Live Coaching with Dr. Body Mind Soul

Welcome body mind soul seekers to part two of the knowing when to quit miniseries. This is the second and final episode like this, and we will be going back to our normal content next week. But I do feel like it's been important for me to share with you my process and my relationship with modern medicine through these podcasts, because it does impact and influence my work. So on today's episode, I'm sharing a personal coaching session I had with Sarah on her podcast, knowing when to quit, and we explore my internal conflicts, limiting beliefs. And I wrote frustrations that have been keeping me stuck, unsure whether I want to or need to quit my medical career to fulfill what I feel is my mission over here at Dr. body mind soul. So with no further ado, I hope you enjoy this very real and very raw episode, there are tears and I will touch base with you here all next week with our normal episodes. I hope you enjoy

Welcome back to the doctor body mind soul podcast. My name is Dr. Jude, and this is a podcast which explores how we can integrate modern medicine and alternative therapies to help you get the holistic health care that you deserve. I will be speaking to healers and seekers, researchers and authors who will share their experiences and the evidence to help guide us all to Holistic Health. Let's do this.

Hi, everyone, and welcome to know when to quit. I'm Sarah Wyler. I'm a TEDx speaker, coach and creative, multi passionate, and I've spent the last six years fascinated with our relationship to quitting. In this podcast, I invite people to share moments they wanted to quit, how they navigated the uncertainty and what it taught them about what's important to them. Wherever you're at with your own quitting decisions, I hope you can keep choosing the people, places and projects that really light you up. Thank you for being here. On today's show, we welcome back the lovely Dr. Judy Scalia who we heard last week sharing about her decision to quit the medical profession. In this week's episode, you're going to hear a coaching conversation between me and Jude where we explore this final decision to take herself off the medical register. This is an unedited conversation. So you're here the whole process we went through. And I just want to thank Jude again for being so open to have this conversation and for letting us in to the inner workings of this decision. Enjoy the episode. Holy

Sadie.

Sadie.

to poor hygiene,

hi, Sara.

Oh, it's so nice to see, well, actually, I can't see a video for the Internet dimension. But um, yeah, so thank you for being my coaching client today. And I'm wondering, we've got about half an hour, what would be a really good outcome for you for this session?

Think it's it's it's clarity. And although I think you know, as the last few days have gone on, I do feel clearer, I think I would like to understand a little bit more about pros and cons. So I can make a decision that feels informed knowing exactly what I'm going to be giving up or what I'm going to be moving to. And so I'm just feeling so I feel grounded in whichever decision I make.

What I'm hearing from that is like your body's made the decision or your guts made the decision but your head needs to catch up.

I think it's becoming become increasingly clear. The decision I'm being called to me. And it feels difficult and it feels big. And my mind needs to understand. Understand, yeah, that's totally that's that feels really true. Yeah.

And what is the decision?

The decision is whether to leave medicine. But it feels like that could be quite an easy decision to make because actually to leave medicine or not to go back to my job as an a&e doctor feels easy I could do that without anyone even knowing that because I freelance so it's not that it's actually coming off the GMC The General Medical Council register and I think there's pros and cons of doing that. And it feels very big to do that. And

a lot of the way that I work in coaching is, is being in the body so I'm wondering when you think of leaving the GMC What do you notice comes up in your body

abject fear and freedom and those are the two kinds of things that I feel I'm flipping and flopping between

so you should we look at the fear and just give it some space. How would that feel?

Yeah, that feels important.

So I'm going to guide you through a short exercise and just the invitation to see what comes up and at any point you can say you want to get out of it. Okay. So where in your body do you feel the fear? Where does it live

across my chest and in my throat the base of my throat

your throat and your chest

shoulders on the shoulders Yeah.

Where does Where do you want to start where should we look up first?

My throat better my throat

great so just inviting you to get curious about what this fear looks like in your throat any colors any textures? What is it

well as we're speaking I just noticed tears I'm

just allowing them to be here

yeah

fear feels heavy see sort of bars like bars like a jail

jail yeah um

notice that the frog in my throat there's a frog in my throat which is like going up into up into my throat

just allowing that to be there giving it some space

do you need to say

anything up like no, it's in the back of my mouth.

This is the boss or something different now.

It feels like a like a heavy golf ball. We go through Yeah. It's like, I want to vomit it up. I want out. I just I know It's just I just burped so like it's just like wanting to come out

and what is this It

feel like that represents the weight of actually being on the register like that's what it feels like it feels like restricting it feels like it's blocking my voice yeah I want to out I want to feel free of it but that just feels very scary

and how would it feel to hold that golf ball just in your hand so keeping it near you but just you Can you visualize having having it in your hand

part of me like feels gleeful part of me feels relieved that it's out of my body or to me feels sadness or to me feels fear

part of me wants to throw it away and be wants to place it somewhere special to honor it for what it's given me

yeah, what has it given you

still may security safety currency and the world of work status identity

How is it to acknowledge all of those things

terrifying terrified to leave that behind and make the question

Do I really want that? Don't want to leave that behind? Does that is that the right thing to do?

So when you were talking about your pros and cons list this sounds like this could be some of the pros of stayin yah, yah yah yah

So, what do you want to do with this golf ball for now?

Think I want to

I think keep it in my hand. Yeah. What does it give you to have it in your hand

the choice art having decided to give it away still gives me the opportunity to keep it if I want it to

and it's a wait. There's a cost to the cost.

So, what is the cost?

The cost is the cost is freedom, freedom to say to speak my truth to serve for My truth

What do you notice happens in your body as you share those words

just took a deep breath

I felt like my chest open. As you were talking like this spaciousness.

spaciousness. I think that's a really, I think that that does reflect what it gives me an actually what I'm too afraid to say is like, like what lies beyond what lies beyond now it's like, feel like it's the life like like endless possibility and like, life beyond my wildest dreams like that spot lays beyond here because actually, what I'm doing is is being courageous. So I'm using courage to bleed from my heart rather than my head. I very much know that that's my colleague

what would you need to grieve if you were to follow your freedom?

Think comfort, I've been afforded real comfort and being aimed at the security and its protection, security and protection that a job title hits me. And also the setup that I have allows me to work when I want.

So it's a it's a, it's a comfortable arrangement. But actually there is discomfort with that, too. Like, there is discomfort with that too. There is a cost.

And I'm also hearing a real a belief here read and I checking with this, whether this resonates but that it's either comfort or freedom. It's either security or you getting to use your voice. I wonder what it could look like to have comfort and security and structure in this new paradigm in this new way of working

well, there's inherently not those things because I'm stepping into the unknown. So it's, it's really stepping into the unknown. It's taking that leap feels like I'm taking a leap into the unknown. And I actually do truly trust myself. Actually. I actually really trust in myself. I trust in what's coming next and I trust in taking the leap and I trust in using my courage I'm no I do know that those are all things that I need to do. So all things I need to do. And I actually have I am there's just an incredible amount of grief built an incredible amount of grief and loss of certainty loss in a loss of security and loss of knowing of the next step and a knowing and a way that I've always done it. It's A total total shift which feels inherently yeah Scary It's really scary and feels less necessary

so I'm hearing from you that it's just such a new way of working there's a so many unknowns with this but yet there is a known that you need to do this way

Yeah,

that's the known the known is I need to do the unknown

you Yeah. The known is that I need to step into the unknown i i do know that Yeah. And part of me that just really wants to cling to yeah, there's part of me that just wants to do it in a safe way and like keep my foot in yet I think I know I need to put two feet out like it's just like knowing and just have avoided doing this for a long time. Yeah.

Sounds like you're so ready. I have this image of you about to jump out of a plane or do a bungee jump and you've been standing on the edge and you already to go

that's such a funny image because a couple of years ago, I drew where I was. And I was like, standing with a backpack with all my tools in it had every tool and I was ready and I was ready to step off the cliff into this basin of chaos, which was my creativity cauldron.

And so yeah, I feel like I've been gathering all the tools and everything I need to me there needs I have and I'm left thinking, do I need to do I need to jump like do I need to lead do I need to have everything is that necessary? Is that sensible? Do I need to is there really restriction? Or is it just in my head?

What does it mean about you to be someone that jumps?

Right class silly brave manifester? This is what is needed. I know that

what was the sigh

I saw an image of you know, he represents like really sensible balance that he would never do that. Never do it never just like leap plan. You know, like you weigh things up and I guess is what I'm trying to do. I'm trying to make things up like what's the cost? I feel like the cost of staying on the register is being unable to be fully expressed to me. Follow my dreams follow my heart. And that's actually my calling.

What do you have to give yourself permission for here?

Oh to not have all the answers

to follow my heart after I have to give myself permission to have the courage to choose courage. Do you do it

Ah This feels so painful

stay with this this seems like the crux of it

I know I must choose courage I have compassion compelled to choose courage

and you only have to you only need to use courage when there is the unknown otherwise you don't need courage it's choose what feels pain knowing that

that's what I have to do. And in order to do that

feels like just a huge leap. Yeah. Which feels really terrifying

no leaps are terrifying and I, I wonder like whether it has to be a leap like as you talk I hear this is big imagery of you know, it's quite dramatic of like, jumping and leaping and like, I suppose just just as an experiment like what would it be like to go gently into this to be gently courageous to go in a way that felt I don't know. Just what would what would be other ways to transition into this new face

and also feel free to reject that if that doesn't resonate. I just wanted to offer it as a as an experiment.

I feel like in some ways I have been edging ever closer Yeah, a while so it feels like and I'm I guess I'm wondering how can I do it gently but still do it

and if you connect with the feeling of gentleness in your body what do you notice about your posture or any parts of your body that feel kind of activated by gentleness

Yeah, feels soothing your suit feel suit

is there a metaphor here for how it feels?

Any imagery that comes up

just images, like just someone putting their arm around me I guess like around my neck or my shoulder Yeah.

From this gentle place, what do you know about medicine and your next step? I think I wonder whether I can look into ways to like suspend, suspend

suspend membership or what it takes to come off it and then go back on it like what would that look like? Like, at the moment? I feel like it feels impossible to go back on the register. What would it look like to come off?

Can I go back on can I suspend your vote that look like?

Do you think having that information?

I think that that information would help you make an informed decision. feel more grounded.

Make me feel more grounded and deciding whether it's something I had to do twice stent I have to do it

I know I have to do it no I have to do it it's just that I

feel like my ego is just laying on

Yeah

Yeah, us find it really difficult is to let go of the security blanket but the security blanket is also like a weighted blanket

What do you want to say to the ego right now if you can kind of imagine turning towards it and being in dialogue

it does feel like a day feels like a death of this part of me. So kind of understand. Understand their desire to cling on. It's like clinging on for its survival and every other way that we've known how to operate in this life.

But I also know that there's something way beyond what I can see. Waiting beyond waiting.

I mean, that's huge. It makes a lot of sense why this feels so, so tricky. You know, the feeling that whole part of you might die.

Such a huge partner died, the only way I've known to operate in this world for half my life.

And I wonder what parts of it you want to take with you? You know, which there's going to be a big bit that will die. But are there any parts of this this life or this identity that you you want to bring with you?

Yeah, there's lots there is lots of ways there's lots of parts that I want to bring with me.

Actually think you'll just make it by leaving, I will be able to be better. I want to better at the role on a more

fundamental level. So I actually, like want to embody it even more and more deeply.

I feel myself with restriction. Here on the register holds, I'll be able to embody the role of the doctor more fully. And more, more fully.

Yeah. I hear so much freedom as you shall that. Yeah, like a relief, almost like oh, they get to do it now. Yeah,

totally. Totally. Yeah. Like giving myself permission to fully express and actually serve people powerfully. Without feeling the fear of being struck off. Doubt like that, just as that's holding me back from fully doing what I want to do. And what I want to do I think is super powerful.

Yeah

and what would you be saying no to by stepping into this new powerful Doctor role?

No

to only offering pharmaceutical solutions to my patients No. To

actually like no to the no to working in an apartment anymore. Which feels actually really energetically. Mal aligned. Yeah. At this point I'm saying yes to using evidence I'm saying yes to referring to science, I'm saying yes to considering the guidelines. I'm saying yes to looking at other healing modalities that may be effective and saying yes to investigating getting to the root cause of things. I'm saying yes to working powerfully with patients, helping them get to the root cause. Saying yes to inviting dialogue and, and looking for other ways, alternative ways to consider our health and our healthcare system.

So much energy as you share that I was getting the image of you like a horse kind of bolted to a wall or something and then being set free to be able to like, roam all the fields.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that feels true. And I'm left wondering, you know, why is it so difficult to entertain ourselves? Or why is why do I find it so difficult to feel like, before we were talking about letting go, like, there was just so much, I was like, holding back my sobs out huge.

Well, this is deep conditioning, being part of institutions. Being part of that fear based work environment where we the fear of being struck off the fear that we can't do things not Oh, you know, this. This is a this is, you've been doing this for 20 years. And there's that it's part of an institution that's been around a lot longer and a society that works in this way. It's radical to even be considering another way. And it's courageous. And you are courageous. Dude. You're so courageous. And you know you the word you said it's necessary

but be kind to yourself as you find this hard, because this is this is an unraveling, or that unchaining really from a from a certain way of doing things. That's all you've known.

We're coming to the end of our coaching time, and I, you know, it may be that there are still questions, but I wonder what, what is clearer? And what are you left with after this short session.

I do feel clearer in what I need to do.

And it may be that doing a bit of extra research, helps settle the ego which may feel gentler. And that's okay. And this part of the process is hard. And it's emotional. And those grief And there's uncertainty. And there's support and a sense of trust and knowing and excitement and freedom beyond that as well.

You know, I think what you just said that about like, this is part of it and mistake expecting it to be a bit difficult. Rather than asking what's wrong with you finding it hard? Yeah, this is this is a grief This is a loss. This is a you know, you're you're a butterfly. You're in the chrysalis. It's like, Ah, really uncomfortable. Yeah. Because this is a big change.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah,

that's true. Yeah, I wouldn't know how it would feel I wouldn't know how well what would change if you saw this as some as part of the process

it really allows me actually to focus the next few weeks on supporting myself through the process and allowing the grief to be felt allowing these emotions to come through actually gives me it gives me some Yeah, it gives me a real focus to

understanding there's a lot of emotion that needs to be moved allows me to sort of seek supports in order to do that.

So I do feel Yeah, this this need this this grief needs need space, I need to give it that space

and I'm in the perfect place to do that

and when it feels like the right time, you know, we often talk about on this podcast, the beautiful endings. They wonder, like, you know, to start thinking about how you do want to honor all of the wonderful things that you've got from this part of your career. How you want to honor celebrate let go thank you that's you know, to drop in fee really isn't inquiry but I just wanted to offer that as something that you could put some creative energy and attune some real intention into like what if this could be joyful and and magical even the ending

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Real celebration letting go and welcoming in

like an initiation almost I mean, it's an imagining you just just seeing you in Bali, like dancing and having all your friends near you. And just like it's a wedding or some kind of like this new bed?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

You're doing all the right things. I mean, being with this grief and being with this, yeah, it's a monumental decision. But it doesn't mean it's the wrong decision. Just because it's big. Just means it needs a bit more time probably. And a bit more love and care.

Knowing that you've actually faced a similar question does help in some way. Like I feel you must have been through something really similar? Yeah.

Yeah, I mean I think it probably was a slightly different context in that I hadn't been teaching as long. And I can always go back to it. So I wasn't having to let go of my quick teaching qualification. But the feeling or I definitely felt the anguish of whether it was the right thing to do. And probably similarly to you, the value I was wanting to honor was freedom and an authentic expression, very trapped in how I could express myself in a school and the rules and the structures. It felt very limiting and very draining for me. And so I really was choosing, like, a life that felt more more useful. And, and yet, the kind of big, I guess, the like, the paternal fear was that I was like, abandoning doing good. That was like, what came up for me? Like, is this selfish? Is this? This is what we're Do I not care about these children anymore. There was a lot of that, like beating myself up for that. So yeah, I think there were, there was definitely a feeling of, there were definitely challenges. And yeah, I think it didn't feel as irreversible, but that I'm hearing it is feeling for you.

Yeah, it's feeling irreversible. Coming off the red coming off the register feels existential feels like irreversible. And I'm not sure how true that actually is. I'm not sure how true that actually is. And maybe getting clarity on that will help to ease the fear of coming off it. But coming off it, I feel will allow me to fully express myself and actually fully serve without the fear of being struck off. And I'd like to try that on. I want to try that.

Well, I mean, I think that they just sound like one takeaway from this conversation is just a very practical one to like, get that information about how big is this something you could just do for 510 years? And then you've always got the option? No, that might give you some information.

Yeah.

And I yeah, I just want to offer you like, Well, I suppose just what I'm hearing from you is this. I just see you like turning towards this new life and all that you want to offer and all that you want to express. But it's like you have to break up first with medicine in the way you've done it and you can't have this new relationship yet or this new world. Before you've had that, like closing conversation or that, that honoring and thanking. So there's some like tending to do here, grief tending to the tool that it's bringing up? And yes, it's coming up through this. Am I on the register on or am I registered or not? But that's yeah, there's something there's something deep here around your identity. And

now yeah, that feels very true. That feels very true. Beyond the register it like, at that of material tied to the role of practicing medicine, but what added that's at its core, like something very existential and very, very tight into my identity. So yeah, it's, yeah,

I do think I need the season of TLC major to the major tending to, yeah,

so it's like your ego 17. You know, how is this going to be now? So it will say like, what's the relationship you want to have with medicine now? What's the kind of? Yeah, like, how would you want to interact with it? Like, what what? Maybe it just needs to know that you're not completely abandoning it forever or ignore it or like that it doesn't mean anything, you know, actually feeling like it's an inter relational thing. I don't know if that helps. I often think of like, it is a relationship. We have with these different parts of our lives and different projects and actually like honoring that and saying thank you. Being like, yeah, I am going on to do something new and exciting. And I love you and I still care about you. But this is something I need to do. This is the new phase.

Yeah, that does feel. Yeah, that does feel better. That does feel better.

What feels better about it feels

kinder. It feels. It feels kinder. It feels like it's still we can still be friends. And actually almost like, I heard Glennon Doyle say this on her podcast this week, like she was only able to forgive her ex husband when they got the divorce. Like it's almost like once you actually feel safe, out of the immediate relationship, you're actually able to almost like create this new relationship and find the love you had for it again, but from a safer distance. It doesn't feel Yes, so suffocating. feel suffocated. Yeah, really? Right now it feels it is suffocating is stopping my expression. And so I just want to move, I can just change the terms of our relationship. That does feel gentler. Yeah, thank you for that.

No, you're welcome. I think we can Yeah, because that's the thing if you're feeling suffocated, no wonder you just want to like jump, like, like, God just needs some space for me. But he's stopped following me around medicine. But actually being like, I really care about you. I've, you've been such a big part of my life. And I just, there's like a new phase I'm getting into but like, let's keep in touch. And, man, it's hard, like, Relationships are hard. And I think, I don't know, I always try and bring this into projects, because I think it helps. Yeah, it helps treat it with some a different quality of like, this has, it's a part of you. It's a maybe that yeah, this feels heavy in the complex there because there's this like, rejection of a part of you in the wanting to move on.

And I think what was feeling like unsure and I wanted to feel grounded from is absolutely not to leap out of panic. And like desperation for space. Because it was coming, it felt like it was coming from this like energy of panic, and suffocation. And like, needing to get out, like needing just to leap just to get away. Whereas actually, that doesn't feel like the energy I even want to be present to the new product. I do want to integrate like both sides, like a one to bow. The medical perspective. I do. It's part of me. And I want to bring that forth. So there is something around just like wanting to do this in a way that actually yeah, keeps the relationship good. I that's what I want to do. I want to keep the terms good. I want I want to work out how to do that. That's exactly that really feels so helpful. And so that feels like a huge relief.

I think that's what I was saying to you there. When I say it feels very dramatic. I've got it all changed. And I was like wow, like I think maybe that's why it was coming from a lake and need to jump like that's the only way I can do this is by like radically jumping and like, but actually what I'm hearing now is this like almost an adult grounded like spacious, respectful. You can still move into this new life, but oh, yeah, that's gonna be painful for that part of you that has worked really hard for all these years. And just yeah, like a respectful ending for you and that identity.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But it also actually allows the transition to be so much clearer, so much gentler. And actually bringing, like, yeah, it does feel a lot more adult, I think. I was feeling really panicky and ungrounded because I was feeling like I needed just to get out, get out, get out. But actually this way feels like oh, okay, how can I negotiate these terms? And how can I show up like, it feels a lot more grounded and adult and I actually even feel more empowered to go to the organizations I need. to go to to get information I need to get into, to how to like almost like do the divorce proceedings like what can I keep what? What can I keep? And what more can I not keep? And actually, like, how can I do this and in a way that actually is supportive across the board.

Wow, that sounds so grounded as each other. Yeah. Like such. Yeah, just like their options, and it can be on your terms it doesn't have because it was feeling very black and white. I felt like when you start out, I've got to get out. I've got to do it. But that's feels very scary. It's like, yeah, that is because it's coming from a place of fear. Yeah. So what are you we're gonna close very shortly, but like, what is your operating word? If it's not fear? When you as you're making this transition?

And operating word is? Negotiate. Yeah. Yeah, just feel like, what can I take? What can I leave? Let's work this out. Because there are things I want to take things I want to leave. And actually, that that's part of the whole new journey. Anyway. So that really works. Yeah, that feels so much better.

I love you're so courageous. And you're gonna bring so much Well, you already do. But I'm so excited for what you're going to bring. And I'm hearing that it's going to come from a really? Yeah, like grounded and mature place. of feeling like this is okay to do this as well. You're not abandoning anything. You're not abandoning yourself? It's like, yeah.

Like, I'm not like needing to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's like, okay, no, stop. Like, What? What? Yeah, like, how can I negotiate? Good divorce settlement? Like, what's, what do I need? What would I feel good coming out of this divorce where? Again, I'm coming from that place

conscious uncoupling. So I'm like,

that feels even better.

No, no, I think I can just see you supporting others with this as well. You know, actually having like, what if leaving medicine didn't have to be dramatic? And from like, a place of, I'm done. You know what? It's like having giving people choices like you are with all of them. You know, which human stuff you're doing. And Doctor buddy, my soul, like, there is I'm hearing like, this is about empowering people through choices in all parts of your life. When you're ill, but also in how you're doing this.

Yeah. Oh, gosh, yeah. That's so true. Thank you for that reflection, that feels very empowering. So yeah, thank you. So welcome. They came in wanting to feel more grounded about the pros and cons. And actually, it just feels so much more grounded about about, yeah, then next the next year that what the pros and cons are, and tied up in the pros along with me. So that feels yeah, that feels. Thank you so much.

Thank you for bringing such a, you know, it's such a personal and broad topic. I really appreciate your opening up and yeah, bringing this exploration I'm sure lots of people will be in similar situations, whether it's in medicine or other big careers. So yeah, appreciate you being being a kind of spokesperson for these big changes.

Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, when you're when you're in it, it feels hard. And it's it feels hard when you're really in the discomfort. I've got some I've got real empathy. I think now for those who say they've left corporate or they've left you know, yeah, big careers to follow their passion. And I feel like

yeah, I've got a new empathy for, for the fear that brings and encourage to myself and anyone else who's in a similar situation

of the drum, the beating of the drum. Drum.