Is Social Media Connecting Us Or Dividing Us More? With Dr. Josie Ahlquist - Encore

Welcome to diner talks with James. slide into the booth and let's have conversations we never want to end with friends. We never want to leave over food we probably shouldn't be

welcome to diner talks with James. I'm James friends. So excited to have you here. We got a hell of an episode we got the one and only Dr. Josie Ahlquist in the building. She loves when I put the emphasis on Doctor. That's not true. But either way. Really excited for you to meet her if you haven't already. She is brilliant and just super fun. And that's one of my favorite laughs also, but we'll see if I can make her laugh about that. But either way, we still have standards here friends. I know I missed one week but it's okay because we're back out here and we still got the top three. Top three. Let's go most of these are actually Josie inspired because she lives out in Los Angeles now. Which is a fun fact. Shout out to LA oh my god what you're from LA cool. Anyway, so here are my three favorite things to do whenever I go to LA judge me if you need to. First off. First off number three is I love to get dipping noodle ramen. I can't find it anywhere else in the country. It's probably some other places but LA has dipping noodle ramen where you actually they give you the the noodles in a separate bowl and you dip them into the broth and then pick them up. Sometimes the noodles are cold you eat them in the hot broth. It is delicious. For those of you ramen heads out there, that's called suka min ramen. Okay, getting fancy out. Look out suka mid. So next. Here's one of my favorite things about in general in general the west coast but la in particular, is that I grew up on the east and the East Coast, you got Dunkin Donuts, and then you got Krispy Kreme eventually now they've kind of all merged together, you can get them all around. But if you want donuts, you pretty much get them at one of those two places. There's some bakeries here and there. They make some decent doughnuts but I love it on the west coast because they just got Dunkin Donuts like two years ago, and they said these all these mom and pop all these Mom and Pop donut shops everywhere and I just freakin love them. And so I eat a lot of donuts in LA. And I'm very happy. Okay. As far as I'm concerned, the O in love is a donut. All right. And last but not least, here's a cliche thing that I love to do. But la the hustle the bustle the traffic, it's real. Okay. I don't know why I'm sitting in traffic at 2pm on a Saturday. Where's everybody going? Anyway, but my favorite place to drive is Mulholland Drive. I love getting up in those mountains. And driving up there in the canyons. It's absolutely stunning. I don't care if it's a cliche. It's beautiful, y'all. And it's really special. That's first top three top three next. Josie does a lot of stuff with social media. And we'll get into that in a little bit. But I thought it'd be fun if I took us way back to three old school internet facts about James. Okay, here we go. My first email address ever. My first email address ever was something like 7497635 two@compuserve.gmail.com This was before you could like pick your email address even you just got some random numbers. Okay, that happened next. My AOL Instant Messenger screen name did you have AOL Instant Messenger? If you did let me know what your screen name was in the chat. My friends don't make me be the only one out here. But my AOL Instant Messenger screen name was scuba putts. Scuba putts Tell your friends here's the thing. I wanted to be a marine biologist. So I love scuba diving. And then also Grumpy Old Men is it incredible movie and my best friend Kevin and I to this day still call each other putts. Yes, I know what putts means. We still call each other that okay, scuba putts. What was your AOL instant screen name? Don't come for me yet. All right. Yes. Okay. lisabeth ditzy baby 2107 I love it. Here's why I chose scuba putts also they no disrespect to you ditzy baby is that I didn't want one with numbers. I said no, James, you are original enough that you don't have to come up with one that has numbers. Scott if this is true, that's incredible. Scott. Scott's name was Elmo underscore he he love it. Anyway.

Alright, and last but not least, my MySpace page. This is old school MySpace. The actual and pretty much only MySpace as far as I'm concerned. regularly had songs from creed playing. That's right friends. I was a giant creed fan I've seen creed live. And I really liked creed celebrated their entire discography as a fact my friends, so shout out to creed out here next and last top three top three. Fun fact about Josie she is a tri atheletes Alright, she's a triathlete. So here are the top three things you do in a triathlon, run, swim and bike. Thank you so much, my friends. That's where tonight's top three, top three those were in the order that I would do them if I could, now but your boy ain't doing that. So let's jump in. Tonight's guest is Dr. Josie Ahlquist. And she is incredible. She is a social media researcher. She's a doctrine teacher. She's taught it Florida State still teaches at Florida State even though she lives in LA they're like now teach us in Florida to come on over. She's done a whole bunch of great work at Loyola Marymount University in the past as well. And she is just a brilliant mind. Now the work that she has done in social media has helped so many colleges and universities, their presidents, their vice presidents directors and whatnot, entering their journey of getting into social media so that they can use it as the tool is to meet students where at her work is incredible. And she is just so freakin smart and a ton to be around so my friends let's bring her out right now don't want and only dozy. Ahlquist

I have been laughing a lot.

That's perfect. What? A joke.

Oh my gosh, give a diner my friend.

Oh, my feet are hanging off the chair as if we were really there. Perfect. Perfect. My feet don't touch the ground in any chair. Yeah,

you describe yourself as fun size. Is that true?

You know, you got to embrace it. The first time I was told I was sure it was in third grade. And it blew my mind. I was so upset. I cried to my teacher who is like seven feet. I swear at least that's what he felt like in third grade. And he laughs at me he's like, but you are. And it was an existential crisis that I eventually had to accept.

Oh, how now? How long did it take you to get over? The thing that's like, Okay, I'm short. And let me just like when did you start embracing it? Did that happen pretty early on? Or were you like, trying to hold yourself on the bar in the closet being like, get longer?

Um, well, I mean, I would say through like elementary school, then it was just like, I'm just like, gonna ignore that because we're all still I felt like kind of small. But once I started to look around at my family, I was like, Yep, this is in the cards. We're all people.

Turns out genetics are a thing. Who know?

He is, I mean, getting later into high school. My dating patterns were pretty wild. Like, like your height? Minimum?

Tall, like 6364 and above? Yeah. What was it about being with someone that was that tall? That was intriguing to you. Ah, I don't really like I just want us to least I want us to average out to like the normal

athletics had something to do with it. And all this this idea of a strong ox football that I had in my mind. And then just like over and then I found the absolute opposite, even though he's an ox in other ways.

Facts that's awesome. That is a super fun fact that I did not know about you. And now here's the thing is that you grew up predominantly in Wyoming. And and the men out there cumberly. I mean, that's a it's a burly state. I would I mean, those are when you think about like, the tics of masculinity. I feel like a lot of us go to men in Wyoming that are out there rolling the rain, and they're riding the actual bull, not just the one that we're awkwardly doing on Beale Street in Memphis or something like that.

Yeah, we're working people, a hard workers. Yeah. I mean, there's obviously the challenge with that of not being connected with their feelings and how we get those out is we have fights. It was very common to see dads go out like fight each other at a baseball game. That happens everywhere. But I was like, Oh, look like Sam's dad's taking on whoever's dad today because of a bad look. literally fighting words. This is my dad didn't do that. He's a very gentle man.

Yeah, for sure. That's so fun. So they would literally go at each other. And now this is back in the day like is that is that like pre? I guess like pre guns, so to speak, like right now, like a lot of things escalate so quickly where all the sudden guns get drawn, right, or knives and stuff like that like, but that's like back in the day where, like, people just settled fight, they came out, they they, like, punch each other. And then they were like, we're at the bar later that night.

Now, I mean, guns is part of the culture of growing up, like I was certified in hunter safety. Like, I don't even remember that being an option in your toolkit of like self expression, because it was, it really was for recreation that, unfortunately, if we want to go a little dark, like where those have been used statistically, in Wyoming is for suicides. Which, you know, sorry, bringing it down. But

yeah, but also see previous comments honestly, about how men not being able to talk about their feelings, because they're supposed to keep it all inside, right. And then, I mean, but that's, that's the thing that play and when we think about why male suicide rates are so much higher than women's, a lot of it comes down with the a lot of it comes back down to that, right. This is our inability to externally process what we are dealing with.

Yeah, I mean, I was like in middle school asking for therapy. They're like, they're like, go see your counselor. I was like, Okay. La, everyone is a therapist. A year like Reiki? Oh,

yeah, yeah. Get your crystals out. Josie. For sure. Oh, you actually have Okay, great. I don't understand crystals. Maybe we'll get into those later. But thank you. Thank you. I'll try anything. So. So here's a question for you. You grew up in Wyoming, and you now live in the second largest city in the United States. And quite the opposite of I guess, maybe you would consider the opposite of Wyoming is Los Angeles, especially the version of Wyoming that most of us know about what you're just kind of really from movies and tumbleweeds and wild horses and whatnot. Right? Like, I didn't know much else about it. And, and so what is that switch been like for you? When did it happen? And was there was there a transition period? Or was it more like, I found my people?

Well, first, let me make sure that I like look out for my people, because anywhere I go, like, I don't know, some cab driver or colleague, they find out I'm from Wyoming and they look at me like I'm a unicorn like someone from Wyoming before like so there's lots of misconceptions of what it means to be from there. Even a small town and I mean, I would say those people will be with you through thick and thin like they'll bring the cat I mean, maybe this is like in Minnesota with you know, like Wisconsin kind of thing to like, they will be with you through thick, yucky stuff, right when the when ish hits the fan. But I knew I knew probably as early as middle school that like, it wasn't enough for me just I needed more things. I knew right away that it was I was surrounded pretty much by all white people that all kind of thought the same. And again, I was just seeing stuff on TV, we didn't have social media back then. And I was like, I want to hang out with those people. So I think that was that wasn't me putting the intention to move to LA because it was in the 80s and 90s where everything horrible in the world was happening here from the earthquakes to like major fires and riots and if anything I was saying I don't even want to visit California let alone buy a home in Los Angeles. So lesson learned never say never. And honestly LA is a hard city it's a working city for entertainment and a few other types of businesses and you really and maybe New York is the same way that you once you find good people like you really hold on to them that you can tell like okay, this is this is earthy MIDI person that just isn't trying to like get me for contacts or something even though they all mean well right but they're here to work. They're here to like network at a conference, but they do that every single day at coffee shops and grocery stores and that was a that was a it was really hard when I first moved here was I would just want to strike up a conversation with them. One. And it became, I quickly figured out like, Oh, I'm kind of being dismissed because I'm not in the industry or something. And I used to take it really personal. And it's like, no, it's just like me at NASA, right? I mean, not like I'm dismissing people, but it's just like a more focused type of connections that friendships still happen. Just looks different.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. When you're at those professional conferences, like, like a NASA for higher education professionals and stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, you zone in on what you're actually doing there. There's a purpose behind it. And I deeply felt that in New York as well, you hear that? Really, you hear that? A ton of that in DC, for sure. Some of those what I guess would be considered more transient cities, right? Where people are like, let's get in, let me chase these dreams. This is where I need to be who do you know, they'll send you either helping me climb the ladder, or you distracting me from the ladder? And, yeah, I can totally see that. But it's interesting, because I know, I mean, moving to New York, for me, moving to New York, it was, it was infectious to be a part of that. I loved the energy of it. And I love the idea of like, I'm around people who are getting it. And so like, I'm either going to get it also, and I got to bust my butt to do it, and keep up or I'm going to get trampled by get trampled by the crowd as they try to walk past me. And so I enjoyed being a part of that. But I also noticed another side of it in me, which is like, you're it's so much easier to compare yourself to others in that right. And in an environment that isn't like that you're comparing yourself to like, well, their lawns greener than mine, right? Or they have a bigger truck or they have, or their kids learned how to, I don't know, read earlier than mine, right? Like some of those kinds of things. Now, I don't know. I'm just your general what I'm assuming smalltown problems. But still, the comparison game is real. Have you felt that at all? With you? Like, did you get into some of those comparisons and stuff like that? Or is you're not necessarily, though you are entertaining, you're not necessarily in the entertainment business, right? You're an educator, by trade and by passion.

Well, to kind of relate it to LA and like who I am, like, some people love to go drive around fancy neighborhoods, or like who lives where to like, just like browse around Louis futon or whatever. And that just like, bro, I can't do it. Like, I'm competitive. And I'm like, I don't want to look at a thing that I can't have. Or I mean, just a lifestyle I wouldn't want anyway. So that was the other hard thing about LA like, literally, you would run into a celebrity. And you realize like, I sometimes I just want to pretend they just live in those boxes. Many of them are good people. But so to relate it to my work, so I moved out here still like I've met a boy. And that's why it was LA, I was gonna do the higher ed student affairs campus work, work. So that's pretty linear and clear. And that is how I was. I mean, how I grew up, like you get a job and you climb that ladder and do that thing. And then I do think it was influenced by being out here, this entrepreneur type of spirits. And And honestly, it's, it doesn't come naturally. And the comparison thing definitely is real. That's why it's great to have people like you in my corner to be like, Am I crazy? Like what am I doing?

I'm like, Yes, we're all crazy. Keep swimming.

Yeah, so yeah. I mean, even I tweeted today, I have a book coming out next week. And I'm like, up to my nose and imposter syndrome. I'm like, What are you doing? Like, so? Yeah,

yeah, that's a real step right that imposter syndrome is real, especially, especially when you run in certain circles or anything like that I had this experience where I had an opportunity to speak to a bunch of PhD wielding folks. And at a University in Pennsylvania, and I don't, I don't have a PhD, right, I have a master's. But the thing is, is that the people with PhDs have love to tell you just the difference between those two. And there's a big gap and, and it's true, it really is. It's a lot of work now in between those two levels, compared to a bachelor's and a master's in particular. And so, but so I rolled into that room and like what Who are you actually going to talk to you right now, you're definitely the dumbest person in the room because PhD equals brilliant in imposter syndrome language right? For me in that case, and it was so fascinating, how we I tried to have to navigate it and get over it and realize that you bring something to every single space that you walk into, but it's really tough to get around that barrier that you built that's way higher than it actually is in real life, huh? Yeah, with the imposter syndrome. I mean, like you mentioned you and you have this, you have this book coming out, but we'll get to that for sure, Josie, but I'm curious, like, where does that imposter syndrome live right now? What does it look like?

Um, the way I wired my brain over time was, if I could run the scenarios, the worst cases than if they don't happen, then I'm kind of covered. I'm thinking ahead of what might go wrong. So I'm obviously with my crystals. And my meditation, I'm trying to clear out pathways and rewire my brain not to be always thinking first thing negative and because at the same time, I'm getting already lots of praise for it. So it's a constant wrestling match of caught like calling myself out for it, but also calling others in to make sure they're like, kind of reminding me that it's good. That I'm good. Yeah,

yeah, I love that. Right. Cool. I think you just had some really brilliant, call yourself out for it, like check yourself, but also call others in. I really love the way that you put that. Because it's like, sometimes we don't have to do this alone. Right? See previous conversations. But we don't have to do this alone. We can have individuals who hold us accountable. And maybe it's not. It's not always we don't need people to hold us accountable and the deadlines short, if you need that, get that. But sometimes it's hold having people hold us accountable to the way we think about ourselves now and realizing that we are frequently our own worst enemies. I mean, I know for me, Josie, when, when my when my book came out this one right here, it's called product placement. The movies don't mean this. But I feel that when my book came out, I did basically didn't know marketing for it. I didn't know marketing for it, because I was short, it wasn't good enough. Like I was just like, I don't want to waste people's time. I don't want to be in your inbox. I don't want to be in your social media feed. I don't want to be running these competitions. Like why am I running competitions about something that's mediocre? And I literally started writing my second book, The week that my first one came out on the on the principles like that one wasn't good enough. Why don't you try again, boo, boo. Right, like and so that I mean that those those voices in our head are super strong. Right? What have you found that the people around you are helping you to? How are they lifting you up? How are they calling you out holding you accountable to hold yourself at a higher place?

Well, just real quickly, to react to what you had mentioned about writing, the second book is some coping or some harm we can do to ourselves is then trying to always make it up to ourselves, I'm going to work harder. I'm not going to take any days off this weekend. I'm, you know, I have to do x more podcast episodes, to always try to make up for it. And again, like I have to sit and check myself on it about well, why are you really doing this thing? And I also say that now while I'm, I'm confident some of the things I'm doing right now are probably for my own self healing, not even healing that I'm trying to fill stuff that probably therapists aren't doing it. Yeah, but I mean, like, even as a job Tao in middle school, I was asking for a therapist is i The good thing is I I'm not shy about asking for help, or like calling in friends, especially like riding through the book. I have like a number of folks on speed dial to like text message or jump on a call with I think I'm always worried that then I'm like, asking too much of them or being like an inconvenience. So then I'm always wanting to like how can I help them in return? Right? So I guess I would just say like, if you need help ask for it. Not saying like, your Twitter feed should be full of like calls for help. Like there's a difference. But I think you'd be surprised how many people want to be in your corner. And that's also really humbling to see

this beautiful. And it also speaks volumes of who we are right? Like you mean you are someone who gives and doesn't expect things in return. You are someone who adds value to every room that you are in. And but sometimes we don't always see that we don't get that praise, especially as educators. We don't always get that like maybe we'll get that thank you note from that student or that person we supervised, like 10 years down the road. We're like, hey, sorry, I was a pain in the ass. You were a good person. Right? Like, or, Hey, you said this one thing to me this one time. And I still think about that to this day, like, wow, I had no idea. I don't even remember saying that to you. But it sounds good. Right? Like those moments where you don't always know the when, when you're teaching even. Right, I think we can say the same for our parents as well. Like, I mean, there's things that my parents said that didn't click until I was yesterday. I was like, 38. I was like, oh, oh, right. And, and so it's fascinating. It's fascinating, definitely the way that the way that goes, and I love that you've that you've let your team, the people that you've built around your network lift you up. Now that's beautiful. But you're right, that's hard. It's hard to do. It's hard to get over yourself. There's this. There's this weird valor to like I did it all myself. Right with no help. No mentors, no role models, just me started for the bottom, and I'm here, right, like that kind of stuff. But that's bullshit. And, yeah, that's not a story that we need to write. You don't earn extra credit points. Doing it that way. And so yeah, I love the way you put that. But Joseph, we've been teasing it enough. Can you tell people what, what is this book that you got coming out that you've been working so hard on?

Now talking about not being not making choices, and for certain reasons that aren't the right reasons. So this will be the last book that I write on my own, I made it a goal of a couple years ago to collaborate more, I miss like, playing with people. Like I need teammates, and and dreamers and the book doing it alone. That was why I called on so many other people to like, we literally had a Group Me and My worst of days was mostly in that feed to a select group of people that you are. But it's one of those things that I knew like getting my doctorate, I just kind of knew instinctually, like, you're gonna write a book someday. And there was such relief in knowing that like, Okay, this is just what I'm going to do next. Because there's so many things in life that we can just learn a million times over about what I'm going to do. So I knew I had to do it. And, and obviously, like, do it right. But it don't ask me the question, when's the next book because, well, if it is, I'm writing it with you, because I don't want to do another one. So this book is called digital leadership in higher ed. Around the time of my doctorate, I started, which was like, I started in 2013, I was early captivated about social media, in higher ed, through a marketing perspective, but also through a leadership perspective. Because I was a, I was a leadership educator, I was working with students to run social media. And then I was also noticing at the time, that there were some campus leaders who could jump on a tool like Twitter, and just show up and students loved it. And then I worked at a campus at the time where our leadership wouldn't even go near it, like, like, are admitted existed a tool like Twitter, and so good starting the the doctor, they're like, What do you want to research? What questions do you have? So I was like, Well, what is the difference between a leader who has that ability to jump on a tool like Twitter, versus those that run for the hills. So that was my first beta research, it wasn't my dissertation, I looked at 16 vice presidents who, again, were just like showing up on Twitter and students were really digging it. And so that was the concept idea of the book, when I pitched it in 2016 was that I wanted to give a framework to educational leaders of how they could show up on social media. That wasn't awkward, that was authentic, and of course, was aligned with the values of education as well as themselves. And then that expanded to include people from all over campus but also presidents but also grad students. There definitely needs to be a whole separate book about like new professionals and mid levels, how they are navigating social and the privileges they don't have, like an executive would. Sure, but that's a different conversation. So this book, there's exercises in it. There is I think, a refreshing take folks won't be shamed to get out any tools. I hope they walk away feeling like they're given permission to be to show up in the way it's supposed to be. And that's in a personalized way. It doesn't need to be over complicated from that.

That's awesome, Josie. And here's what I love about the book also, I mean, obviously, in the title, you talk about higher education, but it's really for anybody, any educator. Absolutely. And individuals who also, you know, potentially manage teams and whatnot. I mean, I think there's, there's so many individuals that this book is also for, correct?

Yeah, I think you could replace the word students, as it's written in an example and replace that with whoever your audience is. And that's the big thing about going up through the lens of leadership online, is you are making the conscious mindset and decision that you're going to use this tool to positively influence those that you want to attract to you. And that's not just like being an influencer on Instagram, and then selling products, right? Like it's getting to the core of who you are, and then letting that come to light in digital spaces.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That's dope. That's cool. And I love it, because you're one of the only people who's talking about it, too. And it's interesting, because what do you think about leadership? Right? A lot of times we think about leadership, you think about one on one interactions, or one person too many. You don't often think about what leadership in the digital world looks like. Yet, there are all accounts that there are a number of accounts that we all could put a point to where we're like, oh, this person is is doing good work from afar, right from from a tweet from a post from a share from a whatever now and that that leadership, it can happen in many of those ways. But we often see individuals not not seeing social media is a platform that leadership can occur from be sparked from Why do you think that is?

Yeah, I've heard that that leadership cannot happen online. And there's definitely pockets of campus, ie faculty that are so hard to get in front of to share why a tool would be worth their time, in just a even just an academic way. I think at the heart of this and something that I had to come to terms with in the last couple years is social media. And technology. Like you had started out talking about your AOL, username and things

like your screen name Josie.

Hoser. Joe?

Yeah. Interview over greater Hoser Joe

dabit. Okay, back to talking boy.

Oh, yes, of course.

Social media is personal. We first got on these platforms, probably to connect with our closest family and friends. And now as they're entering in the workplace, people, and this could be a generational thing can get quite defensive, that they're like, No, I need these boundaries. Or they see Twitter as a hotbed of, you know, like political drama. Or, you know, I mean, those things definitely do exist. Yeah. But it's actually quite a. I mean, it's funny, like, it's not like selfies and memes, right, that folks can see, get really triggered about social, it's not simple whatsoever. Yet, we're not having intentional conversations in our families, or in our workplaces, or sometimes even in our intimate relationships, about how these tools are going to intentionally show up for each other, and ourselves. So a big piece of leadership is self awareness. And that's where the book starts out at is, who are you? How do you want to show up no matter the context? And then okay, well, let's see what you've done online is that congruent and this is the same stuff. I teach students to that in some ways, sometimes we've distanced ourselves and or not given it, its weight of how what we do in these digital spaces could have a real impact either way.

So hang on a second, Joe, do you mean to tell me that authenticity is important online? I don't know if I buy it. But no, you're right. You're so right. That authenticity is is is critical, and the way that we show up, and I think you've mentioned it earlier, where you talked about like, hey, It's totally fine to ask for help, but don't have everything be a cry for help, right? Like, there's a different way to show up authentically, what does authenticity look like on the internet?

I think it's really a discernment process that you I'm, I might give some frameworks and definitions and a whole lot of examples. But you get to define that for you, it might be a gut check of like, you post something, and then it just doesn't feel right. Or you get really excited about jumping onto some kind of thread that you see shared. But it's, it's turning consciousness on mindfulness on from what we are in taking, like when we're scrolling through, but also then what we want to share, because there's also this thing of like, there's intent versus impact, we can't always control how this thing's going to be received. So we also have to really, we at least need to sit with ourselves to know what I'm doing. I'm making this choice to do it. Because there's plenty of like text messages and emails that I've regretted right, like, a second on that. Um, so, so yeah, I don't want to like and there's Authentic Leadership definitions, and there's a whole chapter just taking different leadership theories and saying, What would transformational leadership tell a leader to think about how they could show up on social or Strengths Finder? Or, you know, I picked like, six or seven or so. And again, like, I don't think a lot of people have thought about it through that lens. It's it's not a cookie cutter model, like take what you need to navigate these tools that are stupidly complicated. What they say about research getting your doctorate it's also me search. So you're researching really probably stuff that you're working through. And I I mean, talking about imposter syndrome. Like I struggled a lot, sometimes putting myself out there or, I mean, don't even get me started about conflict. Or like politics. Like what's the matter

with conflict? Josie? Tell me, no. Yeah, no, for sure.

Yeah. So um,

there's so many things that there's so many things with that. That. Yeah, there's moments where they're super uncomfortable. And and how do you handle it? And what does it look like? And so I mean, I mean, I think you made some really cool points in there, for sure. And what do those different leadership styles look like? On the internet? Right? And how do they show up? They certainly do. We don't often just call them that. Right. But but there, that doesn't mean that they're not there. Right? Like serve it like servant leadership is most certainly not all over. All over the internet, for sure. Right? Yeah, we just don't, I

would, I would love someone to take this book and framework and research and turn it on its head for a critical lens of it, because I'm a white woman. And I tried to feature all kinds of people from different backgrounds. So it wasn't, this isn't just my story or my lens, but this is how different identities are showing up. But I when we talk about authenticity, we have to also call that out is again, based on position level identity, like all these things that there are some that can show up in the way that exactly how they want to in both digital and physical places. And then others it's a constant navigation that isn't as privileged.

So let's jump in to my favorite segment. Okay, the only segment that I have, which, which is called Things You Didn't Know About me before, but are now glad you did. Also please note Josie the name of the segment changes every time. But the general gist is there. So you and I are going to share some random facts about ourselves. And then and then we are we'll see what spawns out of that. And then we'll jump back into some of that other stuff around social media because I'm excited to talk to you more about it. Alright, let's go. I'll go first. Josie I'm putting you on the spot. At least I could do. All right. In middle school, in middle school, I won a free throw shooting competition in basketball. I won the local level. I did not win the county.

Congratulations. Thanks. I quit basketball in seventh grade after I missed every single free throw that I got put on the line for like this is my sign. I love that. I love that. Okay, so I go Yeah, please. Okay, well, this is why I was like, Did you see my notes? Because I, you gave me this question and I wrote a few things down a random fact, essentially during quarantine, my favorite Instagram accounts to follow our llamas. Are they really because the video you just show? I was like, did he see that? And I really want to do a video of a side by side comparison, you know, on Instagram, like discovery tab. And basically like reads your algorithm of like, these are the things you like, if you were like really honest with yourself, right? Like, what you're what you're interacting with. And mine is like llamas and cats. And like my friends, you know, I happy stuff. If you were to put side by side, my husband's search browser, it would be horrifying, because his favorite Instagram account is called death is metal, I think or animals and I know, you want to ask them about it next week. Because I mean, it's basically animals being animals, which is kind of horrifying sometimes as they like each other right? Or we're just such different people.

Do you share like does he shares some stuff with you? Like, you got to watch these two hippos. And you're like, You got to watch these two baby ducklings?

No, he knows better than that. Okay, sometimes I'll catch him like looking at something. Yeah, I guess I'd rather catch him looking at that, right.

That's true. That's true. There is there's definitely some more stuff on the internet. That's awesome. Tina's favorite thing and here's I don't know the difference between llamas and alpacas. If you know the difference between lon llamas and alpacas, can you let me know in the chat, folks? Or maybe you know yourself Josie? I don't know. But, but either way, but either way. I mean, people don't talk about llama fur, but they talk about ELPAC refer. But other than that, I don't know the difference doing them, you know? But either way, but you're done. Yeah. Yeah, Tina has a ton of alpaca things. And when I was out in Montana last week, I actually bought her a dish towel for the holidays. It has an alpaca wearing a Santa hat. And she literally jumped over the moon. You know, sometimes? Yeah. That's awesome. Um, okay. Here is another fun fact about me. I pretty much never used napkins. For anything I have. I've just like we have napkins in the house. I don't use them. I'm pretty much only like I grew up in a household. And this is going to be maybe unfortunate for some, but we used to have a dish rag. And so like, there's like a rag that you keep by the sink. Sometimes I bring it over the table. And I wipe my face with it. And that's what I use.

I'm not judging. Thank you. You wash it eventually.

Eventually, yeah. All right, hit me with one more fact. Josie.

One more. Okay. Um, so I played soccer in college by accident a little bit. I didn't go accident. I didn't go to college, like on a soccer, soccer scholarship or anything like I played club. And then Title Nine, they added soccer my after my freshman year. But all leading up to that I only played soccer with dudes, there was never enough to form a team for just women. So that's my ad bomb. So also, I got her a lot. I got my air knocked out a lot. Because I was playing with like, guys your size?

For sure. Yeah, Wyoming boys, as we talked about to Shea tissue, who probably cared less about you than the other strangers? loved you more, but the meaning. Yeah. So. So okay, so you play with predominantly, the boys growing up? And now is did that make you a better soccer play? Do you think? Or do you think it like? Like, how did how did that impact you?

Well, I was definitely like, tactically, I was put in to frustrate the defense. I wouldn't say I was technically skilled. Okay, so I ran around a lot, because that's what I had to do. Like playing with all men, boys, whatever you call them at the time. I had to like scoot around quite quickly. So but I guess what it was a disadvantage was obviously like, basically women's sports and college as a sorority. Like there's identity like literally, you're wearing your colors and your letters together and you spend a whole lot of time together. So I mean, I played the car have basically like T mom to try to, like, take care of these girls. Um, so yeah, that was that was just like new to me.

Yeah, that sounds like quite an abrupt switch.

Yeah, I don't. Yeah, didn't come naturally. But

since then, have you found that? I mean? Well, let me ask LSU two questions. Growing up, were you friends with more? More boys or more girls? Would you say?

Huh? boyfriends. I had boyfriends.

Get it Josie.

I mean, okay, so to like, I especially in middle school, um, I had a hard go at it with girls. And I got picked on a lot. And the way that I overcame it was to become super involved. I was like, Vice President, President everything and sports and, and like, the other coping mechanism was to like, have a boyfriend. They were like, the security blanket a little bit. So it honestly wasn't into until adulthood that I figured out how to have healthy female relationships. Because no, most of it was all based around competition. And it still is something again, that doesn't, I have to work at it. And making friends as an adult is already super difficult. Right. So I Do you have regrets about not investing as much time into not only the skill, but the relationship with women. You know, like earlier on, but I think I just got, I just kind of got the short end of the stick a number of times where there was some trust stuff. I had to work through. Yeah, I guess like guy I had more guy friends, for sure.

Sure. Yeah. And a slew of boyfriends apparently. Good. Good for you, Jesse. So the thing, dad was a peaceful man,

if you just would have sent me to therapy.

There it is. There it is. That if you're listening, there's still time. But it's fascinating because Tina, my wife, you know, she talks to women because she she she learned at a later age that women need women and the power of female friendships. But she also had, she really shouldn't have boyfriends. She had one boyfriend for a very long time. And they were on and off again. And, but but they did it for quite some time, like through college, and then even a little in grad school and whatnot. And so and so it was interesting for her to learn much like you did the power of female friendships. And the difference? How would you if you could describe the difference between female friendships that now that you now have, and some of those friendships with men that you've had? How would you how would you describe that? Is it just a level? Is it the isn't the empathy that is there? That's powerful, or, you know, what, what are some of the big differences that you've noticed?

Hmm. Well, I think it also coincided with me recognizing and embracing my identity as a woman. Because also an for, like, where I grew up. I don't think that was really expressed or explored as kids or teens, and especially if there's such a you know, like rough and tough identity that you are kind of pushed to take on this like rough exterior. And again, there's, I could work and, and work ethic and still stay humble, like all day. So I feel like the 2k I had to do my own work to also understand how to show up for another woman and where she was. And I do think my friends out here that I have met already. They almost helped my I guess exploration of that, even though like we maybe never talked about it, like what does it mean to be a woman or I learned from them, I think to then really be able to sit in my skin and what that looks like differently. I also feel like it was we I don't know if y'all, I didn't think anything would feel different when I got married. I'm like, I've been with this dude forever. Like I'm just changing my last name. Yeah, for some reason that really pushed me into want to know myself more and understand how to show up not just in that relationship, but in everything that I did that I was just so surprised about. And not to say that that always came across smoothly. Like I think maybe there was not a rebel but like, oh, I need to I need to figure out and do my own thing. And not you know, because this is this is a forever thing now, right? I don't know if I answered your question, but this therapy sessions been great.

I'll put my Venmo at the bottom of the screen. No, I think I mean, that's so that's so fascinating now because one thing that I've talked to a number of friends about earlier about not earlier, just in general in, in the recent months, is who are those friends that round the corner with you? Right? You have your friends from different stages of life, but not, you know, every time you round a corner, right into marriage, into parenting into a move into whatever, whatever the big turns of life are even college, right? Graduating those kinds of things. There you have a core group of friends, or you have a core group of friends that make the turn with you. But there's a whole bunch of other people that you had great relationships with perfectly fine people, no beef whatsoever, but they're kind of always just going to be those people that you did those some some of those things with. And whenever you get together with them, you're going to talk about those things and reminisce, it's gonna be awesome, what a beautiful time or laugh or cry, all that kind of stuff, and then be like, cool, take care, I'm not going to talk to you about my retirement plans, or my insurance or, or like, you know, my investments, and things like that. It's so interesting to note, who two rounds the corner with you, and for you hearing you talk a little bit about that with your, with your la friends, and kind of how they helped to make you realize some of these things. I mean, it's those moments that make you want to hold on to some of those individuals when I went around corners with you. Right? I think it's, it's a cool, a cool thing that happened with those individuals and what a powerful, what a powerful gift to give to somebody, I'll be it unknowingly, that you're helping them explore themselves and, and identify deeper with who they are, or identify newly with who they are. I think that's super cool.

Well, I mean, you're obviously not out here in LA, but I think I would definitely count you into that crew, where I think in friendships before I would have felt hurt if someone like called me out on something or like challenged me. And, and maybe that just comes with time, but I feel like a like you would call me on like something that you're like gglc You know that such a stop it. Like I'm just wallowing

right? Let me wallow. But also I

feel like my gauge is in friendships and the turning of the curves and things is and to kind of bring it back to you is I don't feel like I am a bother or that I'm like going to be asking too much that there's just like this unsaid open door. And so that's where I can tell like someone I feel like I might be having to ask a favor to or that that means our friendships, maybe not there yet. So

yeah, but here's the fun thing about us, Josie is that we met on the interwebs. Right, and and you reached, we were both following each other. And because I highly respected your work and just knew that you were a mover and shaker in the industry. And this was especially when I was working in a more formal capacity in higher education. Like you're just putting out a lot of really cool things. And and you're truly were and are an influencer in the higher education space. And so it's like, you know, I got, I got to hold on to these coattails. And the only way I can do that was with a follow then that's how we're gonna start now. But it's cool because our friendship grew and grew over time from then as we got to know each other, whether it was conferences, phone calls, and things like that. And it's beautiful, because the internet was built on that the internet, but social media was built first off as a marketing tool. And that's fine. We can leave that as it is well done. Zuckerberg, it's a giant marketing machine that you've built a bunch of data. Right, exactly. And so, but it was also built under this idea of connection, right? Let's connect individuals, you know, at first on this college campus, or like my what MySpace did Friendster before that, right? All these kind of things, is that connection. And it's beautiful, because we are proof that the internet can connect in a really meaningful way. And so that's awesome. But here's my question for you, as we kind of shift into the 2020 of it all, if you will, is that social media was built to connect us in your opinion, Josie, how's it doing?

Oh, gosh, I guess it depends on the platform. I mean, yeah, I am so grateful for a tool like Twitter. I would not have started a business nor met So many amazing people. Twitter, though is much different than it was when we met, you can still forge those same connections, but you have to go in even more intentionally. Because it's busier. And there's a little bit more distractions and problems, some directions you could go in. I mean, like YouTube, if you watch one wrong video that you were just maybe curious about, or you wanted to see both sides on, it's going to feed you that the algorithm is going to give you that, whatever it is over and over and over. So you have to keep your consciousness on all the time and not like questioning everything. But awareness. Like, like I said, about Facebook, they are taking your data, like you choosing to be on that platform, please don't tell me like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe it. They have my pictures like, it's their platform. I'm sorry, I have to break it to you like that. I know. That's kind of Instagram, like, even email, we are on Gmail, like, I get served ads from stuff that I know I've wrote in an email, like, the conversations about privacy are pretty wild and problematic. That we, I know, I learned how to write a check, I think in second grade or third grade, like who writes checks anymore, right? Like these conversations need to happen. Super young. But unfortunately, a lot of adults, we're not having just the basic conversations. And now we're headed into an election. And I think just know what the context and culture is of different platforms, and own your truth. And if you're going to post something, just own it everywhere, and whether what that response is going to be or not, I learned the hard way. last election season, I had like family out of the woodworks coming at me, I was like, geez, I would have never thought they would have posted those comments. They would never have said those things to me to my face. They hugged me when I saw them next time. Like it didn't even happen. So some folks don't see the the connect like we did, right. We knew there was a connection. There was this hearts and friendship. Just on Twitter, and then we met up and it was it was great. But some folks don't have that they don't see that connection that this is actually real and makes an impact. So I'm not like judging on those people. But that's what do you want? Right?

I don't know what I want. Either I ramble and eventually just do a little light. And that's when people are supposed to start talking. I'm ending on a question. Man. That's that's pretty much how this works right here in case anybody was wondering. It's only fitting that we put our social media handles up for this. But yeah, I think you're right. I mean, the internet emboldens people. Right, and you don't need to look any further than every comment thread on any political post. And the way that it emboldens individuals is fascinating. And I had a conversation with a former student that I worked with, who was a conservative who's a conservative man, very pro guns. And, and believes that Black Lives Matter is a political organization. And that was started by white Democrats. Right, like and so. So that's, that's where he camps out. And that's, you know, I mean, I guess to each their own, but it's interesting because whenever he would comment on my posts, whenever he commented on my posts, he would be he would come from my neck and say things like, Oh, I'm just I just I just thought you were like he would say things that like my parents would have said to me a long time ago and probably still could were things like I just thought you were better than this or I thought you were smarter than that or I thought you were this that like these like shame driven comments. I'm disappointed in you and and we all know the shame is not an effective teaching tool. Now I'm so I'm not being taught I'm just being made angry. And but he did it a number of times until one point I had to you know, I just reached out to him and anytime he would write something I would respond back not in a while how about you and you're like No, I got a we got to keep a level out here. And and so but there came a point in time where I reached out to them now also on social media. And and I just said as I you know, I don't know what happened here. I don't know what the years have done to us. I don't know when I started disappointing you this much. We used to laugh we used to have one on ones we used to you know talk about, you know, relationships that we were in we talked about fishing we talked about all these Like I don't under like, When did it get to a point where this is how you talk to me? Like what did I like maybe I misunderstood our relationship. And I didn't come from in some like, like woe is me type of way. But it was in that same context where it's like, it talked to me about why you don't talk to me, like we have a history, and why we don't have a relationship now. And it was powerful. He wrote back something very kind, very self aware. And it was great. And honestly, I'm very grateful that he ended I didn't smash that unfollow button or that unfriend button. Because it's because of people like him that I follow that I get to hear other stories, right, that I don't just hear the one side that I typically fall on. And instead, I hear some of these other sides like, Oh, interesting, I never thought of it that way. Or, that's, you can see why this led to that if people thought this and, and whatnot. And so and so I mean, that's why like canceled culture is not really effective. And, and so it's just fascinating, though, when we think about that connection, where, you know, kind of what we're talking about the internet was meant to bring people together. But it's very successfully through a lot of these algorithms, through a lot of these means data tracking, that is really pushing us apart and creating these different camps. And it's not very effective at its initial goal, in my opinion.

Well, I love the example you shared in you humanized it, you brought it back to relationships, and maybe did that in a DM or maybe you did it publicly in a thread. I think, again, to know each platform and it these are tools just like a phone call, it's just like an email or text message. None of these are going to solve or change someone's mind, honestly. And so keeping it to the relational piece, and then we have to make choices like is this person important to me that I have? Is this conversation? Do I have something to grow and learn from like you said, I don't want just all the same thinking in my feed, just like I didn't want that growing up, I noticed I was surrounded by all the same types of people. So have that in mind. Instagram is owned is just for photos, right? Twitter has X amount of characters, these aren't and all their tools. And that does not replace the relationship piece of it. And then the bridge to the equation is you making a choice whether you want to maintain that relationship, like what's the scales that you're, you're willing to play and emotions feed into all of this, again, like social media, it's very personal. And so most of the time when we see a lot of what you could call dumpster fires, or you could call it conflict, people get caught up on emotions, we are activated chemically. To some are to keep going for me I like run for the hills, I opened a bottle of wine and Aramco and back online. So we're all reacting. So see with that, why am I reacting this way? Again? What's this relationship? Where's the best place to connect and have the conversation not just from what you post, but how you're interacting? Because Because yeah, I have a lot of connections back home that see things much differently than I. And so I weighed the scales of the the investment of that relationship versus, you know, just the emotional outpouring that I feel like needs to happen in this space. Yeah.

But it's a beautiful thing for you Jessie's you talked about those relationships with people at home. And the differences with individuals that you spoke about is that and you're like, and you're like, well, we get to family gatherings and we hug each other. But that is directly in line with what you talked about earlier about that Small Town Living of like, you have each other's backs. It's like, yeah, maybe we think differently. But at the end of the day, we're family right at the end of the day, small town folks got to look out for small town folks. And there's there's a real beautiful, there's some beauty in that. Right the ability to disagree but still hug is great. Right? Like I think that's a really beautiful place that I wish more people could get to with each other

man is hugs.

Oh god yeah, yeah. Amen to that.

We're gonna hug so hard when it's on

I love that. Here's the last thing that I want to talk to you about it just kind of sticking on the same theme in your in your experience. Now I'm curious how effective you believe hashtag activism is now we see. Obviously, the hashtag Black Lives Matter hashtag me to movement hashtag. It's on us hashtag like all these powerful movements that have been called raided and spawn through hashtags now. But we also see the other movements of more than a hashtag and whatnot. And so when we think about activism and the role that we play in the voice that we have, and the microphones we have access to, do you believe that hashtag activism is effective? What role should it couldn't play? Should I post one thing on my Instagram story with a hashtag and be like, I'd say the world? I'm like, what is it? What does it look like to you? And your experience?

Yeah, I mean, I think it goes back to discernment and self awareness that am I posting this just to feel less guilt, that or especially in higher education, there is a culture of feeling like we have to put out these statements that then again, like check a box to say we said the right things, you know, I've made my statement to again, like check off that box. And that is not what activism is, that's being performative. So is it actually better to save that time to actually do something that no one is ever going to see if it's that donation, or if it's lifting up someone else's voice, and that's what I commit, my time to do, is to find those voices to use my platforms for that, or empowerment or mentorship. So while we know, especially Twitter was a huge spark for the Black Lives Matter movement, and continues to be, but it isn't just a hash tag, and it's part of the equation, but it can't I can't just be like, crossing that list. That thing off your list that day.

Yeah. Yeah, it's something it's something you can do that as your part of the story, but that doesn't mean you've done the work. And the internal work and also the external work of, of community of listening to stories of uplifting voices of, of getting in the work of checking your own situations, but it is it does play a role. I think it's powerful the way that you put that Josie and I appreciate you friend. Yeah, I think it is. I think it is illuminating, right. I think there's a lot of individuals especially right now in the middle of the social uprising that we are in that are now part of the conversation that maybe wouldn't without social media and a lot of ways that's very good in a lot of ways is like individually like wow, I never thought someone like that would feel this way. Right. I just always thought blank blank blank, because that's all I ever knew. And we have access to more stories and access to more emotions. And there's some beauty in that we also obviously know the dark side of it as well. But I don't know I don't I don't I I don't know if they necessarily level out right I think that access to more stories is usually a good thing. It's it's always what I what I used to say when I first went to school down in the south and this was you know, back in the early 2000s That to date myself don't let the Silverfox look fool you but you know, going down there was like oh it's racist down there racist racist and and when I went down there I was like, oh my God is gonna be so racist everywhere. And yes, was there was there more visible signs of racism there? Sure. But it turns out if you just lift up one peel back one layer of the onion Shrek, you can also see all of the racism in the northeast and out west and all those kinds of places, right? Like, I mean, yes, Portland is seen as this liberal Bastion but the history of Oregon is very white and very racist nominates Fascinating, right like and so it's so it's so interesting to think about it and for me, I would rather have it out there because then we know what to do then we know what's going on right? And I don't know So then again to bring Shrek up again.

Donkey? Well, I think it it quickens the pace of exposure. So growing up, all we had was Local News and Newspapers, right to like rely on like this, this is the world I guess. And so now no matter where you live, you have access to knowledge. But all that could also be quite overwhelming when it's especially people or lifestyles that you've never seen before. And so sometimes that that learning curve could get overwhelming to a person that maybe that never left my hometown. And again, you talk about don't do shaming culture or from masks to movements to elections, having relational conversations, even if you can do that on social or get it off line I think would be a bridge edge instead of going into that circumstance to cause more to cause more flames to bring it back.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And well done bringing it back to Josie. It has been so much fun hanging out with you. I can't thank you enough for hopping in the diner with me tonight.

It was a treat. I am full of laughter You didn't make me cry. Thank you.

I thought about it.

There you really I even got my hair cut and did for this. Oh, shoot. Oh. Even six months it was

it was time. It was time. How long was it? Where's the like? The length? Yeah, was it? No,

it was more the other highlights that were happening.

Okay, gotcha. Gotcha. Gotcha. need to be cleaned up a little bit about your

book launch next. Yeah,