in different ways.

And all three of them had different styles of music that they were listening to.

So I was exposed to all this varied music as a young child.

They were 10 or 9, 10 and 11 years older than, than myself.

And so, you know, I, in one ear I would have Santana, and in the other one I would have Curtis Mayfield.

And then in another one it would be Van Morrison.

And all of those are very different.

And so that was actually kind of cool.

And then my father, you know, was into maybe Bing Crosby and my mom was turning on to things like Neil diamond or Per, you know, still into like Perry Como or, you know, these.

So it was, you know, the Beatles played a huge influence and the Rolling Stones and things like that.

The good music back then, right?

Not this stuff they have today.

I shouldn't say that, but I'm not.

Going to criticize music today.

I'll just say that it's changed a lot.

And for me, the biggest change is really the, the pomp and circumstance of the music has become the part that's out in front of.

And the substance is what's now very much in the background.

And a lot of it is technology.

And technology has changed all of our lives.

Everything's immediate now.

We don't think long term anymore.

Everything is about what's happening right now and what happened three weeks ago.

We don't even think about that anymore.

That's, it's out of our minds.

So.

And I think that's a lot of social media.

And anyway, I think the same thing has happened with music to some degree.

And all of entertainment you know, I, I love that you say that, though, the variation of the different music.

So we had that with my kids growing up because they spent a lot, a lot of time with their grandparents and their great grandparents.

So they got all the old music.

And my, my youngest son is a perfect example of that.

Like, his first concert was Weezer, and he listens to Eminem and he listens to all that stuff.

But then one day he called me up, this is about two years ago, and he said, hey, mom, you want to take me to a concert up in Jacksonville?

And I was like, sure, who are we going to see?

And he's like, the Spinners.

They're still playing, like, but I'm like, but it was so great to have, you know, like, the combination.

And then, like, I grew up with my dad who, you know, just listened to kind of.

I don't know, you and I are probably similar ages.

You're maybe a little older, I'm not sure.

But yeah, that music.

And then it was like, Even now, my 21 year old, you jump.

You jump in the car with him and he's playing something from the 50s, like, what are you?

And he's like, this is just what I'm feeling right now.

Well, there's, there's a huge body of work in contemporary music and, you know, what is contemporary now.

So there's a lot to pull from in.

From the beginning of rock and roll all the way through to present day and what it's influenced.

But it's definitely in a transition because, you know, rock music is a fraction of the popular sounds now.

And, you know, people are always saying, well, they've been saying rock is dead for years, but it's not really dead.

It's just this giant body of music is like a library that people can go to.

And I've had younger people turn me on to music that I didn't know was even out there, that was from the 50s or the 60s.

And age wise, to your point, I'm 63.

I was born in 1962.

Okay, so a couple years older than me.

Not many, but a couple.

Right.

And.

Yeah, but.

Oh, go ahead.

Well, I was just gonna say, I mean, the music that was popular when I was born, you know, the Beatles were just becoming popular in the uk.

They hadn't even come to the US yet.

Bob Dylan, you know, was popular with his style of folk music still.

And the Supremes, you know, were popular with their style of, you know, girl groups and Motown.

And so that, you know, it was a.

That's a very diverse array of things going on in our society, but, you know, it speaks to the reflection of the times.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, absolutely.

And.

And that's why I think I love it so much that, like, sometimes my son will be listening to something and I'm like, what.

What made you choose this today?

And he's like, today I feel like an old soul.

I'm like, so he really feel like he listens to the lyrics.

Like he knows what every story where it's funny because in this day and age, it seems like, like you said, our thinking is so flitty, like so off there, but it's like he knows every lyric and the story behind every song.

And I think that's, you know, that's like you said, the depth of the songs is just kind of changed.

But no, I love that.

But talk about.

Talk about a little bit more about.

I know you had a really rough kind of middle teenage type years.

How did you.

What things did you use besides music to kind of jump out of that?

Like, did you ever get depressed?

Did you ever get.

I mean, you said you were kind of an a hole.

Was that a result of those years?

I think there was an undercurrent.

I mean, first of all, I grew up with some degree of privilege I didn't grow up in.

I think there was a misnomer that from a lot of people that they think that, well, if you grow up with a great home over your head and eating good food and.

And being able to be driven places and having enough money to go to Disneyland, that everything's great and you are a happy child and that's a ticket to happiness.

Well, that doesn't equate.

It doesn't really matter what socioeconomic category that you come from.

So I had some degree of privilege, but at the same time, I was starved for attention and love and support and safety.

And that is also a.

Neglect is a form of dysfunction and abuse.

And so that's really where the root of my childhood trauma came from, is it?

It came from my parents being too busy with their own shit and not able to focus on the needs of a new child in a family that already had five people in it.

And so I was the last of the six of us.

And I think that, you know, my mom knew that she didn't want to be married to my father the day they got married, but went through with it.

And.

And also laws were very different then.

Divorce laws were different.

Abortion laws were different.

So people can't really look at it through Today's lens of what somebody was going through back then.

But when you're a small child, you feel all of that and you pick up on all of those cues and it affects you in a bigger way because you're a sponge.

And I didn't know what boundaries were.

I didn't understand how to deal with my feelings.

We never talked about feelings.

I didn't know how to really function in a lot of ways.

I just wasn't really dealt with in a way where I got that information.

And so you start going through life and you get your job and you're doing well, and you get a lot of atta boys here and there.

And I was very confused, but also unaware of what I was confused about or what was really driving me.

And when I say music was a form of survival, my career became a driver for me.

If I can have some of the success that other people have and I can be like that, then I too, will be a happy person.

And I didn't know that consciously, but that, when I look back, is how I've analyzed the.

And traced the source.

And so it came out in a lot of ways.

I mean, it came out in the way that I treated other people.

I didn't really have empathy until I started understanding what empathy was.

And that was my first understanding of empathy, was being in a therapist's office in my late 20s and the therapist explaining to me what empathy was, which I didn't even know how to feel because a lot of my feelings were numb.

Right?

I couldn't even feel things.

And that, strangely enough, that helped propel me in business and success because I could give a crap about who I stepped on, because I didn't even feel.

I didn't have a conscience yet.

When I look back, I'm mortified and ashamed of how I behaved in certain ways.

And people probably thought, oh, well, he's arrogant or he's an asshole or, you know, he's entitled or whatever.

I'm sure I got all kinds of things behind the scenes, but a lack of.

A lack of feeling and a lack of being able to feel is such a trauma thing.

But you don't know.

You didn't know any better.

Like, so if you.

If you don't feel your own feelings, you don't understand that other people have their own feelings as well.

Because that's a lot of what I went through.

Like, I didn't have that empathy because I'm like, ah, things would happen to me and people would be like, oh, my God, Tammy, that's horrific.

And I'm like, whatever.

Like, I. I didn't let myself feel.

I didn't even know.

You know, sometimes people.

I remember a therapist saying to me, well, that should make you really angry.

What, what, what do you feel about that?

I'm like, feel like I don't.

So how.

How can you treat other people as if they have feelings when you don't?

And that's totally understandable.

Well, also identify, you know, why does a kid have a tantrum?

Well, kid has a tantrum because they don't know how to express what they're feeling.

And so for me, I must have been in some pretty dramatic situations because I had a lot of tantrums and I. I didn't like the way I was being treated.

And I knew it, but I didn't know how to express it because I was too young to understand it and I was still developing.

I'm not making excuses for kids having tantrums.

I mean, I'm not a parent, so I'm.

And I'm not blaming my parents either.

They had their own stuff that they had to deal with.

And.

And a lot of this is generational, so they were handed, you know, giant trash bags full of crap that they carried around with them, and that weighed them down.

And then they didn't really know how to communicate with one another very well.

And they didn't teach any of us kids how to communicate with others because it was just constant chaos.

Right.

And there was alcohol involved and there was shouting and a lot of profanity.

And so then you go through life trying to recreate those situations subconsciously because that's what is comfortable to you, which is crazy, but that's the root of dysfunction.

And so I went through life, you know, with this addiction to excitement, as I mentioned earlier.

And that's just me trying to recreate all of these scenarios to make myself feel comfortable or to soothe myself.

And I picked up a lot of other bad habits to soothe myself in the process.

I understand that one totally.

For people that don't understand, it's really hard to describe and explain.

Explain how your brain works.

The fact that you will, you know, you grow up with a narcissistic parent and you're going to marry a narcissist.

And it's.

It's very hard for people to go, well, you grew up like that.

Why didn't you see the signs?

Well, I did see the signs, but your brain would rather be comfortable and familiar or be it craves familiarity.

It's drawn to that.

And that's why, you know, I always.

We talk about cycle breakers, you know, you have to be that one that goes, I'm gonna ignore the red flags.

I know exactly what my brain says go for.

And what is such so wrong for me?

And it is very hard to understand because people go, you grew up with an alcoholic.

Why would you drink?

You grew up with this.

Why would you do that?

And it's because you.

It's all, you know, one and two, like you said, you're from.

It's familiar and it's.

You're drawn to it, and it's so frustrating for people to understand.

But I. I totally get it.

If we fast forward, though.

You brought up a good point.

It's when you realize that you want to change.

And that's what happened to me.

I kept bumping into walls and I kept saying, why is my life not working?

What is going on here?

I would blame other people.

Well, that person was a jerk.

That person was an asshole.

I didn't deserve to be fired from that job, and I got fired several times.

Or I'd have some kind of sex capade, and I'd be like, well, it was her fault.

You know, she.

You know, why did I pick such a horrible person?

My picker is off, you know, and these are all just, you know, horrible excuses for not feeling.

And so what it comes down to is tuning in, because this is the transformed Rob speaking.

I. I now realize that the answers to all of life lie within myself.

And, yeah, my ability to tune into those answers is really the key.

And so I've spent a lot of time and energy trying to change myself in order to be closer to that reality of who I am, which sounds very cliche, but I had to really understand that and be guided more by my individual self and also take responsibility just for me and nobody else and stay in my own lane.

I know when you were talking back about how when you just thought, well, if I could get half the prestige and the.

The whatever of all these other people in the music industry, that you would be happy again.

I remember thinking, and I would just.

In this conversation, I was thinking to myself, so when's he gonna say he realized that it wasn't about that, that it was inside?

There you go.

Touche.

I was like, here it comes.

Because it is the truth.

We spend so much time looking for external things to help us, to make us better, to give us more money, to give us more this.

To that.

And so that we're like, we want the same thing at the end of the day.

We all just want peace, and we're looking way too much from the outside to try to find it when it's.

It's really all in here and inside.

And just the decisions, like you said, that you make on a daily basis.

You know, once you.

I mean, knowledge is power, but not until you put it into action and do something with it.

So it's like, you know, that none of that crap was your fault.

You know that?

But at the same time it happened, it made you different, and now it's time to take responsibility.

Well, you carry a lot of shame from that, too, when you start admitting these things to yourself and stop living in a form of denial.

And people talk about AA and, you know, coming out of denial in.

In programs like that, recovery programs, and that's really the essence of how they're able to heal themselves and stop drinking and, you know, put the cork in the bottle, so to speak.

But I believe that there's also that same thing with our emotional sobriety.

So it's really about making healthier choices and taking responsibility for the choices that we do make and for the mistakes that we do make.

And that takes a lot of work to get to that point.

Also, a big part of it for me has been, look, there were chapters and chapters and chapters between childhood and where I am today.

And I was chasing and chasing and running and running and running.

And I was kind of in that almost like a fight or flight mode my entire life, like an animal that was looking ahead, trying to control everything in my environment, to make sure and manipulate everything in my environment as a form of control, not consciously right, but in order to survive and feel okay.

And then I had to just say, okay, that's enough, you know, because it gets worse and worse and worse as you get older.

And I found many ways to soothe myself.

As I said, not just altered states of, you know, substance abuse, but workaholism, you know, avoidance.

You know, there are.

There are a myriad of ways and.

And so many different compulsions that we can have.

But ultimately, I think that when you get to call it the other side, the work never ends.

And I had to go back into the wounds, and I had to spend.

And I'm still spending time in these wounds now.

There are a lot of people that practically say to you, move on.

We.

Why are you spending so much time in the past?

Stop living in the past.

Why do you keep bringing up these bad memories?

Well, because I will equate it to a physical injury.

If you go to a doctor because you broke your arm.

It's a process that you go through in order to heal that arm.

Well, okay, so first we're going to diagnose it, and now we're going to set it.

We might have to rebreak it.

Let's put it in a cast.

Let's then put it in a brace, you know, then let's do physical therapy, and then let's treat it differently for a year.

And okay, now we're healed.

And you're always going to be reminded when the weather gets bad or, you know, something else that it's.

It might be there.

You're.

You.

You know, I broke a toe a long time ago surfing, got caught in a leash, and it ripped my toe forward and kind of pulled it and mangled it kind of.

And there's not a lot that they do for toes.

I mean, sometimes they'll re break them and reset them and they just tell you, this is what the doctors told me.

Tape it to your good toes.

And.

And I took a bunch of pain pills and walked around for a while, and, you know, it wasn't a pleasant experience, but, I mean, that was years ago.

And believe me, I'm still reminded of it because you use your feet every day and, and so it'll always be there.

So I think emotionally it's the same thing from those traumatic events that happen.

And if we go into them and we look around and we try to prod a little and poke at them, but with an understanding and a new outlook and really understand the source of where it happens, then we can heal from that.

And so that's been my method.

And a lot of it also is re parenting myself.

And that started in therapy.

And then I've continued that in a.

In an emotional recovery program, which is a constant tool that, that I've learned where I'm literally talking to the younger self in my mind, sometimes even out loud.

People might think that's insane, but it actually works.

And I'm identifying which child it is within me.

Is it the angry teenager or is it the toddler who isn't getting the attention, or is it the preteen that's, you know, has stars in his eyes?

Which, which part of me is reacting to.

To a situation that has to be reprogrammed in that moment?

Right.

And as a matter, I mean, and at the end of the day, they all have to be, like you said, every moment, every experience gets stuck kind of in a different place in time in your subconscious mind.

So you have to go back.

I.

We Were just joking about this the other day.

The first time a therapist said, put a little picture of yourself on the mirror when you were like four or five, or when you think all this stuff started happening and, and talk to her and tell her you're there for you or.

And you love her.

And I was like, okay, that's really weird.

Until it wasn't.

And then, you know, and it became just such part of life.

But the other message I kind of get from all this, too, is like you were saying, why do you keep talking to it?

You need to explore it, you know, and in your mind, you need to prod and poke, because it's all stuck in your nervous system.

Everything in your subconscious is stuck in that nervous system.

And like you said, you walked around your whole life in fight or flight, and that's your nervous system, and that wreaks havoc on your body.

It just.

It does such a number on your body.

So every time you can tell that story and talk it out and, and feel better, a little bit better about it at the end, it's a little bit of a release, and it's a little bit of healing.

And the more I tell people, the more you tell it, the better it gets and the easier it gets until you can tell it with literally no physiological reaction at all.

Then it's gone.

It's just a story.

And I. I think age brings wisdom, but at the same time, if you don't work at it, you can't find that calm.

And one thing I know I've been able to do is find a much calmer place.

I still get anxiety, which is part of my trauma coming up.

It happens all the time, but much less frequently and much less severe.

And I can usually catch myself and I can calm myself, whether it's through breathing or tapping or varied methods that I've learned or making the connections intellectually to why, who's, what, oh, the child is reacting.

Okay, let me tell the child it's going to be okay that, you know, this situation is not their fault.

And here's how you deal with that.

And now I'm giving myself the love and the safety and the support and.

And the.

And the wisdom that I need.

Yep, Absolutely love it.

So for the guests and.

Or for the people listening, what.

You mentioned breathing, you mentioned tapping, which is eft tapping, and we talk about that a lot on this podcast.

But what are some other methods that you use when you're starting to feel that anxiety and you just to.

To calm.

I mean, breathing and meditation are some of them.

For me, I have to regulate my body with physical movement.

So I keep a very, I mean, not to the minute or anything like that, but I try to keep a pretty constant routine in my life.

Without order in my life, I don't feel comfortable.

So not on an OCD level, but enough.

And of course OCD is part of this as well.

That's another symptom that develops and people don't really realize why they're trying to control everything.

But it's, you know, if you're obsessive about everything, you're generally trying to keep yourself out of danger.

And that's, you know, one of those symptoms.

So it's, for me, it's regulating a lot of those kinds of things.

The food that I eat, how I exercise, the amount of exercise that I do in a day, all of this is on a broad scale so that I'm able to deal with smaller situations that come up.

And then also just asking myself, you know, is this really worth losing sleepover?

Right.

And so is it in my control?

I mean, it might be as simple as me asking myself that question.

This is out of my control.

Is this any of my business?

Do I need to give advice when I'm not, when I'm not asked?

So it's all of those things essentially how you would speak to a small child who's freaking out.

And so whatever method I can come up with, it might be self care or it might be a treat.

Oh well, let me go give that kid ice cream right now because that's going to make them feel a little better.

And then, you know, that can also develop into an eating situation disorder and you can become obese.

I mean there's, everything can be extreme, but if you do things in, in good measure, I, I think I use a lot of those things.

I mean, there were probably the three or four things that helped me the most in my life overall.

One was yoga.

I did 20 years of yoga, which I think what I got out of that was being able to sit through pain and being able to stretch in ways that I never thought possible.

And I'm not talking about just physically.

You know, it helped me in every way.

And then for me, the next thing was surfing.

It was something I learned at 43 years old.

And I was paranoid of the ocean because I had a near death ocean experience in my twenties.

And so I had to face the fear of the ocean and then also learn something that is always changing.

Surf isn't like skiing.

It's.

The mountain is solid, the Snow is there when you're surfing.

It's constantly changing and moving and you are moving with it and adapting to it in order to master it.

So that also taught me fun.

Believe it or not, it wasn't fun at the beginning, but it became fun once I got over a lot of the fears associated with it.

And the, and last.

And of course therapy throughout all of this in varied forms, probably the therapy that got to the core the quickest was EMDR for me, which took me back into a lot of the wounds on a guided basis.

And lastly for me has been an emotional Recovery program, a 12 step emotional recovery program which brought me into more of a public environment.

I know that sounds weird, but into a group where I'm hearing stories from other people and I'm able to share my stories.

And it's that we're not commenting on one another's stories ever yet we are taking it all in and letting people be in their own pain.

If they cry, we don't comfort them.

You know, it's.

Which is part of learning how to stand on your own two feet.

And it's a really interesting process and that has given me more tools than any other programs.

Interesting because that's one of the things that a lot of people, I get the feedback.

Well, I went to that, I went to aca.

I, I like that people get to share, but I wish they had given some advice.

And I'm like, that's not what it's about.

It's just about people sharing.

It's about people letting go and talking, like you said, sitting in their emotions.

But I know I'll get that comment a lot.

People want to jump in and intervene and help and give their advice.

Oh no, no, no, no.

But, well, aca, you mentioned it.

I usually don't like to name the program because it's actually a tradition that they don't really like.

Because if I was to do something that was to, let's say, disturb the general public in some way and people were associating me with aca, I could endanger other people's process and their health and the reputation of aca.

But since you brought it up, I'm not going to pretend, but one of the things in the process is if you like with anything they have the people that set that program up in 1978 and the ongoing metamorphosis of it, let's say, and evolution is, it's really quite, quite powerful.

And the thing that works for me in it, and I've only been doing it for Less than three years.

But I really focus, have focused on it as a, as a, as a cornerstone to my healing.

And it took me a while to really allow myself, but I had to surrender to it.

So that's step one.

I mean, I remember my therapist, she led me to it, but she had me lay on the floor of her office once and said, okay, let go.

And I was like, what am I doing here?

You know, this isn't.

What do you mean?

Yeah, Scream, do whatever you need to do.

Let it out.

Let go.

Surrender.

You need to feel the earth and let go.

You're tightly wound.

And I thought, wow, okay.

And I didn't.

It took me a while.

But to, to what you're talking about within aca, if you work the program, the little steps and the, and the learnings, it chips away in a slow process, and it enables us to really stop intellectualizing all this stuff and to really help with a reprogramming of sorts.

Of what.

And it's not telling you how to act.

It's just, it's really remarkable.

It really.

And I wasn't digging on ACA at all.

I was just saying some of the reactions that I get from people.

I've been in ACA for 18 years, 16 years, and I, I value it a hundred percent.

I was just saying how people want, are like, they want to intervene and they want to, they want to put their two cents in.

They don't want to just sit and listen.

That's all I was, I.

There are some meetings that I've attended where they have, you know, what we're talking about, for those that probably don't know is crosstalk is what it's called.

It's when it's essentially when you're either comforting or commenting on somebody else's situation.

And if somebody asks for something after a meeting, of course, you know, you can help another person.

It's not like you want to just put your hand up and say no.

Right.

But at the same time, within the meeting, it creates a safer environment for everyone without really trying very hard.

And I've been to a couple of meetings where crosstalk is actually encouraged and allowed, and I did not find them to be as helpful.

I mean, I'm open to it, but it.

I, I think there are some people that think they have all the answers and then they're trying to tell somebody else how to act.

And, and as I try to help other fellows or begin to sponsor people in the program, I'm kind of learning my own boundaries and a lot of Listening versus telling.

And then kind of trying to pinpoint something in the program that they can hang on instead of telling them how to act or what not to do or what to do.

Well, my favorite express expression in all of those is take what you love and leave the rest.

Right.

You know, that's really what it is, is you get out of those programs what you want to get out of them and what you put into them.

Like anything in healing, honestly, you got to do the work, you gotta.

But you, you have to surrender.

I mean, I think surrender is the best word in any big broad healing arena is just at some point you have to surrender to whatever it is, whether it's your higher power, whether it's a system, whatever it is.

You have to know that you have to let go of some control.

For me, surrendering equals one word vulnerability.

And I couldn't be vulnerable in very many situations.

I was very rarely vulnerable.

And that means I'm not really being honest with myself and I'm not really being honest with other people.

And when the therapist explained this to me, it blew my mind, really.

It was such a simple thing.

And I'm like, what do you mean I'm not vulnerable?

And I of course denied it at first versa.

Yes, I am.

I've always been vulnerable.

I can express my feelings, you know, I tell people how I feel and I don't stand for things and blah blah, blah, until I really got deeper in and I, and I understood that vulnerability is powerful.

And now the more vulnerable I am, I feel more empowered.

And hence I wrote a book which wasn't on my agenda in my life, but I couldn't have been more vulnerable in my book.

So I kind of put my whole life out there for other people not to tell them how to live and not to tell them what to do.

I just shared my story, hoping that that story might help other people make their own realizations and get on a path to changing and healing themselves.

Because I spent years reading books about things and self help books and intellectualizing all this.

Oh, that's it.

Okay, so if you put the this here and the that there, of course it's attachment theory.

Oh, that makes sense.

And then I would get that one and then I would understand, okay, well th, this theory and this theory and this theory and everybody is telling you what to do.

And I also started realizing that the message is the same in every single self help book.

You know, do it my way and you'll be healed.

And I don't think that that's how it works.

I think we're all very different and we have to do what feels right to us.

And like you said, take, take, take.

What you need and, and leave the rest.

Well, I say that all the time because people are like, well, what do you.

What do you.

What works?

And I'm like, I threw everything at the wall.

Some of it worked for me, some of it did not.

Like, it's like throwing spaghetti at the wall.

You.

You stick with the things that stick and you get rid of the rest.

But I'm not telling you what's going to work for you.

I'm just sharing what worked for me.

Same, same exact, exact thing.

Because we're all unique.

We're all different.

We all get stuck on different spots.

I mean, it doesn't matter.

Every, every healing journey is 100% unique.

So what do you have to lose?

Yeah, that's what I said.

I threw everything.

I don't care.

You want to try this?

But I was a chronic learner, too, so I'm like, oh, you think I should go to an NLP practitioner?

Well, let me get certified in that first.

And then I was really bad.

Like, I was not going to be anybody's guinea pig.

But I, I mean, these were very experienced people that I was going to.

But I had to learn a little bit about it before I went, so.

But yeah, you have nothing to lose.

None of these things, short of going online and doing some crazy deep, deep, deep dive when you're not with somebody safe.

I don't ever recommend that.

If you're out there listening, there are some people that online that can bring you to spaces you don't need to be unless you're with someone safe.

So always feel safe.

That's my biggest.

But try anything.

It can't hurt emdr.

Absolutely amazing.

Absolutely amazing.

Okay.

With somebody who's certified.

Right, right.

And.

And is also a, a clinically trained therapist and has the write letters behind their.

Their name.

Exactly.

Because.

Yes, because I say that people on, like, there's so much information online and it can, it can be.

Some of it's right, some of it's wrong, but make sure that you're with somebody.

Anything that you try new safe be.

Be.

Make sure you're with somebody that you feel safe with and has the knowledge and the experience and the credit, whatever it is, to make sure that you are going to be taken care of.

Because people can do more harm than good.

Well, I've had people ask me do.

So do you want to be a life coach now?

And my Answer is no.

Not because I don't want to help people, but because I think when people are coming to me for advice on how to live their life, I'm not qualified to tell somebody how to live their life.

I'm qualified to listen and I'm qualified to, you know, point them in the right direction or a direction that I believe will help them.

But I'm not going to pretend to know things I don't know.

And I think that there are a lot of people out there that have.

And I'm not.

I sound like I'm slamming life coaches because there are probably are a lot of very good ones out there that can help in career or help in daycare or help in child situations or postpartum or whatever they are.

I mean, there's all kinds of practitioners in today's world, and many of them are very, very good, from astrologers to whatever.

And so, you know, herbs and this and supplements that and, you know, more power.

But I just can speak for me.

I.

It.

I don't have a great amount of comfort, and I would never be able to charge somebody money for that.

But anybody who's called me for, you know, mentorship or help and, you know, what would you do in this situation?

Well, sure, I can share that, you know.

Yeah.

Yep.

And.

And that's.

I think that's important to know, especially since this podcast, a lot of people are just starting on their healing journeys.

Be comfortable with whoever you're talking to.

Yeah, there's a lot of great life coaches, but I've also been coached in people telling me, you know, as long as you're one step ahead of the people you're coaching, and I'm like, you know, that's great if you're doing Facebook ads, because if someone gives you 500 and says, Grow my Facebook page.

And it doesn't grow, oh, well.

But if someone gives you 500 and says, I want this massive transformation with these different modalities, and you're one stepping step ahead of them, not so much of a good scenario.

Right.

I mean, that's.

That's kind of a whole nother topic, but we won't get into that.

But this has been absolutely amazing.

I love your story.

I love your tenacity, I love your general life lessons.

I, I appreciate that, and I'm sure the listeners do, too.

But if people want to work with you, like, what do you.

You're not a life coach, but do you work in this arena or do you just like to talk to people.

And share your Book, I think I'm on the latter.

I'm happy to talk with anyone, but that's not my career or my life's goal.

But I do think that if people read my book, they'll be entertained.

And so I don't think you get entertainment from a lot of self help books.

And I don't even know if I'd put my book in a self help category.

But.

But I have had a lot of people now who have read my book tell me, and this was an intention, but I didn't know if it would work because I had also a lot of book people and publishing people and experienced writers tell me you can't do that.

That's not what a memoir is, Rob.

You can't combine a memoir with a self help book.

And I could have put, well, I could have put a little synopsis at the end of each chapter saying, well, here's what I learned.

But I actually designed the book in a different way at the suggestion of an experienced editor who is a friend of mine and thought that really tell the story and keep people in the story.

And so that's what I did.

Now they can pick up on a lot of things I didn't need.

I tried to create scenes so that they would just experience and feel and go through my life with me.

And so people say, oh, it's a page turner because it's written in that way.

Well, then in the last part of the book where I'm still telling stories, but now I share a lot more of my personal thoughts about where I am now and how I've transformed in this kind of thing so people can take.

Take what they want and I don't do it in a way where I'm hopefully talking down to anyone or I'm telling them what to do.

And so, sure, my advice to people is, you know, probably more than anything, if I had to tell my younger self advice and somebody asked me this question and I.

And there's a song and there's an Allman Brothers song, you know, walk, Don't Run.

And I was running, running, running, running my entire life.

And I would say if you can slow down just a little bit to try to listen into yourself, then you can learn a lot more.

And that would be the only thing that I could possibly tell people on a broad scale.

Love it.

That gives me goosebumps because I literally just had this conversation and whoever I talked to yesterday, Juanita something, she literally said almost the exact same words and so clearly it needed to be heard from someone today or yesterday.

So thank you so much, Rob.

Well, I appreciate you having me on.

I enjoyed talking and meeting you, and I hope the viewers or listeners enjoy it, too.

Oh, I hope so, too.

I'm sure they will.

And for everybody out there listening, you heard another story of hope and healing and how music can change a life and change yours.

And start looking inside.

Start being aware.

Start loving what you're seeing inside and knowing that you are so worth every single step you take on your healing journey.

We will talk to you next week.

Bye.