Finding Your InnerZone with Richard Burton

Ian Hawkins 0:02

Are you ready, ready to release internal pain to find confidence, clarity and direction for your future, to live a life of meaning, fulfilment and contribution to trust your intuition again, but something's been holding you back. You've come to the right place. Welcome. I'm a Ian Hawkins, the host and founder of The Grief Code podcast. Together, let's heal your unresolved or unknown grief by unlocking your grief code. As you tune into each episode, you will receive insight into your own grief, how to eliminate it and what to do next. Before we start by one request, if any new insights or awareness land with you during this episode, please send me an email at info at the and Hawkins coaching.com. And let me know what you found. I know the power of this work. I love to hear the impact these conversations have. Okay, let's get into it.

Hello everyone, and welcome to this week's guest, Richard Burton, how are you, Rich?

Unknown Speaker 1:08

I'm great and excited to be with you. Thank you.

Ian Hawkins 1:11

Great. I'm excited to chat to I noticed some we have some mutual friends. And some of them have made comments and they're looking forward to this as well, which is

Unknown Speaker 1:22

yeah, it's exciting. It's great.

Ian Hawkins 1:25

I was trying to think about when we first connected. I was still at corporate you were you already well into your business by them. The other things that connected us and it might have been Maxie, who I interviewed a few weeks ago that actually put me in contact.

Unknown Speaker 1:41

Yeah, it was it was Neil Maxwell. And that was a great episode too, that you guys had together. So well done on that. Yeah. Maxis set the two of us up for a coffee and you were at an interesting stage. And, and clearly you had a purpose, bigger than where you were. And well done, man, everything you've done to help other people. It's been watching your journey as inspirational. It's great.

Ian Hawkins 2:07

Cheers, man, I appreciate that. And I still remember those days, and I actually reference, I reference what you taught me in that time, quite often. And it was such an eye opener. And I know we use we both use different tools around helping people with their own personal strength and value and in a zone, which we'll come more to. But yeah, just just knowing those key things, one from how I actually get the best out of myself. But the biggest eye opener was how those strengths and inverted commas actually play out as weaknesses. And then gallop Strengths Finder, so powerful, and the one that comes to mind is the Maximizer. I think that's my one on my two, and a realisation. And I've realised this more and more since we did that session was my need to have things better all the time, means that there are times where I can get caught in, like not satisfied and not being satisfied. And that isn't the worst thing. But just being able to relax and go, No, it's just how it is like doesn't have to be made any better. And how much I'd been caught in that pattern for so many years. So I'd love to just hear more about, from your perspective, the work that you do. Yep. And how you help people. And then we'll get into after that talking more about the zone.

Unknown Speaker 3:30

Yeah, for sure. So in a zone is the coaching practice that I have started in 2010. So I help people in three areas, firstly is career and helping people to decide what they want to do. That's, that's really the crux of it. So I help people who've lost their jobs. So I do a lot of redundancy work. So people that have lost their jobs, no fault of their own. And to coach them through that period to decide what they want to do next, and to secure their next role. People who are lost in their career, they've got a career, but they're lost. They don't know what else to do. They're not really happy with it. They're stuck if you like, and also young people in high school or just leaving high school where they're lost as to where should they head in their lives. So that's the career piece. I also help leaders and leadership can be a very lonely place and very challenging role. So help leaders so that's you'd call it executive coaching, I suppose. So leadership, and they're also in teams helping teams to to gel better, and really unlock the potential of the of the team. So they're the three areas that the business focuses on. Yeah, that the career the career piece, I think is is a real passion. And mainly because of my own journey to start my career all over again, in the late 30s.

Ian Hawkins 5:06

Yeah, and the journey that we've been on ourself, not only is the easiest thing to show other people because we've lived it, but as a passion because we know those moments where we didn't have support, we didn't have guidance. And, and that's why I'm so appreciative in my journey for people like yourself, who popped up at just the right time to point me in the right direction of whatever I needed next. So I imagine from all of that, there's your own journey, but the leadership and team a lot of that would have come from what you've learned in corporate, but also from your sporting background.

Unknown Speaker 5:42

Yeah, we're the I've been very fortunate that sport and mainly cricket for a good, you know, 17 years when I was playing in the what they call Premier League now. It taught me so much about culture, and, you know, team and values and performance and preparation, all those sorts of things. And then we're in business. You know, as a, I was given opportunities at a&p at a young age to lead teams, and they were kind of running in parallel, and I was kind of thinking, what can I learn from from sport and apply it into business? And then what can I apply back? When I went back as a head coach of the Tigers Premier League club, after I resigned from my position in corporate in in 2010. So yeah, they've been real constants. And I've learned from both fields if you like, and that teamwork, definitely the sporting. Many people love sporting analogies, but it's been a great teacher for me, the sporting field.

Ian Hawkins 6:47

Yeah, awesome. And then if we talk more in depth around the inner zone, and how you help people find that was the fascination already there from a sporting background? Because you'd had a taste of it? Or did you then join that link after you found this concept of finding their business perspective? And then work your way back into how that made sense? Because you because of your sporting background?

Unknown Speaker 7:12

Well, do you want me to talk about the inner zone and how I discovered is that yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so I mean, I think with with sport, I spent a lot of time in in my cricketing journey, trying to prove myself and work really hard to stay in first grade and those those sorts of things. And, but there was one moment it was in 2004, where, you know, it had a really average season. In fact, you know, we were coming up to the semi final, it was a match at Waverly oval against Eastern suburbs. And I tried to get dropped. My form was that bad. I'm ringing, and we were due to have our first baby Josie, any moment. So I was kind of like using that as an excuse, you know, are, I think I'm going to have the baby and bringing my captain and he said, No, no, we want you to play my wife saying, it's not going to happen this weekend. Just play for an hour. Yeah, so I mean, that's an indication of where I was at. So from a psych point of view, so we arrive at the oval, we win the toss and bat and I'm an all round, I open the bowling but and I bet seven or eight. So I've got a job to do with the bat. But yeah, my form was was horrific. Leading up to that day. So we win the toss. I'm sitting in the grandstand with a cup of tea and my Sox thinking, I hope I don't have nothing to do with today. You know, I have the boys have an awesome day, but I'm not feeling great. Not playing well. Anyway, so 10 or 15 minutes go by, and there's a few runs, but it's pretty uneventful, and then there's a wicket and then the next batsman goes out another wicked, and I'm going okay, and then there's another wicked and so I'm shifting in my chair, because in three weeks time I'm in and then the next guy gets out. And so I dropped the cup of tea and I run to the dressing room to get damaged, looking for clothes and all that sort of stuff. And then I can hear another week it's gone. And one more week and I'm in and I just have enough time to get the helmet on and everything else and I hear the how's that? Yes. So I walk on the field from the darkness of the change room straight out on the field. And I'm looking I look up at the scoreboard and it says six for 14 games pretty much over and you know this strange sense of calm just came over me like it doesn't really it doesn't really matter. You know, all the great batsman have tried and so the pressures off me and yeah, so I was at the non striker's end and this very tall West Indian bowler was bowling and I was Seeing the board rise up to the keeper's gloves thinking, Oh, this is going to be very interesting. And I'll never forget the mid pitch discussion after the end of that over. And we had a young debutante at the other end, Timmy spark. He was from the country. And he's saying, you know, but I bet I was six or 47. This is this is tragic, what are we going to do? And I said, I don't know what divine inspiration was coming through, I said, well go look at the scoreboard because that doesn't matter. Right? We know, that's bad. So that's take that distraction out of it, you know, the balls moving around a bit. So let's try and get behind the ball. That's all we need to do. And the other thing might is Let's enjoy ourselves, you know, this is a semi final. And so that's what we did. And I didn't know it at the time. But by removing the distraction, focusing on a challenge, which was to get behind the bull, everything just went away. And the two of us were in this amazing, this zone. And you know, the matrix where you can see the bullet in slow motion, you know, it was like that it was just so weird. Anyway, we bought it for the next four or five hours, and we turned the whole game around. We ended up declaring later in the day. And we actually had the upper hand, and the next day, we won that game. And so for me, you know, I for years, I look back at that, and just was thinking, how can I be so average? And then have this moment of where my real potential came out? And, you know, it was a breakthrough moment. And I looked back on that and thought, Well, if that's my potential, where else in my life, am I not hitting my potential. And also discovered that this state that we were in is actually a thing called flow. But design is real. And so I looked at it and thought, Well, where else can I use it and down the track further, you know, I use it to change my career. And now it's fundamentally

keep talking. I'm just gonna take this dog out. So

welcome to aliens podcast, by the way. No, one of you really used that state. And that moment was such an amazing informer of things. And yeah, it was a great, great teacher. And, you know, helping people now when one of the key questions I do ask is what gets you in the zone? How can? What is your potential in those moments when you're in flow? Really reveal that? Welcome back, Mike, to your show.

Thanks, man. I appreciate it. I was just sharing before he came on, he's had an upset stomach, and he was looking or whatever he was going on, it was making me nervous. And I'm like, That's not where they live. We are live. Outside. Yeah, you wouldn't want to have smellivision. That's for sure. If he's outside, and there might be some noise, but at least gonna have to deal with that. Yeah, so So I got just goosebumps through that whole, that whole part of the story where you were talking about just the sense of calm, and and we'll come back to this, but I was drawn on. This is happening before, you've you found faith in Christianity later on down the track. But you said all you don't know, divine intervention, but it's like, it's those moments where we're connecting to something bigger than us that that come through us that flows through us that? Yeah, they're just magical. And the, the other part that I'd love to hear from you is, you basically detach from the outcome. Yes, you said, we're not going to worry about that. And it's amazing how often, particularly people in their career, or at whatever they're doing, they're so focused on the outcome, that they lose focus on what's most important. So how, I'd love to hear about yet the importance of that part of it when you're helping people find that.

Yeah, well, it's kind of ironic, isn't it, that we have goals, you know, we all encourage people to have goals and Bob, you know, the ash bodies of the world, they've got these coaches that help help them to detach from the outcome, too, and what it really is about is to be so present and focused on you know, what's actually going on in the moment and forgetting and releasing all the things that you can't control. I mean, ultimately, the scoreboard will look after itself, but the more you focus on the scoreboard, the more pressure and stress and you know comes on so I Um, and for, you know, we all want to perform in our careers, we all want to do well. And yet the irony is, okay, so you've actually got to detach from the outcome, and you've got to be, you know, you've got to focus in the moment and to relax, let everything else go. And to trust your instincts. And to be completely what would people would say authentic. And so it's quite ironic. But it really is about being so present focused on the conversation you're having, or the, whatever it is at work to get really deep. And the state of flow is your, you know, you, fundamentally, it's a psychological state where you feel your best, and perform your best. Okay, and so, and it's, it's all over the world, everyone can experience it. And, you know, I love asking these questions in coaching, and I'm working with some designers at the moment architects. And also I'll ask them questions, like, you know, when are you in flow? And there'll be like, I'm designing something, and I can see it, you know, and they're doing this with their finger. And, like, what can you see? And they're just like, are in the moment, I can actually, the design looks like it's 3d. Or people, you know, when I say, Well, how do you use your talent of in the StrengthsFinder, futuristic, for example? And they'll say, Oh, I suppose How do I do it? I, I actually can go into the future, I think, yeah, that's what I do. So people actually aren't connected with their greatest abilities. First of all, you've got to name them, you know, see what are those abilities, and then intentionally use them in an activity, so go into the future. Next, Next meeting you've got with your marketing team, you know, really create some space where you can go into the future, have that discussion. But remember, one thing that your team can't see what you see. Yeah, so you're gonna have to explain that to them. I know, this sounds freaky. But that's what the area of we're talking about detaching from the outcome, but really trusting and focusing on what you do well, and can contribute. In the moment. It doesn't matter if you're, you're a secretary, or a cleaner, or CEO or a sports person, it's the same, you know, really focusing on what you can bring.

Yeah, and from my experience, and this was true for me, too, is that the thing that we do well just come so effortlessly to us that we don't even see it as valuable. And we just assume everyone can do it. And when we realise exactly what you pointed out is like, no, the rest of your team aren't seeing that. It's a game changer, because that's when people start to see their own value. Right.

Totally so true. And yeah, it's so natural to us. It's I've heard it described as like the lens on your eyeball. You know, it's there. But you've been looking through it all the time. And you don't actually appreciate that. It's there. You think everyone else has got it? It's so effortless that you think are that's that's nothing? Just what do you know? Yeah. So whenever I whenever I see this, you know, I think okay, we're in the realm of talent here. Yeah. And, yeah, so So getting people to appreciate their talents, understand them and bring them to life is you know, that's, that's my purpose. That's, that's what I love to do.

Beautiful. Yeah, I feel that. So that was a big life changing moment, having that moment in sport, but what was the moment that changed everything for your entire life?

Wow. Well, I think you know, there's that journey as a I had a great childhood, I had a great childhood, happy family. Great opportunities mom and dad were teachers gave us gave us some opportunities for private schooling and you know, that was fantastic. And, you know, leaving leaving high school, you know, embarrassing moment was was mum filling out my uni application form because I threw a tantrum and said, Well, how do you work out what you want to do with your life? Seriously, you know, what, how do you work that out? The UF books this big? I don't know what I'm gonna do. Hand it over demand. And sorry, I'll answer the question in a roundabout way if I can, but yeah, but so mom shows out the uni application form into property fall into property. Office leasing few years later, with a MP leading teams, etc. And seven years later on, I'm, you know, really in a in a very senior role, with a whole heap of pressure and desperate We are unhappy. Yeah. And outwardly successful reporting to boards and all, you know, all that big office but desperately unhappy and feeling stuck. Because the organisation is saying, What do you want to do with your life? Where are you going next? And I'm saying, Well, I have no idea. I didn't ask. I didn't answer that question. 17 years ago, when Mum filled out the form, and I still don't know GFC happens, sacking people and my satisfaction with, you know, career was, you know, really, really bad. I remember one, one morning sitting Monday morning sitting on the edge of the bed, just saying, I can't do this anymore, woken up by the garbage trucks on a Monday morning. And so like a big life change I was was knowing that, you know, gee, I feel shame. At the age of 37, I should have this sorted. You know, I've got two kids, you know, we're, we're playing a real game here. And, and I just felt really ashamed that I hadn't sorted that. So much so that I couldn't talk to my wife, I felt I couldn't talk to my wife about it. And so, you know, I thought, Ah, I'll take four weeks off, and that'll fix it. And I'll, I'll sort it all out in four weeks. And, you know, a real defining moment was when I hadn't sorted in four weeks, I'm going back to work and my daughter stops me at the door before I leave, she's only four years old. And she's saying, Why are you going back to work and I said, I have to go back and get money. And that's like, one of those movies where the just keeps going. And I thought, What a poor example, to my kids that is. And so I, at that moment, I said, I'm going to be open, I'm going to be honest, I'm going to tell my wife, how I'm feeling. I'm going to deal with this shame. And my wife's, you know, Tam, the greatest blessing she gave me was, you know, just quit, you know, who said, you have to be the provider who said, you have to be all this that you're putting on your shoulders, just quit and we'll work it out. And with that blessing I did. And that changed, changed my life. Big time, because we some time out and some distance i i got a coach mentor. I was working through, you know, what faith looks like for me as well. All these things, when you're really faced with a time of significant shift or change. Amazing things happen. And I remember writing a life purpose statement after doing inner work. And, and that was all about helping people it was about helping people to bring their talents to life so they can live out their potential. And that headed me in a new direction. And that was 2010. And everyday sense is, is following that purpose. And I, you know, I don't think I've worked ever since this is it's, you know, it's what I'm passionate about. I love it. I can't learn enough about it. You know, I'm just reading and listening to podcasts. And like, I'm just a sponge of how do you help people to realise their potential? So I think, look, there's there's, that's probably the life changing moment is that the gift that that Tim gave me to just quit, to deal with Shane, to really work out where am I going with life? What's most important, what is purpose for me, and then trying to help commute best and like helping others to find the same

magic? If it's okay, if we dig a bit deeper, more there, because that concept of shame is a really massive part of grief and particularly recovering from grief. And I'll ask you more about this as we as we go around, you know, how you're helping people and how you would be able to identify that and other people who have either, you know, made been made redundant or looking to change. So what was that like? Like, how long were you in that place where you're just like in that hole and and how did you deal with them?

I was in it for probably around 12 months, and it just felt like I was going deeper and deeper into this cabin that I couldn't always I couldn't come out of you know that, you know, I'm too far deep now. You know, to actually speak to my wife about it. I've got to sort this myself. competences and I think maybe that's a male thing. Yeah. What was it like? It was some not dreading going to work, dreading what's going to come at me this week? How many presentations do I have to give? How many things like I was leaving home at five and in the morning and coming home sort of 730 and then starting my work, because everything was meetings and dealing with, with some staff. So yeah, I'd say 1212 months, at least, in that place. And, but I think what helped, and hopefully this, this helps people out there that might be in the same spot is to stop. And whilst I took four weeks off, and that's not going to solve everything, at least I did stop to what's going on here, I need some distance, I need to think about this. I need to think about how I'm handling this. And, you know, you know, what I should have done is be open and honest, a lot earlier. And that's that vulnerability piece to go, you know, I don't have it all sorted. And it's okay. And it's one of the things I say to people, particularly career change. You know, when you're speaking to people after you've lost your job, you know, you won't have the answers. And you just say that, you just say, Look, I don't know, what's next for me. And that's okay. And after I quit, quit my job, I had a lot of shame around dropping kids to the school gate. People don't ask me the question, What am I doing? What how can we are off Richard and all those questions are coming. I even dreaded going to like, friends places and because they're always, what do you do? And Richard, you know, you, why do you quit? What's going on with you? You know, I'll be going. And so I just stopped that by saying, I don't know what I'm doing next. But I tell you one thing, I'm gonna learn what I'm good at what I'm passionate about, and what gives me purpose. That's what I'm going to do. And everything changed. People were like, really? That sounds awesome. Do you know you should think about so that vulnerability, the more open I was that I don't have the answers, the more answers were coming to me. Brilliant. And, you know, looking back, I should have been more vulnerable a lot earlier. Because let's face it, none of us have it all together.

Now. I've said that so many times interviewing people is like, you said it before, it's like that shame around, I should have it all sorted. Like, I've thought it, I've helped so many different people. And they said the same thing. And I might, none of us do. Like where we're always just unpacking whatever the next thing is that we need to peel away or, or trying to work out whatever the next. The next thing is for us. And that's okay. You touched on something that's really powerful. And, well, there's a few things. But realising that eventually, even it got darker and darker, like you knew you just had to speak up and things when Okay, now, a blessing for you that your wife was so understanding. And I think if you're, if you're a husband, and you're going through this, and you're feeling the real pressure around being the provider and the rock, it's okay actually, for you to be human occasionally, and admit that things aren't going 100% And then also the space that your wife created, be able to give that safe place for your husband and is massive. And so what a blessing for your life to be able to get to that point. It only came though, and you had the courage to be able to speak up.

Yes, that's right.

So what did you learn about yourself through all of that, given that you had to go through such a dark time to come out that other side?

Well, I it's, it's to be to be more open to the vulnerable to, you know, you talked about Maximizer. I've got Maximizer in my top five as well, from a Strengths point of view. And for people who don't know, the Maximizer talent is you always want to be better you and but but also you want things to be if you overuse it, you want perfection. And yeah, you know, you want the perfect performance. You want you want the perfect end. So you want to be you know, and I've done this, I want to be seen as perfect, you know, unconsciously I think that's true me and when what I learned about myself is I'm far from perfect. I'm imperfect, and the sooner that I can be You know, accept that and reveal to people just takes the pressure off me. But it deepens relationships. Just great things happen. So I learnt that but you know, I still have to remind myself, you know, you've, you're doing it again, you know, just be open about it and tell the truth. You haven't got it sorted. It's okay to say, I'm not sure what the answer is to that. I'm working through it. And, you know, so that's, that's a continual learning. I

love that. And I'm sure everyone listening at some point has got stuck in that perfectionism space. And and it's similar to what you said there about finding the zone, when you take the pressure off and stop trying to be perfect and just detach from that outcome. It's amazing. Yeah. And be honest about that. It's amazing what unfolds. So you mentioned the word. Truth, right? So from my experience with you, and just from listening to your talk now, is that that's a big part of your life. It's, it's what you deliver. It's also from an energy perspective, it comes out of you before you even speak. So. There's a there's a calm and easiness. And I felt that from the moment I connected with you back in that cafe in the city back in that day. So what does truth mean to you from that personal perspective? And then if you can elaborate further from that faith perspective, from your spiritual beliefs as well?

Yeah. I'll probably answer it with the last minute first that that, you know, coming to a position on faith was really driven by you know, we had our first child Josie, which, you know, the miracle of that just blows your mind doesn't I mean, you know, and so, when the eyes look at you, when I first started IV, you just, it's hard to describe, but there's, there's new levels of responsibility that come with that. And one of the things that that Tammy and I were were talking about is what happens when she asks, you know, is there a God, you know, why am I here? Some of those questions, and whilst I went to a Anglican Christian school, and not none of it really meant much to me. And so I was on a quest for truth. I wanted to know. Well, is it really true and so, Maxi, Rach, Rach, Maxwell and a maximum, Neil Neil Maxwell introduced us to a guy called Phil Wheeler, who was Christchurch minister, busy guy, amazing, amazing person. He became a mentor. What he did for termini was come to our house every week, and go through a course and we treated it like a little mini uni course. Yes, yes. Is this really true? Asking? I think I broke the record for the dumbest questions ever asked. And like, he's like, didn't you go to a Christian school? Yeah, I know. I know, I did. But you know, I need to ask this. And it was it was a search for full truth. And I became convinced that it is true. And, you know, so what is truth? Truth is, it's it's undeniable, the evidence is there. You know, it's proven beyond any shadow of a doubt. It's just raw truth. And in my own life, you're asking me what what truth is, and with vulnerability, truth is just to call it as it is, the honest, raw, the State of the Nation, kind of, it's this, I'm broken, or I'm this, to just tell it really raw, you know, to me, that that's the journey that that really became being a father and a parent really set us on and, you know, for me, Faith didn't come from a bolt of lightning. It was a journey and it's a continual journey to learning, deepening faith and a relationship with God that continues to this day, but you know, it's it's wasn't a bolt of lightning for me.

Okay, so not a bolt of lightning, but But there have been moments of like you mentioned the miracle of childbirth and having children creation, and they mean other moments, and I'll use it through this lens. That moment when you discussed that that game when you're playing cricket, where, you know, you're not sure what came over view over you, to me, like I see that and feel that as confirmation of the higher power. However you want to look at it, like whatever religious or spiritual or non by you look at it like it, there's something beyond us that that sends us messages. So what moments have you had, through your time? Maybe maybe looking back in retrospectively before you made that commitment to Christianity or, or since then that have really reaffirmed that truth? And then

yeah, yeah, I believe I believe what you're saying, because that moment on the sporting field, you look at the game of cricket. It's not not the end of the world, but because it's defined so much of my life. Yeah, I can see the fingerprints on it, you know, the moments my career was heading in, you know, was, I wasn't questioning my career, there was all the, you know, the good stuff. If it wasn't for GFC and hard times, I wouldn't have. And I believe that all that happened for a reason, you know, you know, and since then, you know, what do I do, from, you know, writing a purpose statement to be guided almost daily, to, you know, meeting different people. The business itself, there are things that are happening in the business, just when I need them to happen, you know, running your own business, there's no certainty of cash flow, and things are getting tired. And, you know, what am I going to do next? And then a door opens? And ah, okay. You know, I shouldn't have questioned. You know, I shouldn't have question that there's so many moments I don't, I couldn't tell you. There's just so many, it's a relationship, and it's ongoing. But yeah, I can see the signs, I can see why certain things happened, you know, that I'm here for a reason I'm doing, I feel I am on purpose, helping people back there. I wasn't, and therefore, I had to have a mini crisis to move me to somewhere that, you know, really where God wanted me to be. That's what,

yeah, it's a great point. And I wonder how many people have their current moment of crisis and see it as such a negative and you can feel like it, it's just remembering that and like, for me, every time there's a, something that presents itself, that's a challenge, or when things slow down, or you feel like going backwards, it's always just remembering what's going to pass. And on the other side of this will be something, something better as long as you keep moving forward. And I think knowing what you know, now, that makes it so much easier to navigate. Right?

Yeah. And redundancy is a great one. Because, you know, I literally have been in a room where they've just been given the news, and then they come in and see me and there's tears. And there's, and I do, I do say that on the other side of this, you know, just just hear some of these things, I'm going to be with you, I'm going to be walking you through this journey. And there is something on the other side of it, we don't know what it is. But it's going to be it's going to be important, and it's going to be good. And you know, that it's a magical time. And, and I love being there with people are actually the emotion of it, is strangely. I mean, privileged, I feel privileged to be there. But I'm excited to be there. And the fact that there's a lot of emotion is like, yeah, I'm really loving being with this person at the moment, which is kind of strange, but yeah, special.

Well, you know, what's coming for them, I get that as well. And it's like, even through those moments, and I'm pretty sure we talked about this before, you may even set it to be that how many people say, after their redundancy, and they are able to progress to something new, they realise it was actually the best thing that ever happened to them. And every single person I've spoken to sense them in the time, maybe not. And I've just reminded them of your words. And it's been my experience, too is like, just get through this, get through this. And at some point that's that's you'll see that that to be true as well. Yeah. So my question for you is something that is also something that's come up for people around redundancy. Even for me I took a voluntary redundancy and it still came up was that sense of rejection? That well they don't need me anymore. And even for me, even I was choosing to go there was still part of me like they kind of left me leave pretty easily. So So is that something you experienced when you relieving more so what like, what's, how do you guide people through that? When, when that's something that I imagine comes up for a lot of them as well?

Was it some? I mean, I think that your your point around grief is any significant change has that doesn't mean it has the shock, then, you know, and all the different stages, and I think part of that questioning is well, you know, wasn't I good? You know, why would they let me go? You know, what about me kind of thing? And, yes, to two, I mean, my own, I was just excited about the quest forward. I was just, you know, this is exciting. I don't know what I'm going to discover. I was really driven by that. And, yeah, I mean, someone said to me, when you finish up, finish, well, you know, leave actually physically leave the building with your head held high, knowing that you've contributed everything you could, and be happy with that. And don't look back. And you know, that I remember, I remember doing that and going, Yeah, I feel good about what I've given. And so, you know, helping people who are experiencing the same, you know, there is the anger, the frustration, the doubt, all those sorts of things. And how do I help them i, we talk it through, we write we write it through, you know, I want them to journal. And if you're angry with any person, write a letter to them. Don't send it, just write it. And you know, get what are these out. And if you are feeling that, you know, that they let you go pretty well, let's unpack that. Don't Don't store that in your unconscious and just leave it for another time because it will come back. You don't want to stay stuck. You know, some people you meet 20 years after they've gone from PHP or whatever, they're still talking about it this stuck. And we don't want that. So we want to get it out. And if you are having thoughts around, you know, rejection, let's talk about it. Let's get it out. What is that for you?

Yeah, yeah, that's great. Yeah, the power of journaling, we get that truth down on paper, it gets out of our head. And we can stop thinking about all the possible scenarios that we invent in our head, we just make it truth. And the other part that I like to add to that is some some years back, which is then burn that bit of paper. Not so because you don't want anyone to read it, but more as a ceremonial release. So that you're you're actually letting it go completely. You said that you mentioned the GFC. And I'm sure many people that was a time of great change. It was it was one of those for me? Absolutely. It was one of those catalysts for change moments. The last two years, I imagine the amount of people who have gone through very similar experience, possibly more than what happened in around 2008 2007 2008. What advice would you give them? If that's exactly what's going on? For them? They're facing a career change direction, maybe they've had their whole sort of plans for the future ripped away from them? How would you help them to navigate the first part of it, dealing with the first part, which is that the shock and all those things you mentioned the grief of it? And then how do you help them to go? Okay, well, how do we get clarity here to move forward?

So, yes, the last two years have I mean, of course, I've heard it called a lot, the great resignation. I call it a great reflection, you know, people are they've been, they've had to reflect on where they're at, where they've been, where am I going? And the positive of that, and I, again, you know, COVID has been horrific for so many people. And so I'm not I don't want to minimise that. The positive of it is it's it's caused people don't stop. And you know, people stop it. Whether it be redundancy, or a relationship breakdown, or a health scare, or a death of a close one, they're the key moments that make people stop. And, you know, hopefully, people haven't suffered, you know, the loss of loved ones as a result of COVID, but it's, it's forced everyone to stop and spend time at home and to work in different ways. So, the positive of that is that people are thinking about it. And my you know, my journey was 17 years and I hadn't in a career not hardly thought about it, you know, and it's a pattern I see with with people I coach, they just so what do you enjoy Whatever your what have you enjoyed about the last 20 years as an accountant, and you get silence, and I don't know, they just don't stop, people are so busy. So I think that the positive of the COVID period is people are thinking about it. So I just really encourage people to, okay, we'll, you know, do unpack that, but But start go through a process of inner work yourself. You know, some of the things we've been talking about work out what you are naturally gifted in, work out what you are interested most in? What do you love to do? What are the topics? What are you passionate about, and what what really matters to you is the third thing. So those are the three things and I'd encourage people to really reflect do some inner work. Because there is no growth without that inner work. You know, if you think you can change career without stopping and doing some inner work, I've got bad news for you, it's just not gonna happen. And through being blessed to coach, you know, I don't know, it's well over 1000 people through career change, the majority of people will try to solve that by looking on seek for the next job. And that's just not the way to do it. It's kind of like, people needle in a haystack needle in a haystack, people trying to get rich through lotto. You know, good luck, if it happens. There's another way and the other, I call that outside in you're trying to squeeze and fit yourself into a job that is online. Okay, and 5% of it might be you. But there's another way and that's inside out that starts with you really doing the inner work on your uniqueness? What is uniquely you? Are you naturally talented in? What are you really interested in? What motivates you and start there? And then write what is purpose for you? You know, what, write a purpose statement, whatever, what do you really want to contribute to the world, what's the impact you want to have, and then look at careers that match you. That's the Inside Out approach. You are the designer of your career, not your organisation. You are the designer. And so it's it's a, it's a contact sport. Unfortunately, it takes some some nudging and some challenges and some questions that aren't easy. But that's what I would encourage people to do.

Love that, just stop. Remember what he gives her do the inner work, attached to purpose. And the word that came to mind for me was, well, all of those things are helping you just to realise your value. And then when you go into an interview, you're not having to embellish or, as you said, try and squeeze into the 5%, you can just go in there selling everything that you do well. And if that's enough for what they want, then awesome. They'll find a way to fit you in. And if it's not, it's not the right place for you anyway.

Absolutely. Yeah, don't sell yourself, be yourself. And the quicker you can be yourself and say, Can I just tell you who I am, I'm this type of person, this is what I value. And you and you talk to them like that. And very quickly, they'll say we're exactly like that. Or they'll say actually, I don't think this is going to be the right place for you. And you go thanks very much. Really appreciate the honesty that took three minutes 30 onto something, something else and don't sell yourself. I mean, the more we try to sell ourselves and squeezed into a role you know, it's it just doesn't end well. Yeah.

100% Now, in he mentioned before, and you know, the tough couple of years and and it has been now for you you have lost people close to you. And you did say it was okay to speak about this. So how have you dealt with that losing people important to you in the last little while. And what again, through that lens of other people are going to be listening who have been through something similar and whether it's your faith, everything you've learned or just what you've managed to to bring together in the moment what's really helped you get through that?

Yeah, so Jen 1720 20 My brother passed away at 38 have a heart attack was just complete shock to my family and I little over 12 months after that my dad passed away from combination of leukaemia, which had been fighting bravely for a few years, and pneumonia. And so the combination of that was was too much for him. So yeah, I look, it's been, it's been incredibly hard, is what it has been. And it's something that is a process that continues to, to be there a continue continuing process that I'm working through, you know, quite often I would walk the dogs speak to my brother Mark, and then my dad or either or, and I quite often go for a walk and put my earbuds in. And I'll go, I can't, I can't call them. So, you know, there's that. But look for me, you miss them terribly you get through the shock. What, you know, my faith is has taught me is that this is not the end. And that's what I believe. Yeah. And, you know, they were both of faith as well, and so on. On betting Jesus is right, and then I'm going to see them again. So that is what I cling to. And I know that's not for everyone. But, you know, for me, you know, people going through the, that process, you know, I just, you know, I've been to funerals where people you know, they don't have that faith and it's an it's an it's hard, it's really hard. So that's what I'm clinging to. But I think what what helps as well and my sister's just come back from the She's literally been in isolation in London for two years in a unit. And you know, the amount of hugs that she's, she's now grieving, she just started grieving really, when she arrived in Australia a couple of weeks ago, and the homes, the hugs, and the stories and the love and all of that, that we had the benefit of really accelerates us down down that grief process. And my sister Lisa is is feeling that now and you can feel that she's she's down that process as well. It's an ongoing process, isn't it? You know, when something that you continually want to honour him dad passed away on the 24th. So last Sunday was was an opportunity to, to honour him in and it's kind of like, you know, with these anniversaries, I think, you know, should our few shouldn't be in the corner crying should I be what should I be feeling right now? The option I took is to take my sister Lisa, to our church where we grew up, where we were confirmed where dad loved it, it was high church. We went there. Then we went to where we grew up in Rothermere walk the streets, it was such a beautiful honouring, and felt that that was a proactive way of, you know, recognising dad, and just got so much out of that it was really special. So that's the question, but

absolutely. And to me that there is so much comfort in in all of those things. And I know, for me and my siblings going back to my, my grandma and grandfather's house where my dad grew up. So much comfort and we often you know, we were in that part of town, we'll always drive through that street just do yeah, there's something about just returning to those joyful memories that the environment that just takes us back there. And even if we can't do it physically, we can certainly do it from a from a mental and emotional perspective. So yeah, I love that and, and what a blessing that you can be there for your sister now and help her through what I can't imagine how tough that must be given that all that unfolded while she couldn't be here.

Yeah, it's been incredibly hard for lease. But you know, I don't know if this happened for you, and when you went back to your job, where you grew up, but for us, I was talking to Lisa about this. When you look back on your youth, you know, we all have issues when we're young, you know, like either bullying or moments that and you can really blow them up like they're really that big. And I remember walking down the street with Lisa and just going how tiny is everything? You know, like I thought our street I thought our street was like that. And I came off my bike and had this accident on my bike and I thought that it was because the road was like that the road is a gentle undulations. Seriously. Our house you know is so tiny and it hasn't changed and you go it just minimises things that you can kind of in your past you can build up as you know, that's something that's and you go it's Not really. It's not that big and. And so that's where the what happened for us. I don't know if that happened for you.

But absolutely. And I was drawn to a like, so my mom still lives in, in the house where I grew up, which is awesome. But I went walking with her going back a few months, I mean, went through the bush where he used to get up to all sorts of shenanigans and then pass my my besties made both make grown ups place. And I messaged him straight after I'm like, that's it's barely changed. And I'm like, it's so small. And exactly, he said, The steep hills. And, you know, we used to climb through joint drain pipes and all sorts of crazy things that we shouldn't have been doing. But yeah, like it's the all of the negative melt away, because you just remember the positive and it's something we can Yeah, like you said, you can get caught in your head about all the bad things. There's nothing like taking that trip down memory lane to bring it back to what was most important. It's really

powerful. And, you know, the mind, I think it the mind can do amazing things for good and amazing things for bad, you know that it can build up? Well, that happened in your past and you can't move forward. You know, that's my experience anyway, going back there really minimised a whole heap of things for me and but maximised the honouring of that, which was

awesome. Another question just about your faith. So for me now, with business, it's not just my creation, it's a co creation with God. Right? So So what am I mean by that for, for maybe those who don't have that sort of faith, it's like, whether you want to call it your intuition, like the universe, higher power source, however you like to put it, it's connecting to something bigger than you. And for me, I'll literally go into meditation or prayer, if you're, if you like to word it that way. And I will ask specifically, like for this particular part of the business, what, what is required right now? And if you said, as you said, stop, and then just be quiet long enough, you'll receive answers. Is that something that you have as part of your business? Is that just happened more organically? Or is it something you do intentionally?

I do do it intentionally. So. My morning, and this, this is something that I really challenge people on is how they invest in their morning, my morning, we're a family of swimmers. So 4am wake ups is not uncommon. And whilst that was, you know, people all do that, like what have you. But I've actually learned to love it. And between that that hour before, it's kind of that two hour period before sunrise. And, you know, it's, even if it's three, and it's rare that I'm up at three, but someone described it to me as as talking to God, it can be sometimes a real congested highway, because my mind is stressed and worried about certain things, and it's just not getting through. In those hours, there is there is a massive highway and no one's on it. And the clarity of discussion of insight and ideas. And I'll be quite often I've this is probably a better answer your question you asked earlier, what what do you get, I will get up and I'll write things and ideas, insights, problems to solve like solutions to problems, or write it and sometimes I'll go back to bed, and I'll wake up and just go What on earth is that, because I could not come up with that, you know. So ideas, things that are clear meditation in the morning, I'm not a great meditator. I do get distracted a lot. But I've got a whiteboard, you probably sit there, there's a whiteboard, I have a whiteboard down here in in the bunker, where where I work most of the time, and I'm down here and I'm I will meditate. I've got a meditation app that I use and and just think about ideas and how I can help the Ian Hawkins or you know, how I could you know, the programme, we're in a school that we're working with, an ideas come and I'm not that smart, some of the you know, I'm not that smart to come up with new ideas that I get. So I do believe it's insight intuition. And I really encourage people to, you know, to really take control of their morning and be intentional about it and start their day. Okay, here's what I want to do today. Here are the ideas I want to pursue. Here's the conversations I want to have with different people and be clear about my purpose. Whereas most people start their day, they'll log on the moment they log on, they've got 40 emails to respond to, it's everyone else's stuff coming at them. And the stress starts, you know, it's, it should be the other way around you, you know, if you claim your morning, and be intentional about it and clear about what's most important, then you're the one that's that's the you're serving, you know, and you're gonna have to respond, but it'll be in your time you respond to people in your time, but you've been intentional. And that's what it means to live on purpose. In my view.

Yeah, I love that. And that way, you're able to take self control, and you're not being driven by other people's day, but you you've been driven by your own self journey, which, to me so powerful. You mentioned something then, and that made me think this is this is a question like, the link between flow and, and a higher power. And so to me, is exactly like you described, I've written things like, you know, Facebook gives you the memories, and it will show something, and I'll look back and go, did I write that? Or is that something I shared from someone else? Because I don't know where that came from? Yeah, I get those run, like, oh, just I'll just start writing what comes out. But that's, that's that that inner part of us that is just so magic? So what's two part question? Where do you find your flow? And? Yeah, like, Is that something you've thought about that that God and flow connection? Yes,

I have. I've not seen it written about him. But I totally believe it. Mainly, because so the science is a guy called Steven Kotler who mazing scientist who's really researching the neuroscience of flow, and what actually happens. And what was originally thought of when people are in flow, is that they're deeply focused, everything else is shut out, time is changing, they're performing their best, they're feeling the best, all these things are happening. So the brain must be completely lit up, like a Christmas tree, and really, you know, on Maximum Overdrive, so you know, the steam coming out of it and everything like that, it's the reverse, their majority of the parts of the brain are shutting down. And the parts of the brain, it's, it's called transient hypofrontality, if people want to look it up, but the main parts of, you know, where the part of the brain where, you know, time exists,

you know, like, I'm running late self consciousness self-consciousness, you know, how do I look in this shirt? What am I going to say, to make a mistake, all of those parts, the inner critic shut down. And so what you're left with is just your natural abilities, and focus in the moment, to be instinctive in what you're doing. To me, that is God saying, you know, you're in this state for a reason, I'm trying to tell you something. And you're at your best doing this, this is what I want you to do. This is the purpose that I've made for you. And, you know, and I asked people about their greatest talents, and I'll go, who taught you how to do that? And they'll go, no. So who gave it to you? How do you have it? Like, I don't know, I don't know what you're talking about. It's and so there's something that you know, I, I haven't seen anyone written about it written anything about it. But to me flow points to your purpose. That's how to know your purpose,

maybe should read a bit more of my stuff. And I'm drinking

coffee out right

now with Steve Kotler, because the rise of Superman for me was just such a transformational book. But I don't know if you've read stealing fire, where he talks about over history, humans fascination with the altered states. And to me altered states is just connecting you to God, right? Like, and so it's talking about early days, it was through dance and sound so like, you know, sticks or whatever musical instruments and then and then our quest for these altered states that have that have gone on from eating some berry that might give us that to, to everything that we know now know around, people trying to detach. There's there's, to me, they're just it's it's a they're all tools to help you find more of that connection.

Yeah, looking great. I think people are seeking it in different ways that aren't helpful. And that's the early morning is that you're just out asleep. So your, your your brain is in this semi trance kind of state. And that's why. And then so to answer your question about what gets me in flow, thinking ideating reading moment I read or listen to podcasts ideas come and I don't know how they come, but it'll be an input and then it'll be an idea. And that's why I've got whiteboards. So for me flow is generating ideas, capturing those ideas and trying to help people with them. That's that's really what flow is for me.

Yeah, beautiful beat pitcher. It strikes me that in this sort of environment, that it's a real natural flow for you, too. So is that is that? Does that help you with your work? Like, are you presenting to a large group and you really tap into that state of flow there as well?

When I'm presenting? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, it presentations, I find almost an A, my experience was if I'm presenting on something I'm not passionate about, I struggle. And, you know, with, in my previous role, I was not a good presenter. In fact, I was incredibly nervous, I would almost choke sometimes. But but I believe it's because I wasn't in an area that I was deeply passionate about, when people find their passion. There'll be moments that people will have stood up for something and spoken out, and they have just given something and everyone goes, well, you know, everyone has that in them. It's just that we've got to present or share our ideas or in an area of passion. And I think that's actually key. So yeah, if I'm presenting, I will tap into passion, I will tap into purpose, why am I doing it? There could be one person in the crowd that this could change their life. And that's the sort of things that that I think of when I'm when I'm talking so

brilliant. If you've got time, I'd like to ask one more question. Yeah, constant a bit over. Yeah. You help people find what's next for them, when they come to that pivotal moment in their life. You're already doing the work that you're doing. So you mentioned it's career and leadership and team. What's next for you?

So what's next for me is, is the programme that we've we've had in schools for a few years. That's, that's what I'm most passionate about. So helping kids in school. So what it is for people is starting a new seven, helping kids actually through through their high school journey, understand, real and really connecting with who they are. We call it the sim programme, or my design programme, but the sim is the model we use. So what you know, every student is unique, like a similar mobile phone. So what are your strengths? What are your interests? What are your motivation, helping kids to understand that we believe can change lives, you know, the confidence that kids have the direction, the clarity, we want every single student to leave high school, clear on who they are, and the direction that they want their life to head. And so, you know, that's, that's what's next is getting this programme in schools, as many schools across Australia and hopefully beyond. Because we don't want the pattern that we see to continue in that pattern can look like, you know, students thinking, I'm gonna go and do law or medicine or this, but they go to uni, they don't like it, they drop out, and they think that they're no good as a result. And that's just not true. So, we're going to help kids to understand how to be the designers of their future and what the Inside Out approach looks like, starts with you identifying what purposes and then having multiple careers, you know, entrepreneurial side, hustles, whatever, you name it in the direction of your purpose. And that that increases the ability for people to navigate confidently and competently for the future. So that's, that's what's next for me. So yeah, we were really keen on that. And I've got a couple of amazing talented people I'm working with to really get that into schools on a bigger scale. So that's what's next.

That really excites me and I think back to my journey, um, I would really love that at that age. I was like that to know what I want to be when I grow up and and that was still having that conversation. You know, up until late 30s? Like, I don't know, I used to joke with people, I'll let you know, once I know, sort of my thoughts are drawn to you know, we talked before about the pandemic fan, if anyone's at that point, and they're thinking, Well, it's time for change, or they've started the change. Like, you know, we're both an example of going through that moment, back in the GFC. That, yeah, you don't know all the answers. But if you make a commitment that you want things to be different, then you can absolutely find your way. And to me, you're such an inspiration or, and proof of that being possible. So if anyone needs any more motivation, or inspiration or guidance on that, then yeah, highly recommend speaking to riches. It was certainly a big moment for me. I'd also just want to include I love that that's so this simplicity of that acronym sim. Strength, interests, motivation and how HCM is unique. Man, that's beautiful, and connecting children to purpose from young age. That's yeah, I can see that being a real game changer in the education, area of education for for teens, mate. So congratulations on that. And where can people find you if they want to find out more about what it is that you do? They look there at that point, we're looking for a change of direction?

Yeah, it is n dot Comdata. You they can, my details are there. So in a zone, you can see it on the screen. That's the spelling dot Comdata. You. So yeah, it's loved to love to help people and right back at you as well in in terms of what you're dealing with people made and, you know, doing a podcast is is come across my mind as well. But it takes serious work and your commitment to doing it. Not only you know, getting guests on, but doing what you do, you know, five times a week, I think you're doing it's amazing, so well on to you, and you're putting so much into it and people benefit. So thanks to you,

I appreciate that. It's probably not as worth much work as it seems maybe conversational. But I'll give you a few tips. Because you've already mentioned the idea there, you're already in the idea. That's where I would literally got two pages of ideas to talk about. And so I won't run out of things to talk about, but I appreciate them. I really do. And I thank you for your time. I know you're a busy man, and you're sharing your wisdom. Thank you again.

It's been awesome, great talking to you. And thanks for the opportunity. Welcome.

I hope you enjoyed this episode of The Grief Code podcast. Thank you so much for listening. Please share it with a friend or family member that you know would benefit from hearing it too. If you are truly ready to heal your unresolved or unknown grief. Let's chat. Email me at info at Ian Hawkins coaching.com You can also stay connected with me by joining the Grief Code community at Ian Hawkins coaching.com forward slash The Grief Code and remember, so that I can help even more people to heal. Please subscribe and leave a review on your favourite podcast platform