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Jean Nunnally joins us today to talk about her path to unschooling her two children. Although not originally in her life’s plan to unschool, Jean decided to look into unschooling as a young mother and never went back. You’ll learn Jean’s story from a traditional schooling background to adapting to her own children’s learning needs. She’s written “Success Without School: Unschooling My Children From Birth to College”, a book that speaks to all whether you unschool or not.
EPISODE TAKEAWAYS (what you’ll learn):
About The Guest:
Jean Nunnally is a veteran unschooling mother of two children from their birth until college. Traditionally educated in public school in Blount County, she completed a degree in finance at the University of Tennessee before starting a 14-year career with Shell Oil in Houston, Texas. She left the business world after becoming a mom and was subsequently accredited as a La Leche League leader and eventually became a board-certified lactation consultant. Her unusual story detailing her unschooling journey--what she learned from the experience and the broader implications of this philosophy of choice and self-determination--shows that self-directed learning is not only a possible alternative to conventional school, but highly successful and a critical concept for the future of education to boot.
Find Jean Nunnally here:
About the Host:
Maureen Spielman is the Founder of Mystical Sisterhood, a podcast dedicated to bringing more joy, healing and expansion to the world. She is a seasoned life coach who supports individuals through one-on-one coaching, groups and workshops.
Connect with Maureen:
● Check out her Instagram: @maureeenspielman
● Learn more about her work at www.maureenspielman.com
● Want to join our Mystical Sisterhood Membership community? Find out more here: https://www.maureenspielman.com/mysticalsisterhood
● Email Maureen at hello@maureenspielman.com to inquire about coaching, podcasting & speaking engagements
● Want to view Mystical Sisterhood episodes? Visit the Mystical Sisterhood YouTube Channel here: Magical Sisterhood Youtube
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Welcome back to mystical sisterhood. This is
Maureen Spielman:Maureen Spielman and I sit down today with Jean Natalie to talk
Maureen Spielman:about her work her life and her book success without school,
Maureen Spielman:unschooling, my children from birth to college. There is a lot
Maureen Spielman:in this episode, everything from veering off a traditional
Maureen Spielman:upbringing, a traditional path, to do something that was
Maureen Spielman:courageous and out of the box, transforming people pleasing
Maureen Spielman:behaviors to standing up for what feels right to you,
Maureen Spielman:following your intuition and leaning into our children's
Maureen Spielman:needs, whether we choose to go down a path of unschooling, or
Maureen Spielman:they're in traditional school. We kind of cover all topics
Maureen Spielman:today, and I'm grateful for Jean for being here. Enjoy the
Maureen Spielman:episode, and let's get to it. Hey there, welcome to mystical
Maureen Spielman:sisterhood. This is your host, Maureen Spielman. I started the
Maureen Spielman:show to highlight the intuitives, healers and other
Maureen Spielman:courageous women that I've met along my journey and continue to
Maureen Spielman:meet. Through amazing interviews, I seek to ask
Maureen Spielman:insightful questions to uncover ways in which you the listener
Maureen Spielman:can apply the wisdom and knowledge to your own life. I
Maureen Spielman:believe that we're all in this together. So sharing healing and
Maureen Spielman:joy, and bringing community together is both my passion and
Maureen Spielman:purpose. If you'd like to learn more about the mystical
Maureen Spielman:sisterhood community I'm building, please visit www
Maureen Spielman:mystical sisterhood.com See you in the episode. Hey, welcome
Maureen Spielman:back to mystical sisterhood. This is Maureen and I'm here
Maureen Spielman:with Jean Nunnally. I am really really excited today Jean to be
Maureen Spielman:with you. We have a mutual friend Zenith who introduced us
Maureen Spielman:and in Zenith had this really bright light bulb come come to
Maureen Spielman:her and say like, Oh, I think these two would be good
Maureen Spielman:together. And so welcome to our space, we're gonna talk about a
Maureen Spielman:lot of things. The topic, I always say like the topic is
Maureen Spielman:this, and then we'll uncover what else is meant to come up.
Maureen Spielman:But you are the author of a book called success without school,
Maureen Spielman:and really an expert it within yourself and in your life and
Maureen Spielman:unschooling, but I just want to start there and say, you know,
Maureen Spielman:there is so much to share today, but a big hearty welcome to you.
Jean Nunnally:Thank you so much. And thank you for having
Jean Nunnally:me. I mean, I'm truly truly honored to be a part of this
Jean Nunnally:podcast, because I it's, it's amazing for me,
Maureen Spielman:thank you, I'm so happy. You know, there's,
Maureen Spielman:there's so many places we could start. And when I was sort of
Maureen Spielman:compiling notes, and reading through the book success without
Maureen Spielman:school, just hold it up for those who are going to be
Maureen Spielman:watching on YouTube, so they can see it. And we'll provide links
Maureen Spielman:later, but just this idea that, from what I can glean, you had a
Maureen Spielman:pretty traditional upbringing, and sort of the way you were
Maureen Spielman:brought up, and, you know, going through college and getting a
Maureen Spielman:job after college, and it was pretty, you know, what I'd say
Maureen Spielman:is traditional. And then I, for me, when I think of we're going
Maureen Spielman:to look at a little bit the differences between homeschool
Maureen Spielman:and unschooling, but wow, like, to me, it's such this courageous
Maureen Spielman:embrace of a path for your children to take. And so we'll
Maureen Spielman:maybe we'll start at, you know, tell us a little bit about your
Maureen Spielman:upbringing and your home life and maybe even your school life
Maureen Spielman:as a youngster.
Unknown:Right. So yeah, you're absolutely spot on. It was a
Unknown:very traditional, conventional sort of upbringing. Certainly,
Unknown:my, my, I had a wonderful home life very stable. Mom, dad, two
Unknown:older brothers, and very traditional schooling, other
Unknown:than I'd started out at a very small, tiny little rural county
Unknown:school. And so my schools were fairly small, but again, very
Unknown:traditional. I was, you know, the a student, I was the people
Unknown:pleaser, the teacher pleaser, the teacher's pet kind of thing.
Unknown:And, really, I always thought of my education as being really
Unknown:good in school being really good. And it kind of wasn't
Unknown:until I was unschooling my own kids that I started to see that
Unknown:there was a there was a bit of a damage done to me by school. And
Unknown:I didn't like I said, it took me a long time to realize that for
Unknown:a long time, I would say yes, I had a great school situation,
Unknown:but now I'm doing something different. And now I sort of
Unknown:realized that a lot of that school This structure was was
Unknown:creating the people pleaser that I grew into. And it's something
Unknown:that I'm still trying to unwind today. And I'm still stuck with
Unknown:being very much a people pleaser. And I know school is
Unknown:not the only influence on that. But it was a lot of an influence
Unknown:to try to be, you know, you're set up to be only good if you do
Unknown:these things. You know, that's what makes you worthy is if you
Unknown:make these grades, if you do these things, and you're not,
Unknown:you're not ever given the message that you're worthy, just
Unknown:because of who you know, just because
Maureen Spielman:yeah, yeah. So that's interesting, because
Maureen Spielman:you're saying you had a good experience in school, you didn't
Maureen Spielman:feel particularly affected by it in many ways. And it led you to
Maureen Spielman:a big university, and a big job after that. And so that really
Maureen Spielman:wasn't the reason your that you knew in the moment, the reason
Maureen Spielman:why you chose to go down the path of unschooling that
Maureen Spielman:happened for you afterwards?
Unknown:Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I didn't have
Unknown:terrible situation in school. Like I said, I was a good test
Unknown:taker, so I make good grades that came in things came very
Unknown:easily to me. Yeah, it was, it was after I actually had kids
Unknown:and started to meet people who were doing things a little bit
Unknown:differently and seeing how their kids were, well, a lot of it was
Unknown:at the beginning, I you know, people were talking about
Unknown:getting your kids into preschool at really what I felt like, was
Unknown:a very, very young age. And I motherhood was such an amazing
Unknown:time. For me, it was such an amazing transformation. And I'm
Unknown:with my, you know, my daughter, who's the older and just loving
Unknown:being a mom, and suddenly I'm getting these messages that
Unknown:well, you need to start looking for a preschool and I, I
Unknown:thought, well, I don't want to, I'm not ready to give her up,
Unknown:you know, I'm not ready to hand her over to some stranger for
Unknown:the better hours of the day. And that kind of threw me into a
Unknown:little bit of a panic. And that's when someone handed me a
Unknown:book about that was a compilation of different
Unknown:homeschooling methods or philosophies. And I read this
Unknown:one, you know, this one article by John Holt, who kind of became
Unknown:the my guru. And it just totally resonated with me, and it made
Unknown:me realize it just made me realize that's what I wanted for
Unknown:my kids. I wanted my kids to, you know, I just seemed, it just
Unknown:seemed like the right thing. I don't know, I'm just guessing
Unknown:the universe was speaking to me in that way. But yeah, it was
Unknown:just very, very powerful. John Holt's the one that coined the
Unknown:term unschooling. So, and he's kind of he was a champion of
Unknown:that methodology, really a very amazing guy.
Maureen Spielman:That's amazing. There's a lot of a lot
Maureen Spielman:right there. You know, I want I want to talk about unschooling
Maureen Spielman:in a minute. But the first time I met you, when we had the
Maureen Spielman:conversation, it was striking to me that, to me listening to your
Maureen Spielman:story, you were leaning into your intuition from a really
Maureen Spielman:young age, let's just say or a young place in your life. And we
Maureen Spielman:don't always know that intuition is the thing that's guiding us.
Maureen Spielman:And it's our it's, it's unique to us, because the path that you
Maureen Spielman:have walked is unique to you. And so, but the story was around
Maureen Spielman:when you were a very young mom, and I believe breastfeeding, but
Maureen Spielman:you were around the other Lecce mothers and you saw like a way
Maureen Spielman:of being with their children. That was super like you're
Maureen Spielman:saying, when someone handed you the book, The John Holt book is
Maureen Spielman:like you saw something in it that spoke to you that made
Maureen Spielman:sense to you? And do you think of that as intuition? Or do you
Maureen Spielman:now know that it may have been or how did you follow because a
Maureen Spielman:lot of times, we see things we like, but then our our, like
Maureen Spielman:cultured mind is the one that says, but that's not possible.
Maureen Spielman:That's not That's not possible. It's not reasonable. It's it's
Maureen Spielman:kind of ridiculous, whatever
Unknown:it is. Yeah, no, I think it is. I think it was
Unknown:intuition. I don't know that. I would have called it that at the
Unknown:time or noticed it, but maybe I just always had I don't know,
Unknown:because I always grew up thinking that there were
Unknown:possibilities that there wasn't anything that was impossible.
Unknown:And for some reason, I can't really tell you because I did
Unknown:grow up in a very conventional sort of family. I don't know the
Unknown:unconventional sort of appeals to me and things just when
Unknown:things resonate with me they're, they're strong than the idea is
Unknown:strong.
Maureen Spielman:So yeah, sure.
Unknown:I
Maureen Spielman:you had a couple examples in the book to
Maureen Spielman:the One, you had a story about when you were little, because
Maureen Spielman:what you're saying to me right now, I believe to be very true
Maureen Spielman:is how you said it was just attractive to be unconventional
Maureen Spielman:or. And I remember those parts of me that too, like when I was
Maureen Spielman:a young girl, there were things that maybe a parent would say,
Maureen Spielman:and I'd rise up a little bit indignantly and think like, oh,
Maureen Spielman:that's not my truth. And isn't that interesting? Because we do
Maureen Spielman:have these, the, the beauty of, you know, when we're born and in
Maureen Spielman:just our light, and all those things, and then we get kind of
Maureen Spielman:pulled away from it from school and from our family, and
Maureen Spielman:whatever happens to us in life, but I can remember those times
Maureen Spielman:as a kid, of, of being like, gosh, dang it, that's not my
Maureen Spielman:truth. And so you I think you have a story about a project
Maureen Spielman:when you were a little girl, and just that it just didn't fit who
Maureen Spielman:you are at the time, it was just it was constraining you and
Maureen Spielman:keeping you in a box in a way. I thought that was important. I
Maureen Spielman:have,
Unknown:I think very strong, that like not specific
Unknown:instances, but many, many little instances of feeling dismissed
Unknown:as a child, by adults, well meaning, but adults that said,
Unknown:oh, there's no you can't understand these things that
Unknown:we're talking about. Or you shouldn't be in this
Unknown:conversation. This, you know, because you're a child. And in
Unknown:my, in my side, my brain, I was thinking, I, I have all the
Unknown:capacity to have this conversation. I don't understand
Unknown:why you can't see that in the. And so I think because they
Unknown:really remember that feeling of a very frustrating feeling. It's
Unknown:still a kind of a trigger for me, if somebody if I feel I'm
Unknown:being dismissed by somebody unfairly, I didn't want my kids
Unknown:to feel that it just felt so disrespectful. And so I think I
Unknown:always wanted to treat my children as though they were
Unknown:already they came into this world existing as whole beings.
Unknown:And as people that granted, they don't have the experience yet.
Unknown:So the difference in our lives is, you know, I would tell my
Unknown:kids, I'm not any smarter than you. Because I mean, how do you
Unknown:measure smartness? How do you measure IQ, I, the only thing I
Unknown:have is, I have years of experience on you. That's my,
Unknown:that's my only difference. And my experience is not necessarily
Unknown:going to be relevant for you. Because you have your own life
Unknown:to lead. You have your own path to go. So I can share my
Unknown:experience. And you can choose to listen to it or not, but it's
Unknown:your life, your life. You're living your life, not me. I'm,
Unknown:I'm here to help you to facilitate and guide you. But
Unknown:I'm not going to tell you that is above my paygrade to tell you
Unknown:what, what you should be doing based on what I think you know,
Unknown:so yeah, so a lot of it was just that memory of feeling what it
Unknown:felt like to be dismissed as a child that drove drove me. Yeah,
Maureen Spielman:that was operating inside of you. And I'm
Maureen Spielman:blown away. Because, you know, when we got together is a lot of
Maureen Spielman:what you speak about are the tenants of conscious parenting,
Maureen Spielman:you know, that I studied and Dr. Shefali is Institute they really
Maureen Spielman:are conscious parenting is seeing your child is that whole
Maureen Spielman:being is taking away that hierarchial type of structure
Maureen Spielman:that is like I know more than you therefore you should listen
Maureen Spielman:to me and do all of my roles. And just a willingness to let
Maureen Spielman:your child be your guide. Because what I'm hearing you say
Maureen Spielman:to is you didn't go into this with any master plan of I am
Maureen Spielman:here to teach them. It was more it sounds like it was more. I
Maureen Spielman:want to empower them to be internally driven by what is
Maureen Spielman:guiding them, right. Yeah,
Unknown:we can collaborate. We can work together. But yeah, I
Unknown:never wanted them to see me as, and that's why I really don't
Unknown:like the word teacher. Because it has this connotation in our
Unknown:culture of I must impart to you something that's important. It's
Unknown:one thing if I go to someone, like if I come to you and say,
Unknown:Maureen, you have this information, Will you teach me
Unknown:this? Then I've given you permission, okay. And I And I've
Unknown:asked, I've requested teaching, but for you to say gene, you
Unknown:must know you must learn what I have. And I say well, I don't
Unknown:necessarily want that. That to me is it's it's bullying kind
Unknown:of, you know, it's it's, it's an we you know, we downplay it but
Unknown:to me, a school situation is kind of a bullying situation
Unknown:where there's a Each year at the front of the room that's telling
Unknown:the kids what they need to do when they haven't necessarily
Unknown:wanted that.
Maureen Spielman:Yeah, so it's really an invitation to take a
Maureen Spielman:look at how conventional school is structured, which we know
Maureen Spielman:it's such a behemoth that it's, that will change. Right? Yeah.
Maureen Spielman:And I like I do like your messages, though, because I
Maureen Spielman:think that, you know, for whatever a family chooses for
Maureen Spielman:their kids, the elements that, you know, this is why I think
Maureen Spielman:it's, it's sometimes interesting, like your book is
Maureen Spielman:called success without school, unschooling, my children from
Maureen Spielman:birth to college. But this is, there's so much in this book
Maureen Spielman:that's valuable for everybody. So we sometimes we can't be
Maureen Spielman:fooled by what the title of a book is, yes, if that particular
Maureen Spielman:population wants to read this book, then this is for you. But
Maureen Spielman:I think there's so much more that's for everybody. And for
Maureen Spielman:me, like, looking at these ways that well, how does my child
Maureen Spielman:feel like if they're in conventional school? How are
Maureen Spielman:they feeling if this is, if it's presented in a certain way, or
Maureen Spielman:even as a teacher, or, you know, we can we can do things at home,
Maureen Spielman:like, oh, I as your parents, I consider your your teacher, your
Maureen Spielman:guide, you know, and just start to so I think that conversation
Maureen Spielman:is so valuable for anyone on either side of, of the choice, I
Maureen Spielman:guess, because I think that one thing I was thinking about when
Maureen Spielman:I was reading the book was like, how things can also I'm trying
Maureen Spielman:to jog my memory is just like sometimes how, Oh, I know what
Maureen Spielman:it was that there can be the rightness or wrongness put on
Maureen Spielman:things and that it's like, this choice is good. And this choice
Maureen Spielman:is not good kind of thing. But what I saw, and we can jump into
Maureen Spielman:the unschooling part of it is where I'm not, I'm, I'm a
Maureen Spielman:listener today to in that I don't know a lot about
Maureen Spielman:unschooling, and I'm, I'm fascinated by it. I, I feel like
Maureen Spielman:like my projections on to unschooling have always been
Maureen Spielman:like, wow, you know, those families are super brave,
Maureen Spielman:because I don't know if I could take that on yet. I love this
Maureen Spielman:concept of really learning driven in from internally,
Maureen Spielman:instead of the outside, you have to have these grades, you have
Maureen Spielman:to take these, ask anyone that, you know, I know locally. And
Maureen Spielman:just like standardized testing, I just never really vibed with
Maureen Spielman:it at all. And I think I don't think it's great. And when I
Maureen Spielman:would drop off my daughter for the LSAT and she would be just
Maureen Spielman:in complete tears and just to see those that fallout from it
Maureen Spielman:that really does does affect children deeply. And I don't
Maureen Spielman:know where I was going with that, but just the continuum,
Maureen Spielman:and I think it was around. When you talk about that your kids
Maureen Spielman:were at home being unschooled, yet they would have playdates
Maureen Spielman:with kids who went to a traditional school or they would
Maureen Spielman:have you know playdates with kids who were homeschooled or
Maureen Spielman:unschooled. And they so one of these misperceptions was that
Maureen Spielman:you don't have as rich of a social life if you're
Maureen Spielman:unschooled. So I mean, we can start there with unschooling,
Maureen Spielman:but what are like? And what are your kind of hallmarks of the
Maureen Spielman:unschooling experience or John Holt's or whatever you want to
Maureen Spielman:share?
Unknown:Well, definitely to your point about socialization,
Unknown:which is something that we get asked a lot, and it's probably
Unknown:easy for people to think about it as you must be in a vacuum,
Unknown:you know, maybe your kids don't see because we're so used to the
Unknown:structure of school, a bunch of kids all together with one
Unknown:teacher at the front. And the idea of, you know, you don't
Unknown:have that classroom setting, how do you meet people? But so yes,
Unknown:there's some intention will be there was some intention on my
Unknown:part around trying to find a group of people, which I did, I
Unknown:was lucky to we were in Houston. So we had a big city, lots of
Unknown:people around and, and enough to find a little core group of
Unknown:families with kids roughly in that same age range, who all
Unknown:were interested in just playing or doing things. So we didn't
Unknown:all have the exact same educational philosophy but we
Unknown:had very similar parenting philosophies. So I feel like all
Unknown:of us were very respectful parents, we had similar values.
Unknown:And that was very important to me because I wanted my kids
Unknown:around other kids who were happy and grounded and feeling you
Unknown:know, feeling good from that standpoint, because I think what
Unknown:I've noticed is that when you're happy, you don't you don't bully
Unknown:other people. You don't you aren't mean you aren't petty,
Unknown:you know that that usually comes from a feeling of lack in in a
Unknown:person themselves. So having having a peep having people
Unknown:around that we're all happy. And on that same wavelength with
Unknown:her, it was really important to me. And yeah, you know, it was
Unknown:there's no lack of activities for kids if you look. And if you
Unknown:don't find what you want, you make what you, you make
Unknown:something happen, you know, which isn't that hard either
Unknown:especially because the nice thing about being homeschooled
Unknown:or unschooled is that you've got all these hours during the day
Unknown:when a lot of institutions or teachers, music, teachers,
Unknown:museums, they're not busy, because and so they've got time.
Unknown:And they're happy to fill those hours with some way, especially
Unknown:with kids who are eager to learn because the kids that are you
Unknown:know, when you're doing something, because you've chosen
Unknown:that activity, that's the thing that all all the coaches and
Unknown:teachers that we dealt with, were constantly saying about our
Unknown:group, a group of kids, gosh, everybody is so they're so
Unknown:happy. They're so enthusiastic, they're so nice to each other.
Unknown:And I said, Well, that's because they want to be here. And they
Unknown:know that they don't have to be here, they could leave at any
Unknown:time they got control, they have agency to, to leave if they
Unknown:don't like it. And so yeah, of course, they're happy, because
Unknown:they're always doing something they wanted to do.
Maureen Spielman:Yeah, it's a beautiful byproduct for kids to
Maureen Spielman:be able to experience the choice. As a mother, it's also
Maureen Spielman:you take on a lot. And I imagine that looks like a lot of
Maureen Spielman:different ways. You know, I think that you were able to stay
Maureen Spielman:home with your children. And so there's probably, do you see
Maureen Spielman:certain subsets of the population of unschoolers?
Maureen Spielman:Working? And then how does that work? Do guides come in? And are
Maureen Spielman:rotating houses? Or what kind of what does that look like?
Unknown:Oh, good question. So yes, certainly, I would say it's
Unknown:unusual for, let's say, working parents to unschool. But it's
Unknown:not impossible. And a lot of people do it. And here's the
Unknown:thing is, so instead of thinking about I'm my kids need to be
Unknown:taught or they need to be in a learning environment. Try to
Unknown:shift the paradigm to consider that your children are able to
Unknown:learn, they come wired into this life to learn, they started from
Unknown:the time they were babies, learning about their their
Unknown:limbs, learning how to communicate learning how to
Unknown:ambulation how to get places, that doesn't stop when they are
Unknown:two, or three, or four or seven or eight, they're always able to
Unknown:learn. So rather than think I have, they have to be I have to
Unknown:be there teaching them all they need is an environment that safe
Unknown:to to work in. So some, what some single moms even have done
Unknown:is they make sure their children are in a in when they're too
Unknown:young to be left on their own, that they're in a safe place
Unknown:where there are some resources for them to play. Because
Unknown:remember, we think of play as adults in our, in our culture,
Unknown:we think of play as a bad thing as a frivolous thing. But play
Unknown:is the work of children it is how they're learning, they're
Unknown:trying things on they, they try on ideas and, and emotions and
Unknown:in all kinds of things, you know, from from physical block
Unknown:towers to, you know, emotional ideas. And so that's what they
Unknown:need is just an environment to play in for the years until
Unknown:they're until they're able to really start to teach
Unknown:themselves. So in a way a parent could, it could theoretically
Unknown:never be with their kids very much. Maybe No, never. But
Unknown:during the hours that they're home, they can read together,
Unknown:they can talk together they can be together. And if the parent
Unknown:is trusting that the child is in a safe place and can learn on
Unknown:their own, that's really all that they need. And you're
Unknown:empowering your child to say I'm able to do this I'm capable of
Unknown:learning on my own and then all you have to do as a parent is
Unknown:just provides resources around those can be books, those could
Unknown:be internet, those could be other people, they could be
Unknown:teachers, they could be tutors, not necessarily like but so
Unknown:there's just so many different ways.
Maureen Spielman:So would you say that wood wood the way you
Maureen Spielman:structure it in your own home, say okay, you know, roughly from
Maureen Spielman:this hour to this our our our school hours and so there would
Maureen Spielman:be that expectation for the kids.
Unknown:Well, again, I didn't do it that way and we We're just
Unknown:living life. Like we would get up in the morning. They would do
Unknown:their thing I would do my thing we'd be in the house together,
Unknown:they would they could they had access to me all the time if
Unknown:they needed me if they had a question, but I wasn't directing
Unknown:their play. And so the idea of school hours is, again, it's a
Unknown:paradigm that we're taking from our the culture of school saying
Unknown:that there should be but if you look at human beings, at
Unknown:sometimes my my role model was, was more j in the cave, the cave
Unknown:woman, you know, what was what would Jane do used to be what
Unknown:was in my head, like, she didn't have school, she had a life.
Unknown:They were they were living life, okay, they were looking for
Unknown:food, they were finding, you know, making shelter, they were
Unknown:enjoying nature, they were traveling, they were doing those
Unknown:things. So, you know, that's the kind of model that I was
Unknown:thinking about, for, what are we doing? How are we playing? How
Unknown:are we interacting? So it's just, you know, we talked a lot
Unknown:we did things we were in the car together driving to this thing
Unknown:or that but was very non school ish. It's the word unschooling.
Maureen Spielman:Yeah. Thanks for shedding light on that. And,
Maureen Spielman:and I love the the, the just taking a look at at a structure
Maureen Spielman:that's existed for a long time. And just saying, curious about
Maureen Spielman:this, you know, does this work for our family? Do we want to do
Maureen Spielman:it a little bit different? I'm curious about your experience,
Maureen Spielman:as you began to kind of step into getting curious about how
Maureen Spielman:these days were going to go how you wanted your kids to learn,
Maureen Spielman:I'm sure that it gradually unfolded as the days and months
Maureen Spielman:and years went by. But did you see yourself looking at other
Maureen Spielman:parts of your life differently? I don't know if that makes
Maureen Spielman:sense. But just like, I feel like you your path, the way you
Maureen Spielman:describe it, it's a lot of letting go of what you thought
Maureen Spielman:was right, what you thought, or you may not even thought it was
Maureen Spielman:right, what you what you were told to do. And so you
Maureen Spielman:questioned a lot, like, does this work for me anymore? And
Maureen Spielman:did that become sort of a more of a life mantra is that? I
Unknown:guess, yes, it did very much. So and I think I talked
Unknown:about a little bit in the book, you know that there were some
Unknown:pillars that really fell for me, one of which was our western
Unknown:medicine sort of fell, because I had always trusted that, as you
Unknown:know, as a as a young child, that the medical community had
Unknown:my best interest at heart just that seemed normal to me. And it
Unknown:wasn't until I had a baby, and was going to see pediatrician
Unknown:that I realized I was getting advice. Again, well meaning
Unknown:advice, that that was not really in my best interest. It was a
Unknown:cultural norm. But it wasn't necessarily what was working for
Unknown:me, what was working for my baby. And that's that little
Unknown:shift, that little paradigm shift started to call into
Unknown:question all of the, of the medical side. So not that all
Unknown:medical advice is bad. And please don't get me wrong. I
Unknown:don't mean that at all. But there are times when profit
Unknown:comes before people. And I I never knew that before. I mean,
Unknown:this was something that was a revelation to me at the time.
Unknown:And now I am able to see through a different lens to see, not
Unknown:everything is as it seems. So that was a one big pillar to
Unknown:fall. And then institutional religion was a little bit of a
Unknown:pillar for me too. Again, not all institutional religion is
Unknown:bad, but there are times when the institution itself is more
Unknown:important to people than the than the message or the people
Unknown:themselves that are in it. So that was another sort of pillar
Unknown:to follow because I really, I wanted a more a more direct
Unknown:relationship with my Creator. And I like that I can I can have
Unknown:that now I can have I can choose my own beliefs. It's a choose
Unknown:your own adventure story. I can choose the beliefs that I want
Unknown:to keep, and I can let go of the ones that don't serve me. So
Unknown:it's a it's a very, you know, there's a very conscious choice
Unknown:on my part for that. And then the third one was kind of
Unknown:education is stuck because I was already those other two pillars
Unknown:had sort of fallen for me. In other words, I It's like the
Unknown:curtain had been open to you know, Dr. Oz had been revealed.
Unknown:And so I now saw things in a different light. And education
Unknown:was in the same way I realized, gosh, you know, education as we
Unknown:know, it isn't really how people learn. You know? We know this,
Unknown:we know that the best learning happens in a place where you're
Unknown:able to fail. And you're able to fail as often as you need to, in
Unknown:order to gain the skill. But you know, most of our conventional
Unknown:educational are not places where you want to fail, you're,
Unknown:you're, you're either punished for fail failing, you're shamed
Unknown:for failing. And so you when you when you stop failing, you stop
Unknown:learning. Yeah, so we, you know, we know this, this is, this
Unknown:isn't Yeah, information.
Maureen Spielman:And it makes sense to that a child, that they
Maureen Spielman:would be feeling so much if they did fail in the conventional
Maureen Spielman:sense, because you're talking about failing in a completely
Maureen Spielman:different way. Right? It's just like, the way you're talking
Maureen Spielman:about it is like, this is life, we all fail. We all and like, we
Maureen Spielman:all have our strengths. And then we all have our areas of
Maureen Spielman:challenges, and, and what are they for you? And how do we get
Maureen Spielman:through that, but I feel like sometimes in some institutions,
Maureen Spielman:and it can be across all three that you named, there can be,
Maureen Spielman:you know, based on what happens to us or our choices, we can
Maureen Spielman:have overlays of shame, because it just takes away what we
Maureen Spielman:really know. And then we're being told we don't know. And
Maureen Spielman:yeah, I related to when we had about the medical because I to
Maureen Spielman:hold Western and alternative complementary both, you know,
Maureen Spielman:gently in both hands. And you know, through my journey,
Maureen Spielman:there's been things told to me that are not resonant. And it's,
Maureen Spielman:it's a retraining I've had to do to, to trust myself. And that
Maureen Spielman:was a theme. I think, when I started reading the book, it was
Maureen Spielman:maybe you said it, but it was interesting, the journey. And
Maureen Spielman:that that just seemed like a big theme of the book and your
Maureen Spielman:journey. Yeah, very much so. And like I hear you saying it's just
Maureen Spielman:like the unfolding the unraveling, the willingness, the
Maureen Spielman:curiosity. Yeah, I liked it's kind of going back but I had
Maureen Spielman:written down, because it was a John hold quote, that you use in
Maureen Spielman:the part one of your book, but it said trust children, nothing
Maureen Spielman:could be more simple, or more difficult, difficult, because to
Maureen Spielman:trust children, children, we must first learn to trust
Maureen Spielman:ourselves. And most of us were taught as children that we could
Maureen Spielman:not be trusted. And I therein lies the work I do with coaching
Maureen Spielman:is that everything and this is the part I like, when you talk
Maureen Spielman:about self care, and you went into that part of the book is
Maureen Spielman:that or what was being brought up for you to heal in the
Maureen Spielman:process of unschooling really, and but just this idea, most of
Maureen Spielman:us were taught as children that we could not be trusted. So
Maureen Spielman:again, we are taken away from our truth, our intuition, our
Maureen Spielman:knowing, which is I know, it's a cornerstone of unschooling, like
Maureen Spielman:we want these kids to hold on to this as much as possible. But
Maureen Spielman:did you see that in yourself? I know you did. But like in the
Maureen Spielman:book, talk about what you learned about yourself and what
Maureen Spielman:what you had to shed from your early days?
Unknown:Oh, so much. Yes. So much. And I, you know, I was, I
Unknown:was listening to one of your podcasts earlier, the
Unknown:relationship, one, I can't remember their names, but they
Unknown:did such a nice job of talking about it. And he was talking
Unknown:about trigger points that came up, I think, for him, it was
Unknown:maybe a son screaming that kind of triggered him. And then he
Unknown:had to realize through some therapy that Oh, that was a
Unknown:trigger because of something that happened or didn't happen
Unknown:for me in my childhood. And now that I know that I can deal
Unknown:better with that, right. So you it was a wound for him that he
Unknown:needed to heal. And I all through the time of unschooling
Unknown:my kids and being with them in this very, you know, natural
Unknown:sort of very authentic way. I was constantly meeting up with
Unknown:trigger points that needed to be worked out. And I'm not saying I
Unknown:was great at it, and there were a lot of things that I still
Unknown:haven't worked out, but but they were coming up for me and they
Unknown:were our situation really forced me. At least this is how it felt
Unknown:to me to look at those and deal with those in a way because I
Unknown:was, you know, it's kind of like I was because I was wanting to
Unknown:be very authentic to my kids. I was very naked emotionally in
Unknown:front of them. They were seeing everything they were so I
Unknown:couldn't I couldn't hide. And I didn't want to hide because I
Unknown:realized that everything that I worked through was benefiting
Unknown:them as well as it was benefiting me. So I used to tell
Unknown:people that are that are on this unschooling journey that have
Unknown:started down this journey and they get it The work is not on
Unknown:your children, the work is on you. And everything that you are
Unknown:doing just automatically falls into a benefit for your kids. So
Unknown:the work, that's what I fell is that the unschooling work is
Unknown:really very personal. And it was, you know, it was hard, but
Unknown:it was also very fulfilling.
Maureen Spielman:So that makes sense. Yeah. And it's like you,
Maureen Spielman:I appreciate the transparency and vulnerability and ties to
Maureen Spielman:Leslie in Juan's episode, because that was such a nugget
Maureen Spielman:that he was talking about that is life principle and guide, but
Maureen Spielman:that you knew you had awareness that you were showing up in
Maureen Spielman:certain emotions, and in all ways, and hat and, and maybe at
Maureen Spielman:first thought that, well, this is good, it's got to be good,
Maureen Spielman:because they can see it all. And we're all we all have the range
Maureen Spielman:of emotions as humans, and then figuring like all, but maybe I
Maureen Spielman:need to do more work underneath that, and maybe I and, but I do
Maureen Spielman:love that portion of so often, because so many homes of our
Maureen Spielman:origins, we, of course, were coming from parents who, you
Maureen Spielman:know, my grandpa, my grandfather was in the Depression, you know,
Maureen Spielman:they didn't have food he didn't, but all the suppression that
Maureen Spielman:comes down all the, the misplaced emotions and the, you
Maureen Spielman:know, not expressed, and it's just all like that continuum of
Maureen Spielman:all of our lives of how do we get to the most healing and
Maureen Spielman:healthiest expression of ourselves?
Unknown:Right. So a lot of honesty, and I want to make a
Unknown:point is this honesty, I, you, you mentioned earlier, that this
Unknown:book could be for somebody that really isn't even interested in
Unknown:homeschooling, or unschooling, and one of the things that I've
Unknown:been asked is, What would I have to say to somebody that, can't
Unknown:do that, or doesn't want to do that, and there is something
Unknown:really important that that parents can do, and I know,
Unknown:you'll know, this from maybe from conscious parenting is, is
Unknown:to be honest with your children. Because even if you're having to
Unknown:send your school, your child to school, and maybe they're not
Unknown:all that happy with school, if you're at least honest, and say,
Unknown:what the reason I'm sending you to school is because I have to
Unknown:work and I don't have any other place for you to go, and I can't
Unknown:or I'm not able yet to to do unschooling I'm, it's, I don't
Unknown:have the capacity for that right now, I don't have the bandwidth
Unknown:for it right now. And so therefore, I need you to be in
Unknown:this place, but understand that I love you more than the grades
Unknown:you're making, or you know, so just be being honest. Suddenly,
Unknown:the child says, Oh, they're really that child knows when
Unknown:you're being really honest with them or not. I mean, they're
Unknown:totally they got they got the radar down. And so when, when
Unknown:they hear that you're really being honest and authentic, oh,
Unknown:my goodness, the relationship goes to a whole new level of, of
Unknown:credibility, you know, your credibility is, is intact, you.
Unknown:So being honest, and you can start that at anytime, even if
Unknown:you've not been honest. If before, if you've not been
Unknown:honest with yourself, and therefore you've not been honest
Unknown:with him. Every little onion layer that you peel off is a
Unknown:hell, you know, every little, every little change is a step
Unknown:forward.
Maureen Spielman:I appreciate that. Yeah. Yeah. Because I
Maureen Spielman:think that I mean, the whole conversation is, or a lot of our
Maureen Spielman:conversation today is how do we put down our fears? And what
Maureen Spielman:what are we afraid of? And, you know, I think, yeah, there's a
Maureen Spielman:lot to be said there. And if we are transparent with our
Maureen Spielman:children, and if we show up, you know, in our emotions, or even,
Maureen Spielman:you know, I'm pretty transparent about, you know, I don't like
Maureen Spielman:this particular part of what's going on, or this kind of thing.
Maureen Spielman:And I think my partner will be more like, Maureen, you
Maureen Spielman:shouldn't say that. Because the fear is, if I say that, then the
Maureen Spielman:child's going to say, Oh, well, then heck, I'm not you know, I'm
Maureen Spielman:leaving. I like if mom thinks that then I'm not studying for
Maureen Spielman:that test, or whatever it is, but that's not really what's
Maureen Spielman:happening beneath the surface, what's happening is your child
Maureen Spielman:find you relatable. They're they think, like, Oh, my parent
Maureen Spielman:understands me, she, she gets what I'm going through, she's
Maureen Spielman:seeing that this is hard. For me. It's, I really think that
Maureen Spielman:that's true. And that that's all our kids are really looking for
Maureen Spielman:is that relatability
Unknown:Right. Right. They so thrive on authenticity. Yeah.
Unknown:And they need us to, they need us to lead the way on that. And
Unknown:that also kind of comes back to another really important thing
Unknown:that my husband and I were were, there was a big underlying
Unknown:underlining of our parenting is personal responsibility. You
Unknown:know, so when you're authentic with your child, you're taking
Unknown:personal responsibility for your emotions, and why and the fact
Unknown:that you feel them, and you don't need to apologize for the
Unknown:fact again, you're, you're showing the way by being honest
Unknown:with yourself by opening up and understanding like, again, you
Unknown:know, when there's a trigger, saying to yourself, gosh, why?
Unknown:Why do I have why? Why do I have a fear there? What's what's
Unknown:behind that fear? What's behind that feeling? What's behind that
Unknown:clench that I feel in my stomach? And go back into that
Unknown:and and delve in and say, Where did that come from? And is that
Unknown:true? Or is it if because it may not be true anymore? Maybe it
Unknown:was true once upon a time, and it's not true anymore. And then
Unknown:you can go, oh, I can let that go again, or I can, you know, I
Unknown:can overcome that fear. And so yeah, a person taking personal
Unknown:responsibility is very important, as the parent because
Unknown:you're teaching your children, that's what you should do, you
Unknown:need to take personal responsibility.
Maureen Spielman:Absolutely, absolutely love that personal
Maureen Spielman:responsibility. And, you know, the word that before we started
Maureen Spielman:recording today is just giving yourself permission, because I
Maureen Spielman:have had to give myself permission around one of my
Maureen Spielman:children's school experience, and, you know, a spiritual
Maureen Spielman:teacher of mine had pointed out at one time, and it's just like,
Maureen Spielman:going to a doctor and speaking your truth or, but she did, she
Maureen Spielman:did, it was very supportive of me, because she was able to say,
Maureen Spielman:Maureen, this is a really big deal speaking up to the
Maureen Spielman:institution, because it's not like a conscious belief that we
Maureen Spielman:don't want to hear from parents, but that it's running underneath
Maureen Spielman:the system somewhere of like, we've got a time clock, and
Maureen Spielman:these meetings are X amount, 20 minutes, and, you know, so I had
Maureen Spielman:to, I have to take that responsibility, I have to go
Maureen Spielman:into myself, and, you know, really stand up for my child and
Maureen Spielman:my belief systems. So it's kind of like we're working some
Maureen Spielman:symbiotically. I don't know if that's the right word. But it's,
Maureen Spielman:it's knowing that, you know, even for people who choose
Maureen Spielman:traditional conventional school, use your voice, give yourself
Maureen Spielman:permission, because if you intuitively know something is
Maureen Spielman:right for your child, and you're getting internal information
Maureen Spielman:that that's true. Don't quiet your voice, keep, you know, keep
Maureen Spielman:on going forward and expressing yourself. Because, you know,
Maureen Spielman:we're teaching our kids this, and we want them to be able to
Maureen Spielman:experience it An example would be I think even I was something
Maureen Spielman:around advocating for yourself. And then, and then like, I think
Maureen Spielman:I'm thinking of my son, and like, then he, over the years,
Maureen Spielman:he's gaining the confidence and the ability to advocate for
Maureen Spielman:himself, only to be told no, when he did it, you know? And so
Maureen Spielman:it's like, wait a minute, if that doesn't feel right, let's
Maureen Spielman:go back and just have the conversation. It doesn't have to
Maureen Spielman:be. I think another way we were all like a lot of us were raised
Maureen Spielman:was that communication was confrontation. Or I will own
Maureen Spielman:that for myself that it felt like if I had something to say
Maureen Spielman:like it was this big thing. And it's like, no, let's let's all
Maureen Spielman:retrain ourselves, that it's just a conversation. It's just a
Maureen Spielman:conversation. And so you don't your nervous system doesn't have
Maureen Spielman:to go crazy. You don't have to think fear is on the other side.
Maureen Spielman:Something bad's gonna happen. But yeah, I'm going off here.
Maureen Spielman:But that's that's true.
Unknown:That's true. And I think there was something that
Unknown:you said about I've lost it. Cold, I know, like when you're
Unknown:if you're when you're speaking up for your child, one thing
Unknown:that might be helpful, and this was something that I used to
Unknown:kind of keep in the back of my mind is, you know, what, if you
Unknown:were Einsteins mother, or Edison's mother or Steve Jobs,
Unknown:mother, Beethoven's mother, and everybody's pressuring you, to
Unknown:have your kid be the same as everybody else, you know, but,
Unknown:but they're not the same as everybody else. And no kid is
Unknown:the same as everybody else. So that's why I say like, I truly
Unknown:believe that every child is a genius. And and the reason I, I
Unknown:mean, maybe I use that word in ways that other people really
Unknown:don't like. But to me, every unique individual is so
Unknown:important to our cosmos. And it's so important that that
Unknown:unique individual is is allowed to express in their unique way.
Unknown:So if you if you're going to advocate for your child, try to
Unknown:think of it and to herbs have not that they're all not not
Unknown:like a snowflake. I mean, not that everybody's you know, too
Unknown:delicate to do but but that everybody is unique and that
Unknown:it's important that everybody is able to express that. So maybe
Unknown:that would help for a mom, mom or a dad that needs to advocate
Unknown:for their child and feels nervous about that. It's hard to
Unknown:do that in an institution because the institution is, is
Unknown:not set up for that. It's it's just the nature of an
Unknown:institution. That's how, you know, that's why I didn't that's
Unknown:really why I wanted out of that institution, because I wanted
Unknown:the freedom to be able to move.
Maureen Spielman:Yeah. And do that was also well said, thanks
Maureen Spielman:for sharing that beautiful wisdom with the listeners. I
Maureen Spielman:will we haven't even talked about your kids. I know we're
Maureen Spielman:nearing the end. But your kids are, I think in their older 20s
Maureen Spielman:now. And they did, they were homeschooled from birth to 18,
Maureen Spielman:and went on to college educations, which might be
Maureen Spielman:something that people don't know does happen, and you can have
Maureen Spielman:this non traditional approach to education, and still make that
Maureen Spielman:choice when you come to college age.
Unknown:Right? If that's what you want. I college isn't for
Unknown:everybody. But yes, absolutely. And in fact, a lot of colleges
Unknown:love to have homeschoolers, because those kids come in,
Unknown:they're not burned out, they're not already fried from testing
Unknown:and everything that they've done, and they're and they're
Unknown:still very eager to learn. I mean, I know my daughter will
Unknown:vote, both of my kids went into their classes really engaged,
Unknown:because that's how they had always been engaged in learning
Unknown:with, with other teachers or with other kids. You know, when
Unknown:we did classes, ad hoc little classes, they were always
Unknown:excited about, about learning it hadn't, learning hadn't been
Unknown:given a bad name for them. The way it does for some kids, you
Unknown:know, you say something to a conventional kid about, oh,
Unknown:this, we're going to do this educational thing, they're going
Unknown:to be like, I don't want any part of it. Because education
Unknown:and learning has been given a really bad name for them. It's
Unknown:distasteful, because they know it's been kind of pressed down
Unknown:on them. Whereas my kids never had that association. So
Unknown:learning and educational just seem like Oh, interesting. And
Unknown:they're still, they're both still super engaged in in
Unknown:learning and have all kinds of interesting things. They're very
Unknown:enthusiastic learners.
Maureen Spielman:Wow, that's, that's amazing.
Unknown:It didn't shut down, which I love.
Maureen Spielman:I know that there's so much more that I'd
Maureen Spielman:want to ask around that. But I'm just, I think the touch points
Maureen Spielman:for me during our interview were, you know, your journey as
Maureen Spielman:a mom, as a woman going through these new choices and new
Maureen Spielman:directions, a new path in your life, trusting, shedding,
Maureen Spielman:letting go of what no longer served, and creating this space,
Maureen Spielman:and also seeing children as a whole and humanity as
Maureen Spielman:individual, unique, creative, you know, abundant, like all
Maureen Spielman:these things that we want for them all, and not for them to
Maureen Spielman:feel limited or told they are something that they never even
Maureen Spielman:were, you know, they didn't give permission to be called
Maureen Spielman:something or limited in that way. And so, I think there's so
Maureen Spielman:many beautiful themes. If people are interested in finding your
Maureen Spielman:work, where should they go, Jean.
Unknown:So my website is called success without school.com. I
Unknown:also am on Facebook success without school and on Instagram
Unknown:success without school. I also have a Facebook page called
Unknown:trust your child.com. In fact, trust your child. Sorry, trust
Unknown:your child.com will get you to my web page as well, if they
Unknown:both do, and there's some blog entries there that I've written
Unknown:that will help people I think get a little bit more of a view
Unknown:besides the book, of course, so the books available as an audio
Unknown:book and ebook or paperback on it all your normal book selling
Unknown:options.
Maureen Spielman:Thank you. Thanks for sharing your story,
Maureen Spielman:your experience. It's just the beginning. And I'm so happy to
Maureen Spielman:have you here as part of our sisterhood.
Unknown:Oh my goodness, thank you so much. Yes,
Maureen Spielman:we'll put everything you shared in the
Maureen Spielman:show notes. And yeah, to the listeners. We'll see you next
Maureen Spielman:time. Thanks for listening today.
Maureen Spielman:Thanks for listening to this episode of mystical sisterhood.
Maureen Spielman:If you love what you heard, please visit Apple podcast and
Maureen Spielman:subscribe and leave a review and share with a friend if you're
Maureen Spielman:called to do so. To learn more about my one on one coaching
Maureen Spielman:programs, or join the mystical sisterhood membership Visit
Maureen Spielman:Maureenspielman.com or mysticalsisterhood.com Thanks so
