Ask For Help with Mike Skrypnek

Welcome to diner talks with James, slide into the booth and let's have conversations we never want to end with friends. We never want to leave over food we probably shouldn't be.

My friends welcome to another episode of diner talks with James. I'm James and I'm pumped to be here with you all my friends. We took a little break recording some stuff, mainly because I forgot to record things over the holidays. And so thank you so much for your patience with me and I'm just super pumped to be back here. kicking it with you y'all back in the diner, slide back and change your order in the new year. Your new year's resolutions got you ordering something a little bit different. Maybe a little less whipped cream on the waffle. That's fine. We all make bad choices. Either way, my friends I am pumped to be kickin it with you here in the diner. My first new guest of the year is my guy, Justin Patton. Justin and I met on a random zoom call. We decided we liked each other and then we hopped on a phone call and here we are hopping on this call. So it's great. We're three conversations deep and I like this man a lot. I like his aesthetic. I like the way it looks. I like the way he talks. More importantly, I like the way he thinks and I'm excited to introduce him to you. Justin patent is an executive coach, leadership presence expert and award winning author who challenges individuals to use their presence to communicate with stronger trust. He's a former high school English teacher. He's a world champion from the Cavaliers Drum and Bugle Corps. Needless to say, he's a little drummer boy para pom pom. I regret that joke. Let's keep moving. He also studied body language from a former FBI agent. Now I've studied by language from a bunch of people. I don't know if any of them are former FBI agents because they weren't allowed to tell me anyway. He also lives in the great town of Louisville, which remember, if you want to say correctly, you must swallow for Marvel's first and then try to say Louisville. But no matter what, I'm excited for you to get to meet this man and kick it in the diner with us slide in the booth. And let's bring him out right now. My guy Justin Patton. What up brother?

Hey, James. Great to be with you in the diner. It's good to be with you. I someone honestly told you about Louisville and how to say it correctly. That's the classic line just put a bunch of marbles in your mouth and say it out loud.

Got to learn from the locals. You got to learn from the locals. Totally. Yeah, for sure. I mean, my whole life, it was definitely no refund Lewisville and that's just drawn up a Long Island. I didn't know and then I was quickly corrected. Yeah. And now Now I've been educated and I've been to the town great city, Louisville.

Yeah, good foodie city super affordable pretty good culture. So yeah, I like it. So I've got

a strong bourbon scene also which I yeah there's a bunch of great ones right there in downtown Louisville and obviously the surrounding area so but I love it Well Justin I'm stoked that you're here you know this shows called diner talks with James and so it's only fitting that we talk about what are something that you what are some things that you like to eat late at night you know, I don't know I don't we'll get it I'm not sure where you grew up. So maybe where you grew up in the country they were I hops waffle houses Denny's. I'm not sure if you had diners where you were I don't I don't know what your late night move is or was but I'll throw it to you to enlighten us.

It will listen, it's different now than what it used to be because back in college we could all go to like oh Charlie's really late at night. Whenever I want it Listen, I love me smell Charlie's those those roles, James that was in the 40s now, we can't I can't do that anymore. But now I well, I do love some pizza. I ain't gonna lie. If I have leftover pizza, that would be my choice. But I would say probably I try to avoid eating late now. But if I have to I'd probably just be like popcorn. You know? It's kind of a classic go to. That's probably what I would have in the house. But if I had pizza, listen, that's my jam.

It's go time now. What's what's your what's your dream pizza? Like? What kind of toppings are you putting on there?

No, I'm, I'm simple. Like it's just pepperoni for me. Like you can put all the meat on there. But I'm really just just give me some pepperoni pizza. I'm good. Yeah, what about you? What's your

classic for a reason, right?

Why? My trainer yesterday was like, Oh, I love that pineapple and all this. I'm like, see? I don't know if I trust people with pineapple on pizza.

Why this is the only reason why you're in the diner right now. Because people with pineapple on the pizza. I'm gonna tell you from New York. Where's this fruit come from? All right, fruit on his pizza away and show yourself to my Nona you know what I mean? Now, of course, there's somebody in the audience who's like, you know, James James. tomato is a fruit and no one likes that person. Yeah, I'm gonna say most of you when it comes to pizza, I also like the like the meat, right? You know, my, my family grew up by you putting sausage on pizza. Or for me, whenever I did well in school, you know, kids these days, let me make myself sound old really quick, but you know, they're getting like 100 bucks for a great report card and stuff like that. If I did well, in school, we got report card pizza. And then if I got straight A's, I got to pick a topping on the pizza. And so I would usually pick meatball meatball pizza is what I used to do back back in the Long Island days. So yeah, but yeah, that's me. I like I'm not an attorney in any colors on my pizza. I don't eat any fruit underneath any vegetables. Besides what's traditionally there?

Listen, that's the classic parenting technique of blackmail do really well at school, and then you can do.

Exactly, exactly. And as someone with a one year old, I can't wait to use it on

what goes around comes back around anyway. So shout out to Justin Timberlake. So, Justin, where where are where? You know, back in back in your Oh, Charlie's days. Take me even further back pre Oh, Charlie's. Where did you grow up?

Yeah. So I grew up on I'm a recovering farm boy. So I grew up on a farm in Mount Washington, Kentucky, which is about 30 minutes outside of Louisville.

Okay, great. Yeah. So you didn't stray too far from home?

Not not too far. I did. I did. I did take a trip to Chicago for a year and came back. I think everybody comes back home at some point usually. But that was yeah, I grew up grew up there was no great experience. I was I always tell people, James when it comes to a farmer, I have so much respect for farmers. But I obviously was like Belen, hay and shoveling manure and doing all these things as a as a as when I was growing up. And I realized very quickly, I was just like, oh, manual labor was not my thing. And I was like, I've got to find a different route in life. So I have so much admiration and respect for people that do it. I just knew I was like, Oh, that is not my journey. I was just like, No, I couldn't do it. But But I learned a lot from it. And I learned about work ethic and you know, just also raising so many animals. It was a good experience. But that wasn't my journey. Long term. Yeah,

for sure. I can only imagine how many stories you have from that in your life as well. But yeah, I mean, yeah, just on the farm. I mean, you have to It's every day, right? Like you can't just be like battle on a farm today. It's like no, these animals going needs something. You know, there the crop seeds, something that whatever, what kind of farm was it?

So we only had 11 and a half acres, but we had a bunch of cows and sometimes we had goats and chickens and all that kind of stuff. But it was more just raising cattle for beef. It wasn't like milking cows or anything. But James, I remember when they would get out. And you'd have to go chase them down, you know, chase them on the farm. And I was like, This is ridiculous. I was just like, I am out here chasing a cow. But I honestly my sister and I look back now and we laugh at it but back then you're like, this is this is it? This is what we do.

So it wasn't your sister's journey either.

I was not we were both like Okay, I think we need to go back to that we need to get a look. You know what's funny, is I wonder how much life is reciprocal. But you know, obviously as I got older and got into college, I want it more the city life and all this but I find the older I get, and I don't care. I don't want to have a farm. But I definitely find the older I get the more I revert back to you know, not solitude but more in the country and and more of that peace that came with that.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. So God damn peace and quiet out here.

Right. Yeah, I find that I as I get older, I want to move to more urban environments. Just because I like to, you know, I'm like, what's her face? I want to be with other people. Right? So it was an area right?

Listen. You know, one of the things about me I was like, if you make a movie reference to James, I'm gonna be clueless. I haven't even watched The Lion King or Star Wars. I was like, people don't judge me for it. But I was like, I knew the Disney movie. I just wasn't sure what Disney movie it was.

That's it and it's all good. Just not every jokes or every person does. When I'm on stage, sometimes I'll make jokes that are just I was like, I was like, I know only three I'll go and get this but this is this one's for you. It's coming for you.

It makes your soul happy when you tell a little bit doesn't.

Some of these are just for me. I tell them that. I make like old school DMX references and stuff like that. Like y'all don't care. Well, I love that. So you grew up on a farm. And, and so it's also funny because as someone who grew up in pure suburbia, you know, whenever I hear like, it was just 11 acres, I'm like, that sounds like a county, right? Like, I just don't have no concept of what 11 Acres is, right? Because I grew up on like, a half acre quarter acre plot or something like that. So it's just 11 Acres is like, it's just a, you know, large piece of God's green earth. And so, so no matter what, Justin, it's impressive to me. So for you, uh, for you, you know, that work ethic that you learned during that time? Is that something that you continued on, like, did that? Did that translate into schoolwork? did that translate into into, you know, future future career endeavors? Or is that something where you're like, I got to figure out a way to cut some corners and operate more efficiently?

No, I would say looking back, it had definitely translated my mom and dad, both were always the the line that we were always told, right? Whether it's working with animals or school is just don't half ass anything. And I think it's just that got reinforced about, you can't have past things, you know, with animals and taking care of things and do it right and do it right the first time. And so I really think looking back, I never really thought about it, you know, until now, but I really think that was reinforced. And I think I did that through school. I think I did that when I went after things that I wanted. It was never at half effort. It was I'm kind of an all in person. And whether it's to a detriment or not. I'm like, we're if we're gonna do it, we're gonna go all in. And then you know, except the rewards and the consequences that come with that choice.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I'd rather crash and burn. Then wonder what could have happened?

Yeah. Yeah, I think, to your point, I just think, you know, it reminds me I was writing my first book for five years. That was maybe I didn't go all in at first because I was me forever. And I had my best friend, Gina. She stopped me. She called me one day and we were talking about it. She goes, Do you know what I've always admired about you? You've always been a doer, not a talker. And she goes, but you've been doing a lot of talking about this book. And I was like, oh, no, like that was all like, because I pride myself right on not being a talker and beans. There's a lot of people that talk about running a business, talk about doing whatever. And I think I learned on the farm is you don't get to talk about it. You got to get up and you got to do it. And so I think oftentimes, sometimes you might need that reminder, but I hope in life and I'm a doer and just go after it.

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And was that is that unleashing potential? The confidence confidence book?

So that is a worse one. But my was actually my leadership book, which is called Bold to you. Yeah. Okay. bold new you.

Okay, amazing. Sorry about that. But okay, cool. That's awesome. Dude. That's awesome. So where did you Where did you want to go to school and college? And and what did you study since you knew farmland wasn't for you? What did you decide was for you?

Yeah. So crazy little journey. I thought I was going into law enforcement and the FBI. And so I actually started going to Eastern Kentucky University. And that was going to be my major. And because I didn't want to go into the FBI or be a lawyer, but I knew I was on a track somewhere right around there. And at 18 years old, I just started college, and my dad had hemorrhoid surgery at a major hospital here in Kentucky. And it was supposed to be very minor, get him and get him out, no big deal. And I'm going to fast track for you, but they left Gauls inside of my dad. And he ended up dying of a major bacterial infection that spread through his whole body. It was very unexpected. Laying in bed with my mom when it happened. And you know, obviously was very traumatic. Any of us that have had gone through very moments in our life that just disrupt everything. And James, for me, that was like, the first pivotal moment that changed the trajectory of my life. And so I just, I, it's not that the FBI or law enforcement or being a lawyer wasn't meaningful, but I knew I wanted to do something different. So I switched my major at that point, and went into education, and ended up going and becoming a high school English teacher, so ended up finishing at Eastern Kentucky University got my Master's in University of Louisville, but all in education, and I taught high school for five years, because at that point, that's what I really thought I was called to do. So I can make a difference.

Yeah. When, what? So how old were you when you're when your father tragically passed?

Yeah, so I was 18 at that time. 18 Yeah.

18. I mean, you talk about a life altering event. You know, did you have a strong relationship with you with your parents? Were you close with your parents? Are you close?

Yeah, very close. But I'll tell you kind of the outcome for me what it did as an 18 year old kid, who didn't know how to handle loss that painful and that deep, I don't think I'd ever had the coping strategies, because I never really had anyone, you know, I never experienced death around me, as far as a person. So for me, the only way I knew how to cope was to emotionally disconnect. And I always tell people, I kind of became dead from my neck down. So I learned to show up in life, living from my headspace. So I would tell you, I loved you, I would tell you that I cared about you. But it was all happening very transactionally. Because to survive, and to get through it, I had to kind of disconnect. And I literally probably spent 12 years of my life that way, and I threw myself into my job and career. And from that perspective, maybe it was, you know, it was a good thing. But eventually, those actions caught up with me and started holding me back. So but but that's, that's what I had to do that or that's what I knew that that's what I knew how to do, to try to get through it.

Yeah. And that was your body's response. Right. It's like, you know, fight flight freeze, or, you know, yeah. And, you know, you said that took you 12 years. That is understandable guy, I think, you know, you said something powerful in there where you said, you know, at 18 we know that men aren't fully developed, right. yet, not until our mid 20s. Do we get the credit of being fully developed? I think. Even then, I still have.

I'm still wondering.

But yeah, so yeah, I completely agree. But the but in 12 years, you know, moving through the the stages of grief, you know, you probably didn't even allow yourself to even move through them.

Well, I think what happened is I had my natural defense was to just bottle everything. Yeah. So what happened is I just kept putting everything in the bottle, right. So every time someone broke up with me, every time I didn't do well, at something every time, something that was uncomfortable happened, I did not feel it. I just shoved it in the bottle until I got pushed out of a job that I really loved. And it was I had used my career for 12 years to validate myself worth. So then you lose a job. And everything that I had bottled up is starting to come out and you're in. And I think it's in those moments, where life really knocks you down. And you kind of feel it at rock bottom, where you have to look at yourself and say, Who am I now there's a famous line that I love it. Elizabeth Gilbert, the author of Eat, Pray Love. She says, the most interesting moment of a person's life is what happens to them when all of their certainties go away, then who do you become? And so obviously my dad, right when that when that's everything that was certain became uncertain. What happened is I my action was to shut off what happened again, 12 years later, when I lost a job, which is my sense of security, my sense of self worth, when you're sitting there, it's in those moments we get a chance to, if we have healthy coping skills to redefine who we're going to be moving forward. And at that point in life, I was at a better place. So I was able to deal with some things process to get some help and pick myself up. And it's probably why it is why I do what I do now. But I didn't get that for the first 12 years because I didn't have those skills.

Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Right. But that was that was the key line there if we have healthy coping skills. And I mean, it's not to say that what you were doing before was necessarily unhealthy. Right? There are certainly more unhealthy things if we're going to rank to rank them. But But yeah, so you know, at that moment, was it was it counseling? Was it just a lot? Did you go on a silent retreat? Did you meditate? Like, we know what was it after 12 years that just kind of like allowed you to process all of that?

Yeah, so can you still hear me James?

I can. Yeah. Okay.

So for me what allowed me to process that was, it was really, yes, I went to counseling, I got some help. But what I was also able to do was talk to some friends that were able to have my back, I was able to sit in it and do my work. And so all of those things were really important part of my journey. And I think it took all that it took a piece of all of those to be able to get me to a place where I could show up better. Yeah.

Yeah, that's powerful brother. That's it's a multifaceted approach at that point for sure. Yeah, that's incredible. That's incredible. Yeah, a lot of people especially when something like that happens to them and they can't fathom how it happened. Like you said it was your first experience with loss, let alone a loss that grand and a lot of times, you know, people push other people away because it's either a you wouldn't understand because, you know, maybe yes, you lost your dog or maybe you're lost Your you know, aunt or maybe you lost or whatever. But it's not the loss of a parent. Or the other reason is because, you know, we don't want to be a burden to other people, or you know, talking about it, talking about it makes us have to live in it or admit it or whatever. And so, building that team around you, that you feel comfortable sharing with, is, is powerful, and is is critical. But you have to get there in your own head first, right? You have to admit, or admit to yourself like, Hey, I deserve help. And that's, that's a tough place to get to sometimes,

for sure. And I think that's, you know, we always say different, it's a different journey for every person. And I think it's a, I always say your journey, your timing, and only you know, when it's that timing for you,

your journey, your timing, I love that. Write that one down. So, Justin, it's a first of all, thank you for opening up and telling us about that. I know that it's probably not the easiest thing to talk about. And even though, however, many years ago it was, it's still still sucks. And so thanks for being willing to share that with us. So you, you got to be a high school English teacher or a high school teacher. I don't know what you're teaching him. Yeah, I was high school English was English. Okay, great. So I don't know my data myself. Well, I do know, I doubt myself and I'm working out in the counselor. But but so you got to be a high school English teacher. Now, I, I've told some people on here before that I got a Bachelor of Science in marine biology. Around my junior year, I realized I was putting too many jokes in my scientific papers. And my teachers like this may not be for you. And I was like, I think you're right. But at that time, at that time, I was like, well, shoot. Now I don't know what to do. Right. I'm literally in my junior year, I'm here at college. And I don't think I want to do this for the rest of my life. But I still like it, I still care about it. So maybe let me try to do it in a different way. And I thought maybe I'd be a teacher. And I got into a couple of high school classrooms and took the course of the education courses, except like that on my way to get a certificate. And I realized that either my self esteem was No, I realized that my self esteem was too low to work with high school students. It's just, they're a different breed that I immediately call to my high school students. And I was like, I just want to tell you that you're great and you worthy. And I don't know if I appreciated you enough. But know that I care about you. But choosing to be a high school teacher, I admire now I'm just because it's a fascinating time to work with somebody, right? It's not middle school, but it still is, there's still so much learning that is happening inside, there's still, you know, self esteem journeys, there is worthy there is Am I cool? Am i Great? Do I want to be liked? Do I want to be respected? What is being respected? Even me? What do I want to do with my life? You know, is it just a lot of big thoughts that are happening? Now? What was it like for you, as a high school? Teacher? What What were the what were the parts of it that you really enjoyed?

Listen, I loved it. I just I never thought that I was going to not be a high school teacher. I loved obviously, the interactions with the students. Obviously, I loved what I what I was teaching and believed in it. But being able to take what I was teaching, and show them how we can apply that to life. That to me was the was was the fun part and seeing them grow, whether it's an extra curricular act X, you know, activities, or that's the kind of stuff that really, that was probably the best part. I'll tell you, for me as an English teacher, where I struggled was you would have students that come that would you know, obviously be in your class as a freshman, let's use that as a freshman year, who don't know how to read very well. And I am not equipped. Because part of my education as a high school teacher, you're not equipped to teaching people how to read. And so how do you backtrack and try to help support someone when it's been years of being left behind? That was really hard for me. It's when I ended up getting my masters and reading education, so I could try to support them. But there are plenty of students where I feel like, gosh, you always wonder like, what happened? Or could I have done even more. But I cherish the relationships. Even afterwards, even now. Like I look back and for the five years that I've talked, so I eventually I taught everyone in the high school because we were in a really small high school, about 300 Kids in the whole school some of the time after your four I taught everyone. And you all knew each other. And so there was just a deep sense of connection. And I just, I missed I missed the kids and I missed the connection. And so that'll always be my favorite part.

Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, that is what you just share was was powerful about, like having the idea of having to teach someone how to read at the age of 1415. Yeah, whatever it is, that is I never even thought about that how high school to house how high school teachers aren't equipped. But certainly there are plenty of students that show up who just haven't been whether because they were able to slip through the cracks, or they were just passed along, or people were like, good enough, or, you know, whatever it was, right. And there's so much shame around literacy as well. And so um, you know, they're probably trying to hide it in some ways. And yeah,

well, so that you're yes into all of that. And what I don't remember the the exact year, but I am what I remember back when I back when I was in, you know, obviously teaching was that after second or third grade, there is nothing in that public school education system that actually stops and teaches kids how to read at that point, you're, you're expected to know how so then we keep pushing them along. And then they get really good at covering it up. So they either they either act out in class, or they get thrown out, they either just sit there and be quiet, they get really good at hiding it. And so I think it's why we as parents, teachers, adults, have to really create the safe space, to learn these things and be reading to our kids and about the importance of reading, I did this thing where I would always say we would always have I have like a ball, we would throw in class. And when you got the ball, you would always expect it to read. You could read one word, I didn't care. It could be one word, it could be one sentence, or you could read an entire page. But I was giving, I wanted to make it so safe for people to be able to find their voice and share it in the classroom. But I think it's important that we create spaces like that. And I think parents obviously especially with you with your Is that what you said one your own? Yep. Yeah, just it's so I cannot stress the importance and how much research there is about literacy to what happens long term to kids. And obviously, as they form into adulthood, I think literacy is just a huge part. And I'm obviously very passionate about it, even though I left that journey. But I know the role and how important it is.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. That's, that's, that's well said, I'm sure also during that time, you know, as your students were trying to hide it. You know, there were some things that you were trying to hide and run from also. Right. So there's that that's similar. That's similar through line, which is interesting. of just, we're all hiding something, right? We're not, you know, we're not, it's it takes a lot to be able to truly live out loud. And, and that that empathy is is powerful. It's incredible work that you do, or that you were doing and that you're still passionate about today, even though it's not exactly what you do is, is really incredible. Yeah, I can only imagine the mountains that you moved, and the people that you help get out of their own way. That's awesome. That's really

well, you know, and to your point, you know, I know we kind of similarly talk about authenticity, but the the piece of career advice that literally changed my career, it came from Greg creed, who's the former CEO of Taco Bell, and young, and obviously, I left teaching went into corporate America. But he said, one time, I was always teaching a class and someone said, If you could give us one piece of advice, what piece of advice would you give us? And he said, Stop trying to prove that you belong, and act like you belong. And that was a game changer for me, because so many of us are trying to show up in spaces and prove to people that we're smart enough, pretty enough, talented enough. And he and what it made me challenge me to think about was, what happened if I stopped trying to prove my worthiness? My love ability, my talented people? And how would I show up from a presence perspective, if I was just acting like I already belonged in that space, and I didn't need your validation, I didn't need your approval. That to me, you cannot get to a place of authenticity until you really start trying to act like you belong versus trying to prove your your worthiness to everyone else in life. And it was a game changer for me.

Yeah. You know, just let me first say that I don't appreciate being called out on my own show. So that that last that last advice needed a trigger warning, and I don't appreciate it. But secondly, I think and what you just said, there's a lot of people who heard it hear what you just said. There's a lot of people who can hear what you just said and think oh, just act like I belong act. Okay. Fake it till you make it. Yeah. Now what you just said no, not at all. Just that right but some people here act and let me put on let me put on a show. Right and act like let me just fake it till I make it but fake it till you make it is I mean, there's been some studies around how it can be successful. It's not a good long term strategy though, because of authenticity, and the need for authenticity and the need to be able to live in our truth out loud at that. So yeah, so taking another step for me, you know, what is? What is just allowing yourself to realize that hey, maybe, maybe I am enough, right? Yeah. You know, I talked to I talked to leaders as well. And I, I frequently tell them like, you know, how would you lead if you knew you were enough? How would you love if you knew you were enough? How would you let yourself be loved? If you knew you're enough? Because spoiler alert, maybe you're enough. Right? And but to actually just like, put on that hat of like, okay, here's my enough hat. Or, you know, here's my I am worthy. Here's my I belong, here's my excetera. That is way easier said than done, because of what you were talking about. Yeah, around this idea of feeling having of having to feel like we need to prove ourselves over and over

again. Yeah, that whole idea of fake it till you make it. And I know, there's a lot of people that buy into that. I think it's awful advice. And the reason is, is because you'll eventually make it. But you lose yourself in the process. Yeah, because you don't even know who you are, once you do make it. And then you have these coaches, people. So then they're leading teams of people, when they can't even leave themselves. And they erode the culture, they erode trust, and then they at some point, there will be a breakdown. And they're sitting there saying, Who am I now, because you never figured it out first. And so I don't want you to fake it till you make it I'd rather you make I want you to, I want you to figure out who you are, and make it in the process. Do the work. So for me when I say act like you belong? Yeah, it's not putting on an act. It's how would you show up in the room, if you already believed in yourself. Here's the the the main thing I would do with everybody, this is the most important exercise I do with every person I coach in the keynotes that I deliver is I say, Who are you when you're really at your best, and James, that those those actions are different for every person. So I always say, think of a time in your life, that you really showed up your best, personally or professionally. And doesn't matter when it is. And then based on that, tell me the top three actions that you were demonstrating. For me, I remember delivering a keynote to 1000 Women in Chicago, Illinois. And it was one of the first times y'all it was in I was in my element, I stepped on that stage. And I wasn't trying to prove it anymore. I literally felt so confident in my message. In my voice, I was fully present, there was stuff going on in the audience, and I was able to play off of it in real time. And then I brought a woman on stage and some stuff happened. And I was able to be empathetic, and in the moment. And here's what I know to be true for me. When I'm really at my best, I am confident, I am empathetic, and I'm fully present, that is the truth of who I am. And when I try to fake it, what happens is I always get pulled out of that truth. I'm overly confident, I lack empathy. And I'm not fully present because I'm too worried about who, who I want to be versus who I really am. And so when you can get really clear about who you are at your best. That's when I say I want you to walk into spaces and honor that, because that's the truth of who you are. And when we lose sight of that we walk away from it in the way that we parent in the way that we love and the way that we lead all of that.

Yeah. First of all, I just want everybody to notice, he literally just stepped back on that stage for a hot second. You just like, you just did a whole damn thing. And I'm out here, hold it up. $1 Come get it my guy. And that was no, that was beautiful. That was so beautifully put. And it was really cool to literally watch you put yourself back on that stage in that moment in front of those women in the way that you I mean, you carry yourself with confidence in this whole show so far, but like it was really cool to watch it elevate as you literally put yourself back in that in that place. I think about this for myself. And, again, I don't like this question that you ask people. So I don't appreciate it. But but for me, for me, a lot of times, a lot of times I am I asked a question from the stage, you know, would you rather be liked or respected? And I think you know, I think it is possible to be both but if you had to choose one, what would you choose? And that for me, I want to choose respected, but yet all my actions go towards being liked and the way that I carry myself and so that causes me to question myself right. Are you seeing the Would You Do you think I'm smart. Do you think This is innovative. Do you think I'm funny? Do you think I'm right? Like, instead of asking the question of just saying, instead of just saying, I'm smart, I am teaching what I know, to be true in the best way that I know how I am funny. I got you right now, right? Yeah, it's in those moments for me where I'm where I question it. And and that's, that's what I think the difference between those two for me are, you know, when I'm when I'm fully in it, when I'm like watching myself do my job from above me, you know, that moment? You're like floating above? What was this dude? Look at this man. Right? Like, like, the difference between that and what I'm actually in my head and getting stuck? Is? Is that is am I am I questioning it? Or am I knowing it? And and the issue for me is that I don't always answer the question. I wait for other people to answer it for me. So then I then believe it. Mm hmm. Does that make sense? Like I won't. I will. Like I won't answer that question like James, Are you smart? Instead of be like, I'm seeking it externally. external validation, instead of finding it internally, then that's, that's one of my biggest Achilles heels. As we're talking about this topic. Yeah,

it just, there's a couple things that come up. For me, there's a line I don't know who said this in the country. But there's a line that says, We all get addicted to the thing that takes away our pain. For some people, it's religion, some people it's the gym, some it's alcohol, sex drugs, it could be it could be it can be anything. I think we all get addicted everything. It takes away our pain, sometimes validation, right. And so we're in this constant need for other people to tell us what we should believe about ourselves. I remember James, when I first got into corporate America, so you know, someone in the LGBT community, I remember I had to go teach in Texas. And I don't know why this is the craziest thing. Looking back, I wore a wedding band while I was speaking, because I was like, Oh, I'm gonna fool somebody. And I'm like, fooling anybody. But I look back now. And I'm like, I did that to try to maybe make it not an issue, or in what I've learned. Now, obviously, what, you know, 10 something years later, 15 years later, that I don't need your acceptance, I don't need your validation. And, um, you know, to your point, I'm the one that has to look at myself, and and be okay with that. And so when I step on stage, the thing that's helped me is to say, I'm not here to resonate with everybody. I hope I do. And I mean, do I want to absolutely. But I trust this is the acting like you belong, I trust that I don't need to be the the most the best leadership person in the world out there. But I do believe that my message is important. I do believe that someone in that room needs to hear it in only the way that I can say it, just as I believe they need to hear your message and everyone listening, your message needs to be heard by some people out there, and only the way that you can say it, because it's going to be your story, your delivery that makes them go, oh, wow, that's speaking to me. And I learned when I said act like I belong, that I didn't need to try to be someone I'm not if those weren't, My People Go, they're not my people. And I respect that. Or maybe they're just not where they maybe they're not in a place in their journey to receive it. I'm not going to own that for them. I remember some woman at the conference, the very end raises her hand, and she was like, what do you do with the boss that's, you know, you know, talking about this not the best and or, you know, or doesn't, you know, whatever. And I remember saying just I'm the probably should have thought about the answer before I said it, but I just like, trap stop trying to own his insecurity. And everyone just started clapping in that room. I don't say this out loud. But I say it to myself when someone doesn't approve of either who I am or someone doesn't approve of who you are, how your what your marriage looks like, or your type of family. I refuse to own your insecurity that is about you. And I don't have to wear that on my soul as I move forward in life. But it just took me a long time to get to that place. But it started by acting like he was acting like I belong, and honoring who I already was at my best and not allowing other people's opinion to dictate that.

My goodness, my word, I refuse to own your insecurity on.

Now you don't tell people that.

Tell him you told me. That's fine.

I refuse to own your insecurity. I'm just not. I have enough of my own to deal with. I don't need to own yours in the process

That quotes going on the diner talks Instagram page right there. Please fall down and talk soon. Man, that's a word right there. That is That is beautiful. And a lesson that I know I need to learn, as you know, as someone who is an empath, as someone who wants people to like him as someone who, as someone who also is like a, I'm like a consummate host. Right, even when it's not my event, I wonder, was everybody having a good time? Everybody? Okay, you know, okay, everybody doing okay, but you didn't think gonna get you anything? Right? Like, you know, you know, I'm the kind of person that is attracted to the individual in the room that doesn't look like they're having a good time. And first off, get over yourself, James, you don't need to be out here saving everybody. Right? And you also are writing a story, right? That person's looking like they're not having a good time. Maybe they're doing just fine and taking a much needed introverted break from all the noise, right? Or whatever, right? Who knows what story I'm putting on to that person? And so yeah, so this is, yeah, this is this is powerful. Yeah, well, very well said, Brother. And I love that you just got spout that out in the middle of your programming like this, it y'all Here you go, you won't catch this message real quick. Yeah, that's, that's amazing. You know, you do a lot of executive coaching. And so you're working with C level executives. And so you're working with societies, quote, unquote, most successful people, right? Because they've achieved this title, because they're worth this certain amount of money, because they have this much responsibility over whatever it is that their fortune, blah, blah, blah, company does. And so you work with some of the most quote unquote, successful people? Do you have to work with them on their definition of success? Yes. Tell me more about that.

My experience has been that they myself and other people, I think, often have put their success and their self worth into their career. And the one of the questions I always ask everyone I coach, is I start off by saying, Who are you, and most of them will tell you titles. I'm a mom, I'm a dad, I'm an executive, I'm a director. And then I asked them, Who are you without any of those titles, and they can't tell you. Because what we've done is we've built our entire life, on the validation of the titles, or the money or the trophies and the awards. And then with when you strip all of that away. And that's where self esteem comes from, is when you can strip all of it away when it all of that is gone. And your kids grow up, and they go out of the house, and I coach moms, especially moms who are like, I don't know who I am anymore, or I coach the other people, these executives who who get fired to get laid off. And they're like, I don't know who I am anymore. Because we put so much of who we were in those things. And it's not that they're not important. It's just that when we anchor them to our sense of self and who we are, I think it's dangerous. There's a quote that says, success is an inside job. And to your point, James, what they've done is they put their success in all these external things. And so when you talk about redefining it, it's how do you redefine it and where success is an inside job? For people. That's some that's some hard work when you've spent in a lifetime or even for me, 12 years of my life, really using my career and all these external things to to validate, can I share a story real quick, I hope you will. I'm not going to give you an executive, I'm going to give you a student athlete. So I went to a college to speak in front of a bunch of student athletes. And I can tell there's something wrong with one of the the young women in the audience. So after it was over, I went to go speak to her and I found out she was, you know, she was division one sports. And if you know anything about division one, they've been playing sports since they were like one years old. So her entire life. She's been getting ready for this moment. She is the captain of the soccer team. I think it was Old Dominion University. And it was her senior year. So Captain senior year, first game of the season. And two minutes before halftime, she gets knocked down and they blow out her ACL. So her career is over. It's done. She'll never play again, at least for that season and her college career. And she goes, I feel defeated. And she goes, I'm lost. Because her entire life, her parents and everyone else said, you're an athlete, you're an athlete, you're an athlete, and she goes, I no longer an athlete, and I don't know who I am. And all of her self worth and self esteem was was completely it was all you know, it was eroded, of course, because she put it all in that. So I had the chance to work with her and help her understand that she is so and I'm gonna say everyone listening, you are so much more than the career you're so much more than even the parent the title that you've given yourself. And I think part of our responsibility is to explore who Am I without all of those things? Because when they go away, and they will go away? What am I going to be left with?

Yeah. This is why you see so many people struggle in retirement, or just straight up don't retire. Or they struggle, as you said, when they become empty nesters, or they struggle when whatever happens, that breakup happens, that firing, etc. Now, yeah, that the what a question, Who are you without those titles?

Yeah, why not want to clarify something even said, I do think it's important to have that we work towards meaningful goals. And that's why a lot of people in retirement struggle because they don't feel like they're getting up and have something to work towards. So that is different, as long as you're not using it, to, to justify who you are. And to say that my worthiness relies in that, that's different. But I in the reason I share that with you, I'm going to give you just a quick nugget of like, some emotional intelligence information. When they started this, I teach an emotional intelligence assessment. And they started out as a clinical tool. And out of the 15 traits in emotional intelligence, there are three, that if people were low in, they would diagnose them with clinical depression. And they were self confidence, self actualization, which is your ability to set goals for yourself, and optimism. And that means when life gets hard, can you still stay optimistic? And you can see how if you if you're low in all three of those, of course, people are going to be like, Well, life sucks. This is as good as it gets. And so our job, I think, as leaders and in parents, especially, is what are we doing to help grow our children, our employees in all three of those areas, so they end up being healthier? Because they're automatically going to show up, give give our customers better experiences. But I do think that self confidence piece that in that, that who are you? That's where it all starts. And I think we've got to get better at having those types of conversations with people.

Yeah. Yeah, I completely agree. You know, a lot of people, parents from their own insecurities. A lot of people lead from their own insecurities. A lot of people like, you know, like you were talking about earlier, from what you said, on stage that we truly do. We do those things. And I also know that, you know, there are times where I love for my own insecurities as well with my, with my partner, you know, I always like to say, it's way easier for me to love Tina, than it is for me to let her love me. Because I don't always know if I deserve it. Right. Even though I do innately like underneath it all. I'm like, sure. But there are, but you know, there there was that one time where I hurt that person, and I'm still a jerk. And then I don't deserve love because I because I hurt somebody else, or or I don't deserve this. Because you know that one time I did this one thing, right? And so the way that we attach ourselves to some of those moments, where maybe we weren't at our best, and let those be the linchpins for how we define ourselves instead of our current truth is hurting us in a lot of these places.

Yeah. To your point, I think there comes a level of, especially when you think about confidence and self worth, where you fully embrace your humaneness. And I tell people, I teach this, not because I got it all together. I make mistakes all the time. I think my awareness allows me to make mistakes less often. And when I make those mistakes, which I do, I, I think I respond differently as a result of it. And I so I would just say, I think we talked about authenticity earlier, we're talking about self worth, I think it's allowing yourself to know that you do have insecurities, that you that we're all walking around with a bunch of invisible baggage that no one gets to see. And you're filtering everything you hear through that baggage. And to say, I'm going to accept, no, I'm not going to give it a pass. I'm going to accept it. And I'm going to try to be as aware as I can. And I think relationships especially that's what's so beautiful about you and your wife, Tina, whether it's kids, all relationships are just there to teach you about yourself. And you are going to learn about what baggage you still have left to deal with. You're going to learn about your insecurities, you're going to learn about what your values are. I just choose to believe that's what all relate whether it's a quick interaction with you. All relationships are just there to teach me about myself and the work I still have left to

do. Yeah. Well, I'm excited Justin after this. I'm gonna go downstairs look Tina in the eyes and say I'm just here to learn about me. Just see how that goes. I'll let you know how it goes. Justin All right.

She's probably gonna be like it's always been. It's always been about

the corner. So let's, let's tie a few of these things together. You You do. You also work on executive presence. And you're also passionate about authenticity. So you try to get Get people to have an authentic executive presence. Does that sound correct so far? If you're heading in the right direction, okay, great. I'm gonna let you go. I'm gonna let you I'ma let you I'm gonna let you finish No. Taylor. Alright, so. So the thing is, is that oftentimes when we think of being an executive, when we think of being a part of corporate America, and whatnot is, which is what I attach the word executive to. So when we think about it being executive, we think about corporate America, when we think about corporate America, we think about being that there's a book by this guy named Michael de resurrects called excellent sheep. And it's about how the highest Ivy League schools and the top tier schools in this country are all training excellent sheep, they're not creating new innovative leaders, right. And so they're just kind of putting people out so they can be in the workforce. And they can kind of keep the pipeline going, of what's been happening and the traditions of what it means to be in the workspace. And so when we think about the idea of bringing authenticity into executive presence, what I sometimes hear is breaking the mold, shaking things up, because not everybody is ready for your authenticity. A lot of times when people show up as their authentic selves, sometimes it makes people feel uncomfortable. People don't like to feel uncomfortable, especially in corporate America, where it's like, alright, we're all going to do this, we're all going to wear the same shirt, we're all going to laugh the same way. We're all going to do this, right? We know this women, in particular, in corporate America have been victims of this. You know, since the dawn that women were even allowed to work, right? Women are told to not be assertive, if they're, they're too assertive than they're bossy, or bitchy, if they are, or even if they're just any sort of assertive, right? Women are told that, well, they're not necessarily told us out loud, but they're kind of told that where they, they shouldn't be too funny, you can be a little funny, but don't be too funny. Right? Where it's like, keep it contained in between these like, it's like a sound wave, or it's like keep it in between these two frequencies don't get too hysterical or to whatever, right? And that sexism, we know that. But when we think about combining the words, authenticity, and executive presence, which I may have just put on you, but that's fine, defend yourself in a minute. But when we think about combining those things, sometimes I hear those sometimes in juxtaposition to each other, because of the traditions that occur in the workspace. And so I'm wondering if first off, your rebuttal is coming up, and I'm excited to hear it. But you know, how would you speak to that? Does it sound remotely accurate? You know, where are you at with that?

Yeah, so I would say that I teach leadership presence. And here's how I define that. I think it all ties together. But I always say leadership presence is communicating in ways that builds trust with other people. We all have presence, we do not all have leadership presence. And it's not either something we either always have or we don't it's a moment by moment decision, how you showed up in the grocery store, how you drove your car, that's a whole nother conversation, we can have another time because I have a whole philosophy about people who drive the car certain way. And to your point, how do you show up in leadership? Does the way that you show up, earn other people's confidence and trust? If so, that is leadership presence? So to your point, do I think authenticity is a piece of that? Absolutely. Because I think authenticity is a key to actually building trust, that were where I stepped back, because I need to explore it a little more is to understand what we mean by authenticity, because I know some people that are really loud, who think, Oh, that's my authentic self. And I'm like, so many dimensions to that. And there are times to be boisterous and loud. And there's also times that you can still be your same self, but be in but instead of a 10, what is a seven look like? But sometimes we've never even given our permission to understand. Sometimes people need to earn the right to see you at 10. But you just give it to them all at once, what would a six look like? And so I try to help people understand there's all these dimensions to authenticity, and what would happen if we explore those, and what and, and, and I do think it's important to meet people where they are my pastor once said, you can't meet people where they are when you think you're above them. And I don't have to give up who I am to meet you where you are. But there is a level of empathy and authenticity that can come with that. So I think it's a deep subject. But I definitely think you can be authentic, but I think we got to give ourselves permission understand me just wearing it. And the last thing I'll say is this, Greg creed also told me if you ever have to give up who you are for a job, you're in the wrong job. And so if you really feel that you can't be your authentic self, then you're just in the wrong space and go find you a tribe that embraces that for yourself?

Yeah. Yeah, that's so it's, it is it is a nuanced thing for sure. And I love what you talked about how is it's not something that you always have on, right? That's something that you have to find it in those moments, whether it is at the grocery store behind the wheel, or in that feedback conversation, or in that time of uncertainty in front of the team or whatever it you have to you have to find it. And so I appreciate that. I also love like, I can't stand when people are always like, well, that's just the way I am. It's like, that's that's not true, right? That's, that is not just the way you are, you are multifaceted. You are, you have many dimensions, like you said, and so, yes, it is it is interesting to do thinking about that and leadership presence, the idea of building trust is important. And there are many ways that we can build trust. One thing that I talked about on the stage is the difference between credibility and relatability. And how leaders need both, I think the best leaders lead from readibility are receiving the best leaders lead from relate or lead with relatability Backed by credibility, right. So they lead with their stories through their, through their wise through their, it's not who they know, it's what those people taught them. It's not the degree or how many years of experience they have, it's what they learned along the way, right? And their ability to talk about those things, like their fellow human being who have been growing and in a process, not just coming in and being like, here's who I am, hey, don't here's my title, sit down, shut up. You know, let's move some decimal places over there. Right. And so, you know, I think about the relationship between those two words, when I think when I hear you say, leadership presence. And I'm wondering if you've thought about those words in that way? Or what are your thoughts?

Yeah, I definitely think to your point to have to be able to create trust, I think you have to have relatability, you have to have the ability to connect with it's all because it's, it's, it's about a team effort. You can't have trust, when you're focused on yourself. It's impossible. And so to me, to your point, because I because what it requires is that I have to put the relationship before myself. So are Am I willing to say that we're in this together for whatever that means. And then when it comes to the credibility piece, I always say there's three elements that kind of make up credibility, but it's image competence and character. And I think that character pieces, the majority of it, which comes back to trust in how we treat people and how we act. So. So yes, I totally agree that both of those things are fundamentally important. And one of the questions I always say it's sometimes I try to make it easy for people. And I'm like, What is a guiding question that you could just ask yourself? And here's the question, I would challenge people to say, if I was having a co worker, I'm having a tough time with them, right? Just to be able to say, what, what action would I take? If I was focused on building trust, right now with this person? You're, you're gonna have a different answer. Maybe I'd say, You know what, I would go and talk to them about it first, before going behind their back, or whatever, like, in my marriage, we're having a problem, right? So to say, what action would I take if I was focused on having trust with that, or with my kid? To me, I think our actions are very different. And I'm going to tie it back to some of the stuff that you teach is, and I was looking on your website, I was talking a little bit. And I know that you talk a little bit about kind of love in this idea of coaching and love and leadership. And I know sometimes people are like, Oh, my gosh, that touchy feely stuff, here we go. And here's why I love and I challenge them on it. Because I'm going to ask you in a second, where do you think love, you know, what's the place for the leadership. But when people challenge me, and they cringe a little or down the inside, when I use the word love, I always say, can I ask you a question? Tell me those three words about who you said you want it to be when you're at your best. And they'll say kind, caring, empathetic, and isn't it interesting, all your words are rooted in love. And it's the very thing that you don't like to have to own. And there's a disconnect now, so they're emotionally disconnected. And so do your point. I'm gonna give you some thoughts in a second, but I'm interested in yours. What role do you think love kind of plays in leadership?

Yeah, I think love is critical. You don't have to like everybody, but you got to love everybody, right? Because love makes you show up. Right? When I hear love. I hear the word commitment. And when I hear commitment, I hear patience plus persistence. Right? And so, you know, patience, because growth is a process and persistence, because growth is a process. And in all successful loving relationships, it's a balance of both. We're not just being patient where it's like, well, you'll come around, right? We've many of us have been in a friendship or relationship where like, well, they'll change you know, they'll, they'll find motivation or they'll stop doing the thing that they do or whatever. I'll just be Patience, right? That versus the other side of that you can't just be persistent because that's sometimes turns us into micromanagers. Right? And we're on people all the time. Right? It's it's that give and take that I think is an A great loving relationship that is critical. I think also, what I've learned from having Rome, our son is that in the beginning, when he was first born, when he was first born, I don't know if I would call my emotion towards him love. Just because I was like, this is this is a whole lot of responsibility. This is a lot going on here. I don't even know you. You just came in here. You're a third wheel in my marriage. You're a very you say you're asking a lot, but not saying a lot. You know, I'm saying pal. And and like, it was just, it was a hard moment for me as a new father. But as time went on, I got to realize that sometimes love looks like responsibility. And that's okay. Right, love looks like responsibility. And I do believe that if you have taken a leadership role, then you have taken on the necessity of you have taken on the responsibility. Yeah. And therefore, you've taken on the, the idea that you have to love these people. And so that's where it comes in for me.

Pat Summitt used to say, leaders don't get to pick and choose which days to be responsible. And so I you know, I love kind of where you're headed with that, you know, I always think there's two things I think of everything I've studied, kind of, you know, in A Course in Miracles and other things says that there's only two core emotions in the world. Everything is rooted in either love or fear. That is it. And it's not that I make, it's, it's not the decision making gets easier. But you learn to look at it very differently when you say, Am I making this decision on whether to leave or stay in the company or whatever, out of love, or out of fear? And the Harvard Business Review asked in one of their articles, they open the article up and they said, is as a leader? Is it better to be loved? Or is it better to be feared? And of course, they define those words and what they mean. But the answer came out to be that they're both important, but you have to start with love. Because love is the conduit to trust. And it's the conduit to connection, and you have to earn the right to lead people, we just don't inherit the right because all of a sudden, they're under us. From a title perspective. I always tell people when they're in this workshop, if you struggle with the word love, but the word Trust, because you can't have it without it. And, and so for me, I think it's a fundamental place that we've got to get better about talking about, and then breaking that word down into to your point into really what it means connection, Grace, forgiveness, you know, recognition. Without it, you're always going to be focused on yourself and reacting out of fear, which is not healthy for any culture. And any dynamic.

Yeah. Justin, you and I could go back and forth on this forever. And at some point, at some point, our voice will get higher, and we'll just be like, I know. I know. Yes. I just I feel so aligned to you and the work that you do. And I'm grateful that whatever the heck that random zoom call we were on brought us together. And yeah, I love the way that you think brother that you know what you just said is powerful. Right, right over here. To my to my left. I have a movie poster from one of my favorite movie of all times. It's called the Bronx Tale. Now it's Robert De Niro Chazz Palminteri and folks like that. And and basically Jezebel material plays the local mob boss. And there's a kid that starts to idolize him that grows up down down the block. And he asked him, he asked Chas one time he said, he said, you know, would you know if you had to choose Would you rather be loved or would you rather be feared and, and the mob boss said you know, Chad says he's like, he's like, love is nice, but fear last longer. He's like, so why would choose fear? Which is so fascinating to me now and I get it right? I mean, it is there. I don't know which one lasts longer. Now. You could talk to some people who haven't been over their breakups that they had in middle school. Which one last longer, but but still, but still, I choose love. I you choose love. And so that's good enough for me right now. Brother. Angry. Hello, Justin. i It has been such a pleasure to get to hang out with you some more today. I cannot thank you for gracing the diner with your presence and wisdom and charm and and just and just dropping some real truth bombs in here. Brother. Thank you so much for coming through. Can you do me a favor? If you're new? Let people know how can they how can they stay in touch with you and where can they find you?

Sure. Well, it's been an honor to be here. So thank you, James. And everybody. Yeah, so it's JP inspires all one word. All social media. So hit me up there and LinkedIn, social media, whatever. And then, of course, Amazon, all my books are there right, a new book on trust, hopefully to come out mid year. So we're in the homestretch of that. So but yeah, so feel free to connect me on social. I hope to see you all there.