Episode 211 – stoppable HR Strategic Leader and Consultant with Matthew Burr

So what does the term “HR” mean to you? What is the HR industry? How has it changed over the past several years? These are questions that our guest, Matthew Burr, answers at the beginning of our conversation. Matthew has been an HR consultant for nearly seventeen years.   While we do talk about the state of HR, Matthew discusses many aspects of leadership, being a coach and consultant and how all of us in the work-a-day world can learn and grow both in our working and personal lives.   One of the most interesting topics Matthew and I discuss deals with the first two books he published which are all about successfully paying off student loans in a fraction of the usual time. He will explain that while discipline is important, there really are strategies that may very well help you to get out from under student loans or any debt sooner rather than later. Listen in and see what lessons and thoughts you can take away from this episode of Unstoppable Mindset.   About the Guest:   Matthew Burr has over 16-years of experience working in the human resources field, starting his career as an Industrial Relations Intern at Kennedy Valve Manufacturing to most recently founding and managing a human resource consulting company; Burr Consulting, LLC, Talentscape, LLC and Co-Owner of Labor Love, a Labor, and Employment Law poster printing company. Prior to founding the consulting firm, the majority of his career was heavy industry manufacturing and healthcare. He specializes in compliance auditing, training labor and employment law, conflict resolution, performance management, labor, and employment relations.   Matthew has a generalist background in HR and operations, while providing strategic HR and operational solutions to his clients, focusing on small and medium sized organizations. He works as an Adjunct at Alfred State University, Tompkins Cortland Community College, and The College of St. Rose.   He successfully designed an HR Concentration in the business management major that aligned with both SHRM and HRCI certifications, providing opportunities for students to sit for both the SHRM-CP and aPHR certifications upon completion of the degree, concentration, and internship hours as an Assistant Professor of Management at Elmira College (Retired January 2022). Matthew is also the SHRM Certification Exam Instructor, with a current pass rate of 92% on the SHRM-SCP and 83% pass rate on the SHRM-CP and a combined 88% on both exams over a 7-year period of instructing the course (Elmira College, Collin College & The College of St. Rose).   Matthew works as a trainer Tompkins Cortland Community College, Corning Community College, Broome Community College, and HR Instructor for Certification Preparation for the Human Resource Certification Institute (HRCI). He also acts as an On-Call Mediator and Factfinder through the Public Employment Relations Board in New York State, working with public sector employers and labor unions.   ** ** Ways to connect with Matthew: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0CC4L6ZQH?ref_=cm_sw_r_apan_dp_Y6A40806CGYDQDJFVR09_1 Burr Consulting, LLC Blog: What’s New in HR iTunes: The Upstate HR Podcast Facebook: Burr Consulting, LLC LinkedIn: Burr Consulting, LLC Twitter: @Burrconsulting       About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog.   Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards.   https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/   accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/   https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/       Thanks for listening!   Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below!   Subscribe to the podcast   If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can also subscribe in your favorite podcast app.   Leave us an Apple Podcasts review   Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts.     Transcription Notes

Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.   Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hi, once again, this is Mike Hingson and I want to welcome you to another edition of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity in the unexpected meet. And our guests. Matthew Burr certainly has lots of experience with the unexpected. He has been in the HR profession for 16 years, he's done a lot of teaching, he's done a lot of consulting, has amassed a great amount of expertise. And I'm gonna let him talk more about that than then. Me doing it because he's the guy who should know. So Matthew, welcome to unstoppable mindset. We're really glad you're here.   Matthew Burr ** 01:56 Yeah, Michael, again, appreciate you having me on here, your podcast and always happy to, to join and answer any questions and tell any any crazy stories I've dealt with over the last 16, almost 17 years, it'd be 17 years in December, I started my consulting company eight years ago in October, so October of 2015. And really like to support any organization small, you know, small organization up to medium size on the HR front and help, you know, business does really align HR strategy to the needs of their organization and watch leaders grow and evolve and become very, very well versed in the Employee Relations and making sure we're doing everything compliant as well.   Michael Hingson ** 02:40 Works for me, needless to say, Well, why don't we start maybe going back a little further and tell us kind of about the early Matthew, getting stuck, you know, growing up and why you ended up where you were and that kind of thing, because something had to start that process. But you you started out as a kid like the rest of us and tell me about that.   Matthew Burr ** 03:02 Yeah, you know, again, started out really came from Logan, Utah, right around right north of Logan, Utah. I grew up there for 14 years and then made the decision to leave home when I was 14 years old and move across the country and realized it really going down I think a bad path in life not making the best decisions. My parents separated early on in life and didn't have a great relationship with either them and was able to make the decision and come back to upstate New York and live with family when I was 15 and finish out high school and from there went on to college and I think struggle in the beginning. Right. I didn't do great in college. And ironically now i They let me teach at these schools after having a few, a few bad semesters. I'll just put it that way. But yeah, I mean, again, just kind of finding my footing, you know, early on in life and in the you know, early 2000s 2001 2002 didn't really know what I was going to do. I decided to relocate to Phoenix for a little while and move back to Utah, worked in a call center for I don't know six or seven months and realize that the academic path was probably the right place for me to be I realized there was more. I think there was a calling to get back in and finish the academic side and decided to return to New York and finished my associates degree at a community college went on to get my bachelor's degree and while I was an undergraduate decided to pursue an HR internship and I've stayed in the career field ever since and then really been able to grow into a professional I mean, and again, my education really hasn't stopped. I'm recently completing a Lean Six Sigma black belt as well. Just that actually tonight's the last class on that. So I've really been in college, buy in in certifications on and off probably for the past 22 years is trying to upskill myself and do what I can do to make a difference in the market. Damak world and also in the consulting world, so I do teach part time as well. You know, the number of schools as an adjunct professor truly enjoy that I was a full time professor for five years, retired from that field and was able to continue to do some teaching part time online. I do a lot of travel now and live out of state in Texas at times from New York. So teaching in a classroom gets incredibly complicated when you travel like that. So yeah, I mean, again, you know, spend played football golf when I was younger baseball as well, it's been a lot of time in the weight room and trying to just keep myself you know, mentally sane, dealing with some of the craziness, you know, that I deal with on the HR front, but, ya know, it's, it's been it's been a great a great life, I wouldn't ask for anything different challenges and really blessed I got to live a blessed life, which I'm appreciate elbow. So   Michael Hingson ** 05:53 Well, that certainly is cool by any standard, what got you from college then to go into HR? I know you started out in as an intern in a valve manufacturing company and so on. Was that HR or what got you into that?   Matthew Burr ** 06:10 Yeah, so when I was a senior in Elmira College, the there was a requirement to, to complete an internship and I was lucky enough, you know, in really interviewed well, to get that internship in the industrial relations department, which is your your HR department, it's an old school word for HR. My grandfather actually worked there for 35 years as an electrician. So being able to work in the same facility with some of the same people he worked with was a very unique experience. And during that internship, I had taken a Myers Briggs test personality test in one of my classes, and HR, attorney, marketing manager and financial advisor all came up with my personality aligned, the personality that align with the career and I was already doing the internship and HR looked at the other fields and really stuck with this when I did apply to law school in 2014 2015, was wait listed a number of schools and was unsuccessful in getting admitted, but I've had a good ride in the HR field. So really, the internship and then the personality test, kind of set me on the path to success in the HR field at this point.   Michael Hingson ** 07:25 Well, and looking at your bio, though, you clearly have and it makes perfect sense to have a knowledge or some knowledge of HR law and, and being able to be conversant in that whether you're actually a certified real degreed or whatever, lawyer, you still have a lot of knowledge that you've gained over the years about that, and I assume that that has helped a lot. Yeah,   Matthew Burr ** 07:50 and I did i my i do have three master's degrees. And the last one was a master's degree in jurisprudence, Labor Employment Law through two lane it's not a JD, but it is a master's degree in specific HR law, which, which has been helpful. I mean, it's an area that I've specialized in really, throughout my career and understanding it in detail. The laws change across the country, even state and local white on the HR front, I would say insurance takes daily, so it's an area you've got to be well versed in, but yeah, absolutely. And I work closely with a lot of attorneys in the work that I do. And I've always been interested in the law, labor law, employment law, so it was really a natural fit, happy to have that knowledge. And it's continuous education as things evolve, for sure. So   Michael Hingson ** 08:37 well, how do you define HR in the in the HR world? You know, I suppose there are probably a lot of different ways to describe it, but how would you describe HR? Um, you know, I   Matthew Burr ** 08:51 see it as an evolving area, I in many organizations where I think it was seen as much more administrative, you know, benefit enrollment, hire people, fire people, your new hire paperwork, the employee handbook, maybe some training too much more strategic, where we're helping align, really HR departments, with the needs of the organization, looking at business, HR, business partners, strategic partners, and helping drive business solutions through the human resources department. That's where I see it going. I think we have a long way to go. As a profession. I think that HR, the profession in general needs to understand, you know, finances and operations, customer service and the internal workings of an organization as you evolve into a more seasoned strategic professional. But yeah, you know, it's gotten from much more transactional type of work to much more strategic So, but that's where I see it going. And again, there's always I think, areas of opportunity improvement for any HR professional or any department to look at based on the needs of the organization. So   Michael Hingson ** 09:59 Yeah, well, obviously that can even be a moving target depending on what the organization is doing or how it's evolving as well. Sure,   Matthew Burr ** 10:10 absolutely. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, definitely. And again, I think one of the key focuses, recently has obviously been on the great resignation people, you know, the turnover rates across around the world has been astronomical, and how do we continue to maintain? You know, you know, internal growth, succession planning, when people are changing jobs every 12 to 24 months or less at this point? Right. And I, you know, again, I think mental health has become a big deal as well, I think we've had a lot of challenges with that in the workplace, the culture, the communication, all those areas, I think HR plays an intricate role in helping drive strategy on and helping evolving based on the needs of, you know, the business, the workforce, and the and really the consumer as well. So   Michael Hingson ** 10:56 you can think about this whole concept and phenomena that we're experiencing now where people change jobs every 12 to 24 months, it didn't used to be that way. Why is it shifted to doing that? And is that necessarily a good thing? Or how valuable would it be if we got back to more of a mindset where people stayed at one place longer?   Matthew Burr ** 11:23 You know, and I was talking about this yesterday with another another person. And I mentioned a study, I'd read that the study out of Europe said Gen Z is going to change jobs or change careers potentially 30 times throughout their career lifespan, right. I mean, that's, that's a, that's a huge number at this point. You're changing jobs every 12 to 15 months. There's, I think there's value in in turn, and organizations in turnover related to, you know, bringing in fresh ideas fresh, you know, fresh blood, not looking at the way we've always operated. I think that it does, it is harmful to organizations, if we're having 80 90% of turnover, every club and there's problems in an organization, right. But I think if we can show the value in in growing succession planning and developing internal talent and get that communication out to the workforce, you are going to have opportunities to recruit and retain. Look from a longevity standpoint, I think if you can retain talent, you can bring the right people in and grow talent, you're ahead of the competition, because I think that's an area that most businesses struggle with right now. And so how do we do that? How do we make sure people are empowered? Engaged? It's discussions I think most organizations around the world are having at this point.   Michael Hingson ** 12:45 Why do you think we've migrated toward this kind of a situation as opposed to people staying at companies a whole lot longer?   Matthew Burr ** 12:54 Well, I mean, you got, you know, pension, pension plans are pretty much gone at this point. I think those were big. I mean, you know, the I think the retiree benefits and things like that, that used to be offered at major corporations are non existent anymore. I think that plays a role in it. I think the loyalty factor to an extent, is gone. But I also think people are looking for promotional opportunities and growth. And I think we've got to be able to sell that internal in organizations to show there is a path to growth, a path to success, if you're willing to take on the challenge. And, you know, and do the hard work to get there. You know, again, I think that that is one area. I also think that organizations at times struggle with disengagement I think people become bored in roles. I think we have communication issues, decision making inconsistencies, the psychological workplace contract, I think is evolved at this point. You know, again, do people want hybrid remote work jobs? are we offering that as an organization? Those are all questions, I think that every organization has to look at and figure out what works best for them, and how do we recruit and retain talent? I think, you know, a lot of times what it comes down to in what I do as a consultant, at the end of the day is workplace communication. It seems like we're lacking their leadership. I think conflict management, leadership decision making is another one consistent accountabilities and other things as well. The accountability factor is another area to think about there too. You know, again, I think the equity of processes and policies internal is another thing to take a look at. I mean, all those things I think play a role in the churn and dissatisfaction at times in the workplace. I think if you can get your hands around those as as an organization you're going to be in much better position you know, to be competitive and recruit retain people.   Michael Hingson ** 14:53 Yeah, um, this year, maybe I miss assess Same, but it seems to be that we're finding more groups striking than I've seen in quite a while. Is it just kind of coincidence that we've had like the writers and the actors and the I guess, United Auto Workers? I don't know, what are they still planning a strike? Or did they come to an agreement and then hotel workers and there are others, seeing a lot more people in essentially unionizing kind of environments are striking more than I think we've had in the past. Does that really hold true? Or am I miss assessing that?   Matthew Burr ** 15:38 Yeah, I mean, again, I think that, you know, one thing I will say about it is labor does have the advantage to an extent for sure. I mean, I think there is absolute, the labor and union or non union, I think people know, they have the advantage, because there is so many there are so many job openings. There. There is a need for workers. And frankly, I mean, again, some of the settlements, some of these other unions have gotten pilots, I think, you know, the railroad workers have really set the bar pretty high and the UAW coming in wanting like a 50%. pay increase. Yeah, 30 hour week. So yeah, UPS also made sure I don't I don't want to forget the Teamsters and ups, that was another major settlement for labor at this point. So you've seen some significant settlements related to, you know, related to this. And and so, you know, again, I think that yeah, I mean, you see, strike Starbucks is another one at this point. Yeah. I've seen it. But ya know, I think that labor has the advantage across the across the world. And people know that it's not just strikes in this country. There's strikes globally, globally at this point as well. So   Michael Hingson ** 16:51 yeah, well, and again, I'm not saying that they're bad men in any way, shape, or form. But I just noticed that there seems to be an increase. Well, look what's going on in France, they're, they're irate over changing the retirement age from 62. To 64.   Matthew Burr ** 17:11 Yeah, exactly. I mean, I some of those, I mean, some of those strikes, and we haven't seen I mean, you know, there's been some strikes, but the UAW has not struck yet, you know, Teamsters. Pilots didn't, pilots did some, you know, I think some I'd call some work slowdowns and things like that there was some picketing, but you some of that stuff. Now, globally, it really has gotten pretty violent. I, ya know, I mean, it's, it is it is a complicated time between labor and management, and obviously, labor and government as well. So   Michael Hingson ** 17:45 well, how do HR departments and in leaders in HR, and I think leadership is something relatively well, well worth talking about? But how do they help influence or shape policies in companies? Or how can they? And do? Do company leaders really listen to HR?   Matthew Burr ** 18:09 I mean, again, it comes down to do you get have you? Have you earned a seat at the table within your organization, whether it's a non for profit, or government agency, or even a major Fortune? 500? Right. I mean, do you? Do you have the credibility to walk in and make those decisions and help guide that policy? Yeah, I mean, I think that every HR professional should strive to do that, I think people need to be well versed, again, on the business side, on the people side, number one, people side number two business side, and then a close number three is obviously the the Labor and Employment Law side as well. So all those things play a role in helping drive and dictate policy and strategy. But you've got to understand it in detail. I mean, you really do have to be a business centric HR person to help drive those in. And as well have the people in soft skill, the human side of it is critically important as well, the psychological side. But I mean, again, a lot of those policies and procedures, and decisions and processes are going to be dictated on on the legal side as well. So you've got to be well versed in that component as well, a lot of times, you see. And again, I've done work with labor unions for years at this point. A lot of times what happens is, you see the labor relations and the contract negotiations farmed out to attorneys. I mean, I've never even thought about doing that as a as an HR professional that does labor. I mean, but most places have gotten away from having HR people manage labor negotiations, labor contracts, which I think is not a great sign. I think that HR people need to be versed in those things to be effective in their careers. So Well,   Michael Hingson ** 19:49 it seems to me that good HR people have a gift or a strength of being able to relate to people, the people that they serve, which is a Of course, a lot of different aspects of a company. But if you farm things out, you're losing or giving up that whole ability to establish and maintain the relationships that you really need to have.   Matthew Burr ** 20:11 Yeah, no, absolutely. And again, it comes down to relationships, and really maneuvering to get things done. You have to have the relationships with the employees, you have to have the relationships with the management team as well. No. And with the unit, I mean, if we're talking, you know, labor at that point, you've got to have the third party relationship at this point, too, so definitely, but   Michael Hingson ** 20:34 I know you talked about strategic leadership. What does that exactly?   Matthew Burr ** 20:39 You know, I mean, again, I think it's again, driving really driving organization. It's driving strategy, right? It's looking at, you know, looking at the three to five year process for the organization, helping understand making business decisions, based on the needs of the organization in the workforce, I think it's looking at saying, Okay, where do we need to innovate? Where do we need to change mission vision values, really understanding that understanding the financial components helping budget, and then relating it back to HR? I mean, and again, I think there is, you know, strong alignment with HR strategy and the needs of the organization, if you're able to turn the HR department into more of a strategic, I would say, strategic partner at this point in organizations, which I think the the career field is, is still evolving. So, yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 21:35 And it is, it's a process needless to say, well, you know, one of the things I've thought about, and I know and some of our discussions, I think we've touched on it, maybe even before today, but anyone who's a professional at a company, would you view them? Or would you think that the best mindset that they could really adopt would be to be to consider themselves a consultant to be able to advise and to help and whatever else is implied by being a consultant? Yeah,   Matthew Burr ** 22:08 yeah. I mean, and I think that's the book I wrote about HR consulting unboxer HR career, really, you know, it's driven in the book itself is prefaced on how to build an HR consulting company like bootstrap it from scratch at this point. But one of the messages I talked to HR professionals about in some of the speaking engagements that I do on this topic is you've got to look at yourself as an internal consultant, right? What's the return on investment for from an HR department standpoint for the organization? What value are you adding to the organization? How are you effective? Are you measuring your effectiveness? Are you seeking feedback? Can you can you show us some wins and losses, and that's the type of thing you got to look at, I think if you look at your job, as an internal consultant, or even at you know, looking at it as an external consultant, you know, those are things you can do to truly, truly I think, evolve your HR career, your HR department and and really make a major difference at the end of the day for any organization. And eventually, you might become a consultant after that, where you're like, Okay, I can do this. And I can do it for many organizations. And I think that if people look at that, really, as a strategic partner, a consultant, like a decision maker, or you know, trying to establish that relationship, within the relationships within the organization, I think the sky's the limit, I think, again, you're going to understand the needs of not only the workforce, the needs of the business, but also the needs of that consumer or patron or customer, whatever that might be community as well. So   Michael Hingson ** 23:43 well, the other aspect of that, it seems to me is, it goes beyond HR, I think that anyone who really is involved in a company, no matter what their job, could view their position, or maybe ought to view their, their, their job and position as being a consultant. And that implies in part that you have expertise that you can share and should share. And if you're doing it well then other people appreciate you sharing and providing your knowledge.   Matthew Burr ** 24:14 Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And and again, I think that with that apps, you know, if you're looking at it from that lens, and you're saying, Okay, what's the return on investment for my services? How am I making a difference? You know, in the, in the organization, the community in the world, I think you're going to look at things a lot differently. And again, I think part of that goes back to it and at some of the coaching that I do with with executive coaching I do on the side with managers is looking at like an internal SWOT analysis yourself, what are your strengths? What are your weaknesses, where your opportunities and or your threats, both personally and professionally, and I think as you piecemeal that together, kind of map that out on a on a SWOT analysis type diagram, you're going to see again And what you're where your subject matter expert in and where you might need to improve. And I think that as you evolve your skill set your emotional intelligence, you're going to see a major difference not only in your, in your professional life, but also your personal life as well. So   Michael Hingson ** 25:15 yeah, I think that's really it, it it, it does filter into both. And the bottom line is if you really look at it that way, and you analyze what you're doing and how it's being received, then you have questions you can answer if you feel it's not being received, well, why? If it is being received? Well, that's great, and how could you maybe even do it better, and so on, but those are the kinds of things that especially if you discover that you're truly being successful, might going back to what we discussed earlier, help lead you towards staying somewhere where you're successful. Yeah,   Matthew Burr ** 25:50 and look, I mean, with anything in life, I think you've got to recognize we're going to make mistakes, you know, fail forward is a term that I like to use, finding opportunities, looking at ways to evolve your own skill set, looking at ways that you need to change personally and professionally. And as I think you get into that mindset of continuous growth, kind of being obsessed with, with doing things better, getting yourself in a better position. Again, I think it just spills over into everything. discipline and consistency are two terms I use, in everything that I do. If you're disciplined and consistent, I think that's going to take you a lot farther than talent. Well, at this point. I mean, if you're that structured, you're doing the right thing, trying to try and improve yourself, and helping other people get better. I think, again, the sky's the limit, both personally and professionally, to really live the life that you want and achieve the goals that you have at that point. So   Michael Hingson ** 26:43 Well, yeah. I'm a firm believer in that we tend as people not to do nearly as much internal analysis or, or looking at ourselves daily, as we should we don't we just let things go on. We don't really look at things and going, Well, what worked today, what didn't work, and why didn't it work? And we've got to get away from this idea. And I know, that's not what you're saying, but of failure, you know, if you fail, did you really fail? Or is it it's the better way to view it a learning experience that helps you move forward. And we just don't do that we don't do enough self analysis of a lot of things that we do. Yeah.   Matthew Burr ** 27:28 And I look at that I look at any failure as an opportunity. Right mistakes, I call them opportunities. I say when my organizations when we're doing change management. Yeah, I mean, you know, we have a mess, but it's an opportunity to get things better and to get things put in place or improve. And it's the same thing with personal growth. It's like, Yeah, I mean, you made a mistake. You learn something, what did you learn? And how do you improve from it improved from and I think if you're looking at that, through through that lens, again, I mean, I think that, yes, you are going to continue to improve and get better throughout life. And it's just one of those things. We all have life lessons. And sometimes they're hard to learn. But at the same time it is there's always opportunity to do things differently to tweak, to modify, and to improve from any of those lessons, I completely agree with you, Michael,   Michael Hingson ** 28:16 one of the things that I've learned is to stop saying to myself, I'm my own worst critic, I listened to every speech that I give. And I do that because I want to see how I'm doing. And if I can't listen to myself and learn, then no one else is going to be able to help. And I've learned that rather than saying I'm my own worst critic, I really should say and do say I'm my own best teacher, because really, I'm going to be my best teacher and the only person who really deep down can teach me. Other people can impart information, but I need to be the one to be taught and learn being. So I've learned that one of the things that I need to view myself as doing when I am listening to speeches, and so on that I give is it's a learning experience. And that is because I'm my own best teacher, which I think is a whole lot more positive anyway.   Matthew Burr ** 29:08 Yeah, yeah. And I do a lot of self reflection, a lot of meditation, looking at different scenarios and say, Okay, how could have handled this, this? Pull the emotion out of most of the things I do now, I don't make decisions based on emotion. I mean, you know, those are things you've learned through life experience, and just continuing to look at ways to get better. And I think yeah, I mean, again, I like what you're saying about that and listening to your yourself speak. I can't say never listen to myself speak, I should probably start doing that. And that's a good piece of advice. So   Michael Hingson ** 29:40 I remember when I was program director at our campus radio station at UC Irvine. I wanted people to hear themselves because I wanted people to improve and some of the DJs were really not very good. There were a few who were but even so most could use improvement. Had I heard them, but they never heard themselves. And I asked them to record their own shows and they wouldn't. So we did it for them, essentially, without their knowledge. And all we needed to record was them talking, we didn't need to record the music. But at the end of every week, we gave them a cassette and said, You need to listen to this. Because you have to hear what you sound like, you're going to be able to figure that out. And you know, what, people really dramatically improved, who listened?   Matthew Burr ** 30:27 Yeah, working in the call center, I mean, with the quality assurance when when they say that the calls may be recorded, they actually do record those calls and will pull you into a room, and you'll listen to calls and they're going to dissect it and tell you where you need to get better. So we have very similar process. And I've been through that when I was a call center rep back in 2020 years ago, this point, so yeah, no, I Yeah, absolutely. And I can appreciate that whole dynamic, because that is how you get and again, I think you have to accept that's another thing except criticism, be open to feedback in order to evolve at that point. So sure,   Michael Hingson ** 31:02 it makes perfect sense to do that. So you just published your unbox the or HR, professional career. MIT just got published in July, right? Yeah,   Matthew Burr ** 31:15 yes, sir. We published it in July. I wrote it last November, we've kind of been tweaking it and putting the the finite details on it. And we just published it, I think it was like July 18, July 2011, we launched that book on Amazon. And so very happy about it, happy to have it was it's a third book I published which is fantastic. It really kind of dissects my, not only my journey through HR consulting, and building a consulting firm, but also kind of gives you a little bit of backstory on on why I do what I do, how I got involved in it, and, and just kind of looking for opportunities outside of just HR consulting, say it's kind of a well rounded book, I think, the feedback I've gotten from people, you know, as they've read it and want to get an HR consulting, there's things they never thought about. So there, you know, it's a great read, there's resources in there to kind of give you places to write things out and take notes and kind of put your own goals and objectives down and kind of what like action item type lists that are throughout the book. But yeah, no, it's great. I didn't think I'd ever get this third one out and was able to write it in three weeks. And then we published it in July. And I'm happy that the team got it out and work with me and kind of stuck through to the bitter end at this point. So   Michael Hingson ** 32:29 So what's the next one gonna be? No, yet?   Matthew Burr ** 32:34 Yeah, haven't even thought that far ahead. The first two are about student loan repayment. The third one was consulting, probably something about, you know, who knows, now do a bio on myself. I don't know. I mean, maybe the next one will be about some of the scenarios in HR craziness that I deal with. I mean, you get a little bit of that in the consulting book, but there's probably some some case study type of role playing events, and just different scenarios I can run through just from my own personal 20 year career, that would probably be a great training resource for people that want to get into HR. So   Michael Hingson ** 33:09 do you have a story you could tell about some of the craziness of HR? Or would that be giving something away? You don't want to do?   Matthew Burr ** 33:15 Yeah, you know, I mean, you know, a lot of it, you know, it's in, you probably could probably get on a roll and talk about certain things. I don't want to say you don't want to really do too much with the confidentiality, but no, I understand. And so, you know, in a lot of it, you know, again, it's opportunities to evolve processes, it's opportunity to watch organizations be successful, pinpoint weaknesses, and really kind of show the process of getting better. And, you know, in really, in my career Early on, I had the opportunity to work with some really strong consultants that came in, we had a $20 million loss company, we're able to turn around and work very closely with them, as the new HR professional had the opportunity to work in a bankrupt paper mill bait Paper Company at one point. So I've worked in very challenging and tough environments, I think they've prepared me for the challenges and opportunities that I deal with every day. Because I've seen some of it. I mean, not all of it, I say I learned something new probably every day in this field. But, you know, again, I think that it is change management is difficult, whether it's operations or HR or finance, there's always room for improvement, but you got to be real, I think you've got to have thick skin to get in there and kind of exploit weaknesses and really evolve organization does not easy. So   Michael Hingson ** 34:34 good point about having a thick skin. Definitely. More people need to have a little bit more of that. But I'm assuming you have had situations where you had a particular individual who was a problem in one way or another that you were able to turn around and help them become in as a result their company become more successful. Yeah,   Matthew Burr ** 34:55 no, I mean, I you know, I think one of the stories I wrote about endings IKEA director and a nonprofit and really when I started, you know, started with them I happened to be it was a an organization in New York, I happen to be down in Texas at the time, or really got into it. And I was in Texas for a month. And the place was really struggling. And, you know, I, you know, get up early in the morning and swim, I was thinking about how am I going to fix this thing every night. And, and, and again, I had a couple of scenarios. I mean, it was like, Okay, I coach, the executive director manage to put the individual to success, I terminate and replace, or I go in and run the facility myself until we replace. And again, when I came back to New York, I had a very, I think, a very direct conversation and just said, Look, you got to step up, or you got to go, I mean, and I and again, I had a conversation with the board of directors as board president as well, like, this isn't going to work, we're going to have to look at replacing at this point, if the person does not buy into this process. And really over the past, I would say 1218 months 100% turnaround person is in a much better place as a leader. And I mean, drastic improvement on an organization, I can say, that's probably one of my success stories that that comes up off the top of my head, you know, great retention of employees, and you still have turnover, obviously, you're gonna get completely different. And I, I gotta give the person all the credit for buying in and working with me, and really going through some challenges and again, really leveling up in their career and their, their professional life as well. So,   Michael Hingson ** 36:35 yeah, it does get to be a situation where sometimes things have to get really bad before somebody recognizes it, and improves. And I guess that's part of human nature that sometimes it just has to really go far downhill before it can start going back up. Yeah,   Matthew Burr ** 36:53 and I, when I when I talk to clients, first thing I say, when they bring me in, and look, a lot of times my client brought in at times to replace HR professionals or fix HR departments. And I said, Look, we're gonna have I call them wins and losses, right? We're going to have good days, and we're going to have bad days, and we're going to have good weeks, we're gonna have bad, we're gonna have bad months. I mean, so. So I mean, again, like, you're gonna have ups and downs, it's a kind of a roller coaster at this point. And so you've got to be prepared to take that punches and organization and just rebound from and recover. I mean, so those are things that I see all the time. And and how do we continue to, you know, to reinforce that, and I said that to a new client, if we're bringing a new HR person on, we recruited, we were able to fill the job very quickly, but I gotta look, we're still gonna have ups and downs, it's not fixed. It's it. There's things that have to get done, this person is going to come in and help me fix these things. But give it time the process. It didn't break overnight. It's not going to be fixed overnight, either.   Michael Hingson ** 37:54 So it's all about setting expectations, isn't it? Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. Well, you written two books about student loans. So that must be a subject near and dear to your heart. Do you want to would you tell us a little bit about all of that stuff? Yeah,   Matthew Burr ** 38:09 you know, again, having a number of degrees, I could talk about student loans for probably 1520 hours that people want. So really started out to get the journey started, you know, finished my bachelor's degree in 2007, private school in New York had about $15,000 in student loans, when I left, decided to go back and get a master's degree at the University of Illinois. So upon graduation in December of 2011, roughly had seven E's for $75,000 in student loans, and so the goal, you know, as of January 2012, I took a job in northern Michigan, the goal was to get it paid off in under two years, I mean, the 75,000, I think most people thought I was crazy, it was impossible to able to pay that debt off in 23 months. Fast forward to 2016 decided to go back and get an MBA at Syracuse University. finish that degree in December of 2017. Graduated with $117,000. in student loan debt, obviously, MBAs are super expensive from private schools. I paid that debt off in 33 months, and then I finished a third master's degree roughly 40,000, borrowed there, and I was able to pay that off about four months after I had finished that degree. So so really, you know, overall, both books, talk about my strategies, discipline and consistency is on making payments and just being as proactive as I can to reduce my debt. And I've continued that with more of my mortgage, continue that with car payments, but again, it's just looking at debt and how to reduce it as quickly as possible. And I know not everyone's in the same situation me you know, you could have health care costs, you could have kids. I mean, I get all that you live in a bigger city. I understand all that. I still think there's ways to To reduce costs and reduce debt astronomically, and again, student loans impact what 50 million people in this country, you're gonna have to deal with eventually. So what   Michael Hingson ** 40:11 are some of the things and suggestions that you might have for people as far as getting their student debt down and relieved?   Matthew Burr ** 40:18 Yeah, you know, and again, I think consolidation is always an option, you have to be careful that you don't want to spend money on a consolidation company, making sure the interest rates are as low as possible. It really comes down to me need versus one right in in life? And again, do you need it or just wanted? And again, I think you've got to look at that. Do you really need Netflix? Probably not. Do you need an iPhone every year? No, probably not. Do you need a brand new car? You're probably not right. I mean, so, you know, do you need Starbucks or dunkin donuts every day? Can you brew your own coffee and save yourself? 345 $6 a day, those things add up. And I've had people on Fox Business argue those things, but okay, well multiply a $6 cup of coffee by seven by 52. That's a bunch of money you can put towards your student loans right there. I mean, at all, I never thought of it like that. Well, I do. I mean, so again, it's like, you know, those are things that absolutely can impact long term. And the other thing I always tell people is always make more than a minimum payment. I don't care if it's $10, or $20, or $5. Keep that interest absolutely as low as possible from accruing and you're hitting principal, absolutely. Every time. I mean, and I've carried that over to my mortgage, to 30 year loan. And I, you know, again, with the mortgage, I think I paid roughly 65,000 off in two years, it was about a $220,000 mortgage on maybe 250. I don't remember exactly what it was. But I'm to the point now, where it's, the majority of the money is now on my payments, the big payment is going towards principal, I mean, so I've completely destroyed that interest model with my mortgage payment as well, because I've just taken it, and I make additional payments every month to offset the interest at that point. And so if you look at it like that, I think you're gonna look at it differently. The other thing I did with student loans originally, other really upset me actually is watch the interest accrue every week. And so when I was at my max, back in 2012, I think it was $100 a week accruing an interest and I mean, I'm like, the only people making money or banks in the government. Like that was it like I saw that I'm like, game over man, like, you know, I'm gonna make is I'm gonna pay this off as quick as I can. Because I didn't want other people making money off my money at that point. And so I've taken that competitive Stan with any debt I've gotten at that point. So   Michael Hingson ** 42:47 and it's, it's worked really well. So it's all about making more payments or making higher payments and not just certainly paying minimums. Yeah, reduce,   Matthew Burr ** 42:56 I mean, you know, look at your highest interest rate, knock it down, and you continue to do that. And I think again, people will get out of debt set goals, reward yourself, discipline yourself and be consistent and you absolutely will be successful with with debt, you know, debt reduction, and really anything in life as well, like I've talked about. So yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 43:16 we went through, we went through some periods of that and we had a fair amount of credit card debt just because of different things like buying wheelchairs for my wife, she was in a chair her whole life. So buying power chairs that she needed, that insurance didn't cover. And so we had some pretty hefty credit card bills. But she worked really hard at we both did, but she did most of the financial management, she worked really hard to make higher than minimum payments by far to the extent that she was able to pay everything completely down. So now the only credit card we have credit card debt we have is what we have in any given month. And I have she has passed away so it's now just me and the next step that I took was that every month the entire bill from the previous month is automatically paid so I've set it so that that will automatically happen so we don't have any credit card debt which I'm really happy about course the banks are always sending me nice, lovely invitations to open a new credit card or do other things with our credit cards and even our mortgage company wants us to take out an equity loan. Very nice and generous of them. Yeah,   Matthew Burr ** 44:35 I got an ad I got an ad like that the other day from you know from my mortgage company as well. I'm like, Oh, this must be the annuity I get I get it. Well, what I get now with my credit card companies is, you know, rollover a balance you get at 0% interest for 12 or 24. Yeah, so I see I get those I mean constantly an email and in the mail but yeah, I did see the home equity first time I've seen the whole manually email like that ever. I'm like, Okay, this is a new one I guess I'm gonna get so yeah, not I don't need it right, I try to pay for everything in cash obviously put as much towards retirement when I can. And just again, just keep costs as low as I possibly can and live a, I would say an economically, I don't want to say frugal, but just, you know, I guess a balanced life, the best way to put it so?   Michael Hingson ** 45:24 Well, yeah. And I know for, for me, we've worked. And when Karen was alive, we both worked really hard at it, but we work to, as I said, keep all the payments down and don't spend a lot of money that I need to, I do use the credit card for some expenses, again, but they get paid off at the end of the month, which is the big important part. It's just easier to use the credit card because I'm not going to write checks. And so using the credit card and the other part about it is there isn't an interest charge. There is a financial charge, they still get they get some money, but it is not what it would be otherwise if the credit card amounts the balance is increased a great deal.   Matthew Burr ** 46:11 Yep. Yeah, no, same thing. I use it I get the airline miles and do some traveling. So it works out well for me. Same Same Same exact thing with me with American Express. So yeah, absolutely. What I   Michael Hingson ** 46:20 love is listening to the flight attendants on airlines, we use American a lot, and they're always talking about get the new American Airlines, whatever. Credit card MasterCard or Visa card, and you'll get 70,000 bonus miles and all that what they don't tell you in all these lovely presentations is the interest rate on the card. Yeah. And,   Matthew Burr ** 46:48 like 25% Yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 46:49 I'm sitting there going, I would want to do that. Why now? I suppose the the argument could be made? Well, if you're paying it off every month, then you don't worry about that. But still, it's it's a lot of money. They they definitely get it from you   Matthew Burr ** 47:06 know, yeah, in one way or the other. I mean, and then you've got the annual fee stuff that they'll hammer you on certain cards, too. Yeah. And   Michael Hingson ** 47:13 the American Airlines cards are one of those where there's, after the first year, there's always a fee. So you know, it's good not to have to do that. Well, so you wrote two books on student loans. Why to? What did what did one not have that the second one needed to have? Yeah,   Matthew Burr ** 47:28 you know, I mean, the first one, the first one, how I paid off 74,024 months really focused on that first master's degree. And then I went back to school, I met the second one's really focused on the NBA the 117 and 33 months. And really, we kind of evolved the slaying the student loan dragon as a title for the second one, all three are on Amazon, you know, if anyone's interested, but, you know, it really goes into more detail more specifics about the process, I undertook to pay off that, you know, huge amount of money in really under in under three years. And I think it's a modified version of the first one. But it goes into much more specifics about the discipline about the process and about, I mean, and also some background on looking at student loans. You know, when you're, you know, high school students, so there is there is some information on there, what to look for the fine print, the interest rates, you know, it definitely covers a little bit more ground, I think, than the first one did. So, isn't this   Michael Hingson ** 48:28 all really about fiscal discipline discipline, though, and it can be tough, but isn't that what it's really about? You've got to be disciplined enough to do it. Yeah. 100%   Matthew Burr ** 48:38 Yeah. And I mean, it's discipline and consistency. I mean, every, every day or every week, I was making payments, I mean, so you know, again, it's it's that process of just being consistent and really kind of, again, managing your money so you're able to make those payments every week and not in keeping that interest rate down. I mean, that's absolutely what it comes down to is flexibility and discipline. Yes, we   Michael Hingson ** 49:03 have a car loan my wife had a wheelchair accessible van, we sold it back to the company that we bought it from, so that it would go to somebody else in a chair who could use it but I needed a vehicle that I could be driven around in rather than relying on other people. And so one of the things that we did with this new car loan is I make payments that are larger than then the payment that is due every month on it. So it's interesting to see them get to the to each month see that there's this extra like 75 or $100 on the on the loan. And I wonder sometimes if they really know what to do with that, or they must think I'm crazy.   Matthew Burr ** 49:46 Yeah, and it's funny you say that because the last vehicle I purchased us vehicle I think and when I turned mine and I had a $25,000 loan on the vehicle, you know and by I was able to pay that off in about six or seven months. And I was again, I calculated, I ended up paying about $193 In the interest and maybe 12 cents. So it was it was one of those things where I just continue to hit it, obviously, monthly payment, and then hit it with smaller payments throughout the month to reduce the accrual of interest at that point, it's the same thing I've done with my mortgage, if you hit it with smaller payments, it's not calculated much interest at the end of the day. So yeah.   Michael Hingson ** 50:27 And that's a really good piece of advice to make those additional small payments.   Matthew Burr ** 50:33 That's what they call the snowflake method when it comes to debt repayment. So Well,   Michael Hingson ** 50:39 you mentioned failing forward. What does that mean?   Matthew Burr ** 50:43 Yeah, I mean, basically, you know, I think it we came back to what we're talking about looking at, you know, looking at mistakes as opportunities, learning lessons, I think it's that emotional intelligence component of, you know, getting through kind of getting through the storm, recognize you made a mistake, recognizing that there, there was something that you might need to do differently and reevaluating. And I think learning from it and moving forward and being better growing from those experiences. That's exactly what failing forward is. And I think that if you take that approach, nobody's perfect. I think that there's always opportunity to evolve in anything we do, whether personally, professionally, financially, spiritually, health, wise, wellness, whatever it is, you know, a, again, looking at for those opportunities and becoming disciplined enough and consistent enough to learn from that.   Michael Hingson ** 51:33 It gets back to playing out now, self analysis, and being willing to look at yourself and what you're doing. And we, for some reason, that is just so hard for people to do, I think it's a behavior that we learned, and we've been taught. And we don't necessarily learn introspection nearly as much as we should. And it's such a valuable thing. And it doesn't take a lot of time on any given day to do it. Although if you meditate and spend more time on it, that's okay. But the whole idea is to really be introspective and think about what you're doing in the course of the day. And the more of it you do, the tougher and the more developed, if you will, the mental muscle becomes, which is I think, a very important thing. Yeah,   Matthew Burr ** 52:19 and again, and I related back to one of the things I related back to when I talked to leadership, and they're like, you know, these employees don't want to work. They you know, they're lazy, there's turnover and and and one thing I say to people is, have you looked in the mirror and and asked yourself what you're not doing. I mean, it's that exact component, not everyone is lazy. Most people want to come to work and do a good job and they want a fair day's wage and things like that. That's that psychological contract. But what are you not doing to disengage people or to engage? I mean, it's, it's, it's that simple, like, look in the mirror and say, What can I do better? As a leader? Where can I improve? That's going to help this this organization and asking some of those questions to employees? Where do you see what do I need to do? I mean, you know, again, it's look in the mirror, I guess what it comes down to is, you know, take a take a deep dive into yourself and say, What can I do to get better today? I mean, and really, that's what if you improve? One percentage day 200 365%, at the end of the year, that's, that's a hell of an improvement, in my opinion. So yeah,   Michael Hingson ** 53:24 by any by any standard, and it makes sense to do it. And we all want to try to improve and learn. I wish more would do it. We're, we're a country today. And and I know it's not just the US, but of course, this is where we are. So it's most visible. But we're in such a fractured world, and nobody wants to listen to anyone and nobody wants to do anything except criticize everyone else but themselves. Yeah,   Matthew Burr ** 53:50 no, I agree. And I think it's self accountability. I mean, and again, I've made mistakes and consulting. And I'll own that. I mean, I take ownership of everything in my life, I'll look at every situation, I'll own it. And, you know, and and recognize that, maybe, you know, maybe, I mean, and I do need to get better. I mean, and I'll tell people look, I need, you know, there are things that I still need to look to work on and reflect on. And I'll share that with people during training and say, I'm absolutely not perfect. There's things I'm continuing to work on myself. And it takes, you know, it's an emotional intelligence that it's that next level, look at life to recognize that and once you can get into that mindset of continuous evolution, I again, I think that society would be a whole lot better off I think the workplace would absolutely evolve and people would be much I think, much happier and in the things they're doing in life as well. So much more peace. So   Michael Hingson ** 54:39 so how do you overcome challenges? I mean, you face them. Needless to say, you sound like everything is perfect, but I know that you like any of us have challenges.   Matthew Burr ** 54:47 Yeah, I mean, again, I mean, I think that it's, you know, one thing I've done is it's like you're putting in places and you're put in storms to make you stronger, right? I mean, if you can't handle pressure you don't want Success. And so, you know, it's one of those things where I look at every situation it puts me under pressure and stress is a growth opportunity, and what can I learn from it? How can I be effective? And how can I make a difference? And so, no, I mean, you know, my life definitely is not perfect, you know, again, and there's always things to look at and do differently. And I think it's just one of those things that you do some self reflection, you do some meditation, you're thankful for what you have the blessings to you you've been given and just continuing to move forward. Take it one day at a time.   Michael Hingson ** 55:32 Yeah. Well, what do you think the biggest mistakes in life that people make are? That was grammatically not a very good sentence? But what do you think the biggest mistakes people have? Are Making human life?   Matthew Burr ** 55:45 I think they think you're listening to people's opinions. I think people get caught up in that drama, that gossip and kind of like, let them direct your life. It's your world, you shape it the way you want it. You know, I again, I think that they, they get caught up potentially, you know, it, that's a big component. My opinion is definitely listening to people and taking advice from people that maybe haven't walked in your shoes. I think they're not learning from mistakes, either. I think they continue to make the same mistakes. It's kind of the definition of insanity. Right? Doing the same thing over and over. So, you know, and again, I think that emotional intelligence a lot of times with is another component of of just not doing that self reflection and taking ownership. I think if more people took ownership of their own life and their own mistakes, their own responsibility, you'd see a world of difference. I mean, again, you have a failing business, you're not you can't blame the government. You can't blame Congress, you can't blame the president. What are you doing to make that business successful? I mean, why do you have turnover? I mean, and again, there are questions that you need to ask yourself as an individual as a leader. I mean, I'm relating it back to the workplace, but it works personally as well, in a bad relationship. What do you need to change at that point? I mean, those are all things, people have to take a deep dive and look at and see what things can be different. So yeah, I mean, accountability. And I think just not learning from mistakes and not growing when they need to grow. So.   Michael Hingson ** 57:16 So what advice would you give to people who are listening to this going forward?   Matthew Burr ** 57:22 You know, again, I think you've got to take risks in life that no risk, no story, you know, I think that there's always there's always pain and growth, I mean, you have to expect it, whenever you try something new whenever there's a challenge, you're going to feel pain, I mean, I'm just accustomed to pain at this point. And and it's just one of those things that it is what it is. And again, I think that if you start taking personal accountability and ownership of the path you're on the sky's the limit set challenging goals and and try to achieve those goals. And if you make mistakes and fail, fail forward, learn from it and move on and get better, I mean, just continue to look for those 1% improvements, you know, be thankful for what you've got and just focus on what you can control one day at a time.   Michael Hingson ** 58:06 And I don't think there's any better advice than anybody could take from this or any of the podcasts that we do I really appreciate you taking the time to be here with us and going through all of this and giving us some some good thoughts and good ideas on I know I'm taking away some some things from this I haven't made little payments during the month on loans but I by may do more of that with the car and that'll be kind of fun. So I'll have to look at that.   Matthew Burr ** 58:34 I get that definitely not that's always a good thing.   Michael Hingson ** 58:37 Yeah, well that's that's a logistics issue to to do too. But I will work on it and that'll be kind of fun. Well, I want to thank you again for being here. I really appreciate it. I hope that all of you listening out there enjoyed it. Matthew if people want to reach out to you since you do coaching consultant, among other things, and so on. How do they do that? Yeah,   Matthew Burr ** 58:56 Burr consulting. llc.com is the website you're able to put in a request from my website? Matthew m a t t h e w at Burr consulting llc.com? Is my   Michael Hingson ** 59:06 email and Burr is B u r r   Matthew Burr ** 59:07 are Yep, Burr B u r r correct. Yep. LinkedIn, Matthew W Burr, Twitter at Burr consulting. And then I have a Facebook page as well. So contact information is pretty easy to find and always happy to answer questions related to coaching or HR I was happy to support anyone so   Michael Hingson ** 59:24 super well. Thanks for being here with us. Thank you all for listening. I love to hear your thoughts about today's episode. Love to hear what you think about Matthew and and everything that we're doing. And of course, if there's anything you'd like to see me do differently or other guests that you'd like to see us have on. We always appreciate introductions and your support and your help with that. Wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating we value that very highly and would really be very grateful if you would give us a five star rating. You can reach me easily enough at Michael m i c h a e l h i at accessibe A c c e s s i b e.com Or go to our podcast page, www dot Michael hingson h i n g s o n.com/podcast. And listen to our podcasts there and or wherever you want to listen to podcasts, or watch us on Youtube. But please give us those ratings. We appreciate it. And again, one last time, Matthew, I really appreciate your time and value, all the insights and information that you've given us today. So thank you very much.   Matthew Burr ** 1:00:27 Absolutely man, thank you for appreciate you having me on and always, always a pleasure to be on a podcast. So thank you as well thank you to your listeners.   Michael Hingson ** 1:00:40 You have been listening to the Unstoppable Mindset podcast. Thanks for dropping by. I hope that you'll join us again next week, and in future weeks for upcoming episodes. To subscribe to our podcast and to learn about upcoming episodes, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com slash podcast. Michael Hingson is spelled m i c h a e l h i n g s o n. While you're on the site., please use the form there to recommend people who we ought to interview in upcoming editions of the show. And also, we ask you and urge you to invite your friends to join us in the future. If you know of any one or any organization needing a speaker for an event, please email me at speaker at Michael hingson.com. I appreciate it very much. To learn more about the concept of blinded by fear, please visit www dot Michael hingson.com forward slash blinded by fear and while you're there, feel free to pick up a copy of my free eBook entitled blinded by fear. The unstoppable mindset podcast is provided by access cast an initiative of accessiBe and is sponsored by accessiBe. Please visit www.accessibe.com . AccessiBe is spelled a c c e s s i b e. There you can learn all about how you can make your website inclusive for all persons with disabilities and how you can help make the internet fully inclusive by 2025. Thanks again for Listening. Please come back and visit us again next week.