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In the next episode of Communicate Like You Give A Damn, host Kim Clark, is joined by Suzanne Wertheim, national expert on inclusive language, who discusses the power dynamics at play in language and communication. She highlights the softening language used by people in power to protect each other, especially in cases of egregious behavior. Suzanne explores the concept of power, distinguishing between institutional power and social power based on dominant group membership while emphasizing how individuals from multiple elite and dominant groups receive affinity bias. Together, they even delve into the challenges faced by non-dominant groups in workplaces, where experiences of insult and injury are often dismissed using softening language, contributing to gaslighting and invalidation. This episode is sure to introduce you to Suzanne’s framework for inclusive language, emphasizing the principles of reflecting reality, showing respect, drawing people in, incorporating other perspectives, and recognizing pain points in language and beyond.
About The Guest:
Dr. Suzanne Wertheim is a national expert on inclusive language and the author of The Inclusive Language Field Guide (2023). After getting her Ph.D. in Linguistics from Berkeley, she held faculty positions at Northwestern, University of Maryland, and UCLA. In 2011, she left the university system in order to apply her expertise to real-world problems. Dr. Wertheim has been an invited speaker around the US and in Europe, presenting research on language and bias, language and gender, and anthropology and artificial intelligence. As head of Worthwhile Research & Consulting, Dr. Wertheim now specializes in analyzing and addressing bias at work.
Find Dr. Wertheim Here:
About Kim:
Kim Clark (she/her) focuses her work on the communicator and content creator's role in diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI). She is the co-author of The Conscious Communicator: The fine art of not saying stupid sh*t, an Amazon #1 bestseller and the leading voice for DEI communications and social justice messaging for brands.
She speaks at conferences, writes custom workshops, writes inclusive communications guides, and consults with companies on all things related to diversity, equity, and inclusion communications. Kim is a member of the LGBTQ+ community, a cisgender woman, Native American (Muscogee Nation) and a mom of two kids with disabilities. These marginalized identities and the privileges that come with society seeing her as White motivate her daily for social change.
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Hi there, I wanted to let you know that what you're
Kim Clark:about to listen to is part two of my conversation with our
Kim Clark:guest. And I really encourage you to listen to part one, in
Kim Clark:addition to, it can be in a different order. But make sure
Kim Clark:that you get the whole conversation, the conversation
Kim Clark:was so rich, that we needed to split it up into two episodes.
Kim Clark:So take a listen, make sure you catch the first part, and enjoy.
Kim Clark:Before I get into having you talk about the framework that
Kim Clark:you introduce in your book, I want to say thank you, I've said
Kim Clark:this to you personally, but I'm gonna say it here on the podcast
Kim Clark:for so many of your extremely needed and timely onpoint.
Kim Clark:LinkedIn posts when social justice issues, especially
Kim Clark:crisis situations have occurred, you've really shown up to help
Kim Clark:guide people through how to language some of these issues to
Kim Clark:stood out for me. One is when the Ukraine war broke out. And
Kim Clark:then also January 6, can you talk about what you said about
Kim Clark:January 6? What were you seeing out there of how it was being
Kim Clark:framed? What was happening there? And you make a
Kim Clark:significant point that everyone I really hope you take away from
Kim Clark:this conversation is this idea of being of watching out for
Kim Clark:softening language and the harm that can be caused from
Kim Clark:softening language, especially from us as communicators and how
Kim Clark:we coach our leaders if they're going to make a statement
Kim Clark:externally or even internally. So if you can kind of remind
Kim Clark:folks of what did you say around January 6, what were you
Kim Clark:responding to? And what was your point around softening language?
Suzanne Wertheim:So I started with a Twitter thread on January
Suzanne Wertheim:6, right? I didn't like I didn't wait. I started with a Twitter
Suzanne Wertheim:thread. And I'm like, Ah, this is bad. Like, we have to stop
Suzanne Wertheim:seeing these things. And then there was a little bit of
Suzanne Wertheim:uptick, but there was chaos. And I haven't worked to develop a
Suzanne Wertheim:Twitter following because it's gonna be such an unsafe place
Suzanne Wertheim:for people who are women, and I don't look particularly white.
Suzanne Wertheim:So I'm like, hey, you know, I'm gonna leave it. But LinkedIn is
Suzanne Wertheim:a much better platform for me. So on January 7, they took that
Suzanne Wertheim:Twitter thread, fleshed it out a little and put it out there. And
Suzanne Wertheim:it got well over a million views, right? Well, over a
Suzanne Wertheim:million people read it. And speaking of not arguing with
Suzanne Wertheim:people, there were some people in the comments who wrote
Suzanne Wertheim:things, and I'm like, Oh, my God, I'm not gonna waste my time
Suzanne Wertheim:talking to you. Right. So I had earlier that year, no, that's
Suzanne Wertheim:earlier that year didn't exist. So previous year, I had worked
Suzanne Wertheim:for a national news organization that really wanted to do bias
Suzanne Wertheim:their journalistic language. And so I had set up some frameworks
Suzanne Wertheim:for them on how to report things and I said, you're gonna, you're
Suzanne Wertheim:gonna get pushed to replicate dominant frameworks and use
Suzanne Wertheim:language that protects people in power. I was like the police, PR
Suzanne Wertheim:person is going to give you a spin, where the police have done
Suzanne Wertheim:no wrong. And the person who got shot by them is to blame and is
Suzanne Wertheim:a criminal and is dangerous and whatever I'm like, and you're
Suzanne Wertheim:gonna have government officials that are going to this that so I
Suzanne Wertheim:was giving helping them unpack. So for me, I had just been
Suzanne Wertheim:educating about this. So it was very clear to me that reporters
Suzanne Wertheim:were coming in white reporters, white middle class and up
Suzanne Wertheim:reporters were coming in and seeing people gathering in front
Suzanne Wertheim:of the Capitol and finding the commonalities and humanizing and
Suzanne Wertheim:empathizing with people and saying things like, protest,
Suzanne Wertheim:protesters and Trump supporters would say three things like Oh,
Suzanne Wertheim:you like dogs, literally, our conversations with armed
Suzanne Wertheim:insurrectionists that this is not an exaggeration, right? I'm
Suzanne Wertheim:not I'm not using hyperbole, I mean, literal armed
Suzanne Wertheim:insurrectionists out to do damage out to do unlawful
Suzanne Wertheim:things, including online unlawful takeover, though
Suzanne Wertheim:government and people were using language that humanize them
Suzanne Wertheim:presented things from their perspective and was softening
Suzanne Wertheim:language. So now let me define softening language, which is
Suzanne Wertheim:softening languages language that present problematic
Suzanne Wertheim:behavior as reasonable. Right? So it's language and again,
Suzanne Wertheim:again, all right. So if you think of a threshold, so here's
Suzanne Wertheim:the dividing line and above it is problematic behavior and
Suzanne Wertheim:below it is acceptable and reasonable behavior. Softening
Suzanne Wertheim:language actively moves behavior that is very clearly in the
Suzanne Wertheim:problematic zone and pushes it under the threshold of
Suzanne Wertheim:acceptability into the acceptable reasonable zone where
Suzanne Wertheim:it doesn't make sense to do anything about it. It doesn't
Suzanne Wertheim:make sense why Why are you pushing back? Why are you
Suzanne Wertheim:calling me out? Why are you saying these things? Why are you
Suzanne Wertheim:saying this is unacceptable? So? Yep, so this is the term that
Suzanne Wertheim:I've used for it. I talked about it so that that post went viral
Suzanne Wertheim:because people felt I think very comforting. You feel gaslit?
Suzanne Wertheim:Right, right. So in therapeutic psychology, it's called
Suzanne Wertheim:invalidation and dis confirmation, right? So you can
Suzanne Wertheim:see things with your own eyes, and you're experiencing them
Suzanne Wertheim:yourself. And you're like, and then somebody says, that's not
Suzanne Wertheim:how it was, this is how it was, it wasn't bad, it was like this.
Suzanne Wertheim:Right? So I think, collectively as a country, because most of us
Suzanne Wertheim:are not nearly as polarized as people like to make out there's
Suzanne Wertheim:a very vocal minority. But a lot of people want rule of law and
Suzanne Wertheim:transparency and order. And all of the government that funds
Suzanne Wertheim:things that we need, you know, like, just want things. And it
Suzanne Wertheim:felt like, like journalism, which is supposed to be
Suzanne Wertheim:reporting things as they are follow is still client instinct,
Suzanne Wertheim:you're buying into this framing that is so clearly wrong. And so
Suzanne Wertheim:I think that's why I think that's why it resonated with
Suzanne Wertheim:people so much. Do you want to hear how it plays out in the
Suzanne Wertheim:workplace, because it's the same pattern?
Kim Clark:Absolutely. And before you get into that, I'll
Kim Clark:say that I've run into issues with people saying, well, my
Kim Clark:leader doesn't want to say the murder of George Floyd, they
Kim Clark:want to say, the death or that he died. And so it was a similar
Kim Clark:kind of reality check, where there was this kind of, you
Kim Clark:know, helplessness that was invited by putting it into the
Kim Clark:appropriate or reasonable area, rather than by softening the
Kim Clark:language, rather than we have to deal with this harsh reality
Kim Clark:that, that this man was murdered by a policeman. You know, it's
Kim Clark:like, it's hard for us to just for some of us, not all of us,
Kim Clark:right? There's communities that live this every single day. And
Kim Clark:then there's communities that I'm a part of that doesn't,
Kim Clark:right. And so there's this calculation that our heads go
Kim Clark:through for some of our demographics, that it doesn't
Kim Clark:compute. And so it's hard for us to call a thing a thing,
Kim Clark:sometimes. So I just wanted to add that example. Yes, please
Kim Clark:give us some in the workplace.
Suzanne Wertheim:But let me go back and say also, there was
Suzanne Wertheim:this after George Floyd, I can't remember who it was, but I think
Suzanne Wertheim:it was a TV critic did this very good interrogation of so many
Suzanne Wertheim:shows have been cop shows that you end up sympathizing with
Suzanne Wertheim:empathizing with humanizing the police and seeing everything
Suzanne Wertheim:from their perspective. But then he goes through, and this
Suzanne Wertheim:terrible thing happens in the show, and this one, and then
Suzanne Wertheim:they just go off stage. Right? So for communities who live in
Suzanne Wertheim:that's the main story for them. I got paralyzed by a cop who
Suzanne Wertheim:shot me for no reason, right? But you know, for the cops, it's
Suzanne Wertheim:like, oh, my agony, I shot someone, and I probably
Suzanne Wertheim:shouldn't have I guess I have to go to therapy. Right. So whose
Suzanne Wertheim:perspective? Who's humanized? Who do we get to really see as a
Suzanne Wertheim:full fledged human being? Okay, even before I go to the
Suzanne Wertheim:workplace, I want to say that another area I see this in and
Suzanne Wertheim:this goes right back to the 90s. When I was putting together
Suzanne Wertheim:these conferences and editing these volumes, people for
Suzanne Wertheim:decades have been doing work on courtroom language and reporting
Suzanne Wertheim:of sexual assault and sexual harassment, and how frequently
Suzanne Wertheim:they weren't calling itself any language, but they're showing
Suzanne Wertheim:all these mechanisms. And so people end up with acquittals or
Suzanne Wertheim:a slap on the wrist because the framing is so frequently, even
Suzanne Wertheim:in the Brock Turner case, why should his life be ruined for 20
Suzanne Wertheim:minutes of fun said, I think and this is like how it goes
Suzanne Wertheim:through. So there's this way in which um, so as I was writing
Suzanne Wertheim:the book, or not long before I wrote the book, Mary Kay
Suzanne Wertheim:LeTourneau died. And so for your viewers and listeners who are
Suzanne Wertheim:international, this is a woman in the US who was a teacher and
Suzanne Wertheim:headlines when she died. She was a very pretty young woman in her
Suzanne Wertheim:mid 30s. But look much younger, thin, white, blonde woman very
Suzanne Wertheim:attractive. And she it was so headlines today said things like
Suzanne Wertheim:Mary Kay LeTourneau teacher who was jailed for an inappropriate
Suzanne Wertheim:relationship with her student dies, right? inappropriate
Suzanne Wertheim:relationship with their students. So in my book, I
Suzanne Wertheim:unpack what that is. And I'm like, Ah, it's right. Like it.
Suzanne Wertheim:And you may think, oh, maybe like he's a manly 17 year old.
Suzanne Wertheim:He was 12 years old. He was 12 years old. Children cannot
Suzanne Wertheim:consent to sex with adults. You don't. There's no other
Suzanne Wertheim:language. She went to jail on felony counts of rape. So a
Suzanne Wertheim:headline should say like, if you read that softening language, or
Suzanne Wertheim:that that that language that hides things. Let's talk about
Suzanne Wertheim:the softening for I have a section of my book on invisible
Suzanne Wertheim:lesbians. I was talking about this with a friend of mine who
Suzanne Wertheim:grew up in a more conservative House All she said she was in
Suzanne Wertheim:her 30s When she realized her aunt's roommate was her
Suzanne Wertheim:basically wife, because it was always her aunt's friend is
Suzanne Wertheim:softening language. Like the reality is they're in a romantic
Suzanne Wertheim:relationship that is just as valid as all the heterosexual
Suzanne Wertheim:relationships in our family. But we're softening it to something
Suzanne Wertheim:else, right? to mask it to hide it in the workplace sexual
Suzanne Wertheim:harassment and sexual wall sexual harassment, and also
Suzanne Wertheim:comments that I'm just going to say here, because I think we're
Suzanne Wertheim:in group everyone who cares enough to listen to this
Suzanne Wertheim:already, I think is bought in. So racist comments, sexist
Suzanne Wertheim:comments, homophobic comments, these things are quite frequent
Suzanne Wertheim:in the workplace. And I consult with employment lawyers and I
Suzanne Wertheim:run continuing legal education courses on bias for lawyers,
Suzanne Wertheim:right. So I'm, I'm soaking in this stuff will often get
Suzanne Wertheim:dismissed by managers and HR. Right? So somebody comes in
Suzanne Wertheim:reports and says, Hmm, I've been keeping a list here are things
Suzanne Wertheim:that my teammates are saying. And also people with perceptible
Suzanne Wertheim:disabilities. My goodness, do people feel very entitled to ask
Suzanne Wertheim:the most intrusive questions, including about their sex lives?
Suzanne Wertheim:But like the most interesting questions, I'm like, That can't
Suzanne Wertheim:be happening. Here's my I'm not perceptively disabled, right. So
Suzanne Wertheim:I don't get those kinds of questions. I get a lot of short
Suzanne Wertheim:jokes, because I'm very short. And I'm like, Yeah, okay. But
Suzanne Wertheim:um, I'm not short enough for it to be a problem beyond reaching
Suzanne Wertheim:things in a market, you know. But people are saying things
Suzanne Wertheim:that I'm like, This is so egregious, and it was sent to
Suzanne Wertheim:you this year. So what happens is very consistently, people
Suzanne Wertheim:with power are protecting people with power by using softening
Suzanne Wertheim:language. And let me talk about power, because there's two kinds
Suzanne Wertheim:of power and I've had some autistic workshop attendees be
Suzanne Wertheim:like, I don't see power the way other people do. Can you unpack
Suzanne Wertheim:this for me? So let me do that. For artistic viewers and
Suzanne Wertheim:listeners. Power can be institutional, like you're a
Suzanne Wertheim:high ranked person in the org chart, or you have power over
Suzanne Wertheim:people who report to you select a manager, a director of Vice
Suzanne Wertheim:President and CEO. But power also comes from dominant group
Suzanne Wertheim:membership for social power. So how many, the more dominant
Suzanne Wertheim:groups you belong to the more social power you have. So in
Suzanne Wertheim:that Brock Turner case, Brock Turner was a white cisgendered,
Suzanne Wertheim:heterosexual, presumably, man, who was an athlete at an elite
Suzanne Wertheim:college, right? So that's seven, I just counted up seven, high
Suzanne Wertheim:status groups that he was a member of.
Kim Clark:So there's the ones that he's able bodied, so that's
Kim Clark:eight
Suzanne Wertheim:is able bodied, and able bodied. So and,
Suzanne Wertheim:and conventionally attractive, right? So all of these things
Suzanne Wertheim:show, suddenly, all the perspective taking of the white
Suzanne Wertheim:cisgendered, heterosexual male judge, all of that affinity
Suzanne Wertheim:bias, all that perspective taking goes to him and
Suzanne Wertheim:protecting him and wanting to see the good in him, because we
Suzanne Wertheim:come from the starting point, that white people are inherently
Suzanne Wertheim:good, or that male people are inherently good. So you hear
Suzanne Wertheim:softening language, like after a very egregious thing. Well, he's
Suzanne Wertheim:a good guy, or Oh, boys will be boys, or he's just showing his
Suzanne Wertheim:admiration for you. Those are like sexual harassment things,
Suzanne Wertheim:or they're just curious, or they're so young, or they don't
Suzanne Wertheim:know better, you should educate them. And it's like, We're the
Suzanne Wertheim:same age, right? People come to me, I run these interviews,
Suzanne Wertheim:right? Let me explain it part, my data comes in part from data
Suzanne Wertheim:that's available to everybody through the internet, or I see
Suzanne Wertheim:the headlines you do or I follow a lot of people on social media
Suzanne Wertheim:who aren't members of my group, so I can get insight to those.
Suzanne Wertheim:But people, people, I run these employee experience interviews,
Suzanne Wertheim:which don't have leading questions at all. So instead of
Suzanne Wertheim:saying, Have you ever experienced bias at work, I'm
Suzanne Wertheim:like, has there ever been a time that you felt like people were
Suzanne Wertheim:marking you lower than your actual status? And then the
Suzanne Wertheim:stories come spilling it? Was there ever a time that you felt
Suzanne Wertheim:you were central, but someone seem to be pushing you to the
Suzanne Wertheim:outside? Right, you know, has there ever been a time that you
Suzanne Wertheim:tried to say something and you felt like it was ignored? Well,
Suzanne Wertheim:guess what people from these non dominant groups, the stories
Suzanne Wertheim:spill out of them. And so so many people report that there's
Suzanne Wertheim:insult to injury, Injury is their colleagues say bad things
Suzanne Wertheim:to them problematic language. Insult is they report it to a
Suzanne Wertheim:manager or an HR person and say, here's a problem. And they're
Suzanne Wertheim:told it's not a problem by using softening language. So that's a
Suzanne Wertheim:thing to be again, the gaslighting that disconfirmation
Suzanne Wertheim:and invalidation where you're like, This feels bad to me, this
Suzanne Wertheim:feels like a problem. And then somebody with power says to you,
Suzanne Wertheim:that's not a problem. And why then and then insult insult to
Suzanne Wertheim:injury or injury on top of injury. Why are you playing the
Suzanne Wertheim:race card? Why are you being so emotional? Oh, women are so
Suzanne Wertheim:hysterical. You're always playing the gender card. This is
Suzanne Wertheim:just how it is in a workplace. You need to toughen up. Why are
Suzanne Wertheim:you always the victim? Right? So it's this. So I had to come up
Suzanne Wertheim:with softening language and inflating language, which we
Suzanne Wertheim:don't really have time to talk about to talk about. What's the
Suzanne Wertheim:bias that happens when we talk about bias, right? It's like a
Suzanne Wertheim:layer upon layer. It's one thing when the bias happens, then
Suzanne Wertheim:people try to say, Oh, this bias thing is happening, we should
Suzanne Wertheim:talk about it. And then they're shut down by being told that
Suzanne Wertheim:they're the problem. And that what they're seeing as a problem
Suzanne Wertheim:isn't actually a problem. It's just one two punch of softening
Suzanne Wertheim:language and inflating language. No, you're the problem. And so
Suzanne Wertheim:guess what people leave. And that's why you see so many, for
Suzanne Wertheim:example, black women, starting up their own firms. I love to
Suzanne Wertheim:start at my own firm. I'm like, I'm not dealing with this.
Kim Clark:Yeah, yeah. But yeah, the, when I worked at GoDaddy,
Kim Clark:that was research that we had done of who is starting up new
Kim Clark:businesses, and it's educated, over educated almost, it's such
Kim Clark:additional degrees of education. Black women, they're the ones
Kim Clark:starting up their own businesses, because they're not,
Kim Clark:they're not going to be in the, in the carpet, you know,
Kim Clark:especially the corporate atmosphere anymore, so And who
Kim Clark:can blame, you know, blame them. And I love partnering with them,
Kim Clark:you know, in this work, because they're out doing their own
Kim Clark:thing as well. So we can come together and joint ventures. So
Kim Clark:I would love for you to introduce the framework that you
Kim Clark:introduced in your book, the inclusive language, Field Guide,
Kim Clark:great title, and thank you, and, and talk to us through a lens of
Kim Clark:of this framework applying to people who are in corporate
Kim Clark:communications, internal communications, marketing
Kim Clark:brands, and how we need to apply this framework to our work on a
Kim Clark:regular basis.
Suzanne Wertheim:So this book, specifically has corporate comms
Suzanne Wertheim:in its targets, right? Because it my clients who were like, Oh,
Suzanne Wertheim:my God, like you have to help me. Not only does the framework
Suzanne Wertheim:is the framework designed to help corporate comms, I designed
Suzanne Wertheim:a whole checklist that you can use that's in the back of the
Suzanne Wertheim:book and the resources section that you can use to create your
Suzanne Wertheim:own checklist. So I created a checklist template, which is
Suzanne Wertheim:kind of a weird mouthful. But I'm like, you go through, I'm
Suzanne Wertheim:like, I'm going to hold your hand through this whole process.
Suzanne Wertheim:And I go through all the relevant dimensions of human
Suzanne Wertheim:identity that corporate comms people need to be thinking
Suzanne Wertheim:about. And the checklist. Did I really include this? Did I
Suzanne Wertheim:include this? Did I make sure this happened? So just for
Suzanne Wertheim:corporate comms people?
Unknown:I got you on? Excellent. It's in the back of
Unknown:the book. Yeah. But the framework is because people kept
Unknown:coming to me and saying,
Suzanne Wertheim:there's this list, but then I don't know how
Suzanne Wertheim:to memorize it. And this one feels like it's already out of
Suzanne Wertheim:date. And then, but I'm in groups. So can I use this word?
Suzanne Wertheim:And then how do I apply it to this category, like, Okay, this
Suzanne Wertheim:is about race. But now I'm confused about disability. And
Suzanne Wertheim:so what I realized is that using identity as a starting point for
Suzanne Wertheim:inclusive language, was self defeating. Even though identity
Suzanne Wertheim:is a core component of what needs to be kept in mind as
Suzanne Wertheim:you're using an inclusion lens for your comms. Identity is key.
Suzanne Wertheim:But I actually learned that it shouldn't be the starting point.
Suzanne Wertheim:So using my toolkit of linguistic anthropology, I went
Suzanne Wertheim:and I looked back on literally 25 years from when I was a wee
Suzanne Wertheim:little grad student, 25 years of research and data, dating back
Suzanne Wertheim:to classes it aid in the 90s, to courses that I would teach and
Suzanne Wertheim:how things would land with undergrads. And what would they
Suzanne Wertheim:write to me seven years later that they still remembered, and
Suzanne Wertheim:thinking about all the different languages that I had researched,
Suzanne Wertheim:and places I live, all the access to other cultures and
Suzanne Wertheim:languages that I've gotten from anthropology, conferences,
Suzanne Wertheim:anthropology books, etc. And I created a framework that's
Suzanne Wertheim:granular and based on behaviors, behaviors that are meant to be
Suzanne Wertheim:universal. So my book, my publisher said, Can you please
Suzanne Wertheim:focus it on American English? I was like, man, okay, I'll do it.
Suzanne Wertheim:I'll do it. But the book isn't only and I have a little apology
Suzanne Wertheim:in there. I'm like, hi, if you're reading this and you're
Suzanne Wertheim:not in the US, you're going to have to do some translation
Suzanne Wertheim:work. I'm sorry. Like, let me acknowledge American English is
Suzanne Wertheim:not the world. Us is not everywhere, right. But it is
Suzanne Wertheim:designed to be cross linguistically and cross
Suzanne Wertheim:culturally valid. So inclusive language actually boils down to
Suzanne Wertheim:inclusive behavior that involves language, right? So I've talked
Suzanne Wertheim:about my first principle is reflect reality, which PS means
Suzanne Wertheim:you're often coming in sounding a lot harsher than you think a
Suzanne Wertheim:lot of people who don't understand inclusive language
Suzanne Wertheim:are like, Oh, you gotta soften it. It's got to be roses and
Suzanne Wertheim:teddy bears. And I don't even know what soft things are. But
Suzanne Wertheim:you know what I mean? And I'm like, No, say rape, say police
Suzanne Wertheim:murder, say, you know, I'm like, say the thing. So for me reflect
Suzanne Wertheim:reality is my most important one, because it undergirds
Suzanne Wertheim:everything. And it's saying, reality is being masked now. And
Suzanne Wertheim:the more we can actually reflect what the reality is not just for
Suzanne Wertheim:people with power, like for all kinds of people, the better it's
Suzanne Wertheim:going to be. And then from that, the next most important one is
Suzanne Wertheim:show respect, which I think should be pretty obvious.
Suzanne Wertheim:correlated with show respect, is draw people in principle three.
Suzanne Wertheim:So they're the same thing. Make sure you're marking people at
Suzanne Wertheim:the right level, be respectful of them, not demeaning, and draw
Suzanne Wertheim:people in stop pushing people out and marginalizing them. Then
Suzanne Wertheim:we have incorporate other perspectives, which ties into
Suzanne Wertheim:reflect reality, but is important enough to be its own
Suzanne Wertheim:thing. How many perspectives? Am I including in this piece of
Suzanne Wertheim:communication? Is there something that I'm forgetting
Suzanne Wertheim:that would make this inappropriate? Remind me that I
Suzanne Wertheim:want to talk about the h&m Hoodie at the end of this? I
Suzanne Wertheim:don't know if you remember it? Yes. Then my last two are number
Suzanne Wertheim:five, prevent a ratio. Because there are so many people, kinds
Suzanne Wertheim:of people and kinds of experiences that have just been
Suzanne Wertheim:erased. In the book. One of the examples I give is indigenous
Suzanne Wertheim:history is erased in so many ways. First off, when was this
Suzanne Wertheim:town founded? It was founded in 1858? No people have lived here
Suzanne Wertheim:for 10s of 1000s of years. Like no like, like no like a just
Suzanne Wertheim:know, B. I see all the time. The natives used to the love the
Suzanne Wertheim:natives, maybe let's have the local natives used to I'm like,
Suzanne Wertheim:Ah, they have specific nation names. And we've got cultural
Suzanne Wertheim:language history differences. You don't just say the natives
Suzanne Wertheim:to mean, so many different groups of people, you know. So
Suzanne Wertheim:there are all these ways that eraser happens. And I'm like,
Suzanne Wertheim:you know, and then and then the third part of arratia for
Suzanne Wertheim:natives is people act like they're all gone, you know, so I
Suzanne Wertheim:used to do volunteer work up the road at Berkeley, with people,
Suzanne Wertheim:for example, alone. He's from Santa Cruz, I remember some, and
Suzanne Wertheim:from with California, natives from all over the state who
Suzanne Wertheim:would come in and they would tell me so many stories, and
Suzanne Wertheim:people are like, they're like, Wait, you're not all dead? You
Suzanne Wertheim:live here. And people like yeah, like, people have been here a
Suzanne Wertheim:long time, like, yeah, like I was here. And I am here. So
Suzanne Wertheim:these kinds of arratia are deeply painful, but also create
Suzanne Wertheim:very bad mental models, like they give us such biased mental
Suzanne Wertheim:models, because how are you going to make good judgments? If
Suzanne Wertheim:the data, the communications data that's been put in your
Suzanne Wertheim:head, what's been communicated to you through media? What's
Suzanne Wertheim:that telling you? And then my last one is recognized pain
Suzanne Wertheim:points, which ties in very well with your book. Because what
Suzanne Wertheim:we're both talking about is, let me give you an example. I gave a
Suzanne Wertheim:workshop at a very techie tech company like techie tech, right.
Suzanne Wertheim:And there were two black people there. And one of them brought
Suzanne Wertheim:me in, and the other was sitting at a table in the front. And
Suzanne Wertheim:then the room was filled with Oh, and one of them was my co
Suzanne Wertheim:host, my co facilitator, so three black people. So a
Suzanne Wertheim:stakeholder, a person who actually showed up because he
Suzanne Wertheim:worked there in HR, and then and then my, my co facilitator, and
Suzanne Wertheim:one of the things we talked about was how problematic the
Suzanne Wertheim:use of articulate can be, when applied as opposed to compliment
Suzanne Wertheim:to black. And I break this down in my book, I'm not going to go
Suzanne Wertheim:into details, but we had them discussing articulate. And so a
Suzanne Wertheim:table of all white male engineers was very frustrated,
Suzanne Wertheim:maybe kind of angry, and they said, We had to Google this. How
Suzanne Wertheim:in the world are we supposed to know that this is a problem? We
Suzanne Wertheim:don't have any black people on our team. We don't have black
Suzanne Wertheim:people in our neighborhoods. We don't have black people who were
Suzanne Wertheim:friends with how are we supposed to know they said angrily. And
Suzanne Wertheim:so it was so hard for us. You like we exchanged a look, me and
Suzanne Wertheim:my black co facilitator, right? And I'm like, Ah, I'm like,
Suzanne Wertheim:isn't this pointing out that C inclusive language and inclusive
Suzanne Wertheim:comms are a series of trapdoors that you keep on going down to
Suzanne Wertheim:the ground truth, which is that it's not good that you have no
Suzanne Wertheim:black teammates, coworkers, bosses, neighbors, friends. And
Suzanne Wertheim:so even though you don't, isn't it your responsibility to know
Suzanne Wertheim:about this stuff? Is is the fact that your life is a product of
Suzanne Wertheim:systemic racism and ways that people have been denied
Suzanne Wertheim:opportunities and so many points of their life? Is that a reason
Suzanne Wertheim:for you to just sit there comfortably? So I think of it I
Suzanne Wertheim:don't know. Have that movie, but I think he's a little heavy
Suzanne Wertheim:handed that nice Korean director who did Snowpiercer. But
Suzanne Wertheim:Snowpiercer is a train based version of that where different
Suzanne Wertheim:railroad cards have cars have people with different levels of
Suzanne Wertheim:comfort, effort, good treatment, negative treatment experiences,
Suzanne Wertheim:and there a bunch of people who are living a very comfortable,
Suzanne Wertheim:luxurious, happy life, because they're being served by people
Suzanne Wertheim:who are in most misery. Right. And so again, it's heavy handed,
Suzanne Wertheim:but
Unknown:but it's also a very reasonable allegory. Mm
Kim Clark:hmm. All right. So I'm gonna remind you about the
Kim Clark:h&m hoodie, example. And then I'm gonna give you our last
Kim Clark:couple of questions to round up. This has been an incredible
Kim Clark:conversation. And hopefully, it really guides people into giving
Kim Clark:them confidence to say, you know, you know, whenever they
Kim Clark:have the push back, or it gives them more of a depth of an
Kim Clark:understanding and a scientific base for the purpose for
Kim Clark:inclusive language. And so I'm so grateful for your time and
Kim Clark:expertise and this book that you're giving. So tell us about
Kim Clark:the h&m hoodie, and then I'll follow up with a couple of
Kim Clark:closing common questions.
Suzanne Wertheim:So h&m, pre pandemic, way pre pennant is
Suzanne Wertheim:eight years ago ish, put out a hoodie for children that said,
Suzanne Wertheim:cutest monkey in the jungle. And then they pictured a young black
Suzanne Wertheim:boy wearing it, I remember that. And so this is incorporate other
Suzanne Wertheim:perspectives and recognized pain points in it. So I looked at
Suzanne Wertheim:that when I look at that and other marketing fails that bring
Suzanne Wertheim:down the wrath of the internet. I'm like, buy my book that you
Suzanne Wertheim:could avoid this, or you didn't have a book at the time. Um, I
Suzanne Wertheim:don't think that nobody knew that this was a problem. And PS,
Suzanne Wertheim:this was in Sweden, where there's not that many black
Suzanne Wertheim:people. So I'm kind of like, I think someone may have been a
Suzanne Wertheim:bad faith actor in that. But part of inclusive language and
Suzanne Wertheim:part of the stuff that you're talking about in your book as
Suzanne Wertheim:well is having the safety and these guidelines in this
Suzanne Wertheim:framework to have a discussion. There's no way people didn't
Suzanne Wertheim:know that that was a problem. But I'm sure because fashion can
Suzanne Wertheim:be so hierarchical, and so racist, based on stories,
Suzanne Wertheim:friends of mine who worked for luxury brands have told me, I'm
Suzanne Wertheim:sure that there are people in that room who were like, this
Suzanne Wertheim:should not happen. But they didn't feel safe enough to talk
Suzanne Wertheim:about it. And there wasn't a pre established framework, let's
Suzanne Wertheim:make sure we're doing these things. If they had a checklist
Suzanne Wertheim:that would never have happened. So that's the h&m hooding, when
Suzanne Wertheim:you don't follow principles of inclusive language, your brand
Suzanne Wertheim:can take a hit, your stock prices can go down, you can lose
Suzanne Wertheim:clients, you can get I know they say all press is good press. But
Suzanne Wertheim:not all press is good press. I think there was a rapper who was
Suzanne Wertheim:going to do a collaboration with them, and he dropped out. Right.
Suzanne Wertheim:So like, that's just a few words. But it was done badly.
Suzanne Wertheim:And it violated several principles of inclusive
Suzanne Wertheim:language. And they really paid a price for a time I'm sure h&m is
Suzanne Wertheim:doing fine now. And
Kim Clark:you and I have talked about this, that there is such a
Kim Clark:complimentary package between your book that's coming out, and
Kim Clark:what our book is about the conscious communicator the fine
Kim Clark:art of not saying stupid shit. And so, you know, so if you're
Kim Clark:in in communications, marketing, brand, content creation, these
Kim Clark:are the two books that you bring together as part of your
Kim Clark:package. If you're listening to this pre October 3 2023.
Kim Clark:Suzanne's book is available for preorder if you're available, if
Kim Clark:you're listening to this post, October 3 2023, then you can get
Kim Clark:it anywhere you buy your book, support your local independent
Kim Clark:bookstores as well. So Suzanne, I've got this question, I like
Kim Clark:to ask everybody and I'm super curious of what your response is
Kim Clark:going to be.
Unknown:What does it sound like? To communicate like you
Unknown:give a damn.
Suzanne Wertheim:I mean, from this perspective, it really is
Suzanne Wertheim:the whole purpose of my book is follow the principles of
Suzanne Wertheim:inclusive language. And so the secret behind following the
Suzanne Wertheim:principles of inclusive language, which I just laid out,
Suzanne Wertheim:there's only six of them. I think they're very logical. I
Suzanne Wertheim:think they're very intuitive. They're very straightforward.
Suzanne Wertheim:I've run them by people. They're like, yeah, sure, no problem.
Suzanne Wertheim:The secret behind it, is that you got to put in some effort,
Suzanne Wertheim:right? So your book and my book work together, because they lay
Suzanne Wertheim:out specifically, what effort is required for people to do like,
Suzanne Wertheim:like, sometimes people get called out and they hear do the
Suzanne Wertheim:work, and then they're like, but what I don't, I don't know what
Suzanne Wertheim:to do, like a lot of people and like, is it the internet's job
Suzanne Wertheim:to educate everybody? No. I'm like, okay, it'll be my job. You
Suzanne Wertheim:were like, okay, it'll be our job. Right? Well, we'll educate
Suzanne Wertheim:you. So So doing the work means, like that example, I just gave
Suzanne Wertheim:you with those with those white men who were like, I don't know,
Suzanne Wertheim:black people, how am I supposed to know this? Well figure out
Suzanne Wertheim:what your areas are, where you've been not given enough
Suzanne Wertheim:information and start getting that information. So in the book
Suzanne Wertheim:I have, by the way, I have exercises. So I've got those six
Suzanne Wertheim:principles. And what I say in the book is, you wouldn't read a
Suzanne Wertheim:book about French, if you don't speak French, you wouldn't spend
Suzanne Wertheim:three hours reading a book on French close it and be like,
Suzanne Wertheim:alright, I speak French. Now, we know that to acquire a foreign
Suzanne Wertheim:language, you have to practice and it's incremental change in
Suzanne Wertheim:practice over time, PS inclusive language skills are very similar
Suzanne Wertheim:to foreign language skills, you're moving into a different
Suzanne Wertheim:space, acquiring new habits, sometimes new syntax with
Suzanne Wertheim:pronouns, right, you're going to use things syntactically
Suzanne Wertheim:different than you did before. And so how can you do that? The
Suzanne Wertheim:answer is through practice. And so at the end of each principal
Suzanne Wertheim:chapter, I give five quick wins that people can start
Suzanne Wertheim:implementing right away, stop saying master bathroom, and
Suzanne Wertheim:start saying primary bathroom or main bathroom. Stop saying
Suzanne Wertheim:oriental, here's what you can use instead. Right? So those are
Suzanne Wertheim:some quick wins. But then there are other things that take more
Suzanne Wertheim:time to build up. The idea is that if you build up the habits,
Suzanne Wertheim:then when the thing happens, when the crisis happens, you've
Suzanne Wertheim:been talking about having the integrity have being deliberate,
Suzanne Wertheim:having things already figured out. For me, it's the crisis
Suzanne Wertheim:happens, you don't have to learn from scratch, right? Everything
Suzanne Wertheim:about that group, because you're like, I already know about
Suzanne Wertheim:issues facing transgender people. That's right, I already
Suzanne Wertheim:know about issues facing undocumented immigrants. That's
Suzanne Wertheim:right, I already know about gender bias at work, because
Suzanne Wertheim:you've been putting in the work. So to me, giving a damn means
Suzanne Wertheim:incorporating this into honestly, your daily habits,
Suzanne Wertheim:there's some things I'm like spend five minutes a day, doing
Suzanne Wertheim:this kind of cleanup, I would say, as advice, one of the top
Suzanne Wertheim:things I would recommend is diversifying your social media.
Suzanne Wertheim:So a lot of people through affinity bias, just have very
Suzanne Wertheim:straight and narrow social media. But it's the most
Suzanne Wertheim:fantastic way, as you know, to eavesdrop on conversations, and
Suzanne Wertheim:learn without draining people. So so many people from
Suzanne Wertheim:marginalized groups are asked to do like emotional labor, and
Suzanne Wertheim:intellectual labor, teach me but don't make me mad, is this
Suzanne Wertheim:terrible conundrum that so many people have, and they're like,
Suzanne Wertheim:but I'm tired. I talked about this in my ally Skills Workshop
Suzanne Wertheim:that I'm about to give to a big tech client at 7am tomorrow. But
Suzanne Wertheim:I'm like, you know, like, you gotta gotta, you got to know
Suzanne Wertheim:your you got to know your stuff. Don't ask people who have been
Suzanne Wertheim:injured, to educate you on how they were injured, please tend
Suzanne Wertheim:to them and educate yourself on the injury and how to prevent
Suzanne Wertheim:that don't don't make the injured person be the educator
Suzanne Wertheim:on here's not to have not not to hit not to injure me again. And
Suzanne Wertheim:PS Don't get mad at me as I tell you about it. So, yeah, that's
Kim Clark:set up to fail. So you know, a big part of
Kim Clark:everything that you've been talking about is one of the
Kim Clark:things that I share all the time on this podcast, which is
Kim Clark:language leads to behavior, straight forward, very clear
Kim Clark:power of language, power structures, the importance of
Kim Clark:the power of language and how we're using it. And being really
Kim Clark:knowledgeable on inclusive language, make sure to get your
Kim Clark:book, the inclusive language Field Guide coming out October
Kim Clark:3 2023. How can people follow you and continue to learn from
Kim Clark:you?
Suzanne Wertheim:So the two main ways that people alike are
Suzanne Wertheim:to follow me on LinkedIn, so we've talked about my LinkedIn
Suzanne Wertheim:posts, I have posts that go viral about every two months,
Suzanne Wertheim:because what I do is when I see people talking about a thing,
Suzanne Wertheim:oh, Chad TPTs causing these problems, or Oh, Christian
Suzanne Wertheim:bells, dinner party was kind of white, or I go or why was this
Suzanne Wertheim:one black player reamed for making the same gesture that the
Suzanne Wertheim:white player made? Why are we only so what I do is like, those
Suzanne Wertheim:are just three that went viral in the last whatever, six
Suzanne Wertheim:months. I take topical things and I apply these frameworks
Suzanne Wertheim:that I've worked out to them. So they become very clear. And I
Suzanne Wertheim:think people can see the patterns in a way so they feel
Suzanne Wertheim:more grounded and calm down. So follow me on LinkedIn is the
Suzanne Wertheim:number one and then number two, is sign up for my newsletter,
Suzanne Wertheim:which comes out twice a month, once a month, I give away a free
Suzanne Wertheim:article that analyzes something topical, so the most recent one
Suzanne Wertheim:was about cisgender why does this sound and feel weird as a
Suzanne Wertheim:as a prefix, but why should we use it anyway? And I went
Suzanne Wertheim:through the linguistic reasons why when compared it to an
Suzanne Wertheim:acoustic guitar and an analog watch and then people like, Oh,
Suzanne Wertheim:they're like, oh, then that makes sense. Like acoustic
Suzanne Wertheim:guitar sounded weird when we say started it, and now it's
Suzanne Wertheim:perfectly reasonable. And then, once a month, I send out an
Suzanne Wertheim:advice column where readers email me questions that get
Suzanne Wertheim:anonymized. And they're like, I got a question. I'm like, I'll
Suzanne Wertheim:answer it for free. So you get free tips and advice, you can go
Suzanne Wertheim:to my website, which is Suzanne worth time.com. And there is a
Suzanne Wertheim:sign up, right there, don't sell information. We have a very long
Suzanne Wertheim:privacy policy, literally all we do is email out twice a month.
Kim Clark:Yeah, you're pretty safe whenever you share your
Kim Clark:email with anyone. And diversity, equity and inclusion
Kim Clark:are gonna really be very protective of your privacy, for
Kim Clark:sure. And we'll put all of this in the show notes as well, to
Kim Clark:make sure that people have access to your information and
Kim Clark:everything that you just shared. What a pleasure, what an honor
Kim Clark:to have you. I mean, you are like the perfect guest for
Kim Clark:communicate like you give a damn, thank you for the
Kim Clark:generosity that you share on a regular basis through your
Kim Clark:newsletters and your, your q&a sessions. And now this book,
Kim Clark:congratulations on the book, and I can't wait since I've got a
Kim Clark:sneak peek of it. I can tell you as communicators and content
Kim Clark:creators, you gotta have this book, get it with the conscious
Kim Clark:communicator, and you've got all the packages that you need to
Kim Clark:apply to be the inclusive communicator that you see
Kim Clark:yourself to be. You have everything that you need. And
Kim Clark:you have a couple of people right here that have your backs.
Kim Clark:All right, thank you so much for being with us.
Unknown:In the plant my pleasure, genuinely
